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Mitt Romney posted:The 10 hour work requirement makes Hillary's plan much more likely to pass in congress since it makes the students have "skin in the game". It won't pass since she'll run into the same stuff that Obama did. Republicans hate her. 10 hour work week or 1000 work week, who cares. You're dealing with people who think "opposite of demo Prez" 24/7. Pretending that there's chances and perfect vision is dumb as hell so why not just go with someone who's clear about what the problems are instead of arguing at a halfway point instead of an extreme. It's like 101 Haggling. I don't want another sleepy time tea president when the public wants more.
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Oct 14, 2015 23:13
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Job Truniht posted:I don't pay tuition and I get paid for my work. I don't know where you got that. My incorrect has linits in what they want to pay because of benefits, even if I get funding through AFOSR. Congrats, you're already working 10 hours a week, you are a success story for Hillary's plan.
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Oct 14, 2015 23:14
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10 hours working for the government a week, the only people who don't have skin in the game are the intellectually bankrupt who think government is a problem and not the thing keeping us from being the Republican debates 24/7.
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Oct 14, 2015 23:17
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RuanGacho posted:10 hours working for the government a week, the only people who don't have skin in the game are the intellectually bankrupt who think government is a problem and not the thing keeping us from being the Republican debates 24/7. You work for the university. Not the government. Universities, even public ones, might as well be corporations run by conservatives.
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Oct 14, 2015 23:22
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Nintendo Kid posted:The 10 hours is not about tuition. It's about everything else: class fees, books, food, housing, additional materials for certain degrees (e.g. art students will need materials for their preferred media). The point is that it shouldn't cost more than you can get from 10 hours of entry level work a week to afford your entire life during college. Right but the subsidy to make the tuition free is coming from the same pot of federal money is it not? computer parts posted:A lot of what makes an engineering degree hard is trying to do it in 4 years (even if most sane institutions look at 6 year rates). There's no reason why you couldn't extend the recommended length of time for those degrees, especially if college is free. This is definitely true but if the standard becomes 6 years these programs are going to get hammered by conservatives at the state and federal level for using "50% more resources than 4 year programs." I graduated in 4 years in an engineering discipline and worked in a lab ~10-20 hours a week for most of my time there (not for pay) and it sucked and I wouldn't wish it on anyone or do undergrad like that again if given the chance. The average 4-year graduation rate for most "4 year universities" is still under 50%, but I can't find any metrics that break down what type of student graduates in 4 or 5 or 6 other than looking at specialty engineering schools vs large public universities vs small private universities. Many of the state tuition programs (like HOPE et al) are capped at 4 years as it is and probably don't have the money to extend to 6 for the majority of students. Presumably the language of this program wouldn't allow "free tuition until you get your degree," so how do you (fairly) build in stopping points and limits? I pushed to finish in four years because I had an academic scholarship and that's how long it lasted. I know a lot of other people who did the same so they'd finish before their HOPE funding ran out. Do you blanket make the limit 6 years? That's going to make the bill harder to pass than four years and the first point of compromise will probably be to scale it back to 4 years.
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Oct 14, 2015 23:24
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Job Truniht posted:You work for the university. Not the government. Universities, even public ones, might as well be corporations run by conservatives. No I'm saying make the proposal include civic service and make those civic service jobs extra enticing so it gets more and more people involved in government because right now there's an entire political party dedicated to sticking their head in the sand and pretending everything would work better if the government adhered to the laffer curve of human resources.
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Oct 14, 2015 23:29
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Job Truniht posted:People don't understand that universities are already insanely profitable and even basically don't have to pay their students or even professors to dole out papers that attract even more money and prestige. Hell even the private sector can take a massive tax break for it when they offer money. most colleges are actually barely getting by.
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Oct 14, 2015 23:30
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In the final draft of the Compact, I assume the work requirement will be able to be filled through work-study, on-campus jobs, off-campus jobs or verified community service, similar to how many scholarship work requirements function. The 10 hour a week will be tuned into, say, 100 hours per semester requirement (which is less than 10 hours per week, but I suspect the 10 hour quote is an early ballpark) that can also be fulfilled up to say, 3-6 months before the start of each academic year. This allows for a broad range of options for students ranging from summer community service/employment to work study or general part-time employment. If this turns out to be the case, and Hilldawg is serious about implementation, she would win my vote on this policy alone, especially if community college becomes free for all with no strings attached.
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Oct 14, 2015 23:31
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Job Truniht posted:I'm glad your contempt is coming out. Thanks for that shithead. it's not so much coming out as I am beaming a spotlight of contempt directly into your eyeballs since you can't even settle on a coherent reason you're furious, just that you're furious and everyone else is terrible
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Oct 14, 2015 23:31
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tehllama posted:Right but the subsidy to make the tuition free is coming from the same pot of federal money is it not? The tuition is just plain $0 for in state students. It's not a subsidy on tuition so much as the tuition simply doesn't exist, and the public universities are mostly funded by the government, as they should be. Out of state students will pay tuition of some sort, and international students are probably gonna pay the same ton of money they do now, since they're mostly allowed in as ways to suck money out of other countries. The other costs being driven down will be also done largely by increased government funding. And probably by a bit of cracking down on bullshit administration costs. And I don't see that it'll all be federal money either, the intent seems to be forcing the states to also pony up.
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Oct 14, 2015 23:31
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The only reason Hillary's plan involves making students work 10 hours a week is because Americans are obsessed with work - specifically in making other people work - and there's no valid reason whatsoever that we can't make universities 100% tuition-free, no strings attached with proper progressive taxation. Let's stop entertaining the idea that Everyone Must Work®
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Oct 14, 2015 23:35
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born on a buy you posted:most colleges are actually barely getting by. I'll believe that when they quit building more sports stadiums and hosting NCAA tournaments. Research in public universities is insanely profitable since you have an army of grad students who will work for basically nothing driving all the innovation that's left in this country. Some groups, especially in medical related fields, can basically run for profit labs and start up companies around their patents and run really great margins. evilweasel posted:it's not so much coming out as I am beaming a spotlight of contempt directly into your eyeballs since you can't even settle on a coherent reason you're furious, just that you're furious and everyone else is terrible Hating rich people telling me about my work ethic is pretty coherent. University students work way harder than the private sector for way less.
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Oct 14, 2015 23:41
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Job Truniht posted:I'll believe that when they quit building more sports stadiums and hosting NCAA tournaments. Most have.
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Oct 14, 2015 23:43
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Job Truniht posted:I'll believe that when they quit building more sports stadiums and hosting NCAA tournaments. Working for 10 hours a week with a whole lot of free poo poo attached to it sounds pretty reasonable to me, and I'm not a filthy bougie.
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Oct 14, 2015 23:43
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Job Truniht posted:Hating rich people telling me about my work ethic is pretty coherent. University students work way harder than the private sector for way less. Most university students do not work harder than the private sector. For less, yes (not least because they pay to go to school rather than get paid). Most people in the private sector know this because they went to college.
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Oct 14, 2015 23:47
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Chalets the Baka posted:The only reason Hillary's plan involves making students work 10 hours a week is because Americans are obsessed with work - specifically in making other people work - and there's no valid reason whatsoever that we can't make universities 100% tuition-free, no strings attached with proper progressive taxation. Let's stop entertaining the idea that Everyone Must Work® No I've had just enough of the lack of civic awareness as a government worker now that I'm ready for mandatory lessons in how the world works in civic service, at the very least it could kill libertarian bullshit at the local level and maybe start grass roots understanding that government is only as good as the good faith efforts of the citizenry to be better than the poo poo they complain about.
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Oct 14, 2015 23:48
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Fried Chicken posted:Let's add some context here COOPER: "Franklin Delano Roosevelt once said, 'I ask you to judge me by the enemies I have made.' You've all made a few people upset over your political careers. Which enemy are you most proud of?" Enemy. Pride. The applause begins, and for a moment, I'm back there in Vietnam. It always starts right after grenade detonates. I get up, my legs and back searing from the pain. I throw my own grenade in the bunker and it sails through. The moment is agonizing before it detonates. Smoke rises out of the opening of the bunker. I always creep slowly towards the bunker, but I know what's inside. I'm unable to stop myself from looking in. In the bunker, the sun casts a shadow on the small North Vietnamese soldier. He looks barely older than 18. His eyes open, staring out as if he is endlessly bored. I see him nightly. I had hoped that the medication would finally stop the nightmares. The Prozac helped with the flashbacks. It made them infrequent, but it didn't stop the dreams. The prazosin -- the prazosin was the worst. It takes just enough of the edge off during the nightmares so I don't punch out during the middle of the night. My wife forces me to take it. It also takes enough of the edge off that the North Vietnamese soldier can talk. He always asks, the same thing: "Why me, Lt. Webb?" COOPER: "Senator Webb?"  "I'd have to say the enemy soldier that threw the grenade that wounded me, but he's not around right now to talk to." But he always around to talk to.
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Oct 14, 2015 23:48
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if the 10 hours thing is a real requirement then it helps the rich and middle class disproportionately to the poor. disadvantaged groups like black people, native americans, etc have really high youth unemployment rates, and so they will not see the benefits of these policies as much as people that don't need help as much. plus, it turns employers into the gatekeepers of education, letting them be more able to abuse the students that must work for them in order to afford college. if we need to make kids have skin in the game, make their continued admission to the college more strictly contingent on their grades in college. students that aren't keeping a 2.5 gpa minimum get the boot quickly and have to wait for a bit before they can go back to university.
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Oct 14, 2015 23:53
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Lessail posted:"college students need more skin in the game " The thing that always got me was how Republicans look down on college students. If there ANY demographic that you can't attack for being lazy layabouts, it them.
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Oct 14, 2015 23:54
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evilweasel posted:Most university students do not work harder than the private sector. For less, yes (not least because they pay to go to school rather than get paid). Most people in the private sector know this because they went to college. It costs nothing to put a student in a classroom. It costs a lot of money to pay an engineer to sit around all day working in the private sector. A lot of engineers leave after they are done with their bachelors because they got sick of the poo poo they had to put up with, and I don't blame them.
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Oct 14, 2015 23:55
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College was pretty much the only job that didn't do the bullshit "find something to so when you aren't busy". Most jobs will have you wipe down poo poo that's already clean just so that they feel they aren't wasting money.
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Oct 14, 2015 23:55
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Mr Interweb posted:The thing that always got me was how Republicans look down on college students. If there ANY demographic that you can't attack for being lazy layabouts, it them. Ivy league, frat houses. The experience isn't universal and that's why everyone should have to be on the receiving end of people wildly misinterpreting your purpose in life so you take pause before you vote again to make being homeless a crime.
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Oct 14, 2015 23:57
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blackguy32 posted:College was pretty much the only job that didn't do the bullshit "find something to so when you aren't busy". lol at college being a "job" and lucky you, the vast majority of college students do in fact have to do busywork at some point or another
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Oct 15, 2015 00:00
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Mr Interweb posted:The thing that always got me was how Republicans look down on college students. If there ANY demographic that you can't attack for being lazy layabouts, it them. They're probably just remembering their college days, where they spent daddy's money to get a piss-easy business or liberal arts degree.
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Oct 15, 2015 00:01
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Most conservatives still think of college as the same as watching reruns of Animal House.
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Oct 15, 2015 00:01
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Condiv posted:if the 10 hours thing is a real requirement then it helps the rich and middle class disproportionately to the poor. disadvantaged groups like black people, native americans, etc have really high youth unemployment rates, and so they will not see the benefits of these policies as much as people that don't need help as much. plus, it turns employers into the gatekeepers of education, letting them be more able to abuse the students that must work for them in order to afford college. if we need to make kids have skin in the game, make their continued admission to the college more strictly contingent on their grades in college. students that aren't keeping a 2.5 gpa minimum get the boot quickly and have to wait for a bit before they can go back to university. Your stupid idea on GPAs is exactly how lovely law schools make sure that the students they give scholarships to lose those scholarships. And gee, I wonder which students have the hardest time maintaining a minimum GPA... And if schools receive funding to give those students 10 hour jobs (like, eg, existing federal work/study aid programs) they will fall over themselves to find ways to create those jobs. There won't be an employee gatekeeper effect.
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Oct 15, 2015 00:03
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Pick posted:It sort of depends on the consistency/requirements of the work as well, I once had to spend so much time teaching undergrads identifications that I would literally have saved myself time telling them to go home. Granted, they had no qualifications in my field and only worked 3/hrs a week. Wasn't my idea Part of work study is experential learning. It's never wasteful to teach students things.
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Oct 15, 2015 00:05
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RuanGacho posted:No I've had just enough of the lack of civic awareness as a government worker now that I'm ready for mandatory lessons in how the world works in civic service, at the very least it could kill libertarian bullshit at the local level and maybe start grass roots understanding that government is only as good as the good faith efforts of the citizenry to be better than the poo poo they complain about. And yet there are plenty of government workers that go in for shirk the budget Drown the government in a bathtub conservativism. Making more people do government work won't make them realize the importance of government it just makes bigger hypocrites
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Oct 15, 2015 00:06
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Condiv posted:if the 10 hours thing is a real requirement then it helps the rich and middle class disproportionately to the poor. disadvantaged groups like black people, native americans, etc have really high youth unemployment rates, and so they will not see the benefits of these policies as much as people that don't need help as much. plus, it turns employers into the gatekeepers of education, letting them be more able to abuse the students that must work for them in order to afford college. if we need to make kids have skin in the game, make their continued admission to the college more strictly contingent on their grades in college. students that aren't keeping a 2.5 gpa minimum get the boot quickly and have to wait for a bit before they can go back to university. They are given the jobs at the uni by the uni, they get them automatically, they don't go work at Wal Mart and turn their paychecks ove to the school.
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Oct 15, 2015 00:06
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zoux posted:They are given the jobs at the uni by the uni, they get them automatically, they don't go work at Wal Mart and turn their paychecks ove to the school. Look up the chair of whatever college you went to and tell me it's a good idea handing him this much power. They usually come from the private sector and vote Republican.
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Oct 15, 2015 00:10
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Trabisnikof posted:lol at college being a "job" Oops, i meant college jobs
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Oct 15, 2015 00:10
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zoux posted:They are given the jobs at the uni by the uni, they get them automatically, they don't go work at Wal Mart and turn their paychecks ove to the school. yeah, i did work study for a while in school. they did not give me a job automatically (that'd be nice), i had to apply to numerous university jobs and if i didn't get one i had to convert my FWS to regular aid Kalman posted:Your stupid idea on GPAs is exactly how lovely law schools make sure that the students they give scholarships to lose those scholarships. And gee, I wonder which students have the hardest time maintaining a minimum GPA... for some reason i don't think universities are going to be jumping at the opportunity to hire an army of 10 hr/week students. they already have trouble with student worker reliability anyway. plus managing that many students will be a pita also, you are aware that many departments already require a minimum gpa of like 2.0-2.5 just to stay in the department right? it's not that onerous compared to making students have to have a job in order to be able to go to university
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Oct 15, 2015 00:12
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Job Truniht posted:Look up the chair of whatever college you went to and tell me it's a good idea handing him this much power. They usually come from the private sector and vote Republican. Yes I'm sure this is a secret plan to create a slave class of students and the highst eschelons in the administration will involve themseves in determining who will be assigned to make sure people sign in at the pool after hours.
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Oct 15, 2015 00:13
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Buffer posted:Part of work study is experential learning. It's never wasteful to teach students things. Yeah, STEM graduate students are just rife with spare time.
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Oct 15, 2015 00:13
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Everyone can work and eat if you have a state program to create a single online job market (including 'subsidized' work like park maintenance, being a cabbie, etc)
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Oct 15, 2015 00:14
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My best work study job was as a door guard for a building that was not occupied.
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Oct 15, 2015 00:15
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Pick posted:Yeah, STEM graduate students are just rife with spare time. I think HRCs program is just for undergrad.
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Oct 15, 2015 00:15
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Chalets the Baka posted:The only reason Hillary's plan involves making students work 10 hours a week is because Americans are obsessed with work - specifically in making other people work - and there's no valid reason whatsoever that we can't make universities 100% tuition-free, no strings attached with proper progressive taxation. Let's stop entertaining the idea that Everyone Must Work® Again: tuition is to be free as long as you're in-state. It's everything else you need to be able to do for college, housing, extra fees, books, food, etc that is to be affordable if you work 10 hours a week. That means cutting all the other costs besides tuition (which is to be 0) down to $3600 a year or less, which is on par with most developed nations.
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Oct 15, 2015 00:16
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And what are they gonna do, fire all of the unionized building and grounds staff to have students work doing that? If we're gonna just have students dig a hole and fill it back up why not cut out the middle man and just provide it for free. Or let's start giving some high school kids some skin in the game, we'll better fund high school but ago those kids got to work 10 hours a week in return. Maybe than they will appreciate what they have and graduation rates will go up KomradeX fucked around with this message at 00:19 on Oct 15, 2015 |
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Oct 15, 2015 00:16
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Pick posted:Yeah, graduate students are just rife with spare time. I wonder if being a TA would count towards Hillary's plan. Sure it's more than 10 hours a week and good god have you ever graded Comp I papers but hey tuition, books, room, and meal plan. Throw in a stipend and you're on your way to a somewhat fair deal.
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Oct 15, 2015 00:18
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