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Manuel Rosales was arrested the moment he stepped out of the airplane in Maracaibo and was taken to the SEBIN heaquarters at El Helicoide in Caracas. His trial has been set to start on November 12. Luis Miquilena, one of Chavez's earliest supporters and Minister of Justice in 2001-2002, said on a radio show yesterday that Chavez was "a phony" who lied to Venezuela. Miquilena said: quote:I've come to the conclusion after getting to know Chavez intimately that he was a phony. After selling a program to the country, he came out with another one. He also spoke about the day he decided to resign as Minister of Justice and distance himself from Chavez. It happened during a meeting with Fidel Castro in Margarita: quote:We met in Margarita, in a hotel. I told him [Chavez], "you're making a huge mistake by heading down the path of statism and communism in make-up. This is a really shoddy thing you've got here - expropriating things, attacking private property, which has existed since primitive times". I showed him all these things. "How can you show up and take a factory away from someone? Not one of these experiments has been successful. If you don't rectify this, find a new minister. I won't stand by this for one more day". Miranda state governor Henrique Capriles uploaded an interesting video in which a woman who claims to have been a Chavez supporters says she's angry at the PSUV for ignoring her until it came time to ask her to vote. The video is here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3nvgmk2Kadc quote:Capriles: Ok, Yuraima. I'm here with Yuraima. Yuraima, show me your tattoo. She has a tattoo of President Hugo Chavez on her arm. There it is, and here she is with me, for all of you who said that change wasn't possible. She's here with me, and you were telling me about how you wanted change as well. Why do we need a change right now? punk rebel ecks posted:Hey guys, I'm thinking of starting my own political focused forum. I was wondering if I started one if any of you would be interested in joining? If it has room for a Venezuela thread, I'd be down!
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Oct 17, 2015 17:15
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Chuck Boone posted:I'm not familiar with the 300 land reform activists you've mentioned, but I'd say that if you're telling me that they were assassinated by paramilitaries, well, then there's your answer. Hmm it's almost as if there's an organized campaign of disinformation by the corporate right wing media about Venezuela, and it would be in there interest to downplay an organized campaign of right wing violence. Last I recall, Colombian paramilitaries and wealthy landowners aren't supporters of the PSUV As for Rosales, looks like he's got some drug cartel connections http://www.telesurtv.net/english/news/Venezuelan-Opposition-Leader-Returns-After-6-Year-Exile-20151015-0036.html quote:Manuel Rosales arrived Thursday afternoon in Maracaibo’s airport, capital of the Venezuelan state of Zulia, and met with his party's partners to discuss the coming legislative elections. That habit of coke and teen hookers isn't gonna pay for itself.
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Oct 17, 2015 19:56
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Borneo Jimmy posted:Hmm it's almost as if there's an organized campaign of disinformation by the corporate right wing media about Venezuela,  Also good job accusing him of pedophilia out of a sudden. I will tell everyone the truth about Rosales as spoken by Goon Borneo Jimmy in the Something Awful forums. Rosales was well loved by Zulian citizens during his period, so there will probably be a protest in reaction, or something of the kind. Then again Zulia's weather is basically hell but with more moisture, and protesting there is complete madness.
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Oct 17, 2015 20:11
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Maduro's just trying to fill the Bolivarian dream of a lifetime presidency and a hereditary legislature. You know, for the People.
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Oct 18, 2015 01:21
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It turns out that Maduro was right, and closing the border with Colombia did lead to a general decrease in criminal activity in the region. He got the affected country wrong, though. Yesterday, Colombian Minister of Defense Luis Carlos Villegas presented a report to President Juan Manuel Santos regarding the state of security along the border since the August 19 closure. Villegas said that over the last two months, the border region has experienced a decrease of 39% in assaults, 19% in theft, 70% in vehicle theft, and 84% in extortion. Between August and September of last year, there were 40 reported extortion cases in the region, compared to the six during the same period this year. Murders are also down 10% since August. Villegas said: quote:I can confirm today that the border with Venezuela on the Colombian side is safer today than it was a year ago, and I can confirm without a doubt that the border with Venezuela on the Colombian side is safer today than it was 60 days ago. While it could be possible that the recent decrease in crime is part of a larger trend, if the numbers are true then it certainly points to an acceleration of that trend. Borneo Jimmy posted:Last I recall, Colombian paramilitaries and wealthy landowners aren't supporters of the PSUV The Borneo Jimmy Dilemma. I'll continue to respond because I don't want someone casually reading the thread to walk away thinking you have a good point. You've gone from insinuating that the opposition is directly responsible for financing/organizing terror campaigns in the country to essentially saying "some people who do bad things don't support the PSUV". What relevance does who criminals support/don't support have to your argument? By your logic, the PSUV is responsible for a good chunk of the 24,000+ murders in Venezuela last year. As for any allegations against Rosales, check my thread on the last page on the issue. The leader of an opposition party who filed a suit against Rosales in 2004 said that a judge approached him in 2008 and asked him to make false accusations against Rosales. that judge later fled the country and confirmed that the Venezuelan justice system is rotten, and that it was used at the time as Chavez's personal weapon against political opponents. For a recent example of this, see the Leopoldo Lopez trial. Nothing you've said has any basis on fact. You're grasping at straws. Chuck Boone fucked around with this message at 16:57 on Oct 18, 2015 |
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Oct 18, 2015 16:10
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Quote is not edit!
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Oct 18, 2015 16:56
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Chuck Boone posted:It turns out that Maduro was right, and closing the border with Colombia did lead to a general decrease in criminal activity in the region. He got the affected country wrong, though. Excuse me but that only proves that Maduro was right about the wily Colombians. Obviously the Colombian paramilitaries responsible for the violence in Venezuela were causing trouble in Colombia, too, and they just gave up entirely once the strong hand of the Venezuelan army showed them what for. 
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Oct 18, 2015 17:20
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Over the past two weeks the opposition made a total of twelve demands of the Consejo Nacional Electoral to ensure that the election process is as fair as transparent as possible. Yesterday, Tibisay Lucena (the head of the CNE) said that the body would agree to six of the twelve points. Here's a list of the twelve points the CNE did not agree to:
Read that list carefully and ask yourself, "For what possible reason could the people in charge of running the elections not want to agree to do this?". ComradeCosmobot posted:Excuse me but that only proves that Maduro was right about the wily Colombians. Obviously the Colombian paramilitaries responsible for the violence in Venezuela were causing trouble in Colombia, too, and they just gave up entirely once the strong hand of the Venezuelan army showed them what for. Maduro loves all of Bolivar's people so much that he conjured up this plan to banish the paramilitaries to some kind of transient inter-dimensional space between the border, and it's working!
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Oct 18, 2015 17:36
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Chuck Boone posted:You've gone from insinuating that the opposition is directly responsible for financing/organizing terror campaigns in the country to essentially saying "some people who do bad things don't support the PSUV". What relevance does who criminals support/don't support have to your argument? Right wing paramilitaries don't operate in a vacuum, they've been trained by Colombia, U.S. and Israel, financed by U.S. corporations and the the drug trade, and they operate with Colombia and the United States' permission, they don't kill people randomly. quote:The leader of an opposition party who filed a suit against Rosales in 2004 said that a judge approached him in 2008 and asked him to make false accusations against Rosales
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Oct 18, 2015 18:38
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Borneo Jimmy posted:Right wing paramilitaries don't operate in a vacuum, they've been trained by Colombia, U.S. and Israel, financed by U.S. corporations and the the drug trade, and they operate with Colombia and the United States' permission, they don't kill people randomly. Therefore, the opposition is financing/organizing terror campaigns in Venezuela? I won't address this anymore because it's clear at this point that there's no more straws to grasp at. Borneo Jimmy posted:Of course he says that right after defecting to the United States, no defector has ever lied for political gain https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khidir_Hamza In other words, "a person did a thing once, therefore all people also do that thing". Even if you're right and Aponte Aponte is lying, 1) your point doesn't address the fact that a man who once filed a complaint against Rosales accused Aponte Aponte of fabricating a case against Rosales, and b) the fact that the Venezuelan judiciary is an extension of the executive is a long-established fact, even if we ignore Aponte Aponte. See: Chavez's removal of judge Afiuni in 2009, the resignation of 13 supreme court justices not-at-all in relation to the likely loss of the the National Assembly in December (and the ability to appoint supreme court justices), and the Leopoldo Lopez trial.
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Oct 18, 2015 18:58
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Chuck Boone posted:Therefore, the opposition is financing/organizing terror campaigns in Venezuela? I won't address this anymore because it's clear at this point that there's no more straws to grasp at. quote:Chavez's removal of judge Afiuni in 2009, Regarding that http://venezuelanalysis.com/analysis/5908 quote:Afiuni was judging a financier named Cedeńo who was involved in a few corruption cases. The latest charge was that he and an accomplice deceived CADIVI, our office of currency control, by ostensibly buying computers for almost $30 million but bringing only empty containers to the country. The financier’s accomplice was arrested in Panama more than a year and half ago, and after being turned over to the authorities of Venezuela confessed the whole scheme. His lawyers delayed the trial with legal maneuvers, until about six months ago, when Judge Afiuni herself walked Mr. Cedeńo out of the court room and escorted him with two other functionaries of her court to the internal parking lot for judges where Cedeńo boarded a motorcycle that was let in to the lot by Afiuni’s instruction. Then Afiuni returned to the courtroom to write the ruling with the decision to liberate Cedeńo and afterwards she sat down and said loud and clear that she would sit where she was to wait for the suspension letter to arrive from her superiors. The usual legal practice is that whenever an inmate is freed by ruling of a judge, he is taken back to prison where he waits for the arrival of the release order signed by the judge, something that usually happens in a matter of one or two hours. This was violated to be sure Cedeno would get away.
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Oct 18, 2015 19:32
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Borneo Jimmy posted:Regarding that Not only is the "evidence" in the article laughable, but worse, it makes it seem that Afiuni was arrested and removed because she allegedly took a bribe; in fact, she was removed from her post only because she made a decision that angered Chavez. The man she conditionally released on bail had been in prison for three years before the start of his trial. If Venezuela is "the healthy democracy" that the Venezuelanalysis article you linked says it is, then Afiuni made the right call by granting that man bail. I don't have time to translate it today, but here's Chavez holding trial and sentencing Afiuni to 35 years in prison the day after she was arrested: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AOWPXh3yxBM Even if you're 100% sure that Afiuni is guilty of whatever you think she's guilty of, she had a right to a fair trial, and Chavez sentencing her on television the day after her arrest is the first and most obvious example of this not being the case. Afiuni denied the bribery charges, but Chavez insinuated on television that she did receive a bribe, so why waste time on a trial, right? Judicial abuses aren't OK just because they happen to people you don't like, Jimmy. If the opposition ever gains control of Venezuela and arrests Maduro and the rest of the people in charge, the greatest tragedy that could happen is for their trials to turn into the cargo cult shows we've seen in the PSUV era. Chuck Boone fucked around with this message at 20:14 on Oct 18, 2015 |
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Oct 18, 2015 20:02
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Wow that's extremely hosed up poo poo.
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Oct 18, 2015 20:09
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Chuck Boone posted:Not only is the "evidence" in the article laughable, but worse, it makes it seem that Afiuni was arrested and removed because she allegedly took a bribe; in fact, she was removed from her post only because she made a decision that angered Chavez. The man she conditionally released on bail had been in prison for three years before the start of his trial. Kinda hard to get worked up about that when worse poo poo happens in the American justice system, or the kangaroo courts that American political prisoners like Chelsea Manning are subjected to. "Serious" journalists who complain about Venezuela being a dictatorship never seem to have a problem with that.
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Oct 18, 2015 20:29
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Borneo Jimmy posted:Kinda hard to get worked up about that when worse poo poo happens in the American justice system, or the kangaroo courts that American political prisoners like Chelsea Manning are subjected to. "Serious" journalists who complain about Venezuela being a dictatorship never seem to have a problem with that. Tu quoque is a logical fallacy, just as a friendly heads up.
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Oct 18, 2015 20:29
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Even if the Venezuelan right is as bad as Jimmy says they are, how does that stop the PSUV from being a corrupt, authoritarian, economic poisoned party?
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Oct 18, 2015 20:43
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Is there any reason for adding Israel as one of the masterminds behind the Venezuelan right. I am struggling to think of many instances where they have had any direct involvement in South America. Other than Mossad abducting some ex-nazis. They do a lot of lovely things but are way more focused on Arabic countries.
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Oct 18, 2015 20:54
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In all fairness I, and I imagine most Americans, have no idea what the actual policies of the opposition would be to end the economic malaise so if someone could link me an English language policy paper that would be fantastic.
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Oct 18, 2015 20:56
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euclidian88 posted:I am struggling to think of many instances where they have had any direct involvement in South America. Other than Mossad abducting some ex-nazis. quote:"In [civil war-era] Guatemala, Israel, acting on behalf of the Reagan administration, stepped in to supply military equipment, including helicopters and Galil rifles, and training that had been cut off during the previous Carter administration. Israel also supplied [the Guatemalan regime with] computers, software, and other equipment used for surveillance. This was at the height of the genocide, which ultimately left 200,000 dead, including many Mayans." And when the Venezuelan government tries to control the violence spilling out from Colombia's civil conflict, the opposition cry about "racism", ignoring the 1,000s of political refugees given a home in Venezuela.
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Oct 18, 2015 21:24
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Here's Borneo Jimmy's thought process. Leftist revolutions are good. Anything bad that comes from a leftist revolution is (in order of defending likelihood) 1. A right wing media conspiracy. 2. Right wing sabotage 3. The unfortunate but understandable consequences of the revolution defending itself from 1 or 2. 4. Not that bad anyway considering the US is lynching negroes. If Maduro firebombed Bogota, you can be sure jimmy would call it a lie, then a false flag, then a reasonable response to Colombia's war against the revolution--and far less questionable than Dresden or Hiroshima.
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Oct 18, 2015 21:32
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euclidian88 posted:Is there any reason for adding Israel as one of the masterminds behind the Venezuelan right. I am struggling to think of many instances where they have had any direct involvement in South America. Other than Mossad abducting some ex-nazis. It's pretty much specifically racism.
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Oct 18, 2015 21:38
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In addition to its many other horrors, the Chavez regime is nakedly anti-Semitic and is driving Jews out of the country: http://www.aish.com/jw/s/The-Jews-of-Venezuela.html I don't know if that has anything to do with the reason "Israel" made it onto the word salad list of Bad Things. To a certain kind of low-info leftist, words like "Zionist" are just invectives to use for any bad thing -- he could have just as easily accused the opposition of being controlled by Monsanto or rape culture or any other word from the list of "new ways to say Bad Thing."
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Oct 18, 2015 21:49
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hypnorotic posted:In all fairness I, and I imagine most Americans, have no idea what the actual policies of the opposition would be to end the economic malaise so if someone could link me an English language policy paper that would be fantastic. I don't know if they have anything in English. I'm going to e-mail them through their website and ask. If not, I could translate their platform, but that might take some time.
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Oct 18, 2015 21:51
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Borneo Jimmy posted:http://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/opinion/2013/07/20137717429632532.html Jew-baiting is a terribly way to troll D&D Jimmy, you'll just get them to start agreeing with you!
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Oct 18, 2015 21:57
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-Troika- posted:It's pretty much specifically racism. Don't know how you could be racist to an apartheid regime that forcibly sterilizes black people. Anyways here's some further evidence that the Venezuelan right has courted Israel's support http://venezuelanalysis.com/analysis/6998 quote:Over the weekend, Venezuela’s anti-Chavez minority confirmed reports that one of their own recently met with right-wing Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu and promised to re-establish ties with Israel if the opposition is somehow successful in this year’s presidential election. Speaking on behalf of the opposition’s socalled Democratic Unity Roundtable (MUD), Metropolitan Mayor of Caracas Antonio Ledezma is said to have promised both economic and political rewards in exchange for Israeli support of MUD presidential hopeful, Henrique Capriles Radonski. M. Discordia posted:In addition to its many other horrors, the Chavez regime is nakedly anti-Semitic and is driving Jews out of the country: http://www.aish.com/jw/s/The-Jews-of-Venezuela.html I'm not gonna take serious some article that literally says "anti-zionism is anti-semitism". And why the crack about rape culture M. Discordia? Do you think it doesn't exist?
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Oct 18, 2015 22:01
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Borneo Jimmy posted:Kinda hard to get worked up about that when worse poo poo happens in the American justice system, or the kangaroo courts that American political prisoners like Chelsea Manning are subjected to. "Serious" journalists who complain about Venezuela being a dictatorship never seem to have a problem with that. Your trolling is getting weaker and weaker. Given that the situation in Venezuela is deteriorating and you're know getting your shits and giggles for trolling about a situation with a ton of human suffering, you kinda just seem pathetically creepy now.
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Oct 18, 2015 22:09
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Borneo Jimmy posted:Don't know how you could be racist to an apartheid regime that forcibly sterilizes black people. That's Israel. Not "Jews". <<--not very clever original text left for posterity edit: never mind, didn't catch the wider context of the conversation for a moment there. This is a dumb vector of attack on borneo jimmy overall. He said Israel not Jews. He's still laughable but come on, let's not do the whole 'any criticism of israel is racist (i.e anti-semitic)' thing here. Disclaimer: I have no idea if anything he said about Israeli interference in the region has any basis in reality. NLJP fucked around with this message at 22:49 on Oct 18, 2015 |
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Oct 18, 2015 22:41
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NLJP posted:He said Israel not Jews. He's still laughable but come on, let's not do the whole 'any criticism of israel is racist (i.e anti-semitic)' thing here. 1) Invoking the mysterious Israel/Zionist boogeyman as being behind world events that in actuality have nothing to do with Israel, such as the destruction of Venezuela's society by the PSUV, is often an extension of anti-Semitic conspiracy theory thinking. 2) The Chavez-sponsored mob that painted swastikas on the ruins of the synagogue they looted was not "criticizing Israel." Handwaving the actual persecution of Jews as "criticism of Israel" is in fact anti-Semitic. Anti-Semitism is a real problem in Venezuela today. Many minorities (Jews, Colombians, homosexuals, non-socialists) have found themselves scapegoated in turn by the authoritarian regime of Venezuela, as is the nature of authoritarian regimes. The point is not whether "criticism of Israel" is valid, the point is why Israel is being discussed in the context of Venezuela at all. The answer is because the hardline leftists defending Venezuela have no reasonable argument and are just throwing out an incoherent list of Bad Things that they think people with left-leaning sympathies in general might latch on to.
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Oct 18, 2015 22:55
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I am sorry I bought it up. I was just asking as I wasn't sure if it was a generic US+Israel thing or if Israel was viewed as an active party.
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Oct 18, 2015 23:16
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M. Discordia posted:Many minorities (Jews, Colombians, homosexuals, non-socialists) have found themselves scapegoated in turn by the authoritarian regime of Venezuela, as is the nature of authoritarian regimes.
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Oct 18, 2015 23:23
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Maduro loves Colombians so much that he recently relocated over 1,500 of them back to their beloved homeland at no cost. Over 15,000 other Colombians were so happy to see their fellow countrymen go back to Colombia that they decided to join them!
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Oct 18, 2015 23:42
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Chuck Boone posted:Maduro loves Colombians so much that he recently relocated over 1,500 of them back to their beloved homeland at no cost. Most of whom are being allowed to return http://venezuelanalysis.com/news/11531
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Oct 18, 2015 23:51
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M. Discordia posted:1) Invoking the mysterious Israel/Zionist boogeyman as being behind world events that in actuality have nothing to do with Israel, such as the destruction of Venezuela's society by the PSUV, is often an extension of anti-Semitic conspiracy theory thinking. Sure, but Israel as an actor in the world stage (especially covert operations) is definitely A Thing that cannot be dismissed a priori. Let him hang himself by lacking evidence for said involvement but the idea that Israel/Mossad could never be involved in the region and that the very implication is anti-semitic or racist is pretty dumb. I agree with you that the likelihood of Israeli involvement in Venezuela is low and even if it is there it is unlikely to be a big factor, mind you. It does need more than that to be accused of being systematically racist for me. NLJP fucked around with this message at 23:59 on Oct 18, 2015 |
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Oct 18, 2015 23:53
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Borneo Jimmy posted:Most of whom are being allowed to return http://venezuelanalysis.com/news/11531 Of course they are. I'm sure the deportees were thrilled when the news reached the camps in Cucuta, and that the trauma of getting shuffled around like pawns for god knows what reason won't be lasting. This does make me wonder what the point of the process of demolishing their homes and looting their possessions was. That's probably just the right-wing media talking, though.
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Oct 19, 2015 01:12
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Chuck Boone posted:This does make me wonder what the point of the process of demolishing their homes and looting their possessions was. That's probably just the right-wing media talking, though. Private-Property is a right-wing construct anyway and Venezuela is only helping those Colombias to realize that they are happy once the benevolent goverment takes their things away to... To... Let soldiers have fun with them? Let's stop feeding the troll. If anything at least he's an example of real people I've known around the world that still defend Chavism because it aligns with their ideals. Obviously they are not the ones with families suffering trough the current Venezuelan crisis. Obviously they haven't been acossed by Military Police, robbed and shot at in Caracas, prevented by intimidation and bullets to vote in their country's elections. Obviously they can get toilet paper in the corner store if the need hits, can find milk and diapers anywhere. Obviously, they know best. All of us are just right-wing shills that don't agree with the prize-winning objective periodism presented by TeleSur and VenezuelaAnalysis.
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Oct 19, 2015 07:14
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Last week, Diosdado Cabello was on his television show, Con El Mazo Dando, and he aired a telephone conversation that the head of Polar (the country's largest private food producer) Lorenzo Mendoza had with economist Ricardo Hausmann. The government was able to record this private conversation and it made its way into the hands of Cabello because During the conversation, Mendoza and Hausmann talked about hypothetical scenarios for Venezuela's economic future, including the possibility of Venezuela receiving aid from the IMF. Last night, Maduro put on his police officer, attorney general and judge hats and went on television and said: quote:The authorities must react. The pelucon mayor [a derogatory term that roughly means "big cheese" in this context] committed a crime and they should proceed [with laying charges]. The PSUV are saying that Mendoza was essentially conspiring against the government by having that conversation. Thanks to Maduro, we now know that a) Mendoza committed a crime, b) he is guilty of that crime, and c) he should be punished accordingly. This is important because, again, Mendoza is the head of Polar, the only major company I can name that is still operating and producing food in Venezuela. The PSUV has had it in for Mendoza for a while, and there have been whispers now and then that the expropriation of Polar was coming. Hugoon Chavez posted:Let's stop feeding the troll. If anything at least he's an example of real people I've known around the world that still defend Chavism because it aligns with their ideals. I'll try my hardest. I just don't want him/people reading the thread have those opinions uncontested.
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Oct 19, 2015 15:48
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Don't forget all of the Jacobin coverage of Venezuela. People like George Ciccariello-Maher (a white assistant poli-sci professor at Drexel University in Philadelphia) are 100% real after all. Even looks vaguely familiar! e: Re: Monsieur Jimmie d'Borneo, if anything he is a useful strawman that makes the internet leftist reactionaries who rush to the defense of Maduro look far worse then they really are. After all, there are no mealy-mouthed half-concessions with plenty of pearl clenching and soul searching, its just the flat out fog-horn blare of the PSUV propaganda machine. Its easy to identify, its easy to criticize. Laphroaig fucked around with this message at 16:08 on Oct 19, 2015 |
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Oct 19, 2015 15:58
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Borneo Jimmy posted:And guess who finances the opposition, sorry it's so hard to believe that the Latin American right and the United States would be involved in a campaign of terror against leftists, I mean it's not like there's a long and continuous history of it happening in the continent. It can be both true that the US is financing the opposition, and the current Venezuelan government is also startlingly incompetent. The overall problem though is that the Venezuelan government incompetence really isn't much of an ideological issue (at least in my mind) but more functional one, the government has been very shortsighted in managing its physical resources and the monetary expansion it is utilizing is causing enormous inflation. It is has been framed also an ideological/geopolitical conflict, but in reality, I think it is just an issue of basic incompetence. Price controls coupled with very high inflation will almost certainly lead to shortages. It is an issue that should have been fixed a long time ago, but just nothing has been done about it. It isn't a left-right issue either, you could have readjusted most of the controls and revalued the currency without necessarily without going after the poor (Hell, even compared Soviet-style central planning provides daily goods most of the time). That said, while some things that can be fixed, stabilization of the currency and re-adjustment of prices, it is probably going to have to be the opposition that does it unless the PSUV changes their strategy. Unfortunately, the PSUV has put themselves into a siege mentality where they have to reject changes just because the opposition gets a morale victories out of it. The problem is at least on some issues they have to change, but their pride (I guess?) is going to keep on getting in the way. That said, the long-term challenges of Venezuela are unclear. While the opposition through some basic steps can get quite a few people on their side, if they do fund themselves through the IMF, it could be quite a roller-coaster. Just as shortsighted the PSUV is on the issue of prices and inflation, the IMF is almost as bad as about austerity and the needs of consumer demand. I expect there is going to be a few decades of finger-pointing in the future. I think though for the most part rather than look at the challenges that led to the rise of the PSUV (and likely its fall) in as a longer term historical issue, it just be re-branded as a partisan conflict. That said, there are some real lessons both sides should take into account. Ardennes fucked around with this message at 17:06 on Oct 19, 2015 |
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Oct 19, 2015 16:10
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Ardennes posted:The issue is if anything it can be true that the US is financing the opposition and going afters leftist and the current Venezuelan government is startlingly incompetent. The overall issue though isn't it that the Venezuelan government incompetence isn't necessarily is an ideological issue (at least in my mind) but more functional, the government has been very shortsighted in managing its physical resources and the monetary expansion it is utilizing is causing enormous inflation. It is has been framed also an ideological/geopolitical conflict, but in reality, I think it is just rather basic incompetence. Don't forget massive amounts of theft and corruption. Many of the price controls are basically a way to subsidize smuggling by the military. There's also a lot of evidence that the largest drug cartel in Venezuela is basically a subsection of the military. If I remember correctly, Chavez's kids aren't doing too poorly, either.
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Oct 19, 2015 16:15
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Ardennes posted:That said, Do you want to take a deep breath and re-write that post dude? It hurts to try and read it in a single sitting. I think I understand your general argument - that certain things could be adjusted and fixed, and it isn't really a left-right issue except that the PSUV has chosen to frame those things as one. My view is that people are welcome to their decades of finger pointing; they are going to do it anyway, so why not. It does not change the fact that the PSUV has been in uncontested control of the country for 8 years, and own its current situation. Chavez's legacy is successfully raising the living standards of many of the very poorest in the country. However, that rise has come at many real costs to the fabric of Venezuelan society - crime, corruption, cronyism, the destruction of industry and enterprise, etc. These are both inseparable parts of the history of the PSUV. What no one talks about is that many of those early gains that Chavez achieved were affordable to the country due to the high price of oil. Now, with the rise of shale oil and gas, the entire world economy has changed and will continue to change. If people want finger pointing, they can point at that - its probably the largest contributor to the current instability in Venezuela, the fact that the state cannot simply use petrol dollars to pay for everything. The PSUV wants to live in a style it can no longer afford. Sure, it could win the next election through cheating, and it can sabotage any new government through rigging the courts, but all it is going to do is kick the can down the road. Things are going to get worse before they get better.
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Oct 19, 2015 16:35
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