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Tekopo posted:Probably the Starviper is overpriced as well at PS1. I'd say the Starviper is overpriced on every Pilot, tbh.
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Oct 14, 2015 22:31
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Strobe posted:If PS 2 B-wings were... 24 points, I think it'd be a very different thing. BBBBZ has been a big thing for a while, and 4B with FCS or 4B with Adv Sensors are ridiculously good at laying down pain while being durable enough to take it. You'd almost never see generic Bs at 24 points. I think the problem is the T-65 X-wing was just underwhelming at 21 and improves a good bit with a 1 point droid and integrated astromech, though the B-wing will always be a nice knife-fighter. If you really want to joust anyway you take bandits, bananas, and academies, not 24 point ships. Shockeh posted:I'd say the Starviper is overpriced on every Pilot, tbh. Yeah, the StarViper aces are very underwhelming. If Talonbane were in a StarViper he would actually be significantly more interesting. Low PS aces with mediocre abilities with overpriced generics on premium fighters.
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Oct 14, 2015 22:33
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Panzeh posted:You'd almost never see generic Bs at 24 points. In favor of what, exactly? X-wings? Rebels weren't exactly swimming with 3 red small ships. When the B-wing came out, it was that or X-wings, and since B-wings categorically won that fight each and every time, obviously they're undercosted. I really doubt that they're only undercosted by one point. Nowadays, yeah, I can see that being supplanted by other ships, but if B-wings had been costed appropriately to begin with, you can bet there would be some significant differences in subsequent ship point costs.
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Oct 14, 2015 22:38
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Strobe posted:In favor of what, exactly? X-wings? Rebels weren't exactly swimming with 3 red small ships. When the B-wing came out, it was that or X-wings, and since B-wings categorically won that fight each and every time, obviously they're undercosted. I really doubt that they're only undercosted by one point. It might just have been that the X-wing was overcosted, and the B-wing was about right, though.
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Oct 14, 2015 22:47
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I really doubt it's just the X-wing's problem. It's undercosted, no contest there at all, but if that was the problem I have the distinct feeling that 4B wouldn't have been one of the dominant lists (and 4BZ is probably still the dominant jousting list) of the entire meta at that time.
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Oct 14, 2015 22:51
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Strobe posted:I really doubt it's just the X-wing's problem. It's undercosted, no contest there at all, but if that was the problem I have the distinct feeling that 4B wouldn't have been one of the dominant lists (and 4BZ is probably still the dominant jousting list) of the entire meta at that time. If you compare the X-wing to other ships in the game, you'd be underperforming compared to such great contenders as generic PS1 interceptors and the chaardan refit PS1 A-wing. Thug Life is a dominant jousting list, too, but you don't see people calling for nerfs to the BTL-A4 title. I think the B-wing is okay where it is, it's the X-wing that really needs the boost. The most jousty joust list is still the 8 tie/Z swarm.
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Oct 14, 2015 22:59
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The B-wing isn't undercosted. The x-wing is simply overcosted. The fact the B-wing is better in every way only matters because they serve the same purpose. Other rebel ships besides Hwk stack up fine against the b-wing because they have other functions.
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Oct 14, 2015 23:08
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I weep for Rebel Y-wings and their lovely Astromech choices. I think you misunderstand me. I'm not calling for any nerfs. Rather, I'm saying that the B-wing is pretty spectacularly undercosted for what it does and how it does it. FFG is clearly aware of this, and it's had a major effect on how they've costed ships that followed it, to the new ships' detriment.
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Oct 14, 2015 23:09
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Strobe posted:I weep for Rebel Y-wings and their lovely Astromech choices. People on the X-Wing wiki have been super salty over the T-70 X-Wing being "too cheap" for what it does...extra shield point and boost and a better dial, ugh, what is this power creep pay-to-play nonsense, I hope FFG splits tournaments into two separate brackets, one for Force Awakens stuff and one where FA ships are banned, etc...despite the fact that if the T-70 cost more than it already does no one would even entertain the notion of using one and a slightly better X-Wing isn't going to drastically upend tournament (or even casual) meta much if at all.
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Oct 14, 2015 23:15
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Strobe posted:I weep for Rebel Y-wings and their lovely Astromech choices. So, which new ships are suffering from the B-wing's costing, perchance? The rebels haven't gotten another pure jouster since the Z-95, which is hardly overcosted. Do you think the T-70 is overpriced? The generic PS2 might be, but then FFG has had trouble finding things for generics on premium fighters to do.
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Oct 14, 2015 23:23
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I'd say it's more their accounting in general; They over-rate how much a Green dice is worth, and under rate simple HP Pool.
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Oct 14, 2015 23:34
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Shockeh posted:I'd say it's more their accounting in general; They over-rate how much a Green dice is worth, and under rate simple HP Pool. I don't disagree with that. I think a better explanation than 'B-wing is 2 op' is that post-wave 4, different designers took charge so their costing is gonna be different.
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Oct 14, 2015 23:38
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Panzeh posted:So, which new ships are suffering from the B-wing's costing, perchance? The rebels haven't gotten another pure jouster since the Z-95, which is hardly overcosted. Do you think the T-70 is overpriced? The generic PS2 might be, but then FFG has had trouble finding things for generics on premium fighters to do. TIE Defender and E-Wing, which is what I started off this line of conversation saying. :P
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Oct 15, 2015 00:01
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Panzeh posted:I don't disagree with that. I think a better explanation than 'B-wing is 2 op' is that post-wave 4, different designers took charge so their costing is gonna be different. It's exaggerated because they provide things that mitigate green dice (More secondaries, more Bombs, more EPT, more ways to make Crits) but none of these aside from 'generate a crit, get Direct Hit' actually impact on raw tank, so it's only gotten better over time.
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Oct 15, 2015 00:29
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Add to that that there are very few ways to modify green dice versus red. Lone Wolf is one of the only ones the helps green dice. A few pilot abilities. Uh, Flight Instructor (which I've never even seen in a list online, let alone actually played). Autothrusters is the big recent game changer for defense, but very few ships can use it. Wired will probably see some play, it's good on A-Wings. But yeah, that's it, I think? Not very many options really.
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Oct 15, 2015 01:02
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The Gate posted:Add to that that there are very few ways to modify green dice versus red. Lone Wolf is one of the only ones the helps green dice. A few pilot abilities. Uh, Flight Instructor (which I've never even seen in a list online, let alone actually played). Autothrusters is the big recent game changer for defense, but very few ships can use it. Wired will probably see some play, it's good on A-Wings. Yeah FFG has been pretty careful about letting you modify green dice- flight instructor's 4 point cost to reroll an eyeball against most opponents is pretty weak. They've added in more ways in recent times, though the effect is still more subtle than what you can do with reds. This is not Attack Wing where you can get a poo poo ton of extra greens and free focus flips without much trouble.
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Oct 15, 2015 01:15
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It's good design because the game would be incredibly irritating if defense outperformed offense.
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Oct 15, 2015 01:54
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I imagine we might see more COBRRAAAA when the Scum ghetto cloaking device comes out. He'll be nigh unkillable at range 3 with that thing. At 2 points, the chance of failure on an eyeball is well worth it too.
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Oct 15, 2015 01:57
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BattleMaster posted:It's good design because the game would be incredibly irritating if defense outperformed offense. I know a guy who loathes autothrusters because he thinks defence does outperform offence  (He runs double decimators)
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Oct 15, 2015 01:58
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Endman posted:I imagine we might see more COBRRAAAA when the Scum ghetto cloaking device comes out. He'll be nigh unkillable at range 3 with that thing. At 2 points, the chance of failure on an eyeball is well worth it too. I want to run N'dru Suhlak with it to give him a bit of help if he gets chased down before getting off his Cluster Missile.
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Oct 15, 2015 02:01
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BattleMaster posted:It's good design because the game would be incredibly irritating if defense outperformed offense. This is so true. Imagine if a TIE fighter (or whatever) could get multiple re-rolls and flips on their 3+ defense dice and effectively negate most damage every turn. The game would take 3x longer and be far less exciting.
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Oct 15, 2015 02:03
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BattleMaster posted:I want to run N'dru Suhlak with it to give him a bit of help if he gets chased down before getting off his Cluster Missile. My only problem with that would be getting rid of Glitterstim, which makes the Cluster Missile attack hurt so much more than without it.
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Oct 15, 2015 02:05
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BattleMaster posted:It's good design because the game would be incredibly irritating if defense outperformed offense. Yep. It creates a definite endpoint with an eye towards attrition. It really does give the game the thematic dogfight feels with quick explosions.
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Oct 15, 2015 02:24
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It's not the randomness that kills the ghetto cloaking device for me- it's the lack of ACD. Without ACD cloaking is purely defensive and most of the ships mentioned get awfully expensive, so losing the shooting is really rough. However, scum HWKs still get their abilities when cloaked..
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Oct 15, 2015 02:28
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Chill la Chill posted:Tie punisher is really cool because there's a lot of surface area to work with. Unfortunately a lot of it is wasted on the bottom half so even if you get a neat "worlds of Star Wars" going with different panoramic outlines of Tatooine, Hoth, Coruscant, and Endor, half of those won't ever be seen. They will be seen if you ever post pictures of your cool repainted ships
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Oct 15, 2015 02:47
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Panzeh posted:It's not the randomness that kills the ghetto cloaking device for me- it's the lack of ACD. Without ACD cloaking is purely defensive and most of the ships mentioned get awfully expensive, so losing the shooting is really rough. However, scum HWKs still get their abilities when cloaked.. Cloaked HWKs are going to be hilarious. I already find they last way longer than anyone expects them to. Cloaked Palob will be especially hilarious. Also, on another note, thanks whoever linked that video from the NOVA open. I've been watching all of them for the great commentary, and watching people way better at the game than I am is pretty educational.
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Oct 15, 2015 03:52
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I want to run cloaked Palob so badly but I don't know what balance of other stuff I should run on him to make him worthwhile while still leaving me points for other stuff.
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Oct 15, 2015 04:24
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Nothing. Stay cloaked all the time, be impossible to hit and a bad idea to target first. And cheap. 22 points.
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Oct 15, 2015 04:27
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So my friends convinced me to start playing with toy spaceships, I picked up 2 of the khiraxcxcxcxcx and a firespray because they are cool as hell, and a most wanted set because I guess I need stuff from there? What makes a fun list from that? So far I've played all of 4 games trying out the GI joe villain and kath scarlet with a black sun ace backing them up. Playing pretty much just for fun with said friends.
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Oct 15, 2015 05:17
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Hencoe posted:So my friends convinced me to start playing with toy spaceships, I picked up 2 of the khiraxcxcxcxcx and a firespray because they are cool as hell, and a most wanted set because I guess I need stuff from there? You can probably have gobs of fun with just that stuff but here are my suggestions. When I play Scum I mostly just play the types of ship that comes with Most Wanted because they're all pretty solid. If you buy a Rebel Y-Wing and a Rebel HWK-290 you can run all of the ships that Most Wanted gives you tiles and dials for. Scum Y-Wings with Ion Cannon Turret (one included with each of Y-Wing and HWK expansions) with BTL-A4 and Unhinged Astromech (two of each of those included in Most Wanted) are very effective. The HWK-290 can use Palob with Blaster Turret, Recon Specialist, and Moldy Crow (all included in the HWK-290 expansion) which is fun but projects a big "OH GOD KILL IT NOW" aura. Another Most Wanted will let you run a total of 4 Zs which are a good way of using half of your list, or 4 Ys which are a good list all on their own, but you'll need two Rebel Ys and enough turrets to set those up. You can do a really fun thing with Kath with Push the Limit, Engine Upgrade, and K4 Security Droid. Getting those is no big deal if you proxy, but if you want the real cards you'll need a YV-666 for Engine Upgrade and an A-Wing or Imperial Aces for Push the Limit. BattleMaster fucked around with this message at 05:46 on Oct 15, 2015 |
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Oct 15, 2015 05:42
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Fiddling around trying to figure out what I want to run for S&V alongside Bossk and I just noticed how well Wired works with Outlaw Tech and now I'm looking at every pilot to see who could exploit it the best. Maybe Kath or Boba? Also thinking about Bossk with Calculation, Mangler Cannon, K4, Outlaw Tech, Mercenary Co-pilot, and trying to sit at range 3 and snipe, but I'm not sure if the Hound's Tooth can keep itself at 3 range reliably. EDIT:Maybe Recon Specialist instead of Mercenary Co-Pilot. EDIT:Boba w/ K4 + Glitterstim + Advanced Proton Torpedo is too gimmicky right? I feel like it would be hilarious if you got it off though. Pyronic fucked around with this message at 07:56 on Oct 15, 2015 |
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Oct 15, 2015 06:49
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Strobe posted:Nothing. Stay cloaked all the time, be impossible to hit and a bad idea to target first. And cheap. 22 points. I know you're probably joking, but without a turret of some sort, he's basically a 22 point handicap, since your 1 attack die can't threaten much of anything. I'd trade 1 focus our evade per turn to make my opponent play down 22 points.
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Oct 15, 2015 13:20
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Guri + autothrusters + lone wolf is my new favorite ship to fly. Her endgame survivability is stupendous. I've never seen green dice do so much work.
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Oct 15, 2015 14:59
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Pyronic posted:Fiddling around trying to figure out what I want to run for S&V alongside Bossk and I just noticed how well Wired works with Outlaw Tech and now I'm looking at every pilot to see who could exploit it the best. Maybe Kath or Boba? As you have it, I think Merc Co-pilot is redundant. You can only change 1 crit to two hits per attack and you're getting that with the Mangler. If you want to live dangerously go with Greedo - change a crit to two hits and then if you're damage is into their hull the first card is flipped up and is effectively a crit. I'd also suggest swapping Calc + Mangler for Marksmanship. 2 points cheaper and now you have a good chance to crit in your full 180 arc.
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Oct 15, 2015 17:04
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Kill_Discussion posted:As you have it, I think Merc Co-pilot is redundant. You can only change 1 crit to two hits per attack and you're getting that with the Mangler. If you want to live dangerously go with Greedo - change a crit to two hits and then if you're damage is into their hull the first card is flipped up and is effectively a crit. I'd also suggest swapping Calc + Mangler for Marksmanship. 2 points cheaper and now you have a good chance to crit in your full 180 arc. Yeah Merc-copilot might be overkill, I might run recon specialist instead? Calc + Recon gives the same effect as marksmanship if I spend both focus on attack but its a lot more flexible, as I could choose not to spend one or both depending on the situation. It is running pretty high on points though. Greedo kind of terrifies me, but I might try it a couple games and see how it turns out. Pyronic fucked around with this message at 17:51 on Oct 15, 2015 |
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Oct 15, 2015 17:45
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How do Fat Hans fare against 4x TLT? Anyone tried it? I guess it wouldn't be too bad, since you could use your boost and PS9 to stay out of at least some of them.
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Oct 15, 2015 18:38
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Geisladisk posted:How do Fat Hans fare against 4x TLT? Anyone tried it?
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Oct 15, 2015 19:04
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my understanding is that 4x TLT works *because* its good against stuff like Fat Han.
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Oct 15, 2015 19:43
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Yup. Han can dodge one 2 hit TLT shot per turn. After that, any shots that deal 2 hits go through.
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Oct 15, 2015 19:49
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I can't wait until the TLT lists start to get eaten by something else again so Han can reign supreme once more.  At the same time, I've been meaning to paint up a couple more y-wings.... I still need to start on my YT-2400 tagged subway scheme though.
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Oct 15, 2015 21:59
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