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KYOON GRIFFEY JR posted:Gliders were pretty hilarious. They did the job though didn't they? Or was there some better way of getting those dudes on the ground other than parachutes (which have their own hilarious problems)?
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Oct 11, 2015 22:49
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Maybe the Iowas? Really well designed battleships, probably the best of the war. Useful, too, just... not at the things battleships were originally intended to do, and found most of their value as floating AA batteries and shore bombardment platforms.
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Oct 11, 2015 23:00
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Rabhadh posted:BAR Is there any reason the BAR never got modified with a larger/drum magazine?
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Oct 11, 2015 23:10
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The Lone Badger posted:Is there any reason the BAR never got modified with a larger/drum magazine? I know this one, I know this one! Because it was already a heavy enough bastard of a gun to heft around along with your average infantryman's kit.
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Oct 11, 2015 23:27
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There was also project habbakuk and the attempt to make radio controlled bombers into cruise missles. R.I.P. Kennedy.
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Oct 11, 2015 23:28
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The glorious Great Panjandrum   
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Oct 11, 2015 23:33
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The Lone Badger posted:Is there any reason the BAR never got modified with a larger/drum magazine? I guess it wouldn't have made that much of a difference given you couldn't change the barrel.
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Oct 11, 2015 23:42
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JaucheCharly posted:Do you have to service the engine completely or swap it out after that time? The engine was replaced with a new one, the old one was sent to the factory for an overhaul. Edit: as far as hilarious American failures go, look no further than the T28 superheavy tank, or perhaps the M6, to a lesser degree. Huge tanks that weren't really good for anything, especially if you had to ship them to Europe in order to fight.
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Oct 11, 2015 23:47
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Cyrano4747 posted:Really, though, none of that matters much. At the end of the day you could have given the US German equipment, the Germans US equipment, the Russians British equipment, and the British Russian equipment and it all would have come out the same way. Equipment can give some nice local advantages in the right situations, but on a strategic scale what matters way more is getting as many good enough weapons in the hands of as many decent enough soldiers commanded by as many OK-ish generals as possible. This. While it can be interesting and entertaining (to a huge fuckin' nerd like me) to discuss the ups and downs of certain tank designs (for example), it is important to recognize that having a tank that's 10% or even 25% better than the opposition's tank in some arbitrary metric doesn't win any wars. A lot of internet discussions tend to revolve around which tank/fighter jet/whatever was or is the "best" as if it actually mattered. The most important metric for any kind of expensive equipment like that is availability (which you get by good reliability and good numbers), followed by not being completely obsolete. There are so many other factors involved in winning wars that which side has the best equipment is essentially a non-issue. A good example of this is the first Gulf War; people tend to use it as an argument for the superiority of US equipment or inferiority of Soviet equipment when in reality the results would have been more or less the same if the sides had swapped MBT's and fighter jets with each other - that's how big the gap in everything else was.
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Oct 11, 2015 23:52
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Cythereal posted:Maybe the Iowas? Really well designed battleships, probably the best of the war. Useful, too, just... not at the things battleships were originally intended to do, and found most of their value as floating AA batteries and shore bombardment platforms. Well, the Iowas did have an advantage over the smaller ships in having better survivability, though I wonder how many more tin cans and the like could have been built in their stead. Also there's the considerations of seaworthiness, range, and so on. Cyrano4747 posted:Really, though, none of that matters much. At the end of the day you could have given the US German equipment, the Germans US equipment, the Russians British equipment, and the British Russian equipment and it all would have come out the same way. Equipment can give some nice local advantages in the right situations, but on a strategic scale what matters way more is getting as many good enough weapons in the hands of as many decent enough soldiers commanded by as many OK-ish generals as possible. I dunno if I would fully agree with that. Especially later in the war as German equipment (Namely vehicles) were not well suited for the degree of strategic mobility an army on the offensive would need. And that's of course assuming production numbers were the same in the sense of the US making gobs of Pz IVs and Vs instead of M4s. The end result would have been the same, but the question would have been how costly it would have been. A slower offensive would have resulted in more deaths both military and civilian.
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Oct 12, 2015 00:03
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Taerkar posted:I dunno if I would fully agree with that. Especially later in the war as German equipment (Namely vehicles) were not well suited for the degree of strategic mobility an army on the offensive would need. And that's of course assuming production numbers were the same in the sense of the US making gobs of Pz IVs and Vs instead of M4s. That's what I'm saying, though. Strategic considerations (reliability, strategic mobility, numbers) are important, tactical ones not so much (as long as you reach a certain acceptable non-obsolete level). A "bad" tank in the right place at the right time is infinitely more valuable than a good tank that isn't there. Both the Panthers and the Tigers were really bad strategically; the Pz III and IV much less so.
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Oct 12, 2015 00:09
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Polyakov posted:I would go with the swordfish bomber, it will be forever immortalised by Taranto and Bismarck but they were really bad planes: open cockpit, poor range, flimsy as hell and slow, they had their uses (such as on the merchant escort carriers) but they were very much inferior to any other serving torpedo plane. I'd disagree about it being a bad airplane. The Swordfish would have been sushi if it had been flying against the Japanese in the Pacific. That's the thing, though- against the Germans with no carrier forces at all, it worked fine. Sure, it was a biplane, and slow, but those counted as advantages in operation. Biplanes can fly very, very slowly without stalling, and that's great for landing on carriers. The British actually developed two different monoplane replacements for the Swordfish - and neither was adopted, simply because the Swordfish as a carrier launched flying machine was so much better, and there was no real reason to upgrade. TheFluff posted:This. While it can be interesting and entertaining (to a huge fuckin' nerd like me) to discuss the ups and downs of certain tank designs (for example), it is important to recognize that having a tank that's 10% or even 25% better than the opposition's tank in some arbitrary metric doesn't win any wars. A lot of internet discussions tend to revolve around which tank/fighter jet/whatever was or is the "best" as if it actually mattered. The most important metric for any kind of expensive equipment like that is availability (which you get by good reliability and good numbers), followed by not being completely obsolete. There are so many other factors involved in winning wars that which side has the best equipment is essentially a non-issue. This is true. When people talk about next generation fighters and whatnot, they tend to forget that its all the actual flying hours and training that are most important in keeping an edge. Technology *can* be important, but it's ultimately secondary compared to training.
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Oct 12, 2015 00:16
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So why werre the Americans the only ones to put AAMGs/the M2 BMG on many of their AFV's in WW2? Afterall, tanks are a prime target for enemy aviation so having at least some sembalance of threat towards aircraft should be beneficial. Then also using the weapon on the ground too of course. (I'll take "because the Amercans had so much  " for ten, Alex.)
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Oct 12, 2015 00:38
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Nebakenezzer posted:I'd disagree about it being a bad airplane. The Swordfish would have been sushi if it had been flying against the Japanese in the Pacific. That's the thing, though- against the Germans with no carrier forces at all, it worked fine. Sure, it was a biplane, and slow, but those counted as advantages in operation. Biplanes can fly very, very slowly without stalling, and that's great for landing on carriers. The British actually developed two different monoplane replacements for the Swordfish - and neither was adopted, simply because the Swordfish as a carrier launched flying machine was so much better, and there was no real reason to upgrade. But it was a bad plane, saved only because there weren't other planes to oppose it. It's like saying the Type 95 Ha-Go was great because nothing better than CV-22's and PzI's fought it.
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Oct 12, 2015 00:40
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Xerxes17 posted:So why werre the Americans the only ones to put AAMGs/the M2 BMG on many of their AFV's in WW2? Both the Germans and Russians put AAMG's on their tanks. Germans put the MG-34 on their tanks, Russians had the DShK. 
Jobbo_Fett fucked around with this message at 00:45 on Oct 12, 2015 |
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Oct 12, 2015 00:43
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Polikarpov posted:The glorious Great Panjandrum What in the name of all that is holy is this and what was it supposed to do? Nebakenezzer posted:This is true. When people talk about next generation fighters and whatnot, they tend to forget that its all the actual flying hours and training that are most important in keeping an edge. Technology *can* be important, but it's ultimately secondary compared to training. Do flying hours really matter worth a drat in the latest fighters though? Like how much skill and experience do you need to launch a bunch of BVR missiles at some radar dots then swoop away?
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Oct 12, 2015 00:43
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Jobbo_Fett posted:But it was a bad plane, saved only because there weren't other planes to oppose it. It's like saying the Type 95 Ha-Go was great because nothing better than CV-22's and PzI's fought it. I don't think I've ever heard anyone in the mainstream praise the idea of using biplanes in WWII though.
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Oct 12, 2015 00:44
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Jobbo_Fett posted:Both the Germans and Russians put AAMG's on their tanks. Sure it was done at times; but I get the impression that it was relatively rare compared to Shermans which seemingly had the M2 installed on it at the factory as a basic part of the design.
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Oct 12, 2015 00:49
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Slavvy posted:What in the name of all that is holy is this and what was it supposed to do? That is a Panjandrum as the person you quoted said. It's filled with explosives in the middle and was fitted with rockets on the wheels, so it could be launched from landing craft against German shore positions and fortifications during the invasion of France. The idea was basically a big self-propelled demolition charge. It did not work and was not put into production.
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Oct 12, 2015 00:51
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Xerxes17 posted:Sure it was done at times; but I get the impression that it was relatively rare compared to Shermans which seemingly had the M2 installed on it at the factory as a basic part of the design. The AA rail for German tanks was a part of the commander's cupola, although I forget if it was limited to certain cupola types. I wouldn't put them as having as many as the Americans, but its far from rare if photo evidence counts for anything.
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Oct 12, 2015 00:57
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Jobbo_Fett posted:But it was a bad plane, saved only because there weren't other planes to oppose it. It's like saying the Type 95 Ha-Go was great because nothing better than CV-22's and PzI's fought it. It was an extremely niche plane that had a particular job to do and it did pretty well. For anti-submarine work without opposing aircraft, it was very good. It was used throughout the war for a reason. "Better" planes were available, but none could do that particular job as well. So it may have been an obsolete and crappy plane in an absolute sense, but it was a very effective war-fighting tool in its specific role.
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Oct 12, 2015 01:00
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Slavvy posted:Do flying hours really matter worth a drat in the latest fighters though? Like how much skill and experience do you need to launch a bunch of BVR missiles at some radar dots then swoop away? Yeah. I'm not an airplane person so I don't know the nitty gritty (try the Cold War thread for some real aviation spergs) but there's a lot more to it than "put radar on target, push button." The amount of airtime the USAF gets today is a crazy luxury compared to most of the other countries that we could conceivably go up against.
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Oct 12, 2015 01:01
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Xerxes17 posted:Sure it was done at times; but I get the impression that it was relatively rare compared to Shermans which seemingly had the M2 installed on it at the factory as a basic part of the design. Just off the top of my head, this was a feature on all IS-2 tanks and derivatives starting in January of 1945 and also on all T-35s and T-28s, as well as an optional addon for some pre-war light tanks, IIRC. I don't know how many of those were armed with AA mounts, I'd have to check.
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Oct 12, 2015 01:01
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In terms of American procurement issues I remember reading that the SB2C Helldiver dive bomber that replaced the SBD Dauntless ended up being a pretty lovely plane that was hated by its crews.
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Oct 12, 2015 01:07
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Taerkar posted:Well, the Iowas did have an advantage over the smaller ships in having better survivability, though I wonder how many more tin cans and the like could have been built in their stead. Also there's the considerations of seaworthiness, range, and so on. Just to run the numbers, for the cost of an Iowa you could build 4 Atlantas or ~16 Fletchers. In terms of raw AA firepower the Iowa has 20 5"/38s, the 4 Atlantas have 64 and the Fletcher swarm has 80 barrels.
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Oct 12, 2015 01:09
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Deteriorata posted:So it may have been an obsolete and crappy plane in an absolute sense, but it was a very effective war-fighting tool in its specific role. B-24 Liberator: 93 Subs sunk Faire Swordfish: 14 Subs sunk 
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Oct 12, 2015 01:12
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Jobbo_Fett posted:But it was a bad plane, saved only because there weren't other planes to oppose it. It's like saying the Type 95 Ha-Go was great because nothing better than CV-22's and PzI's fought it. But that never happened - the Swordfish is like having a type 95 vs. no tanks at all. Also "bad airplane" - it flew perfectly fine.
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Oct 12, 2015 01:24
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Didn't the Swordfish fly so slow/low that the AA guns on the Bismark had trouble acquiring it? The original question was whether there were allied weapons that were widely touted as being much better than reality. I don't think anyone was claiming the Swordfish or those American torpedos that didn't work to have been war winning wonder weapons like the way the Tiger was?
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Oct 12, 2015 01:34
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Deteriorata posted:It was an extremely niche plane that had a particular job to do and it did pretty well. For anti-submarine work without opposing aircraft, it was very good. It was used throughout the war for a reason. "Better" planes were available, but none could do that particular job as well. I wouldn't call it a niche plane, it was the main torpedo bomber of the FAA, it did do good work as antisubmarine flying from escort carriers or merchant cruisers, but that isn't really what it was known for doing, we never really saw the swordfish act in a reasonable environment to actually judge it, it was either completely (or near as dammit completely) permissive (as in attacking the Bismarck or Taranto) or completely hostile and im not sure any plane would have survived it, (Channel Dash). It just wasnt that good at its designed role as a fleet attack bomber. I think the reason it was used is more to do with the fact it did its job well enough, pilots knew how to use it, and it just was not worth shaking up production and training to replace it that early on, or to create a purpose built plane later on for the role it grew into. Throatwarbler posted:Didn't the Swordfish fly so slow/low that the AA guns on the Bismark had trouble acquiring it? It did, i know that its speculated that they were too slow for the AA directors to work properly I'm not sure whether its been proven or not. In British popular perception of WW2 the swordfish is one of the stars of the war, im not sure if american perception of it is similar in that sense.
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Oct 12, 2015 02:00
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Cythereal posted:That is a Panjandrum as the person you quoted said. It's filled with explosives in the middle and was fitted with rockets on the wheels, so it could be launched from landing craft against German shore positions and fortifications during the invasion of France. The idea was basically a big self-propelled demolition charge. It was in an episode of seventies situation comedy Dads Army based on the Home Guard amusingly.
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Oct 12, 2015 02:07
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Polyakov posted:In British popular perception of WW2 the swordfish is one of the stars of the war, im not sure if american perception of it is similar in that sense. The general American perception of the swordfish is "There was a WW2 plane called the swordfish?" For more informed Americans, it's "lol Bismarck got sunk by a biplane."
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Oct 12, 2015 02:12
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Polyakov posted:I think the reason it was used is more to do with the fact it did its job well enough, pilots knew how to use it, and it just was not worth shaking up production and training to replace it that early on, or to create a purpose built plane later on for the role it grew into. The Swordfish was the only torpedo bomber the British had, and Swordfish-like aircraft were the only torpedo bombers in all of Europe. Only a complete moron would have forgotten to include "torpedo bomber speed" into the fire control system's requirements. Rather, a complete moron designed Bismarck with AA mounts that could not traverse faster than the ship turned. As a result, when the Swordfish attacked, Bismarck turned full rudder while its AA guns struggled to keep a bead. Also, it was night-time and the gunners probably couldn't see the bombers anyways. Meanwhile, the big hulky airframe of the Swordfish could fit an early radar system that proved very useful for finding Bismarck. The Swordfish was understandable. The Brits didn't have the resources for a real carrier arm, or much R&D at all. As a torpedo bomber, it was fine. It's not a stretch to call the Japanese tanks fine as well. They were conventional designs from the interwar period, and never got replaced because there were bigger priorities.
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Oct 12, 2015 02:20
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Slim Jim Pickens posted:The Swordfish was the only torpedo bomber the British had Beaufort and Beaufighter
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Oct 12, 2015 02:31
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Jobbo_Fett posted:Beaufort and Beaufighter Sorry, only torpedo bomber while Bismarck was being constructed.
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Oct 12, 2015 02:42
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tbh it sounds like the swordfish had a well-conceived job to do, defined realistic conditions in which to do it, and did it very efficiently under those conditions not sure what better criteria there are for "good military asset"
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Oct 12, 2015 02:46
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Slim Jim Pickens posted:Sorry, only torpedo bomber while Bismarck was being constructed. Still technically the Beaufort. Oh and I forgot about the Vickers Wildebeest. Look, the point is that the Swordfish is neat for being useful way past the hey-day of biplanes as a carrier-based torpedo bomber but it was still a bad plane.
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Oct 12, 2015 02:50
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Xerxes17 posted:Sure it was done at times; but I get the impression that it was relatively rare compared to Shermans which seemingly had the M2 installed on it at the factory as a basic part of the design. If I recall correctly, German operating procedure was to put the hull MG on the cupola mounting for road marches, they weren't issued a gun to sit in that mount 24/7.
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Oct 12, 2015 02:53
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Jobbo_Fett posted:Still technically the Beaufort. was it more expensive than necessary or something i don't understand why you insist on what seems to have been a perfectly sensible aircraft that did its job perfectly well being a "bad plane" sure if the germans could contest its airspace it would've been in trouble, but they couldn't, so it was fine. it's like saying that the tiger would've been a great tank if it actually worked most of the time or whatever the sherman is poo poo, it cannot stand up to the space lasers of the vital martian theatre of war
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Oct 12, 2015 03:00
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Slim Jim Pickens posted:Rather, a complete moron designed Bismarck with AA mounts that could not traverse faster than the ship turned. As a result, when the Swordfish attacked, Bismarck turned full rudder while its AA guns struggled to keep a bead.  the only way I can picture a gun swivelling slower than a loving battleship can turn is if they're literally donkey powered through a series of gears and belts linked to a treadmill with the aforementioned donkey.
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Oct 12, 2015 03:08
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So I need to learn Chinese as soon as possible. I just learned that some guy 70 years ago wrote a "Day-by-Day Record of the Taiping Tianguo". Taiping Tianguo Part 1 Part 2 Part 3 Part 4 Part 5 Part 6 Part 7 Part 8 Part 9 Part 10 Part 11 Part 12 Part 13 Part 14 Part 15 Part 16 Part 17 Part 18 Part 19 Part 20 Part 21 Part 22 The Taiping spinoff luelinks "Shi Dakai" While the Xiang and Taiping armies battle over the upper Yangtze, Shi Dakai's independent force marches south after a disappointing visit to Anqing. Shi had hoped Li, Chen and other generals would join him, but they stay loyal to Heavenly King (who desperately needs them.) He is however, joined by his cousin Shi Zhenji, as well as Yang Fuqing, a relative of the murdered East King (since both Wei- and Yang-family generals stay loyal to the Taiping army, it seems likely that they had no better idea of the truth behind the 1856 events then we do today). His first stop after leaving Anhui will be Jiangxi. You may recall that, bolstered by remnants of the Red Turbans, Shi had conquered much of the province before being abruptly recalled to defend the capital. The Xiang army has regained much ground in the interim, but there are still many Taiping garrisons loyal to Shi that he is hoping can augment his forces. His eventual goal is Sichuan, but a roundabout southern route will allow him to steer clear of political complications with the Taiping generals, as well as avoid direct confrontation with the formidable Xiang generals such as Bao Chao and Li Xuebin. He fights his way through Jiangxi, but is defeated by Xiang forces as he attempts to move on Jia'an. He withdraws to Fuchou, where he receives a letter in late 1857 from the Heavenly King naming him "Holy Spirit Lightning" and asking him to return. He accepts the kick rear end title but declines the offer. He will instead decide to attempt an even more circuitous route, heading east into Zhejiang province. Despite his unwillingness to cooperate with Hong, Shi is no traitor- in the spring of 1858 he declines an offer from the Qing government to switch sides. Shi hasn't been as successful as hoped with regards to recruiting Taiping generals and soldiers, but he has a core of veteran troops as well as vast numbers of new recruits from the triads, bandits, and the desperate starving masses of southern and central China. His army is estimated at 200,000, and whatever the real number its large enough that it will divide into two columns under himself and Shi Zhenji for the march through Zhejiang. They take some cities, but abandon them to regroup with all of their forces at Pucheng in Fujian. There, Yang Fuqing, having gotten into some kind of argument with Shi Zhenji, takes his men home to the Heavenly Kingdom, for which he will be named a wang.  The Shi cousins have their own issues and will lead their forces seperately. Shi Dakai will successfully enter southern Jiangxi, but Shi Zhenji will be turned back by Xiang army forces and divert instead to Guangdong. Shi Dakai's main army moves west in two columns. The north column takes the city of Nanan, fights inconclusively with the Xiang army forces of Xiao Qijiang, and keeps moving westward. The southern column is not so lucky-Xiao intercepts them and prevents them from rejoining the main army. They instead flee south towards Guangdong. Joining Shi Zhenji, they are defeated by imperial forces there and destroyed, though Shi Zhenji manages to salvage his portion of the army and escape back towards Hunan. The Perilous Fight The Xiang army continued to pressure the Taiping on multiple fronts, always seeking to keep Hunan secure while simultaneously reinforcing and restoring order to other provinces. They had to deal with both Li and Cheng's forces in the northern theatre and now Shi Dakai's splinter groups. Meanwhile, other imperial forces sought to pressure Nanjing more directly. He Chun and Zhang Guoliang were once again pressuring Zhenjiang. This time, the Taiping forces are unable to recreate the miracle of 1856. Li Xiucheng is able to rescue Wu Juxiao and the garrison, but the city, the eastern key to the Yangtze, is lost. He and Zhang are now able to once again put Nanjing under siege. It being necessary to clear a route for supply of the Heavenly Capital, Li and Cheng enact a plan to create breathing space by securing the area north of the capital. By retaking Liuzhou and defeating an imperial army led by Texinga, they succeed in utterly destroying the Northern Imperial Barracks. Yangzhou is retaken. Liuhe, the city that had held out against the Taiping high tide of the northern expedition, is rapidly conquered. The siege of Nanjing now depends on He Chun and his southern forces. (That the Taiping cannot leverage these victories on the northern bank into a reclamation of Zhenjiang likely has to do with imperial naval supremacy on the Yangtze, and the constant need to shuffle manpower back to deal with other threats.) With the Taiping armies north of the Yangtze turned to the east, the fall of 1858 would seem an excellent time for the Xiang army to make a move. Bao Chao and Duolonga advance on a southern route to begin preparing the operation to take Anqing, while Li Xubin is dispatched to the north to retake Liuzhou. He is accompanied by Zeng Guohua, Zeng Guofan's younger brother. The plan is not a bad one, as in conjunction with the lose of Zhenjiang, losing Liuzhou and north Anhui will isolate Nanjing from sources of food and supply and enable it to be placed under siege once again. One important source of supplies is the town of Sanhe( 三 河) aka Three Rivers. Li and Zeng have taken only 7000 men with them, aiming to strike quickly in a surprise attack. This is a small army, but these are Xiang braves, recruited from Zeng's home district. They are the best of the best, and can be relied on to defeat an army three times their size. They take Tongcheng and advance on Sanhe, only long day's march from Liuzhou. They unfortunately find the town walled and garrisoned by some of the Taiping's best troops. And then it all goes pear shaped. They fail to take the city on their first assault, when word comes that Chen Yucheng's army has arrived on the scene, having marched back at the first word of trouble. Wu Juxiao has also arrived, his force set up to block any possible reinforcements. A few days later Li Xiucheng is on the scene as well. The old rule of thumb is that attacking requires a three to one advantage. The Xiang braves may be three times as good as any other soldier, necessitating an army nine times their size to defeat them. Unfortunately for them, every Taiping soldier in North Anhui has just converged, a gargantuan army estimated at 100,000. After one week with no sign of relief for the Xiang encampments, the Taiping drop the hammer. Li and Zeng are killed, and only a handful of units manage to sneak out and return to Tongcheng, only to be lost a week later when the Taiping retake that city.  The news is devastating to Zeng Guofan. In Zeng Guohua he has lost his brother. In Li Xubin he has lost a close colleague, and one of his best generals. He has also lost at least 6,000 men, whose military value equaled a unit many times that size. But these weren't just soldiers, these were in many cases the sons and brothers of people Zeng knew personally. Zeng's home district had lost all its young men in a single week. The close knit personal bonds that made the Xiang army so effective also opened the possibility of these tragedies, not unlike those seen with the Pals Batallions of WWI. But Zeng does not take another long break to mourn. He has committed himself to see this war through to the bitterest of ends. The failure of the empire's bravest and most steadfast troops to retake North Anhui could have stalled the momentum of the anti-Taiping campaign. But treachery often succeeds where valor fails. Imperial general Sheng Pao, who you may remember spent a stint in exile for his military incompetence, has concocted a clever plan. He reaches out to Li Zhaoshou, the Nian leader who had defected to the empire and later to the Taiping. Sheng Pao has some of Li's family in custody, but is willing to strike a deal. In exhange for turning over the cities he is garrisoning in North Anhui, Li and his army will be given a place of honor in the imperial army. Li, perhaps nervous about the known animosity Chen Yucheng has for Li and his undisciplined Nien troops, gladly accepts the chance to return to imperial service. Li Xiucheng, who had earlier brought Li Zhaoshou into the Taiping ranks, extends every courtesy and even lets Li's family members leave Taiping territory unmolested. His entreaties are for nought, as Li Zhaoshou compounds his betrayal and convinces his former Nian comrade Xue Zhiyuan to defect as well, taking with him the rest of Taiping territory north of the Yangtze. Homeland Security While this brings the Heavenly Capital under even more perilous direct threat, the Xiang army is still focused on an advance upriver to eventually take Anqing. In the spring of 1859, Zeng Guofan is sieging Jingdezhen in Jiangxi, about 100 miles south of Anqing and on the eastern side of Lake Poyang. He receives word that Shi Dakai's wandering army has shown up in Hunan. This force is reported to be 200,000 strong. Whether it actually was is a matter of debate, but this is the intelligence Zeng received, which makes his decision extraordinarily difficult. It will take a good deal of time to recall his armies and return to Hunan, and the Taiping would no doubt rush to fill the void, retaking many of the cities that have fallen in the last year. Without the Xiang army on the front lines, steady progress would be replaced with the see-saw trading of territory that had characterized the western front until recently. On the other hand, Hunan is the power base of the Xiang army, the best hope for defeating the Taiping and saving the Confucian order from ruin. The army's morale and regional pride no doubt drew on the fact that their homeland was a rare bastion of (relative) peace and stability. Zeng had in the past ignored imperial orders that he felt endangered his home province, but this time he sets caution aside. He fears that if his armies return home to Hunan, it will be extremely difficult to persuade them to leave again, and whole armies could disappear to desertion. He also trusts in his colleagues and subordinates to hold firm. Shi Dakai's force may be as large as ever, but the core of veterans has withered to losses in battle and desertion back to the main Taiping armies. Most of his men are Triad bandits or raw recruits. A well trained smaller force could plausibly hold the line. It's a coldly calculated risk, with disaster to follow if Zeng is wrong. Organizing the defense of Hunan will fall to Zuo Zongtang. His superior Governor Luo Bingchang does everything he can to help, but has little resources left to spare, having sent nearly everything out with Zeng's expeditionary forces. Zuo impressively manages to round up 40,000 men, grabbing retirees, trainees, men on leave, and any man who had ever served in the Xiang army. This hastily organized emergency corps is dispatched south under Liu Zhangyu# and manages to hold firm, beating the Taiping at Yongzhou and then holding firm at Baoqing for a month long siege through June. Relief comes in the form of reinforcements from Hubei, dispatched by governor Hu Linyi and commanded by Li Xubin's cousin, Li Xuyi. A coordinated assault from two sides drives Shi's army back, and he gives up on the conquest of Hunan. Shi will instead lead his army back into Guangxi, where it all began. #Liu Zhangyu is a good general who found himself without an army when they all died of disease. I'm honestly surprised that didn't happen more often. So I've been working a bit on organizing my bibliography and stuff, and trying to figure out what direction I want to take this project. I can make it more entertaining*, add some colorful maps, and turn it into a breezy popular history book providing a synthetic narrative of the period (that no publisher in their right mind will touch). Or I can make it less entertaining, add an actual argument** and invest a huge amount of time to turn it into a piece of very serious academic literature (that no publisher in their right mind will touch). Working Titles Hunan Zeng and the Last Crusade Dad God, So What? Fucktopia part III: Wrath of the Fucklords *You know, that present-tense, put you in the historical figure's shoes style that history books use nowadays. "The sun glistened on Robert E. Lee's balls as he woke up on the morning of July 3rd. The rough woolen pants of the era chafed his scrotum, so he would enjoy a brief moment of respite before putting on his uniform and exiting his tent to inspect the army. Like the rest of the general staff, his rear end is itching terribly from the night before, but his southern dignity does not allow him to scratch it as he reviews the deployment of the 3rd brigade." ** Taking Philip Kuhn's basic framework of orthodox and heterodox social organizations coexisting in Qing society and analyzing for each of the late Qing rebellions the extent to which millenarian religion was a motivator or instead a contingent means for social organization by which ethnic and class grievances could coalesce. The many different sects and groups rebelling in this period show a degree of common cause, so a parallel question emerges as to whether this indicates solely practical cooperation, or perhaps instead a conception of millenarian revolution that cut across the finer points of differing theologies. Not necessarily new ground, but my aim would be to shy away from an overarching theory to explain the period as a whole but instead treat each case in its particulars and accept the possibility that the answers may differ.
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Oct 12, 2015 03:10
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