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Maybe have a time limit where whatever your Ancestor summoned in the Darkest Dungeon wakes up and just destroys everything. Having it get stronger the longer you go is awkward but having a set time after which you've lost, say a number of weeks, gives an appreciable lose condition and gives you a reason to maximise profits/minimise losses without actually making the tactics surrounding those any more difficult to deal with.
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Oct 13, 2015 15:29
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I'd like it to be something more then just "YOU LOOSE." state. Maybe some kind of nigh-immortal antagonist launches herself against your staging ground and you need to fight her off tooth and nail to survive? Basically, think XCOM's base defence (any of them really), an army of cultists at her command, clearing out each of the town's points of interest with a big battle with the cult leader and all of her eldritch might at the end. Hell, it could just be her attacking you single-handedly. But killing her is not the end, and she mockingly retreats to her part of the Darkest Dungeon to reform and recover her powers. Gameplay wise, a bar representing the passage of time, which gets set back by beating her but only by so much. Say if she attacks in week 7, beating her puts that back to week 3. Could also make sure she doesn't attack until a certain amount of time has passed, and give the player early warning when her attack is imminent. Killing her properly could be the prelude to the finale too, which'd cap her off nicely, but sit with a thumb up your arse for long enough and she'll grow strong enough to wipe the floor with your heroes and obliterate the town.
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Oct 13, 2015 15:38
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I was thinking that the final boss wakes up on week X, or whenever you kill the last bosses. At that point, you have to fight it, no more recruiting, upgrading, sanity improving. If you've killed all the little bosses, the big bad is beatable with an OK team, if not, it is really strong. But damage carries over between battles, so you can throw wave after wave of heroes at it, and if you kill it before you run out of heroes, you still win.
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Oct 13, 2015 15:49
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FWIW, Rogue and Nethack are both way more repetitive and boring and glacial than DD. Nethack in particular has a fact that I like to point to in situations like this: https://alt.org/nethack/topdeaths.html Death causes 1-8 are all very early game causes - except for 'a wand', which can technically happen any time, but is infinitely more likely to happen before you hit level 6 or so due to you being under-geared. Then death cause 9 is 'beat the game.' What this is indicative of is that after you beat the 10 levels of the dungeon or so, there's relatively little that can seriously checkmate you in Nethack. All of the big bosses have no more than 0.006% of all recorded deaths ascribed to them. If we were to talk about what ends the vast majority of games in nethack, undoubtedly the answer would be 'boredom.' I don't say this to defend DD - I still haven't been able to take a single game past about week 50 due to apathy and burnout - but to highlight that the problem folks are touching on is an old one and it's hard to handle.
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Oct 13, 2015 16:10
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Yeah its been a year and i'm looking forward to a difficulty level that isn't 'sandbox'
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Oct 13, 2015 16:37
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Just give the game a win state and a lose state and i'm pretty sure that'll sate most people to be honest.
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Oct 13, 2015 16:45
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The time pressure is that you have a finite number of hours upon Earth and should have better things to do than spend extra time grinding in a videogame.
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Oct 13, 2015 16:49
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Fleve posted:I like the plague doctor's stun, but that's it. After the two back rows are dead, there's not much point to the doctor, his blight is usually too late to make any difference. quote:killed by a large dog called Hitler Clanpot Shake fucked around with this message at 16:52 on Oct 13, 2015 |
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Oct 13, 2015 16:50
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Gabriel Pope posted:The time pressure is that you have a finite number of hours upon Earth and should have better things to do than spend extra time grinding in a videogame. 
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Oct 13, 2015 16:52
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Clanpot Shake posted:Did you know the plague grenades stack? 8/12 damage a turn is amazing on bosses and mooks alike. If you can swing 2 plague doctors in the back it's absolutely devastating. There's also the single grenade ability that puts blight on a single front row target, so they're not totally useless if the back row is empty. A single plague doctor also pairs well with an Occultist's healing to clear up the bleeding. Huh. I never thought that the solution to one Plague doctor in the team being mediocre would be to bring a second plague doctor, but with the grenades stacking I can definitely see that being nice. Even just stunning and blighting the whole two back rows looks good, as that will usually soften them up enough to be finished off in the next round. Now to find more plague doctors. I haven't recruited them in 'weeks' and knowing my luck with recruiting, I'll probably never see another one again.
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Oct 13, 2015 16:59
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The least common deaths are pretty amazing sometimes.quote:15132 1 0.000 killed by a mastodon called 'Lill Hitler'
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Oct 13, 2015 17:03
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What coolguye said is sort of what I was touching on. I can just look at crawl as well, how much of a given game past a couple early game roadblocks (not dying to orc priests or ogres, and maybe the first hydra you find) is just auto-explore and then kill with my 1 or 2 kill options. There are some specific spots where I'll be careful and play manually (branch ends, a couple of the 'gotcha' spots like vaults) but most of the time you just cruise around without being threatened at all. An unexpected spawn or occasional big hit from some monsters might be a bit of a panic moment, but unless it 1-shots you it is much easier to handle than rough rounds in DD. The extended game is a bit of a different beast, but also it is entirely optional. I guess it is a bit of a genre problem, and if you don't enjoy the combat system and the setting then take a pass on it for one where you like those. To Fleve, here are my thoughts on the stuff you posted last page. It occurred to me to mention that you can swap skills in mid dungeon, just not mid fight. Leper works nicely when you've got other people mucking with the enemy positioning, or when you want a guy that can take care of himself for your party setup. He hits really hard and you can often not really have to worry about him like you do other guys. Plague doctor and dot's in general start becoming more useful in higher dungeons, where stuff is living longer (a lot of stuff has prot at higher levels). Her blight dot gets up to 5/rnd. Plague doctor's dot cure is pretty useful once the enemy ones start doing a lot more damage (base heal + prevented damage can often be more than the other guys heal for in a turn). Stun as you noticed is great, the shuffle is a good option but I usually just stun. She has some solid trinket options (I like the +40% stun/+20% blight chance one) that enable her to land her utility stuff really reliably. Basically I'd make sure to keep 1 in the roster, muddle through until the higher levels. At the very least, she is great in the cove where she lets you ignore the giant crab (also in other areas against enemies that stack dot damage through the roof). Jester is interesting, and you can make lunge do some ok damage, but his biggest thing is he is really mobile, and can be setup to do something useful from anywhere. His in combat stress healing is ok (and can be trinket support) and his camp skills are really strong for stress management. His base damage just isn't going to get up there, but against high prot his bleeds aren't terrible, and dirk stab can hit a lot of spots. I'm the least sure on how to really get the most out of jester myself. Hound man is pretty great, you can do some damage stacking stuff that I'll go over below, but his mark has a -prot debuff that can make some guys a lot easier, and his guard ability can be really solid to prevent damage. +70% scouting on his camp skill can be really huge, and the surprise buff can be pretty useful as well. Dog treat gives you a solid attack option for a boss or big fight. He is pretty flexible for positioning, I usually run him in 2 or 4 depending on if I want to bring stun or stress heal. So usually the idea with the marking classes is that you want someone else doing the marking for them. In general I like using occultist for this, though sometimes you can take another marking class and have them run support/fuckery (bounty with mark/stun/push/pull or hound with mark/guard/heal/stress heal). Ideally you have some +spd for your marker, and -spd for your hitter, and now you're getting a solid hit out of your support character. I generally don't try to have more than 1 guy trying to use marking damage stuff, because things usually die too fast for your second damage guy to be getting more mileage than just a normal heavy hitter. For example, I can take an arbalest, give her the +20% dmg in rank 4 class trinket, +20% dmg bracer, personal camp skill for another +20%, then maybe a man-at-arms for another +20%. This also gives +20 acc and +8 crit, now we look at sniper shot. It starts out at +50% dmg and +10% (5 base, 5 vs marked) crit against marked, but scales up to +100% dmg and +17% crit along with the base crit on the class (9.5%). So you've got a hit doing +180% with 34.5% crit. Even at lower levels you can get pretty close to that with just camp buffs. Bounty hunter and hound master can have similar setups going on, though their personal camp buffs aren't as good and arbalest naturally has a slow speed. Arbalest-Occultist-Man at Arms-Hellion is a party I've had a lot of success with if you want to try some of it out. Can hit all over the enemy position, is pretty tanky, and has some great camp skills to play with.
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Oct 13, 2015 17:42
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Clanpot Shake posted:Did you know the plague grenades stack? 8/12 damage a turn is amazing on bosses and mooks alike. I need some clarification on this. DoTs stack, but they don't roll the duration do they? Meaning if I have a dot that lasts 3 turns and I stack it with itself on round 2, the first dot still expires after 3 ticks.
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Oct 13, 2015 17:44
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Boozie posted:I need some clarification on this. DoTs stack, but they don't roll the duration do they? Meaning if I have a dot that lasts 3 turns and I stack it with itself on round 2, the first dot still expires after 3 ticks. Correct. The tooltips are not super clear about this.
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Oct 13, 2015 17:53
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e: well there you goBoozie posted:I need some clarification on this. DoTs stack, but they don't roll the duration do they? Meaning if I have a dot that lasts 3 turns and I stack it with itself on round 2, the first dot still expires after 3 ticks. I'm not 100% certain on the exact mechanics of it, but I ticked The Hag for 12 with only a single Plague Doctor. It was the final hit, so I don't know if it was the last. If nobody else answers I'll try to figure it out when I get home.
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Oct 13, 2015 17:53
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quote:18123 1 0.000 killed by a water elemental called oh for fucks sake not again die you fucker
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Oct 13, 2015 18:09
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Clanpot Shake posted:killed by a large dog called Hitler https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vspxFHqQh4Y What a way to go.
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Oct 13, 2015 20:11
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Magical Zero posted:I don't think that's necessarily a common issue in roguelikes, for instance games like Dungeon Crawl has a bunch of different terrain with various properties that you can (try to) use to your advantage. And even if sameness was a major problem the differences in enemies, items, shrines, traps, etc more than make up for it. Not to mention the ability to actually traverse terrain in different ways - ie. flying, teleporting, jumping. In this game you can... shuffle forwards in the same direction. Ah, I see what you are saying. I was mostly drawing from my own experience with similar lighter roguelikes such as Binding of Isaac, FTL, and Dungeon of the Endless where yeah, there can be obstacles or an environmental change or two, but the gameplay seems to be largely derived from the player(s), the makeup of their opponents, and the available equipment. It seems like this game has more in common with those than something like DCSS or Nethack or whatever.
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Oct 13, 2015 20:42
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No matter how the argument is presented, I can't get behind the idea of a lose condition. The way random chance can end up breaking you, there feels like way too much at stake if it could all completely vanish in an instant. I won't mince words: I'd be pissed to lose 20-30 hours of progress. Now, if they significantly revised the progression so that characters level up after 2 Short dungeons, 1 Medium dungeon, and a Long dungeon gave you a level and put you within 1 Short dungeon of another level-up; if skill, equipment, and town upgrades, and use of town facilities were about 40% of the current cost; if you could pay a premium to get more than one non-permanent negative quirk removed in a single visit to the Sanitarium; if every boss fight and Shambler encounter guaranteed an Ancestral trinket drop; and if instead of having to beat each boss 3 times, each dungeon just had one boss for Veteran-level and one for Champion-level that were always accessible; and if you had like 40 weeks beat all 8 bosses and complete the Darkest Dungeon, then I could be in. I'd be fine if it was basically impossible to max out the town and you had to prioritize which upgrades you wanted. Then, to keep the pace up, every time you downed 2 bosses, new recruits would come in at one level higher, so after beating all 8 current bosses, you'd recruit new party members at level 4 (you'd still have to pay to upgrade their skills and armor). This would make darkness parties and Long missions more appealing because the limited number of weeks would make the prospect of getting more XP, gold, and relics in a single week a legitimate strategic choice. But there would have to be a lot of trimming and streamlining. I wouldn't object to a lose condition if things were balanced around an experience lasting 10-12 hours, but that would represent a significant overhaul to basically every facet of gameplay. As the game stands right now, no way would I be okay with a lose condition. Time_pants fucked around with this message at 11:13 on Oct 14, 2015 |
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Oct 14, 2015 11:08
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Just have the lose condition be "a boss has spawned, you have x weeks (four, perhaps?) to get in that dungeon and kill it". There you go, multiple attempts, makes you think about team compositions. Have it check to see what level your guys are first before spawning it so you don't get hosed with "oh poo poo, its a level 1 boss and all my guys are level 6".
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Oct 14, 2015 11:49
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dogstile posted:Just have the lose condition be "a boss has spawned, you have x weeks (four, perhaps?) to get in that dungeon and kill it". All your level 6 guys die attempting to kill the boss, now you're stuck with level 1 recruits. What now?
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Oct 14, 2015 12:03
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THE BAR posted:All your level 6 guys die attempting to kill the boss, now you're stuck with level 1 recruits. What now? You lose. It's not like what i'm suggesting stops you from running away to lick your wounds and once you get up that high you usually have two teams capable of hitting at level six regardless.
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Oct 14, 2015 12:32
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add the lose condition, but give the players an option to turn it off when they create a campaign
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Oct 14, 2015 12:38
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the option should be called "Baby mode" and have an undocumented feature of making the characters wear diapers over their clothes
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Oct 14, 2015 12:38
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This game is too slow and long for loss conditions like these.
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Oct 14, 2015 12:58
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Darkest Dungeon already has a loss condition, which is that if enough of my level 5/6 adventurers die, I'm never playing the game again, cause gently caress grinding to get back to that point.
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Oct 14, 2015 15:02
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RottenK posted:the option should be called "Baby mode" and have an undocumented feature of making the characters wear diapers over their clothes The abdl crowd might like that quite a bit. I haven't seen my characters triggered in forever, does getting hit while masochistic reduce stress?
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Oct 14, 2015 17:19
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Ramc posted:This game is too slow and long for loss conditions like these. I'd be up for a "short mode" game, where you start with a bunch of money and heirlooms and you invest those in leveled-up adventurers, hamlet upgrades and trinkets before the game starts. Apropos of nothing: Are traits gained random (besides the diseases, or specific traits that you get from specific curios), or does it depend on the performance of your team whether you get good or bad traits?
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Oct 14, 2015 17:51
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Completely loving random. Have a good run? How about your whole team loses their minds. Have fun paying your profits to the sanitarium.
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Oct 14, 2015 19:11
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What's the strategy for dealing with negative quirks? Pay out the nose to get them removed or just live with them? I've got a bunch of guys up to level 3 but they had a rough early couple levels and all have 5 negatives with 2-3 reinforced. They don't seem totally debilitating (no kleptos, thankfully). What determines what quirks you get at the end of the mission? Seems totally random if it's positive or negative or one of each.
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Oct 14, 2015 19:12
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Clanpot Shake posted:What's the strategy for dealing with negative quirks? Pay out the nose to get them removed or just live with them? I've got a bunch of guys up to level 3 but they had a rough early couple levels and all have 5 negatives with 2-3 reinforced. They don't seem totally debilitating (no kleptos, thankfully). Some of both. It takes a lot of grinding to be able to afford removing all of them, so screw that. Really nasty ones get treated (preferably before they get locked) but the rest just get lived with. Also, yeah, new quirks are totally random as far as anyone can tell. That may or may not get changed in the future.
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Oct 14, 2015 19:14
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If it ain't broke, don't fix it. I have a few level 6ers who have no negative traits because they were painful like acc or prot loss. Then there's my Dismas, who believes he is possessed by a demon, doesn't believe in God, and has a couple other must interact with weird poo poo perks. Oddly they don't proc often, so I've left him the insane wreck he is since it doesn't interfere with business at all.
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Oct 14, 2015 19:18
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It may be a false pattern, but I've noticed I seem to get more positive quirks if I end the mission with under 50 stress. Quirks themselves seem quite random. With regard to negative quirks, just consider what they are on the character. A plague doc gets reduced bleed or blight? That's what you have Battlefield Medicine for you baby, get back out there. A leper gets bad eyes that reduces his ranged to hit? I'll buy you a pair of glasses when you get your driver's license you whiner, grab that sword and get back to work. Sometimes it makes sense to just shift someone's role in regard to quirks too. If a bounty hunter loses melee accuracy I'll move him to flashbang and hook duty, for example. Or if someone loses speed, they don't get to heal any more. Stuff like that.
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Oct 14, 2015 19:21
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Release date: January 16th 2016 https://twitter.com/DarkestDungeon/status/654364229240164352 Also the lord-tier class is unveiled: Abomination. Hopefully it'll give an alternative to PROT subversion outside of needing a dogman.
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Oct 14, 2015 20:54
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Solution: give the player time-sensitive missions with token rewards that start general and become more and more specific as you complete them until you've cleared all the content and Win. Mess it up and your fail state is it's exactly the same but there's an achievement you can't get now
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Oct 14, 2015 21:24
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Highwang posted:Also the lord-tier class is unveiled: Abomination. Bleh, don't like the sound of this. They avoided putting in wizards and druids, but an overtly evil/monstrous class honestly sounds like a much bigger breach of the setting. Gotta do what the idiot who donated $5,000 says I guess!
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Oct 14, 2015 22:02
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Snow Job posted:Bleh, don't like the sound of this. They avoided putting in wizards and druids, but an overtly evil/monstrous class honestly sounds like a much bigger breach of the setting. Gotta do what the idiot who donated $5,000 says I guess! I hope its something on the lines of an Eldritch-caused Leper. A "Physical" Occultist if you will.
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Oct 14, 2015 22:16
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Thyrork posted:I hope its something on the lines of an Eldritch-caused Leper. A "Physical" Occultist if you will. That's my assumption. A hamlet dweller that got experimented on or tainted, looking for payback.
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Oct 14, 2015 22:26
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Snow Job posted:Bleh, don't like the sound of this. They avoided putting in wizards and druids, but an overtly evil/monstrous class honestly sounds like a much bigger breach of the setting. Gotta do what the idiot who donated $5,000 says I guess! Do we know anything about the class other than the name, or are you simply vaulting to your own conclusions and getting upset at them
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Oct 14, 2015 22:29
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DOWN JACKET FETISH posted:Do we know anything about the class other than the name, or are you simply vaulting to your own conclusions and getting upset at them do you think that someone who pays $5000 to put their special snowflake class in the game is likely to design something good i mean, it's not impossible, but so far almost all of the stuff designed for kickstarted games by their high-tier backers was somewhere between bleh and embarrassingly awful
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Oct 14, 2015 22:40
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