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Congress has just voted to create a special subcommittee to investigate planned parenthoodghazi, welcome to your government.
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# ? Oct 7, 2015 23:29 |
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# ? May 27, 2024 03:50 |
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zoux posted:Let's not pretend like suicide by gun isn't orders of magnitude more lethal than other method. If your suicide attempt is a cry for help, but you use a gun, you ain't getting help. There are fundamental limits of the effectiveness of restricting the means of access to suicide, which is why Japan and Korea have much higher suicide rates than the United States despite extremely strict gun control.
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# ? Oct 7, 2015 23:30 |
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quote:
Except, until Obama, it was determined that any data collection that could be used for advocacy fell under this rule.
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# ? Oct 7, 2015 23:31 |
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Nevermind
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# ? Oct 7, 2015 23:31 |
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Dead Reckoning posted:There are fundamental limits of the effectiveness of restricting the means of access to suicide, which is why Japan and Korea have much higher suicide rates than the United States despite extremely strict gun control. Fewer guns = fewer deaths from suicides. Full stop.
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# ? Oct 7, 2015 23:33 |
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Badger of Basra posted:Hillary opposes TPP: She waited until the deal was completed before saying so, which sounds to me like it's an attempt to curry favor from the left without actually hurting the deal.
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# ? Oct 7, 2015 23:34 |
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Trabisnikof posted:Except, until Obama, it was determined that any data collection that could be used for advocacy fell under this rule. RuanGacho posted:Advocacy apparently being that a trend line is going up I guess?
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# ? Oct 7, 2015 23:34 |
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Fojar38 posted:She waited until the deal was completed before saying so, which sounds to me like it's an attempt to curry favor from the left without actually hurting the deal. Or she waited until the deal was finalized so that she could oppose the actual deal not a leaked draft? I seriously am amazed at the arguments that either Clinton should have opposed it without knowing its content or shouldn't oppose it because she won't make a red line about it.
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# ? Oct 7, 2015 23:35 |
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Gravel Gravy posted:Care to elaborate? I don't see what I could elaborate upon. I appreciate that Hillary weighed this issue based on information available and came to a considered decision after an appropriate period of time. I prefer politicians do this rather than oppose an issue because it wins points with their base or does so based upon ideology. It's bad when the Republicans do that, and it's also bad when Democrats (and independents!) do so as well. To believe otherwise is hypocrisy. Which is fine in many cases, I don't necessarily have a problem with hypocrisy or weighing pragmatism over principle, but at least I own up to it. Now, I appreciate Sanders for long supporting something like gay marriage as it speaks well to his principles. And that is valuable as well, I'm not discounting that, but when it comes to who I'll vote for? I'll go for someone who weighs issues on their content and merit and comes to a considered decision rather than someone whose ideology blinds them to potential solutions. Even if I share similar values (which I don't), of if I agree with the policy, or some of the policies produced by adhering to that ideology (which I do). So, tl;dr: I'd rather a politician who weighs each individual issue on their merits, rather than on blind ideological opposition to free trade and capitalism.
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# ? Oct 7, 2015 23:38 |
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Dead Reckoning posted:Citation needed, since the dataset in the app includes more years of Bush being President than Obama. quote:Two years ago this week, President Obama ordered the U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention to get back to studying “the causes of gun violence.”
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# ? Oct 7, 2015 23:38 |
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The Iron Rose posted:I don't see what I could elaborate upon. I appreciate that Hillary weighed this issue based on information available and came to a considered decision after an appropriate period of time. I prefer politicians do this rather than oppose an issue because it wins points with their base or does so based upon ideology. Nah i meant the other poster. For some reason they took the meaning a tad different.
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# ? Oct 7, 2015 23:41 |
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FAUXTON posted:Uh, they kind of took over a couple decently-sized cities and steamrolled a bunch of other militia groups a while back. The answer is that the Mideast isn't some stone-age hellhole and even IS knows that pickup trucks are going to be more useful than sedans for their war rig needs. If someone is shipping cars in and selling them to ISIS then they have FinCEN to investigate the financial trail so they don't need to ask a loving manufacturer what happened to a vehicle after they sent it to a dealer. Granted, Toyota doesn't make guns so expecting some kind of documentation after release to dealers is somewhat reasonable but I'm gonna call it now and say that any cars they're having shipped in are being bought by straw buyers who are slipping through financial intelligence nets in the countries they inhabit. They ought to be asking the individual dealers and banks for their books. How do you think FinCEN (which is part of Treasury, meaning they're probably the ones who actually talked to Toyota) figure out which individual dealers to talk to? Do you think maybe they ask Toyota about which dealer received specific VINs, and for other details of how vehicles are distributed?
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# ? Oct 7, 2015 23:43 |
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...that article and the quotes you specifically highlighted don't come anywhere close to supporting your assertion, or even address it.
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# ? Oct 7, 2015 23:43 |
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LGD posted:...that article and the quotes you specifically highlighted don't come anywhere close to supporting your assertion, or even address it. My assertion was that the CDC was prevented from researching gun violence and collecting data to support those studies. As the article states.
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# ? Oct 7, 2015 23:44 |
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Trabisnikof posted:Or she waited until the deal was finalized so that she could oppose the actual deal not a leaked draft? Maybe but considering that she was one of the founders of the idea of the agreement in the first place I think that she just waited until her opposition wouldn't be excessively damaging to it. Most Democrats were already going to oppose the bill anyway, it's Republicans that Obama needs to win over and he will probably succeed considering fast track.
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# ? Oct 7, 2015 23:45 |
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Trabisnikof posted:My assertion was that the CDC was prevented from research gun violence and collecting data to support those studies. As the article states. Trabisnikof posted:Except, until Obama, it was determined that any data collection that could be used for advocacy fell under this rule.
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# ? Oct 7, 2015 23:47 |
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Fojar38 posted:Maybe but considering that she was one of the founders of the idea of the agreement in the first place I think that she just waited until her opposition wouldn't be excessively damaging to it. Most Democrats were already going to oppose the bill anyway, it's Republicans that Obama needs to win over and he will probably succeed considering fast track. Or maybe the provision she advocated for the entire time (currency manipulation) wasn't included in the final treaty and that was a make or break part of it?
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# ? Oct 7, 2015 23:47 |
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LGD posted:No, the claim you were specifically challenged on very much wasn't. This isn't even ambiguous. Uh, the rule very much changed under Obama....
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# ? Oct 7, 2015 23:49 |
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Fojar38 posted:Maybe but considering that she was one of the founders of the idea of the agreement in the first place I think that she just waited until her opposition wouldn't be excessively damaging to it. Man, that's a neat trick Hillary pulled off, getting the Bush Administration to push for her idea.
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# ? Oct 7, 2015 23:49 |
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zoux posted:Fewer guns = fewer deaths from suicides. Full stop. The CDC chose not to give grants for firearms research, Congress didn't ban them. They still collected data on causes of death, since that's one of their mandates, which you specifically claimed they didn't do because of partisan meddling. Also, Congress deciding not to earmark funds for CDC studies on gun violence is not the same as the CDC being banned from doing those studies.
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# ? Oct 7, 2015 23:49 |
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QuoProQuid posted:I can't believe I am typing this sentence, but the Freedom Caucus just endorsed Webster for Speaker of the House. These stupid motherfuckers are never going to agree on a speaker are they
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# ? Oct 8, 2015 00:04 |
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http://www.msnbc.com/rachel-maddow-show/bushs-fed-chairman-gives-the-gop?cid=sm_fb_maddow Benanke joins the ever-growing ranks of "calls self independent, votes straight-ticket republican"
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# ? Oct 8, 2015 00:08 |
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nachos posted:
For entertainment value, I hope not.
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# ? Oct 8, 2015 00:15 |
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BI NOW GAY LATER posted:For entertainment value, I hope not. These deep red state freedom caucus members need some sort of victory. They may eventually agree on a speaker but I'm betting it won't be McCarthy. They've staked their position and if they back out now they'll get primaried.
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# ? Oct 8, 2015 00:19 |
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It's a violation of the Second Amendment to the United States Constitution to try to restrict in any way an American Citizen's right to suicide by firearm. Full Stop.
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# ? Oct 8, 2015 00:21 |
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zoux posted:Let's not pretend like suicide by gun isn't orders of magnitude more lethal than other method. If your suicide attempt is a cry for help, but you use a gun, you ain't getting help. This is America, we very much pretend that rocks and guns are equally lethal and that murderers/those who want to commit suicide will do it regardless of the tools at their disposal. Now if a sick person wants to commit suicide, we get the government involved.
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# ? Oct 8, 2015 00:22 |
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Popular Thug Drink posted:It's a violation of the Second Amendment to the United States Constitution to try to restrict in any way an American Citizen's right to suicide by firearm. Full Stop. Suicides also shouldn't count in the gun death totals for reasons.
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# ? Oct 8, 2015 00:22 |
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Dead Reckoning posted:Can you explain why Japan and South Korea have higher suicides rates than the U.S. then? Means of suicide are often culturally driven, but suicide itself exists across cultures. If you magic-wanded away all guns tomorrow, you'd probably see a dip, but it would trend back up as people moved on to insecticide or exit bags or whatever. More to the point, why focus on guns when more general suicide prevention strategies and mental health treatment are more likely to be effective and agnostic to method? Clinically depressed suicidal people aren't rational actors who compare shop suicide methods. Suicide attempts are often spontaneous and committed with what's at hand. That's why less than 2 percent of pill attempts are non fatal, most people simply don't have enough pills in their house to lethally overdose. But if there's a gun handy it's a different story. So if they have a firearm available in their house and grab that, they are 85% likely to fatally injure themselves. In fact, that's exactly what happened to my 18 year old cousin last year, who got into a fight with his girlfriend and suddenly in the middle of it went and got his dad's, my uncle's, .22 pistol and killed himself with it. We don't know why he did it, but if there wasn't a gun in the house that day he'd still be alive. So to answer your question, I don't have to explain why cultural mores towards suicide wouldn't actully reduce suicide deaths, because suicide rates in America could remain unchanged. Every person that reached for a gun that wasn't there, and came to their senses later, or tried to hang themselves an failed, or whatever the scenario, they'll have a chance to go get therapy, to go get the help they need.
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# ? Oct 8, 2015 00:30 |
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fknlo posted:Suicides also shouldn't count in the gun death totals for reasons. Homicide and suicide have different causes and are prevented in different ways, irrespective of the method of violence.
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# ? Oct 8, 2015 00:30 |
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i thikn it's obvious that if we banned all methods of suicide that humans would just lay down and starve themselves to death, the will to Die is so strong in the heartless and craven man, that nothing can stop them from hurtling lemminglike into oblivion. so keep your sissy 'doctor' and 'psychiatrist' gun grabber mitts off my constitutionally protected rights, ya varmit. are you saying ten American veterans a day are wrong? they fought for your right to live, so why are you trying to take away their right to die? hypocrite
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# ? Oct 8, 2015 00:32 |
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zoux posted:Clinically depressed suicidal people aren't rational actors who compare shop suicide methods. Suicide attempts are often spontaneous and committed with what's at hand. That's why less than 2 percent of pill attempts are non fatal, most people simply don't have enough pills in their house to lethally overdose. But if there's a gun handy it's a different story. So if they have a firearm available in their house and grab that, they are 85% likely to fatally injure themselves. In fact, that's exactly what happened to my 18 year old cousin last year, who got into a fight with his girlfriend and suddenly in the middle of it went and got his dad's, my uncle's, .22 pistol and killed himself with it. We don't know why he did it, but if there wasn't a gun in the house that day he'd still be alive. Look man, stuff happens. For real, that sucks and I'm sorry for your loss
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# ? Oct 8, 2015 00:34 |
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zoux posted:Clinically depressed suicidal people aren't rational actors who compare shop suicide methods. Suicide attempts are often spontaneous and committed with what's at hand. That's why less than 2 percent of pill attempts are non fatal, most people simply don't have enough pills in their house to lethally overdose. But if there's a gun handy it's a different story. So if they have a firearm available in their house and grab that, they are 85% likely to fatally injure themselves. In fact, that's exactly what happened to my 18 year old cousin last year, who got into a fight with his girlfriend and suddenly in the middle of it went and got his dad's, my uncle's, .22 pistol and killed himself with it. We don't know why he did it, but if there wasn't a gun in the house that day he'd still be alive. My cousin also killed herself back in high school after a fight with her boyfriend, using his gun which she had for some reason. No one ever understood why. My brother almost killed said boyfriend when he had the nerve to show up for the funeral. It is very unlikely she would have been able to successfully kill herself that night if that gun hadn't been handy, and who knows what could have happened if she had made it till the next day.
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# ? Oct 8, 2015 00:35 |
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Dead Reckoning posted:Homicide and suicide have different causes and are prevented in different ways, irrespective of the method of violence. yeah, agreed homicide is caused by moral failure, poverty, cultural deficiency, or the warrior gene, and restricting access to weapons that deal instant and fatal blows to the human body clearly has no more impact than banning rocks, lightbulbs, or ladie's kisses suicide is caused by brokenbrainness, poverty, cultural deficiency, general sadsackiness, and a lack of Mojo, and restricting access to weapons that deal instant and fatal blows to the human body clearly has no more impact here as people will find other ways to kill themselves such as drowning or wasting away in ruined castles pining over long-lost heartbreak
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# ? Oct 8, 2015 00:35 |
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Khisanth Magus posted:My cousin also killed herself back in high school after a fight with her boyfriend, using his gun which she had for some reason. No one ever understood why. My brother almost killed said boyfriend when he had the nerve to show up for the funeral. Eighty five percent of suicide attempt survivors never re-attempt.
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# ? Oct 8, 2015 00:37 |
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Agreed. Now here's why we shouldn't bring up mental health issues until after the next mass shooting.
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# ? Oct 8, 2015 00:50 |
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People sure like firing their boomsticks. What's funny is that even with all this mental health chit chat, people are still trying to defund Obamacare.
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# ? Oct 8, 2015 00:55 |
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zoux posted:Clinically depressed suicidal people aren't rational actors who compare shop suicide methods. Suicide attempts are often spontaneous and committed with what's at hand. That's why less than 2 percent of pill attempts are non fatal, most people simply don't have enough pills in their house to lethally overdose. But if there's a gun handy it's a different story. So if they have a firearm available in their house and grab that, they are 85% likely to fatally injure themselves. In fact, that's exactly what happened to my 18 year old cousin last year, who got into a fight with his girlfriend and suddenly in the middle of it went and got his dad's, my uncle's, .22 pistol and killed himself with it. We don't know why he did it, but if there wasn't a gun in the house that day he'd still be alive.
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# ? Oct 8, 2015 01:02 |
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Dead Reckoning posted:Also, Congress deciding not to earmark funds for CDC studies on gun violence is not the same as the CDC being banned from doing those studies. On paper, you'd be absolutely correct but in terms of real-life "this is how government-funded science is done" they're essentially one and the same.
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# ? Oct 8, 2015 01:03 |
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Dead Reckoning posted:I'm sorry for your loss, I really am, but if you want to dictate policy for an entire country, you do need to address the fact that people everywhere in the world find ways to kill themselves, most often with poison or hanging, which are effective (depending on the poison) and readily accessible to most people. While you can look at an individual case and speculate that it may have turned out differently if the gun wasn't there, at the national level, other factors are much stronger drivers of suicide rates than legal access to guns. It's more important to make sure that people don't want to kill themselves in the first place than it is to try to round off all the sharp corners of the world in order to deny them the means. As little as you think we know about guns, that's how little you know about the causes and prevention of suicide. You obviously haven't even bothered to google "suicide effectiveness by method" as poison is counted along with overdoses and still is less than 2% effective.
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# ? Oct 8, 2015 01:06 |
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# ? May 27, 2024 03:50 |
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Dead Reckoning posted:I'm sorry for your loss, I really am, but if you want to dictate policy for an entire country, you do need to address the fact that people everywhere in the world find ways to kill themselves, most often with poison or hanging, which are effective (depending on the poison) and readily accessible to most people. While you can look at an individual case and speculate that it may have turned out differently if the gun wasn't there, at the national level, other factors are much stronger drivers of suicide rates than legal access to guns. It's more important to make sure that people don't want to kill themselves in the first place than it is to try to round off all the sharp corners of the world in order to deny them the means. It's like you didn't even read your own link. Let me highlight the relevant part: quote:
That's the first phrase on the page.
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# ? Oct 8, 2015 01:07 |