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This tumblr has a lot of really good photography of cats in Istanbul in various places  Anyhow, apparently 2015 marks the 1000 year anniversary of the Kitab al-Manazir/De Aspectibus/Book of Optics by Alhazen  It had a huge influence on the study of vision and optics in the Middle Ages and is one of the wider-known examples of Islamic scholarship in the sciences. Other influential works by Islamic scholars are the Book of Fixed Stars by al-Sufi, which has the earliest known description/depiction of the Andromeda galaxy that we're aware of in text, and The Compendious Book on Calculation by Completion and Balancing which, to be honest, deals with more math than I'm good at and I really just like the title 
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Oct 7, 2015 16:42
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Tendai posted:Out of curiosity, since I don't know this, do you know what the standard idea is for if someone HAS no history? Baby left on a doorstep scenario, that sort of thing. I know that's kind of a weighty, ask-an-imam question but do you have any idea of what kind of the general idea is? Raise them as your own? Try to find out? A combination? In a Jon or Jane Doe situation, I think, the matter of opinion among scholars might be split. However, I have no specific knowledge. I think, personally, it would be better for them to be given a proper name and identity than a random one, to avoid a sense of abandonment. I say that because, based on my knowledge of parents and children's rights, the parents have the right to give them an identity and the children have the right to have one to grow up healthy emotionally. If the parent abandons that right, then someone should step in to insure the rights of the children are met. I could be wrong on that, but it is my take.
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Oct 7, 2015 17:16
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Tendai posted:This tumblr has a lot of really good photography of cats in Istanbul in various places
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Oct 7, 2015 17:31
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Amun Khonsu posted:In a Jon or Jane Doe situation, I think, the matter of opinion among scholars might be split. However, I have no specific knowledge. I think, personally, it would be better for them to be given a proper name and identity than a random one, to avoid a sense of abandonment. I say that because, based on my knowledge of parents and children's rights, the parents have the right to give them an identity and the children have the right to have one to grow up healthy emotionally. If the parent abandons that right, then someone should step in to insure the rights of the children are met. HEY GAL posted:there's tons of cats in the other rome as well, basically the entire mediterrenian is full of them  EDIT: Necessary changes because apparently me am no grammar good.
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Oct 7, 2015 17:33
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Tendai posted:To judge by the liturgical thread and this one, cats are the true ambassadors of inter-faith dialogue  edit: same cat 
HEY GUNS fucked around with this message at 17:53 on Oct 7, 2015 |
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Oct 7, 2015 17:46
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I love this kitty!  Who am I kidding, I love ALL kitties!Yet another question. How do Islam view cosmetic surgery? Is thre a sense of "God created you like this so deal with it!" or "It was God's will you be horribly disfigured in a fire"? Or is it seen as perfectly OK to "improve" what you look like? Would there be a difference between vanity like a face lift and something like reconstructive surgery after cancer? Are things like cochlear implants seen as a great help or more a trying to interfer with God wanting you to be deaf? Artificial limps?
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Oct 7, 2015 19:23
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BattyKiara posted:I love this kitty! When it comes to doing it for the essential purpose of "I want to look hotter," the attitude is generally negative. The majority of Sunni schools of thought that I know about have a prohibition against permanent changes to the body like tattoos, and generally this is seen to cover non-health-related cosmetic surgery. I don't think the Shi'a have that as much, if at all, but even then I think the attitude towards invasive surgical procedures for the sake of vanity is generally negative. Few religions are A+++ on vanity Generally, the decision making process for things that are innovations in Islam, like cochlear implants, goes something like this: Is it specifically forbidden anywhere (Qur'an/Hadith/Sunna)? If yes, don't do it unless there's a serious need (eating pork if you're starving, for example). If no... Is it against the basic principles of Islam? If yes, don't do it unless there's a serious need. If no... Is it going to help people more than it will hurt them? If yes, do it. If no, what are you doing, making weapons, rear end in a top hat? This is a huge oversimplification because there is a lot more to it and different places will put emphasis on different things. The importance of the third question will depend a lot on the individual situation, sometimes it should be the first question, sometimes the last, but the point to be taken away in all three parts is that there is always an exception, up to and including straight up denying your faith (the degree to which that in particular is accepted is, as stated earlier in this thread, going to depend on where you are). The majority of scholars that I'm well-familiar with have essentially said that it is more important to be charitable, helpful and good to others than it is to try to be The Perfect Muslim in terms of dogma, because Islam in and of itself revolves around the idea of brotherhood and kindness to others.
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Oct 7, 2015 22:12
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edit. Sorry. wrong section.
Amun Khonsu fucked around with this message at 03:28 on Oct 8, 2015 |
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Oct 8, 2015 03:25
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I stumbled on this today as I was reading about something else and I thought it was a really good example of how incredibly tricky Islamic metaphysics and philosophy can get when it comes down to the words used. This is true for any religion/language, I suppose, but the comparison between qidam, azal and abad and the connotations they carry while still having similar meanings struck me as an excellent example for anyone interested in that kind of thing: http://www.muslimphilosophy.com/ei2/QIDAM.htm
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Oct 9, 2015 18:01
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Hello! I am a Muslim from Singapore, where the overwhelming majority of Muslims are Malay, and the second-largest group are Indians (a portion of which are migrant workers from India and Bangladesh), with a smattering of Chinese, and a bunch of converts. I have not personally met a white person (not Eurasian) who was born Muslim, but I have met plenty of converts. Two of my direct family members are converts themselves. My uncle, who is French, and my brother-in-law, who is Chinese. As a fully cosmopolitan nation, Muslims in Singapore mainly come in a few flavors: they are either not super devout (they drink, eat pork, fornicate, etc); they are regular people who are concerned over the quality of their own faith and practices, rather than judging someone else's; they are devout people who take it upon themselves to come up to you and talk to you in an attempt to strengthen your practices (generally nice people, but a bit pushy). Most of the first group, invariably end up being the second group as they grow older. Most of them are young and are basically sowing their wild oats, so to speak. As they settle down, get married, and have kids, they start worrying about the state of their soul, so they start getting religious. Most of my friends are currently in this state of their lives (being in their late twenties/early thirties). Apostasy is exceedingly rare here (or maybe a lot of them are still in the closet about it), and in fact I only know of one, personally, who has declared himself out of the faith and is a full-on Dawkins-type atheist. A lot of his reasons are to do with the methods his father employed in trying to get him to learn Islam as a young boy. He has to hide this from his family because he doesn't want to get kicked out of the house. I keep telling to him to either stand up for his beliefs or stop whining to me about it because there's literally nothing I can do. I also have a friend who is about to marry a formerly-Muslim girl - she got kicked out of the house years ago, but I don't know her personally and don't know what her story is, or what her relationship with her parents are right now. There are plenty of sects of Islam in Singapore, despite us being a small nation. We are mostly Sunni, with some ideological differences. I, personally, subscribe to the whole 'try to emulate Muhammad as much as possible' school, with emphasis on try, and an even bigger emphasis on 'too lazy'. About the dog-saliva thing: If a dog licks you, you're supposed to clean your body with basically soil. There's apparently a special soap they make now that serves the same purpose, which I assume is some kind of industrial soap thing because you can't expect to find soil anywhere. Wudhu is different. That's the ritual ablutions you need to undergo before you pray, or handle the Qur'an. That, honestly, is pretty fast and easy - no more than a couple of minutes. If you don't have water where you are, for whatever reason, there's an even simpler version that uses dust from the ground. Also, something most people don't know, and most of my non-Muslim friends find amusing, is that we have to do this ritual washing that involves scrubbing every inch of your body after we orgasm. Fun!
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Oct 12, 2015 19:50
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Oh cool, thank you for your insights! In the US at least, we REALLY do not hear much in the media about Islam in SE Asia, which is ridiculous considering that Indonesia and Bangladesh together have just over 20% of the worldwide Muslim population. Have you done the Hajj or is it something you're interested in? Would you say that the second group you mentioned (religious but not pushy or showy) are probably the majority as opposed to the more aggressive "ISLAM IS THE LIGHT LET ME TELL YOU ABOUT IT" types? In the "average" Muslim family is arranged marriage a thing and if it is, is it more cultural or more religious based? Sorry, this is a lot of questions! Like I said, we do not hear much in the US about Islam as it's practiced and how it works in day to day life in SE Asia, unfortunately. ~ What he (she?) is talking about with dust is tayammum, which is something I totally forgot about till now. It's always made sense for me in terms of where Islam originated; if you have to conserve your scarce water to drink in the middle of the desert, it makes sense that there would be an alternative. When I first converted everything said "YOU CAN ONLY USE NATURAL WATER" and it was Alaska in the winter so I used melted snow  It was significantly more pleasant once I found out that well water and other things were okay. I can't imagine if I was doing ghusl (the post-sex/menstruation/birth/orgasm bigger-than-wudu wash that he mentioned) trying to use melted snow.Quite honestly I'm so used to the practice now that not washing pretty rapidly post-sex would probably just strike me as being kind of gross.
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Oct 12, 2015 20:10
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So I'm absolutely rubbish and haven't given myself any time to make any kind of effort post regarding my experience with Muslim culture in Malaysia. So here's a brief one instead. Islam in Malaysia especially, gets tied in pretty strongly with racial politics for two reasons. One; some major political parties have been pushing racial differences as a pretty big thing, largely citing the economic underperformance of the indigenous people (Bumiputras) versus Indian and Chinese minorities and Two: Islam is regarded as a fundamental elemnt of Malay ethnic identity. If you noticed two separate terms there (bumiputra and Malay) that would be because Malays are a subset of Bumiputra but pro-Malay parties tend to use the disenfranchisement of the overall group as a reason for affording better treatment to Malays (at least that's my understanding of it based on basic news reading while there and talking to opinionated people. Everyone there is opinionated about politics if you can get them started on it). That fundamental part of the ethnic identity is important because it meets all Malays are Muslim, whether they want to be or not, and so subject to Sharia in nearly every state in Malaysia. Since (as others have noted ) apostasy is a crime and the only way to get out of it is to convince a religious court that you never had faith in Islam... well there's been a grand total of one or two successful petitions to have Muslim taken off someone's identity card. I've known quite a few Malays that are basically angostic/atheists or just don't really believe in parts of the faith (such as no drinking) but they keep quiet about it outside of friends. The country is pretty much entirely Sunni, though there are quite a few Iranian expats so I suspect there's a few Shia mosques around as well. Outside of the major cities (and especially in the Northern states) they tend to be pretty conservative. Some of the Mosques in and around KL are extremely so, I got invited to a friend's wedding and (after waiting an hour for the Imam to finish a Quranic lesson that had run late to 11pm) we were told that the non-Muslims would have to remain outside while the ceremony was conducted. This wasn't a dress thing as everyone was properly attired in order to enter the grounds of the mosque, just no non-Muslims inside. Also dogs are unclean but generally ok? Nope! A guy who started a campaign to encourage his fellow Malays to be comfortable around dogs was forced to apologise for trying to lead Muslims astray and a woman who posted a video celebrating breaking fast with her two pet dogs was arrested for disrespecting the religion. The conservative elements of the religion were a bit weird for some of the other Muslims I knew there. One Texan coworker (Sunni) said he had one female coworker grab his hand and then giggle that now he had to go rewash so he could be ready for prayers. I think these things stuck out to me as many were things non-Malay Muslims I knew thought were a bit unusual or 'not really Muslim' (in the same sense I'd get weirded out going to a church service in Spain or a Baptist one) At the risk of sounding a bit like one of those stereotypical expats who just complains about all the funny things people from other cultures do, I'll talk a little bit about some of the positive experiences as well. The wedding I went to was definitely a lot of fun, the guy was Yemeni and his wife was Malaysian Indian (who converted and stopped drinking alcohol. He definitely didn't join her). She was present at the ceremony but off to the side, the Libyans there told me this was different from Libya where the 7 days of partying and the ceremony itself would be held with everyone in separate parts of town. The bride's father would sign the agreement and the couple would meet after the marriage was completed. The dinner and party afterwards were excellent fun though not as long as is traditional apparently. Ramadan in a Muslim country was interesting too, as life generally slows down a lot everywhere and not just because people are more serious about making sure they perform all their daily prayers. People were a lot more tired and generally quieter (except for the women who would suddenly announce for a few days they were able to go eat lunch, a lot more open about somethings...)
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Oct 12, 2015 23:21
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MrNemo posted:all Malays are Muslim, whether they want to be or not Its worth pointing out that this is in the Constitution: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Article_160_of_the_Constitution_of_Malaysia Therefore my wife (who was born in Malaysia - British father, Malay mother) who is bumiputera, is CONSTITUTIONALLY Muslim when we're in Malaysia, regardless of her beliefs here in Australia. In regards to Malay Islam being a bit weird, my wife has mentioned that people in Malaysia do have a superstitious side that she felt was at odds with Islamic teaching - things like fortune telling, believing in luck, etc. Also, my mother-in-law has just got back from the Hajj - if anyone has any questions about the experience, I could ask her about it.
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Oct 13, 2015 02:34
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Wow, thank you for the information. I had no idea that it was so entrenched as to be literally part of the Constitution of Malaysia, or how tied in with the politics of race it was. With regard to the implementation of sharia for Muslims in the country, is it relatively lenient or are we talking full-on stoning people and cutting off hands? Or is it more just applied to specifically religious matters or things that tend to be religious matters (marriage, divorce, apostasy, that kind of thing)? Elissimpark posted:In regards to Malay Islam being a bit weird, my wife has mentioned that people in Malaysia do have a superstitious side that she felt was at odds with Islamic teaching - things like fortune telling, believing in luck, etc.
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Oct 13, 2015 03:15
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Tendai posted:Oh cool, thank you for your insights! In the US at least, we REALLY do not hear much in the media about Islam in SE Asia, which is ridiculous considering that Indonesia and Bangladesh together have just over 20% of the worldwide Muslim population. Have you done the Hajj or is it something you're interested in? Would you say that the second group you mentioned (religious but not pushy or showy) are probably the majority as opposed to the more aggressive "ISLAM IS THE LIGHT LET ME TELL YOU ABOUT IT" types? In the "average" Muslim family is arranged marriage a thing and if it is, is it more cultural or more religious based? Sorry, this is a lot of questions! Like I said, we do not hear much in the US about Islam as it's practiced and how it works in day to day life in SE Asia, unfortunately. I haven't done the Hajj, or Umra, but my parents are bugging me to go with them for the latter, sort of a whole family trip kind of thing. Until very recently there was a waiting list to go to Hajj, if you're from a majority Muslim country - there are just too many people who want to go, and not enough space. Apparently, these restrictions have been relaxed recently. Also, my cousin, and my aunt and uncle have just recently come back from the Hajj. And yes, the second group is the majority. Singapore is a very cosmopolitan country, weird in it's mix of progressive Western ideals and conservative Asian values, but part of the national fabric is it's multi-ethnicity and multi-religiousness (is that a word?). Of course, it's not all peachy keen as the government propaganda would like you to believe, but in the most part, Singaporeans are pretty welcoming and accepting of different religions and cultures. What this means is that no one is super pushy about forcing their religion upon others, and discussions about religion tend to be very civil. (In fact, the mufti here in Singapore has received criticism for being too compromising, when it comes to the needs of the Muslim population). And yes, arranged marriage is a thing that still kinda happens, and its both cultural and religious. My parents were an arranged marriage. The attitudes towards it has relaxed a lot when compared to a generation ago, as everyone's gotten more progressive and liberal. My mom has recently been trying to set me up with daughters of friends, but she's not forcing it down my throat. But as far as I can tell, even if it was an arranged marriage, both parties would meet each other first, to see if they're compatible and like each other enough or not. If you don't like your future partner, you can always say no, and then your parents sigh and start looking for someone else. MrNemo posted:Malaysian politics Yeah, the current marrying of religion and politics in Malaysia is worrying, and makes me glad I'm not Malaysian. There's a lot of criticism about politicians and their paid imams who bend and twist the religion to suit their political needs, so they can appease voters and stay in/achieve power. The stories I've heard about some of these imams (and they're only uncorroborated stories, mind you), make them sound positively medieval in their corruption, both religiously and politically. Tendai posted:With regard to the implementation of sharia for Muslims in the country, is it relatively lenient or are we talking full-on stoning people and cutting off hands? Or is it more just applied to specifically religious matters or things that tend to be religious matters (marriage, divorce, apostasy, that kind of thing)? As far as I know, sharia law in Malaysia only applies to religious matters, and only to Muslims. The same for Singapore. So no stoning of people, not cutting off hands, and the death penalty is hanging, not beheading. Zakmonster fucked around with this message at 03:29 on Oct 13, 2015 |
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Oct 13, 2015 03:24
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On that point, the law is only for Muslims but does vary by state. One of the northern states has recently our is just about to introduce hudud (so stoning, chopping off hands, etc.) There's very much a push to introduce more conservative laws and punishments ostensibly to encourage people to be more Islamic. Again it's tied into politics and a lot of money coming from more Salafist sponsored imams who want to push more fundamentalist Islam. That itself is leading to conflict as pro Malay groups are worried about the increasingly Arab nature of practice in some areas, complaining about the increasing prevalence of the Niqab and such. In terms of how strictly laws are enforced, I have one friend who is very careful to not have any alcohol in front of him if there are police nearby. I also knew one last who was arrested with her mother at a restaurant just outside KL when it was raided. They were both drinking wine and at court they were advised the typical punishment was a RM2000 fine. They plead guilty but the judge felt they weren't remorseful so gave them the maximum sentence, RM15000 fine and 5 months in prison. They got a lawyer who got that reduced to RM5000 and no jail time but as they were sentenced on a Friday they had to spend the weekend in jail. Religious law enforcement is pretty similar to regular enforcement, uneven and very open to corruption and abuse, which doesn't tell you much aside from bringing more religion into the courts doesn't fix much by itself. They definitely do have a lot more superstition. Exorcisms are quite a big thing, being possessed by ghosts or evil spirits is a pretty common explanation for mental illnesses and the a big tradition of spiritual healers. Again this is an area you see fundamentalist imams coming into conflict with Malay supremacists where they are otherwise pretty solid allies.
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Oct 13, 2015 09:14
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Tendai, could you go into more detail about the specific sufi school you follow? The little bit about sufism I know from qawalli ( Nusrat! ) and Wikipedia.My wife and I went through a Nusrat phase a couple of years ago. When my mother-in-law found out, she was careful to mention that it was sufi music and that it wasn't proper Islam. Reading the translated lyrics from, say, Shamas-ud Doha, it seems to skirt closely to blasphemy, insomuch as it comes close to out and out worship of Muhammed. Further to the Malaysian religious and political oddness, is what has happened to Anwar Ibrahim, the (now) former Opposition leader. There're not many countries where you'll be taken down politically by a combination of corruption and sodomy charges...
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Oct 13, 2015 12:22
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Are there any rules about sex inside marriage in Islam? Like "forbidden" positions or practices? As a muslim woman, how do you feel about the whole plural wives are OK but plural husbands is an absolute NO! ?
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Oct 13, 2015 14:32
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SE Asia goons, thank you so much again for giving us a rundown in this thread. I'm kind of embarrassed at how little I know about that part of the world in general (in terms of government, day to day life and that sort of thing) and this has been a lot of really interesting information. It's kind of horrifying to read that places are actually trying to introduce things like stoning and such into the mix.BattyKiara posted:Are there any rules about sex inside marriage in Islam? Like "forbidden" positions or practices? As a muslim woman, how do you feel about the whole plural wives are OK but plural husbands is an absolute NO! ? Aside from that, I think just about everyone would say that with husband and wife, you're good to do whatever. Sex is pretty bluntly described as something that is done for pleasure as well as procreation; even in reasonably conservative places I'm fairly sure that women are still allowed to ask for divorce because their husband won't/can't gently caress them. Everything I've read makes it pretty clear that if a husband doesn't take care of his wife's needs and just focuses on his own, he's an rear end in a top hat and not doing right by her and thus not pleasing Allah. This is the biggest difference between "Standard Christianity" and Islam that I can think about in terms of relations between husband and wife; there's more or less no shame attached to sex in marriage, the act itself is not sinful. Interestingly, this is one of the areas that I struggle in. I've had sex and have never been married, and it was consensual and I enjoyed it. It was also wrong. Not just in terms of Islam, but in terms of my piss-poor choices. To me, Islam and its comments on sex and marriage made sense because it implies a deeper connection to the person you're having sex with that I think I have always been missing (because I've chosen piss-poor people to have sex with). But on the other hand, I don't believe in restricting people in that sense. It's something I struggle with and brood on when I get in the right mood. As for the wives: Like Communism, it is a great idea in theory, because it is explicitly stated that if a man can't support each one of his wives equally and cannot treat them with exacting equalness and love, he shouldn't get married. Everything I've read kind of leans towards the idea that one is better because most people aren't going to be angels of fairness and love who can manage that, and my experience with people who have multiple wives (both outside the US and more illicitly inside the US) have confirmed that. Like non-Muslim polyamorous relationships, I can see how it could be really lovely but not well-implemented. I don't agree with it not going both ways, but... this is one of those times where I kind of have to take the unfair with the okay-in-theory, so to speak. I would rather Muslims focused on the importance of treating one wife well. There are two verses in the Qur'an that kind of say this for me. We are not going to touch the "what your right hand possesses" argument at the moment except to say that it's one of those areas where it should not apply because we have moved beyond the point of having slaves and gently caress-captives as human beings: quote:If ye fear that ye shall not be able to deal justly with the orphans, Marry women of your choice, Two or three or four; but if ye fear that ye shall not be able to deal justly (with them), then only one, or (a captive) that your right hands possess, that will be more suitable, to prevent you from doing injustice. (4:3, Yusuf Ali translation) quote:You will never be able to maintain justice among your wives and love them all equally, no matter how hard you try. (4:129) Elissimpark posted:Tendai, could you go into more detail about the specific sufi school you follow? The little bit about sufism I know from qawalli ( Based on what I've read, however, I would identify more with the Chishti school in terms of relations with others. This comes with the caveat that I most emphatically do not agree that you can be Sufi without being Muslim, and the Chishti order is one of the ones that's more liberal and gets incredibly co-opted by what I can only assume are modern-day orientalists who want something mystical and eastern without the whole "Islam" thing attached to it. Chishti practices emphasize being tolerant and welcoming (Chishti shrines/festivals are often/usually open to non-Muslims) but that often gets kind of twisted to the purposes of the same sort of people that claim they can be kabbalists without having to, you know, do the whole Jewish thing. They conveniently ignore that the Chishti tariqah itself pretty explicitly emphasizes that you have to follow the precepts of Islam. Anyhow, the Chishti tariqa originated in what's now Afghanistan around 950 or so, and remains one of the if not the most prominent Sufi tariqahs in southern Asia. It emphasizes tolerance and love in a big way, as well as the equality of all people; Chishti scholars point out that even if someone is in power, a political figure or the like, within the tariqah they are simply another follower, no better or worse than any other. The man who really made it spread into Pakistan and India, Moinuddin Chishti, wrote that a follower of the Chishti tariqah should "never seek any help, charity, or favors from anybody except God. Never go to the courts of kings, but never refuse to bless and help the needy and the poor, the widow, and the orphan, if they come to your door." Like many Sufi orders there is emphasis on what I suppose you could call the beauty of the world/creation/Allah, not unlike the sort of thing Rumi wrote about in his poetry. Omer Tarin is a modern Chishti/Qadiri mystic who writes gorgeous poetry on those lines: quote:On Your Asking As for blasphemy.... depends on who you ask and which tariqah you're talking about I think I mentioned earlier in the thread that I don't know of any sect of Islam that just totally discounts Sufism as a thing and says "no it is entirely un-Islamic." However, that does not mean they're cool with everyone. There are very conservative, traditionalist Sufi orders as well, and they fit in better with conservative Muslim societies. So it really depends on who you ask. Some people see Rumi's poetry as transcendent, some people see it as coming really close to just being out and out too romantic.
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Oct 13, 2015 15:33
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BattyKiara posted:Are there any rules about sex inside marriage in Islam? Like "forbidden" positions or practices? As a muslim woman, how do you feel about the whole plural wives are OK but plural husbands is an absolute NO! ? Some reasons why plural wives are tolerated but plural husbands are forbidden.... First, we have to understand that there is a time and context to the allowance of this idea. In ancient times (and even today), it was the man's duty to financially support the family, not he woman's. A man's money belongs to his family (and wives) but her money belongs to her and her husband cannot lay claim to it for any reason. When there were (are) wars, the men would bear most of the burden of fighting, leaving many women without husbands responsible to support them and their kids. Add to this that a man and a woman, not married to each other, are not allowed to live in the same household if they are not directly related. Rather than keeping women on the streets as beggers, marriage was one way to provide charity. A marriage contract does not have to include sexual relations between the two parties and can have a simple intent to provide financially in the same household. Of course, if at a later date they two decide to consummate the marriage that is up to them. Second, is probably the more important reason which is that of the rights of the children to their identity, which i spoke of earlier in this thread. Children born to a woman who has had multiple male partners would not naturally know which man they belonged or is responsible for supporting them, whereas there is no confusion where there is one male and multiple wives. Regardless of the reasons for marriage, a man cannot take a second wife unless he can first secure agreement with his first wife to allow it. After which, he has to treat all wives and their children equally, financially, emotionally and every other way possible.
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Oct 13, 2015 16:48
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Tendai posted:Oh cool, thank you for your insights! In the US at least, we REALLY do not hear much in the media about Islam in SE Asia, which is ridiculous considering that Indonesia and Bangladesh together have just over 20% of the worldwide Muslim population. Have you done the Hajj or is it something you're interested in? Would you say that the second group you mentioned (religious but not pushy or showy) are probably the majority as opposed to the more aggressive "ISLAM IS THE LIGHT LET ME TELL YOU ABOUT IT" types? In the "average" Muslim family is arranged marriage a thing and if it is, is it more cultural or more religious based? Sorry, this is a lot of questions! Like I said, we do not hear much in the US about Islam as it's practiced and how it works in day to day life in SE Asia, unfortunately. Imagine ordering delivery from halal McDonalds or halal KFC.  A lot of fast food is halal in Singapore.Singapore is 17% Muslim but a large number of places are halal and the grocery stores often have a halal section. Religious practice is protected and every major religious holiday is a national holiday. woot \o/
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Oct 13, 2015 17:01
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Amun Khonsu posted:every major religious holiday is a national holiday. woot \o/ That's also pretty neat about the availability of halal food. In the US that REALLY depends on where you are. Like New Mexico, where I am, I imagine the biggest two cities have a Middle Eastern food market of some kind that has halal foods, maybe a couple restaurants, but that's likely it. Bigger cities with bigger Muslim populations have more, obviously, but I can't think of any like, franchised nationwide restaurants that specifically have halal options or anything.
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Oct 13, 2015 17:07
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Two halal questions: 1) I've always been under the impression that, generally speaking, anything which is kosher is also going to be halal, because the slaughtering mechanics are the same(slit throat and bleed) and because Jews are People of the Book so they can slaughter halal meat. Is that actually the case? 2) What's entailed in keeping a halal kitchen? For example, a strict kosher kitchen basically needs to keep two sets of everything because they can't ever cross the meat and dairy streams. Does keeping a halal kitchen have any requirements along those lines?
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Oct 13, 2015 18:39
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This is really interesting stuff about Malaysia, thanks goons! Apologies for being late, but the last day of Umra wasn't really eventful, after returning from Al Taif, we basically relaxed for the night in Mecca, and on the last day did the tawaf. Much like starting the Umra you end it with 7 laps around the Kaaba, its also the perfect time to try and grab some Zamzam water to bring back with you, never did really like the taste of it but they are pretty nice gifts to people if you want to do that. It used to be people had their own containers they took back to their home countries, but nowadays they stopped all that, because by the time you're back home at least one container was broken and leaking all over the place. You pay what amounts to 1 dollar for 5 liters thats specially packaged for flight, and each traveler is now restricted to one container (or two if the airline will allow it, YMMV).One thing of note about Mecca is this: http://www.trekearth.com/gallery/Middle_East/Saudi_Arabia/East/Makkah/Makkah/photo1454017.htm I'm gonna link this for reference because its very hard to find on google, they're all around Mecca. These sort of red brick, poorly built buildings is what happens when pilgrims decide they're not going back to their country and would rather spend the rest of their lives praying in Mecca. Its illegal, but authorities are incapable of solving this phenomenon. Also yeah, with regards to arranged marriage, its awful as hell but also the norm. Gonna use me as an example, but my mother basically arranged my marriage because she is good friends with another family. Naturally this leads to a dysfunctional marriage (its a huge issue here). Usually married couples either live with it or they go their separate path after marriage, for me personally thats what we agreed to before marriage, parents lose guardianship after that so usually women can do whatever they want, and thankfully the authorities don't get involved. Khizan posted:Two halal questions: 1) Halal implies the animal is already slaughtered, if the animal was slaughtered according to kosher it automatically becomes halal. 2) No such restriction in Islam, but i guess you have to clean the kitchen equipment if it has been used to prepare pork or something, just a guess though. Fizzil fucked around with this message at 18:50 on Oct 13, 2015 |
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Oct 13, 2015 18:39
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Khizan posted:Two halal questions: Fizzil posted:http://www.trekearth.com/gallery/Middle_East/Saudi_Arabia/East/Makkah/Makkah/photo1454017.htm It's interesting reading your perspective on the matter; the only person I know on a pretty personal level who had their marriage arranged is a woman from Turkey who stayed with us for a year when she was in high school, she and I kept in touch and are pretty good friends. Her marriage was arranged and she's talked to me about it some, how she found it kind of beneficial because without being in love in the Western sense, she was able to look at his flaws/good things more objectively, she thought. But her family was both very rich and fairly westernized so I don't think there was much pressure on her to choose this or that person, and I doubt her parents would have gone off the deep end if she chose someone they didn't suggest. Quite frankly, given how hard it is to date as a dwarf in the US and my increasing age, there have been times when I've lived in bigger cities where I've been tempted to go into the imam of the nearest mosque and just be all "Hey okay can you help me find someone to marry because I am intellectually/emotionally lonely as poo poo and tired of trying on my own and only getting creepy fetish people and neckbeards."
Tendai fucked around with this message at 19:05 on Oct 13, 2015 |
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Oct 13, 2015 19:03
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Tendai posted:I have to admit that would be nice. All our federal holidays that are religious based, that I can think of, are Christian in origin. It'd be nice to be guaranteed time for Eid al-Fitr if other people are getting the same thing for Christmas or similar. Singapore is so invested in making sure that all the major religions its citizens represent have an equal amount of religious public holidays. Muslims have Eid and Hajj, Hindus have Diwali and Vesak, Christians have Christmas and Easter, and the Chinese only have Chinese New Year but its a 2-day holiday. And yes, a large portion Malays still maintain some cultural superstitions that aren't in accordance with Islam, but I attribute that to a lack of proper education on the religion. Malay culture is generally really laid-back (I'd call us lazy, even), so getting someone to go out of their way to learn more details about their own religion can be challenging. It doesn't help that a lot of Malaysia is still rural villages, so they're still a bit backwater. Another interesting thing about being Muslim in a region where most people used to be animists, is the whole thing about demon possession and exorcism. Well actually they're not demons, they're actually spirits - jinn - some manner of being that shares our world, but are separated by some kind of invisible barrier. We can't see them, they can't see us, they'll be as freaked out by us as we would be by them. In any case, everyone I know has a story about how someone they knew had their house or body possessed by one of these spirits, usually because they were targeted by some vague family rivalry, and these spirits were set upon them. There are imams who specialize in ridding people of these possessions. I've never personally seen on happen, so I'm skeptical, but it's a very popular piece of our culture.
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Oct 13, 2015 19:10
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Zakmonster posted:Singapore is so invested in making sure that all the major religions its citizens represent have an equal amount of religious public holidays. Muslims have Eid and Hajj, Hindus have Diwali and Vesak, Christians have Christmas and Easter, and the Chinese only have Chinese New Year but its a 2-day holiday. Zakmonster posted:And yes, a large portion Malays still maintain some cultural superstitions that aren't in accordance with Islam, but I attribute that to a lack of proper education on the religion. Malay culture is generally really laid-back (I'd call us lazy, even), so getting someone to go out of their way to learn more details about their own religion can be challenging. It doesn't help that a lot of Malaysia is still rural villages, so they're still a bit backwater. Is animism still practiced by people as uhhh, their "main religion" so to speak? There's got to be a better way to word that but I can't figure it out. Also that is probably off-topic but now I'm curious.
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Oct 13, 2015 19:22
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Zakmonster posted:Malay culture is generally really laid-back (I'd call us lazy, even)... Born to lepak...
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Oct 13, 2015 22:10
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Offhand, but as I think about it, I regret not titling this thread "I slam, you slam, we all slam for Islam." People in general who might have witnessed or not witnessed this (probably more in the US than anywhere else): I was reading something after a GBS/Rowdy Trout thread about western women who go to marry Daesh fighters and I started wondering, post-9/11 when Islam was REALLY brought to the forefront of the national discourse in the US, if there had been a noticeable uptick or downward trend in conversions. I'm betting on the former, I'd just be curious if anyone noticed that personally. EDIT: Well that was a lot of commas.
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Oct 13, 2015 22:20
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you can ask a mod to change it, i almost asked one to change the Catholodox thread to Welcome Potato and then someone told me it was fake
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Oct 13, 2015 22:22
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HEY GAL posted:you can ask a mod to change it, i almost asked one to change the Catholodox thread to Welcome Potato and then someone told me it was fake
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Oct 13, 2015 22:25
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So what does Islam say about body modification? Even basic stuff like tats and piercings.
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Oct 13, 2015 22:25
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Tendai posted:There's some fundamental thing here that I'm not following in terms of knowing what the hell that bolded part means. http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/news/photoshopped-welcome-potato-pope-photo-827201  the joke is that the word for pope and the word for potato are extremely similar in spanish
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Oct 13, 2015 22:28
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Flagrant Abuse posted:So what does Islam say about body modification? Even basic stuff like tats and piercings. quote:It was narrated that Abu Juhayfah (may Allah be pleased with him) said: “The Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) cursed the one who does tattoos, and the one who has a tattoo done. (Bukhari) Piercings are somewhat more accepted from what I know, just about every Muslim woman I know has pierced ears no matter what country she's in. Opinions seem to be divided on that too, more than I would have thought based on the percentage of women I know who have pierced ears. I'm guessing the reasoning is something along the lines of it not being permanent because it can grow closed. I suppose you could make the same argument for tattoos, though their removal is a much more arduous (and not naturally-occurring) process. As for myself, I have nothing pierced (I was horribly afraid of needles and then just didn't feel the need once I got over it) but I have a lot of tattoos and someday want to get more when I can afford it. HEY GAL posted:http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/news/photoshopped-welcome-potato-pope-photo-827201
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Oct 13, 2015 22:36
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Forgive my ignorance but what IS sharia law? I have a bunch of lovely right wing people on my Facebook who post things like "Ban sharia law in the US" but I don't really understand what it means?
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Oct 14, 2015 01:01
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JustinMorgan posted:Forgive my ignorance but what IS sharia law? I have a bunch of lovely right wing people on my Facebook who post things like "Ban sharia law in the US" but I don't really understand what it means? Shari'ah is a collection laws that govern Muslims personally, socially and/or nationally. It is developed based on the Qur'an, assorted Hadith and in consultation with experts in technology, medicine, economy and many other facets of modern life. Roughly 10% of Shariah is religious law that cannot be changed, such as the 5 pillars of Islam, our 6 basic beliefs and things related to religion. The rest of Shari'ah is not religious and can evolve based on the times, necessity or people who submit themselves to Shari'ah, such as civil and criminal law. Perhaps unlike Christian Canon Law, Shari'ah is not "God's law", but contains laws that are based on God's revelations. In Islam, there cannot be a theocracy. God does not rule the earth, but has placed man (beginning with Adam) on the earth to rule in justice. The aim of Shari'ah is to be a guide towards that goal. Shari'an isnt much different than any western legal system, with the exception that it is based on the religion of Islam. Amun Khonsu fucked around with this message at 02:20 on Oct 14, 2015 |
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Oct 14, 2015 02:09
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Flagrant Abuse posted:So what does Islam say about body modification? Even basic stuff like tats and piercings. Body modification outside of necessity (like tattoos) is generally considered forbidden. Ear piercings (even nose according to some in South East Asia) are allowed for women, but other piercings also are generally considered forbidden. If someone already has them, however, they are not required to remove them or modify them, except if it is something incredibly vulgar. Amun Khonsu fucked around with this message at 02:16 on Oct 14, 2015 |
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Oct 14, 2015 02:14
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JustinMorgan posted:Forgive my ignorance but what IS sharia law? I have a bunch of lovely right wing people on my Facebook who post things like "Ban sharia law in the US" but I don't really understand what it means? What Amun Khonsu pointed out is right on; every Muslim who adheres to their faith is practicing sharia because it governs not just criminal stuff but civil, spiritual, ethical and other areas as well. Actually, Huffington Post had a good breakdown of the different aspects that makes me not have to write it out SO: Sharia is comprised of five main branches: Adab (behavior, morals and manners), ibadah (ritual worship), i'tiqadat (beliefs), mu'amalat (transactions and contracts) and 'uqubat (punishments). The Qur'an does not say that sharia must be imposed, rather it just says that whatever government is imposed must be just. Not only to Muslims, but to everyone. To be honest, I know the basics of concepts involved but sharia as a whole is the kind of thing that people spend their lives studying just one of the branches, the same way lawyers in the US and other place will focus on water law, property law, criminal law and the like. Like any law system it can be interpreted in ways that are moderate and ways that are severe, essentially. EDIT: Another thing I just thought of. The majority of scholars I've read (who are not propping up regimes like Saudi Arabia) have essentially said that it doesn't apply to anyone who isn't a willing Muslim anyhow. Tendai fucked around with this message at 03:03 on Oct 14, 2015 |
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Oct 14, 2015 03:01
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Tendai posted:That's really kind of cool. I hesitate about religious holidays being a public holiday in general, but if it's gonna be done, drat it, do it for all of them. Yes. If I am not horribly wrong, there are some tribes/villages in Borneo who are still animists. Amun Khonsu posted:Body modification outside of necessity (like tattoos) is generally considered forbidden. Ear piercings (even nose according to some in South East Asia) are allowed for women, but other piercings also are generally considered forbidden. If someone already has them, however, they are not required to remove them or modify them, except if it is something incredibly vulgar. I have had so many conversations about what tattoos I would get, if I could get tattoos.
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Oct 14, 2015 03:17
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Amun Khonsu posted:Body modification outside of necessity (like tattoos) is generally considered forbidden. Ear piercings (even nose according to some in South East Asia) are allowed for women, but other piercings also are generally considered forbidden. If someone already has them, however, they are not required to remove them or modify them, except if it is something incredibly vulgar.
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Oct 14, 2015 03:58
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