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evilweasel posted:reminder: the biggest surge in gun purchases in like the last hundred years was the mere election of barak hussein obama, who was sure to steal your guns despite that he did nothing about it for like five years until the poster child of the gun-loving family murdered tons of little children because mommy dearest just had to have all of her guns Just for you chicken littles out there, keep in mind that the violence rate in this country is near historic lows and is continuing to drop.
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Oct 12, 2015 18:52
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meristem posted:What about when young 'would tots vote for the Democrats except guns' male gun owners do so against the reliably Democratic-voting young single women who for some strange reason don't want to have sex with exemplars of the former group? thankfully not that common; these men are cowards
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Oct 12, 2015 18:52
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various cheeses posted:Just for you chicken littles out there, keep in mind that the violence rate in this country is near historic lows and is continuing to drop. did you intend for this statement to support your argument instead of undermining it if so, lmao
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Oct 12, 2015 18:53
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various cheeses posted:Just for you chicken littles out there, keep in mind that the violence rate in this country is near historic lows and is continuing to drop. Incidentally, so is the gun ownership rate!
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Oct 12, 2015 18:53
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Nintendo Kid posted:Incidentally, so is the gun ownership rate! And yet gun sales have been at record highs for the past couple years.
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Oct 12, 2015 18:55
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various cheeses posted:And yet gun sales have been at record highs for the past couple years. because a black person was elected president. edit: mass shootings have been on the rise too. Hmm.
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Oct 12, 2015 18:56
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various cheeses posted:And yet gun sales have been at record highs for the past couple years. Then who is buying them? Oh right. Paranoid idiots.
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Oct 12, 2015 18:56
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various cheeses posted:And yet gun sales have been at record highs for the past couple years. it's because of TFR posters who have 300-gun collections for protection
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Oct 12, 2015 18:56
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evilweasel posted:"I don't want the job and I won't campaign for it, but should my party elect me as speaker anyway I will serve" would be a pretty good way to thread the needle and put the onus back on the rest of the party to gin up the votes while refusing any demands for the votes. Out of all of the GOP choices for speaker, I think Ryan as speaker is a win for the Democratic party. He's not very smart and when he speaks he seems weak and ineffective. I don't think he'll be able to handle the pressure well either. Jarmak posted:Is that why you're willing to alienate a large portion of the electorate who might otherwise support you on those issues just to support useless regulations that aren't going to pass? This guy sort of has a point. The only result of pushing gun legislation in the next 4 years will be increased motivation of the GOP base and more GOP politicians elected. The gun nuts will be more motivated to vote. Gun nuts are unreasonable but there is a lot of them. Any actual actions of the Democratic party to push gun legislation has backfired horribly in the past 8 years. See what they did to Colorado's state legislature over the course of a few years. What's the point in poking the bear?
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Oct 12, 2015 18:58
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various cheeses posted:And yet gun sales have been at record highs for the past couple years. any minute now the government is going to take it all away
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Oct 12, 2015 18:58
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various cheeses posted:And yet gun sales have been at record highs for the past couple years. Those two facts are not incompatible. The obvious conclusion is that fewer gun owners have larger arsenals. http://webcache.googleusercontent.c...n&ct=clnk&gl=us
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Oct 12, 2015 18:59
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various cheeses posted:And yet gun sales have been at record highs for the past couple years. Yes, the paranoid minority who still own guns keep increasing their hoards, because they are stupid. That's why there are over 300 million guns in the country, but less than 125 million people who own at least one gun, possibly even under 95 million. Peanut3141 posted:Those two facts are not incompatible. The obvious conclusion is that fewer gun owners have larger arsenals. Wait, according to this only 22% of Americans own a gun so that cuts it to.... about 71 million gun owners tops.
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Oct 12, 2015 19:00
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SedanChair posted:I'm thinking more that they stop voting. And almost every voter in America is an immoral scumbag. almost every human being is an immoral scumbag, doesn't mean we shouldn't at least attempt sane legislation and policy. like, you get 100 people and ask them about moral issues/issues related to prejudice/ethical quandaries, and 99 of them will say SOMETHING horrible. Like, you'll get an upright, earth-loving liberal progressive who constantly checks their privilege, but when it comes right down to it, on average rates all black women as far less attractive than all white women, and would not be happy with their daughter marrying a black man (although would not be as mad if he were mixed race). You get a gay rights campaigner who thinks Palestinians are not a people and the settlements are good and right You get a social worker who has done immeasurable levels of good in their community, but during a mass shooting uses another person as a human shield You get a dedicated public servant with a 30 year career making sure builders don't build lovely buildings that will collapse on their occupants, but he cheated on his wife once with an underage prostitute. You get a Peace Corps person who's helped build wells in a 100 African villages. but they also answer on a survey that they would never vote for an atheist or a woman to be president. I've noticed people on this very site who otherwise seem reasonable and rational, and then turn around and post transphobic nonsense in GBS (btw gently caress off and die if your idea of a trans person is "guy that chose to have their dick cut off, lol"). being completely empathetic and humanist is a giant challenge most people are unable to surmount, and the vast majority of people wouldn't care to anyway, because they're actually somehow proud of their narrow-minded prejudices and completely ignorant opinions. but here is the thing. Gun owners are a group that gun control advocates dehumanize as a matter of course, which they shouldn't, as it really hurts their cause and undermines their moral high ground. never dehumanize your opponents (unless they're bloodsucking economy vampires like that Shrkeli chucklefuck). I prefer to think of gun owners as victims, in a sense, of a corporate marketing agenda. The opposition to gun control is truly about sustaining and growing gun sales. Smith & Wesson benefits far more than the gun owner. The NRA has manipulated its members, just as the political parties manipulate their members to vote against their own best interests. They've created an idea of gun rights as an essential American right (despite that not really being a thing before). They've encouraged the centrality of guns, and a celebration of the use of guns as a vital part of American culture. It is ridiculous that no amount of death will change these people's minds, but it's no more ridiculous than anyone else refusing to change their mind on anything based on evidence. Only a fraction of the human race even responds to empiricism as a valid epistemology, scary as it is to say. Emotionally, guns of course matter more than people gun owners don't know. People are always making value judgments about which human lives matter more, and whether certain deaths matter enough for policy change to be necessary. the Army Corps of Engineers at some point decided they valued the money they could use for other things more than the possibility New Orleans could drown. Cold equations are a natural part of human calculus, and inanimate objects/money come up the winner more often than we'd care to admit. I will always criticize it when it happens, but it's worth remembering it's not a unique phenomena, and nothing gun rights advocates do is especially unusual or crazy. because they're not specially crazy, there are ways of changing minds. but those ways involve empathy and understanding, and patience, and rejecting black/white thinking and ideological prejudice, and stereotypes of "hicks".
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Oct 12, 2015 19:01
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It's a true statement to say that crime overall has went down in the United States. However it completely discounts the studies that show crime in minority neighborhoods have worsened or not improved. Basically, we have successfully through our prison system complex, racial profiling, and complete lack of community investment destroyed any chance large portions of the population ability to actually leave poverty. Yes gun crime has went down over all in the United States it has not declined or improved in a large portion of minority neighborhoods. We have only successfully quarantined crime.
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Oct 12, 2015 19:02
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various cheeses posted:Lol after reading that, yeah nevermind on that one. That bill sounds like a real clusterfuck. I'm for a nation wide gun control program on par with, ya know, most of loving Europe and other developed areas. You don't get a gun unless you have a federal license with very strict standards, show a need for it beyond 'me like boom', and register it to you under the knowledge that if this gun is used in anything illegal, even some 'I had a gun in the car and robbed a place and drove off' poo poo, that's an automatic extra charge because we have zero tolerance for that poo poo. Obviously we'd need a nice long amnesty period to allow all these, as many people like you are eager to point out, law abiding and reasonable gun owners to come and turn in their now banned guns (obviously there'd be a lot of fiddly stuff to work out that I'm more than open to debate, grandfathering certain guns, collector pieces, historics, that stuff) and register the ones that are allowed (I'm thinking the UK standard is pretty good for that, basic shotguns, bolt rifles for hunting, simple pistols for self defense). I mean the argument is that 99% of gun owners are reasonable, law abiding, people, right? So there shouldn't be any issue getting them to follow the law, keep some guns as they constitutionally are allowed as long as they're registered and licensed. Hell I'd be fine with some gun range allowance letting them have bigger guns and all for entertainment purposes provided they were cool with strict oversight and safety standards, since I get that guns are fun to shoot and all. Obviously soldiers and cops and such should have a bit of leeway on what they can keep but again, registered, licensed, etc. Now of course you're going to explain why that's basically Hitler.
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Oct 12, 2015 19:05
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Spatula City posted:because they're not specially crazy, there are ways of changing minds. but those ways involve empathy and understanding, and patience, and rejecting black/white thinking and ideological prejudice, and stereotypes of "hicks". I don't think anyone opposes trying to rehabilitate gun nuts while we reform the laws, we're just not willing to wait on it and not willing to tolerate the delusion that they are reasonable people with reasonable views at this moment. Once they stop spouting tactical this, my gun protects against tyranny that, gungrabbers are everywhere, etc in response to "how about universal background checks" I'm sure they can be lovely people and productive members of society. But calling them unreasonable lunatics is not about otherizing them, it is about making it clear that trying to get their approval is not going to work.
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Oct 12, 2015 19:08
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I would like to propose the new thread title: USPOL October, or: How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Love Gunchat
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Oct 12, 2015 19:09
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ComradeCosmobot posted:I would like to propose the new thread title: USPOL October, or: How I learned to Stop Worrying and just bought a gun
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Oct 12, 2015 19:11
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Jarmak posted:The previously mentioned Colorado elections indicate otherwise. Okay so that's one minor D-leaning swing state full of libertarian manchildren. That's it? In that case, gently caress it, the Rs can have them
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Oct 12, 2015 19:12
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icantfindaname posted:Okay so that's one minor D-leaning swing state full of libertarian manchildren. That's it? In that case, gently caress it, the Rs can have them D-leaning state with the epicenter of evangelical militaristic whiteness and a huge contingency of libertarian retards.
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Oct 12, 2015 19:18
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meristem posted:What about when young 'would tots vote for the Democrats except guns' male gun owners do so against the reliably Democratic-voting young single women who for some strange reason don't want to have sex with exemplars of the former group? Lol what the gently caress is this?
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Oct 12, 2015 19:19
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Jarmak posted:Lol what the gently caress is this? A reference to the Isla Vista mass shooting in 2014. With all the mass shootings, it is understandable you might have forgotten about that one.
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Oct 12, 2015 19:23
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The people who really are single-issue gun voters and also don't just basically line up with the GOP anyways does seem to be pretty small. I mean yeah they exist, but they barely seem worth considering when you're looking at politics on a national scale.
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Oct 12, 2015 19:23
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ComradeCosmobot posted:I would like to propose the new thread title: USPOL October: Gunchat Megathread
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Oct 12, 2015 19:24
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Tatum Girlparts posted:I'm for a nation wide gun control program on par with, ya know, most of loving Europe and other developed areas. You don't get a gun unless you have a federal license with very strict standards, show a need for it beyond 'me like boom', and register it to you under the knowledge that if this gun is used in anything illegal, even some 'I had a gun in the car and robbed a place and drove off' poo poo, that's an automatic extra charge because we have zero tolerance for that poo poo. Obviously we'd need a nice long amnesty period to allow all these, as many people like you are eager to point out, law abiding and reasonable gun owners to come and turn in their now banned guns (obviously there'd be a lot of fiddly stuff to work out that I'm more than open to debate, grandfathering certain guns, collector pieces, historics, that stuff) and register the ones that are allowed (I'm thinking the UK standard is pretty good for that, basic shotguns, bolt rifles for hunting, simple pistols for self defense). So ban and confiscate the majority of guns. No thank you. You're certainly not Hitler, but you're not asking for anything reasonable either, so no thanks.
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Oct 12, 2015 19:25
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DeusExMachinima posted:a) that's not OSHA, my source was and b) 120db *can* cause hearing loss immediately *after* prior exposure that day. Some shorter/lighter suppressors intended primarily for combat versus range use are just under the 140db threshold, most aren't. Don't know where you got your "average" from. Try again. Why should I need to know such absurd specifics in order to legislate guns? I shouldn't have to know the max temperature for an automatic transmission in order to enact a speed limit.
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Oct 12, 2015 19:26
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The gun is good. The penis is evil.
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Oct 12, 2015 19:26
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various cheeses posted:So ban and confiscate the majority of guns. No thank you. You're certainly not Hitler, but you're not asking for anything reasonable either, so no thanks. People like you in all honesty should have their guns taken away, because you're clearly not mentally stable enough to be trusted with one.
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Oct 12, 2015 19:27
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Monkey Fracas posted:The people who really are single-issue gun voters and also don't just basically line up with the GOP anyways does seem to be pretty small. I mean yeah they exist, but they barely seem worth considering when you're looking at politics on a national scale. It could be more about driving turn out among GOP voters then alienating swing voters but the effect is the same and happens every loving time. But go ahead, grab that loving stove, I'm sure this time it won't be hot.
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Oct 12, 2015 19:29
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various cheeses posted:So ban and confiscate the majority of guns. No thank you. You're certainly not Hitler, but you're not asking for anything reasonable either, so no thanks. If I like to play with cruise missiles and nuclear bombs in my backyard, should the government not be able to take those away from me either? What about Drones? There have already been cases of people attaching guns to their drones, now drones are highly regulated in most places to keep them 1. from being murder machines and 2. from causing problems in the airspace. Same as guns, started out as a simple hobby, now they are legislated and controlled so they are less dangerous to society. They even have security uses too. What makes guns an exception, besides the second amendment? Milk Malk fucked around with this message at 19:35 on Oct 12, 2015 |
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Oct 12, 2015 19:30
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various cheeses posted:So ban and confiscate the majority of guns. No thank you. You're certainly not Hitler, but you're not asking for anything reasonable either, so no thanks. So you're saying the majority of gun owners can't come up with a way to justify their ownership for hunting, collection, etc? Or are otherwise unable to legally own a gun now but are slipping through the cracks? That's an impressive thing to admit as a supposedly anti-regulation advocate.
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Oct 12, 2015 19:30
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various cheeses posted:So ban and confiscate the majority of guns. No thank you. You're certainly not Hitler, but you're not asking for anything reasonable either, so no thanks. Can you explain why? When the UK instituted their bans they had to do a good bit of 'confiscation' (nice word choice, it was turn ins with the understanding that after x period of time those guns will carry serious punishments to own) but it seemed to work pretty well. I genuinely agree with you that most gun owners are perfectly normal law abiding folks, who I believe would follow the law. What's your plan, then? You've said you agree background checks are good, awesome, agreement there, but what else do we do?
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Oct 12, 2015 19:32
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various cheeses posted:So ban and confiscate the majority of guns. No thank you. You're certainly not Hitler, but you're not asking for anything reasonable either, so no thanks. It sure would be nice to see you reciprocate with your suggestions. Assuming that current gun regulation isn't a 100% match with your ideal world, what would you recommend?
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Oct 12, 2015 19:32
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Can someone change the thread title when gun chat ends?
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Oct 12, 2015 19:32
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DeusExMachinima posted:a) that's not OSHA, my source was and b) 120db *can* cause hearing loss immediately *after* prior exposure that day. Some shorter/lighter suppressors intended primarily for combat versus range use are just under the 140db threshold, most aren't. Don't know where you got your "average" from. Try again. I guess you didn't hear me tell you not to leave your posting ghetto anymore? Maybe because of all the hearing damage?
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Oct 12, 2015 19:33
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Soonmot posted:Can someone change the thread title when gun chat ends? Check back tomorrow after the debate.
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Oct 12, 2015 19:33
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Nintendo Kid posted:People like you in all honesty should have their guns taken away, because you're clearly not mentally stable enough to be trusted with one. Interesting that you assume that. Clearly due to my disagreement with your policy, I'm some sort of subhuman or mental defective. You're sure to win a lot of people over with that attitude.
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Oct 12, 2015 19:34
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various cheeses posted:Interesting that you assume that. Clearly due to my disagreement with your policy, I'm some sort of subhuman or mental defective. You're sure to win a lot of people over with that attitude. fyi, those with mental illness aren't "subhuman" hth
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Oct 12, 2015 19:36
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Jarmak posted:It could be more about driving turn out among GOP voters then alienating swing voters but the effect is the same and happens every loving time. I find this a lot more believable than the mythical "liberal who votes on guns alone". However all an R politician has to say is "They're gonna take your guns; Those Democrats!" and it's taken at face value anyways so it may not have as much of an effect as you think. Whether it's worth the political capital to try drinking the ocean is another question entirely though. Do you have a reasonable shot at passing something meaningful?
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Oct 12, 2015 19:36
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various cheeses posted:Interesting that you assume that. Clearly due to my disagreement with your policy, I'm some sort of subhuman or mental defective. You're sure to win a lot of people over with that attitude. You are a self admitted potential single issue gun voter. That is proof of being stupid.
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