Let's Debate the Police and Criminal Justice

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Debate & Discussion > Let's Debate the Police and Criminal Justice

radical meme: Apr 17, 2009; by Fluffdaddy

I'm just gonna dump this here for the thread to discuss. My only comment is that, although I am in no way sympathetic to the officer here, this young man basically committed suicide and I'm not shocked at all that he wound up dead. It could have been handled differently but, if there was ever a nominee for a Darwin Award, it's this guy.

edit: maybe I'm being too judgmental. It's entirely possible that this young man, his entire family and all of his friends have been living under a rock for the past decade and he did not know that the police will kill you; they will especially kill you if you are black and committing a crime.

radical meme fucked around with this message at 00:31 on Oct 21, 2015

# ? Oct 21, 2015 00:20

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# ? May 28, 2024 14:09

Toasticle: Jul 18, 2003; Hay guys, out this Rape

On the topic of jury nullification if I may, there was an appellate court ruling that defense attorney told me about I've had a hell of a time trying to find, I could only remember the year, finally found it. 417 F.2d 1002, 4th circuit US vs Moylan etc, 1969.

quote:

13 We recognize, as appellants urge, the undisputed power of the jury to acquit, even if its verdict is contrary to the law as given by the judge and contrary to the evidence. This is a power that must exist as long as we adhere to the general verdict in criminal cases, for the courts cannot search the minds of the jurors to find the basis upon which they judge. If the jury feels that the law under which the defendant is accused is unjust, or that exigent circumstances justified the actions of the accused, or for any reason which appeals to their logic or passion, the jury has the power to acquit, and the courts must abide by that decision.

14 Concededly, this power of the jury is not always contrary to the interests of justice. For example, freedom of the press was immeasurably strengthened by the jury's acquittal of John Peter Zenger of seditious libel, a violation of which, under the law as it then existed and the facts, he was clearly guilty. In that case Andrew Hamilton was allowed to urge the jury, in the face of the judge's charge, "to see with their own eyes, to hear with their own ears, and to make use of their consciences and understanding in judging of the lives, liberties, or estates of their fellow subjects."

And then of course tried to cover their asses and limit this "undisputed power"

quote:

15 No less an authority than Dean Pound has expressed the opinion that "Jury lawlessness is the great corrective of law in its actual administration."12 However, this is not to say that the jury should be encouraged in their "lawlessness," and by clearly stating to the jury that they may disregard the law, telling them that they may decide according to their prejudices or consciences (for there is no check to insure that the judgment is based upon conscience rather than prejudice), we would indeed be negating the rule of law in favor of the rule of lawlessness. This should not be allowed.

"Yes they have that power but we shouldn't tell them about it"

This has been bugging me because the only responses are along the lines of that second quote that juries must follow the law otherwise it undermines the legal system yet there are 3 other potential nullifications: The DA can just use "prosecutorial discretion" and not bring charges, a grand jury which has not seen the evidence or just the bits the DA wants to show them can decide to not indict and a judge can overturn a guilty verdict. One article posted a dozen pages back had a study that only something like 44 out of 17,000 (71,000?) grand juries indicted cops. If the legal system gives the jury the absolute final say with no legal requirement as to how they reach that verdict, is that not how the system is supposed to work?

Pro AND anti nullification attorneys have said the jury (technically according to the anti) even after swearing an oath can still return any verict with no threat of punishment nor can they be even asked to explain their verdict. It's been used heavily in U.S. history to not convict during prohibition, something like 50-60% of juries refused to convict. It was used to not convict people charged with harboring escaped slaves so it does have precedent as the publics last line of defense against laws the public disagree with.

# ? Oct 21, 2015 00:34

BossTweed: Apr 9, 2001; Doctor Rope

Fuckin a man....

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...lothes-officer/

quote:

After his car broke down, Florida church drummer shot and killed by plainclothes officer

Their band, Future Prezidents, had finished their gig almost an hour earlier, so bass player Mathew Huntsberger was surprised to get a call from drummer Corey Jones, 31, around 1:45 a.m. on Sunday.

Jones told Huntsberger that his SUV had broken down and asked if he could help, so Huntsberger drove to find his bandmate, who was stranded north of West Palm Beach, Fla., on Interstate 95. He brought along some oil, but when that didn�t work, the two decided to look up numbers for a tow truck.

�I tried to help him the best I could, but I�m not a mechanic or anything,� Huntsberger said in an interview with The Washington Post on Monday afternoon.

Huntsberger said he called roadside assistance for his bandmate and then, about 2:30 a.m., left to head home while Jones waited for the tow truck.

About 45 minutes later, Jones was dead � shot and killed by a police officer.

�When I left him he was sitting in his car calling roadside assistance,� Huntsberger said. �I never would have thought that someone was going to come kill him.�

Few details have been released about the Oct. 18 shooting � which is one of more than 780 fatal police shootings so far in 2015, according to a Washington Post database of all deadly on-duty shootings by police officers in 2015.

In a statement issued Monday afternoon, the Palm Beach Gardens Police Department said that officer Nouman Raja was in plainclothes in an unmarked car when he stopped to investigate what he believed to be an abandoned vehicle on an Interstate 95 exit ramp.

�As the officer exited his vehicle, he was suddenly confronted by an armed subject,� the police department said in a statement. �As a result of the confrontation, the officer discharged his firearm, resulting in the death of the subject.�

Palm Beach Gardens is a roughly 50,000-resident city near Palm Beach, made up primarily of white residents. The Palm Beach Sheriff�s Office, which is investigating the shooting, referred requests for comment to the Palm Beach Gardens Police Department. Officials with the Palm Beach Gardens Police Department did not immediately respond to requests for comment.

�They�re saying he was armed, but I don�t know if I believe it,� said Huntsberger, who described Jones as a really mellow, church-going guy. �Of course they�re going to say that. If I was there, maybe it�s a different situation. I just don�t know what happened.�

Family members, several of whom are clergy members in the Palm Beach region, and friends have described Jones as a well-known and liked church drummer at Bible Church of God in Boynton Beach. Jones family plans to gather tonight at a local church to share memories of him, and are making funeral plans for Saturday.

�He was a good kid, just coming home from a gig,� said Jones�s cousin Frank Hearst, 36, of Nashville, Tenn. �He was just an all-around good guy who never got into any trouble, never had any record. It�s just an unfortunate situation.�

Hearst said family members are upset at how little information has been provided about the shooting. They want to know how many shots were fired, and what weapon he allegedly was carrying when he was killed. They say Jones never carried a firearm.

�They�re saying Corey approached him armed, which is a total lie,� Hearst said. �That don�t make sense.�

Benjamin Dixon said he met Jones because they were both church musicians, occasionally filling in for each other�s bands when a member had to miss a service.

�When you play with someone two or three times, they become friends. Two or three times more, and they become family,� Dixon said.

He remembered Jones as a laid-back guy, often found wielding his drumsticks behind a kit in a church sanctuary.

�He was a very hard worker who you could also find in his church,� Dixon said.

Update:
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...hot-by-officer/

BossTweed fucked around with this message at 01:01 on Oct 21, 2015

# ? Oct 21, 2015 00:58

Trabisnikof: Dec 24, 2005

BossTweed posted:

Fuckin a man....

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...lothes-officer/

According to the logic of some SA posters, there is basically no way that cop committed a crime. Plainsclothed or not, carry laws or not.

# ? Oct 21, 2015 01:02

chitoryu12: Apr 24, 2014

radical meme posted:

I'm just gonna dump this here for the thread to discuss. My only comment is that, although I am in no way sympathetic to the officer here, this young man basically committed suicide and I'm not shocked at all that he wound up dead. It could have been handled differently but, if there was ever a nominee for a Darwin Award, it's this guy.

edit: maybe I'm being too judgmental. It's entirely possible that this young man, his entire family and all of his friends have been living under a rock for the past decade and he did not know that the police will kill you; they will especially kill you if you are black and committing a crime.

Sooo why did he have to shoot the unarmed guy for a crappy car theft?

# ? Oct 21, 2015 01:07

Discendo Vox: Mar 21, 2013; We don't need to have that dialogue because it's obvious, trivial, and has already been had a thousand times.

Toasticle posted:

Pro AND anti nullification attorneys have said the jury (technically according to the anti) even after swearing an oath can still return any verict with no threat of punishment nor can they be even asked to explain their verdict. It's been used heavily in U.S. history to not convict during prohibition, something like 50-60% of juries refused to convict. It was used to not convict people charged with harboring escaped slaves so it does have precedent as the publics last line of defense against laws the public disagree with.

No, it's a defense of 12 people against laws that they personally disagree with in one case, despite being passed by a democratically elected legislature. My prior posts on the subject take the circuit cases into consideration.

Discendo Vox fucked around with this message at 01:17 on Oct 21, 2015

# ? Oct 21, 2015 01:07

BossTweed: Apr 9, 2001; Doctor Rope

chitoryu12 posted:

Sooo why did he have to shoot the unarmed guy for a crappy car theft?

Didn't you see this part?

"Several witnesses and the officer told Chesterfield police that Brown made a sudden move, as if reaching for a weapon. However, no weapon was recovered, McCullough said."

Moving quickly around a police officer while disobeying gets you shot.

# ? Oct 21, 2015 01:45

BloodFeastIslandMan: Jul 30, 2005; What are you doing here?

BossTweed posted:

Fuckin a man....

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...lothes-officer/

Update:
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...hot-by-officer/

Someone leaked the officer's story to a local news station.

http://www.wpbf.com/news/officer-shot-at-corey-jones-five-times-two-separate-instances/35942092?src=app

quote:

According to a Palm Beach County Sheriff�s Office source who can�t comment publicly, the account Palm Beach Gardens officer Nouman Raja told investigators is that stranded motorist Corey Jones pulled a gun on him as soon as Raja approached him on the PGA exit ramp from I-95 and said, �Police, man, are you alright?�Raja was working an undercover surveillance detail on burgled cars, and pulled up to Jones in a white unmarked passenger van, perpendicular to the front of Jones� car.

Raja said he then fired two to three shots at Jones, who was standing behind his open driver�s side door. He said Jones then took off running.

Raja told investigators he was tracking Jones as he ran, and saw him make it to the guardrail west of the car, about 30 feet away.

The source said Raja said he could see the flickering silver of a laser on Jones� gun, and that�s when he took aim and fired two more times.

Raja was working an undercover surveillance detail on burgled cars, and pulled up to Jones in a white unmarked passenger van, perpendicular to the front of Jones� car.

He was wearing jeans, a tan T-shirt and a ball cap. He did not have his duty gun on him, but a smaller, back-up Glock in a front holster. The duty gun was in the van.

The source said Raja told detectives Jones was standing, and Jones immediately said, �I�m okay.�

Raja said he then identified himself as police, and that�s when Jones pulled out his gun, and Raja immediately shot at him.

Raja had left his police radio in the van, and called 911 on his cell phone as he tracked Jones running away.

According to the source, evidence technicians found five casings from Raja�s Glock 40 at the scene.

They also found a Jimenez Arms 380 semi-automatic pistol, with six live rounds in the magazine, which apparently belonged to Jones.

The Palm Beach Gardens Police issued a statement Monday that said Jones suddenly confronted Raja with a gun, and that�s when Raja fired.

I could be wrong but i read that as the unmarked van pulled in front of Jones' car, blocking the front of it. I think anyone who carries a weapon for self-defense would reach for it if that happened to them in the middle of the night. The department has said almost nothing about what actually happened though, the union has even criticized the chief about it. http://www.wptv.com/news/region-n-p...-jones-shooting

BloodFeastIslandMan fucked around with this message at 01:49 on Oct 21, 2015

# ? Oct 21, 2015 01:47

upgunned shitpost: Jan 21, 2015

quote:

The source said Raja told detectives Jones was standing, and Jones immediately said, �I�m okay.�

Raja said he then identified himself as police, and that�s when Jones pulled out his gun, and Raja immediately shot at him.

There is no loving way.

# ? Oct 21, 2015 03:27

KomradeX: Oct 29, 2011

Whelp a Cop was killed in East Harlem tonight http://abc7.com/news/nypd-officer-dies-after-being-shot-in-head-in-manhattan/1043370/ I look forward to the next few days of the NYPD blaming Mayor DeBlasio and the BLM for this. Meanwhile I'm just going to chug rum for a week to deal with how awful facebook is about it get.

# ? Oct 21, 2015 06:32

serious gaylord: Sep 16, 2007; what.

jfood posted:

There is no loving way.

He almost certainly didn't identify himself as a police officer. If he did, he almost certainly searched the car for a gun and dropped it outside. No way his story is true.

# ? Oct 21, 2015 08:28

Murderion: Oct 4, 2009; 2019. New York is in ruins. The global economy is spiralling. Cyborgs rule over poisoned wastes.

The only time that's left is
FUN TIME

BossTweed posted:

Fuckin a man....

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...lothes-officer/

Update:
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...hot-by-officer/

quote:

�I understand the public concern with what is going on. We share that,� Chief Stepp said. �The most important thing, I believe, is to get the facts out. That�s what we�re trying to do.�

We've scrubbed and scrubbed, we've tried bleach, but we still can't get these drat facts out.

# ? Oct 21, 2015 12:31

Hooded Reptile: Aug 31, 2015

Britteney Miles, a pregnant mother of two who was accidentally shot in the face by a former Agawam police officer in 2012, is suing police and the town for $1.5 million in federal court.

It alleges police engaged in a cover-up to justify Petrangelo drawing her gun when they received a 911 call for a possible break-in at the Elizabeth Manor Apartments on May 5, 2012.

Miles, then 21, went to open the door for police while holding her young daughter in her arms when Petrangelo's gun accidentally went off, according to accounts of the incident.

"Britteney Miles noticed the officer outside her apartment and went to her front door with her daughter in her arms ... Officer Petrangelo knocked on same with her foot while holding her service revolver at chest level, pointed at the door. As Miles unlocked and started to open the solid wood door, she heard a loud noise and saw a bright light," the complaint states. "Officer Petrangelo had discharged her firearm through the door, striking Ms. Miles in the face and chin."

http://www.masslive.com/news/index.ssf/2015/04/agawam_woman_accidentally_shot.html#incart_m-rpt-1

# ? Oct 21, 2015 19:35

Radbot: Aug 12, 2009; Can't post for 3 years!

That church drummer story is so loving scary. Really, if you see a person not in uniform with a gun, you're probably safer just shooting them preemptively even if they identify themselves as police.

# ? Oct 21, 2015 20:04

Eggplant Squire: Aug 14, 2003

I really don't understand how under cover cops are allowed to walk around with the authority of regular uniformed police. It seems like such a disaster waiting to happen as in this case. Like if an under cover cop was allowed to monitor situations then radio in for regular ones to engage that would be one thing but when some person starts pointing a gun and barking orders how the hell are you supposed to know if that is a real cop or not especially when these confrontations escalate to deadly incredibly quickly.

Additionally you are playing the lottery if as a regular person the guy you are defending yourself against with a gun just happens to be an under cover officer that got a little too zealous in busting someone that didn't realize he was breaking the law if any.

Eggplant Squire fucked around with this message at 20:17 on Oct 21, 2015

# ? Oct 21, 2015 20:15

SSJ_naruto_2003: Oct 12, 2012

There's no way this person would just be chill and as soon as the cop said I'm police pull out a gun. This isn't some gang member. What the gently caress happened?

# ? Oct 21, 2015 21:00

Lemming: Apr 21, 2008

GreyPowerVan posted:

There's no way this person would just be chill and as soon as the cop said I'm police pull out a gun. This isn't some gang member. What the gently caress happened?

If I had to guess the guy whose car broke down got scared from a stranger pulling up in front of him, possibly with a gun out. I'd believe he got his gun, and then the cop got scared and shot the guy. Basically, most likely two scared people with guns, and the cop had a much itchier trigger finger.

Edit: And a 0% chance it went down like the cop said "he pulled a gun on me when I said I was a cop" lmao

# ? Oct 21, 2015 21:05

Radbot: Aug 12, 2009; Can't post for 3 years!

The real question is why more predators don't just pull people over with eBay LEDs and identify themselves as police. Everybody knows that "driving to a well lit area" when getting pulled over will get you shot anyways.

# ? Oct 21, 2015 21:15

PostNouveau: Sep 3, 2011; VY till I die; Grimey Drawer

Radbot posted:

The real question is why more predators don't just pull people over with eBay LEDs and identify themselves as police. Everybody knows that "driving to a well lit area" when getting pulled over will get you shot anyways.

Everytime someone gets raped/carjacked by fake police, you see news articles advising that you either drive somewhere safer or call the police to make sure it's a real cop. I'm pretty sure in reality though, either one of those moves will get you a beating and a fleeing charge.

# ? Oct 21, 2015 21:23

chitoryu12: Apr 24, 2014

BloodFeastIslandMan posted:

Someone leaked the officer's story to a local news station.

http://www.wpbf.com/news/officer-shot-at-corey-jones-five-times-two-separate-instances/35942092?src=app

I could be wrong but i read that as the unmarked van pulled in front of Jones' car, blocking the front of it. I think anyone who carries a weapon for self-defense would reach for it if that happened to them in the middle of the night. The department has said almost nothing about what actually happened though, the union has even criticized the chief about it. http://www.wptv.com/news/region-n-p...-jones-shooting

I take it we're all expected to believe that a random drummer with a broken-down car suddenly flipped out and attempted to kill an identified police officer for no good reason?

# ? Oct 21, 2015 21:39

Radbot: Aug 12, 2009; Can't post for 3 years!

PostNouveau posted:

Everytime someone gets raped/carjacked by fake police, you see news articles advising that you either drive somewhere safer or call the police to make sure it's a real cop. I'm pretty sure in reality though, either one of those moves will get you a beating and a fleeing charge.

Exactly. I can't even imagine a scenario where a black driver could continue on to a gas or police station and not get pulled out of the car at gunpoint.

# ? Oct 21, 2015 21:39

chitoryu12: Apr 24, 2014

Radbot posted:

Exactly. I can't even imagine a scenario where a black driver could continue on to a gas or police station and not get pulled out of the car at gunpoint.

Or shot, like in South Carolina.

# ? Oct 21, 2015 22:32

LeJackal: Apr 5, 2011

chitoryu12 posted:

I take it we're all expected to believe that a random drummer with a broken-down car suddenly flipped out and attempted to kill an identified police officer for no good reason?

No good reason? He was black and 'no angel' and that is all a 'thug' needs to shoot at one of our brave officers!

This is what some people really think.

# ? Oct 21, 2015 22:43

DARPA: Apr 24, 2005; We know what happens to people who stay in the middle of the road. They get run over.

chitoryu12 posted:

Or shot, like in South Carolina.

Officer Sean Groubert, the officer who shot up the guy at a gas station, still hasn't been brought to trial over a year later. No trial has been schedule.

# ? Oct 21, 2015 22:51

Hooded Reptile: Aug 31, 2015

NBAer in 1Oak club brawl suing cops and city for $50M

http://nypost.com/2015/10/21/nbaer-plans-50m-lawsuit-against-city-over-broken-leg/

Sefolosha told the jury he complied with the orders and hurled the insult only after the cop taunted, �Get off my . . . �f�king block.�

This should be good.

# ? Oct 21, 2015 23:14

Murderion: Oct 4, 2009; 2019. New York is in ruins. The global economy is spiralling. Cyborgs rule over poisoned wastes.

The only time that's left is
FUN TIME

LeJackal posted:

No good reason? He was black and 'no angel' and that is all a 'thug' needs to shoot at one of our brave officers!

This is what some people really think.

Dude played in a church band, I think only priests get closer to being angels.

I wonder what the media's going to dredge up from his past if this gets picked up. Marijuana possession? A drunk and disorderly caution? Busted taillight 10 years ago?

# ? Oct 22, 2015 00:05

Demon Of The Fall: May 1, 2004; Nap Ghost

lol that's the dumbest, most unbelievable cop story I think I've ever heard. No wonder they are refusing to release details if that's the bullshit they're gonna come out with.

# ? Oct 22, 2015 02:21

Trabisnikof: Dec 24, 2005

Demon Of The Fall posted:

lol that's the dumbest, most unbelievable cop story I think I've ever heard. No wonder they are refusing to release details if that's the bullshit they're gonna come out with.

Lol the official story has less details, but does that disgusting thing of completely disconnecting the killer from their actions:

quote:

In a statement on Facebook, the Palm Beach Gardens Police Department said, "Nouman Raja, on duty in a plain clothes capacity, in an unmarked police vehicle, stopped to investigate what he believed to be an abandoned vehicle. As the officer exited his vehicle, he was suddenly confronted by an armed subject. As a result of the confrontation, the officer discharged his firearm, resulting in the death of the subject."

However the bullshit story is in full swing:

quote:

A source from the Palm Beach Gardens Sheriff�s department, who insisted on anonymity to speak about the case, told local station WPBF that Raja said Jones had pulled out a gun as soon as the officer identified himself as police, asking, �Police, man, are you alright.� The officer says says he fired at Jones two or three times as he stood near the driver�s side door of his car.

Jones then took off running towards a guardrail 30 feet away, Raja said, according to the source, and the officer fired at him again twice after he could see the flickering laser target of Jones� gun.

flickerin' lasers.

# ? Oct 22, 2015 02:33

upgunned shitpost: Jan 21, 2015

We'll honestly never know the truth and no one is going to jail for it.

It's amazing how many murders you can make go away just by sprinkling a little cash on the body.

# ? Oct 22, 2015 02:47

Xandu: Feb 19, 2006; It's hard to be humble when you're as great as I am.

Radish posted:

I really don't understand how under cover cops are allowed to walk around with the authority of regular uniformed police. It seems like such a disaster waiting to happen as in this case. Like if an under cover cop was allowed to monitor situations then radio in for regular ones to engage that would be one thing but when some person starts pointing a gun and barking orders how the hell are you supposed to know if that is a real cop or not especially when these confrontations escalate to deadly incredibly quickly.

Additionally you are playing the lottery if as a regular person the guy you are defending yourself against with a gun just happens to be an under cover officer that got a little too zealous in busting someone that didn't realize he was breaking the law if any.

This sort of thing is actually responsible for a quite a few police officer deaths too. Off-duty or undercover cops trying to intervene in a crime and then end up getting shot by cops who don't realize who they are. Can hardly blame anyone else for not recognizing them when even cops shoot undercovers that a pull a gun.

On another topic, I was just looking through WaPo's police shootings database, which is fantastic, and the clearest trend is that the vast majority (like 90%) of police shootings involve someone armed with a weapon. There's still way too many unnecessary shootings and deaths of innocent people, but all things considered, most shootings seem justified. The biggest policy implication here is that if you want to reduce police shootings, get guns off the streets.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/national/police-shootings/

# ? Oct 22, 2015 02:51

ugh its Troika: May 2, 2009; by FactsAreUseless

Yeah that's not going to happen.

# ? Oct 22, 2015 02:54

Xandu: Feb 19, 2006; It's hard to be humble when you're as great as I am.

I know

# ? Oct 22, 2015 02:58

Toasticle: Jul 18, 2003; Hay guys, out this Rape

Discendo Vox posted:

No, it's a defense of 12 people against laws that they personally disagree with in one case, despite being passed by a democratically elected legislature. My prior posts on the subject take the circuit cases into consideration.

You've said that but haven't said why that's a bad thing, especially in light of the fact that the jury system is set up allow them to do exactly that.

A law being being passed can be stopped by veto referendums in about half the states. Citizens can get ballot initiatives if their elected representatives aren't doing what their constiuants want. They can hold recall elections to get rid of them. The system has multiple ways for people to block/recall laws they don't agree with and get rid of the people that passed them without having to wait for the next election. That's not even getting into the whole shitshow that our "democratic" system has become with things like gerrymandering and super-pacs and the complete shitshow that is happening in southern states once the VRA ended. Thre were some states with voter suppression poo poo ready to go the moment the SC ruled.

Why is this one particular thing undermining democracy but not the rest? I forget the state but a few weeks ago they closed DMVs in 31 counties, take a wild guess about the skin tone of the majority of those counties. How can you even call it democracy when we're going back to passing laws to actively try and prevent the wrong people from voting, in light of that nullification seems like a feature not an accidental quirk.

# ? Oct 22, 2015 03:43

SSJ_naruto_2003: Oct 12, 2012

Toasticle posted:

You've said that but haven't said why that's a bad thing, especially in light of the fact that the jury system is set up allow them to do exactly that.

A law being being passed can be stopped by veto referendums in about half the states. Citizens can get ballot initiatives if their elected representatives aren't doing what their constiuants want. They can hold recall elections to get rid of them. The system has multiple ways for people to block/recall laws they don't agree with and get rid of the people that passed them without having to wait for the next election. That's not even getting into the whole shitshow that our "democratic" system has become with things like gerrymandering and super-pacs and the complete shitshow that is happening in southern states once the VRA ended. Thre were some states with voter suppression poo poo ready to go the moment the SC ruled.

Why is this one particular thing undermining democracy but not the rest? I forget the state but a few weeks ago they closed DMVs in 31 counties, take a wild guess about the skin tone of the majority of those counties. How can you even call it democracy when we're going back to passing laws to actively try and prevent the wrong people from voting, in light of that nullification seems like a feature not an accidental quirk.

It's Alabama, where I live. I believe you can still vote because there are places in the counties to go get voter's or state IDs, but yeah, to get a driver's license it's now an extremely long drive for most people in Alabama.

# ? Oct 22, 2015 04:18

Discendo Vox: Mar 21, 2013; We don't need to have that dialogue because it's obvious, trivial, and has already been had a thousand times.

Toasticle posted:

You've said that but haven't said why that's a bad thing, especially in light of the fact that the jury system is set up allow them to do exactly that.

The jury system is not "set up to allow them to do that". It's the whole reason the fact/law distinction, jnov, and other ways of overturning this sort of momentary mob "justice" exist. Again, these were discussed in my previous post on the subject.

Toasticle posted:

A law being being passed can be stopped by veto referendums in about half the states. Citizens can get ballot initiatives if their elected representatives aren't doing what their constiuants want. They can hold recall elections to get rid of them. The system has multiple ways for people to block/recall laws they don't agree with and get rid of the people that passed them without having to wait for the next election. That's not even getting into the whole shitshow that our "democratic" system has become with things like gerrymandering and super-pacs and the complete shitshow that is happening in southern states once the VRA ended. Thre were some states with voter suppression poo poo ready to go the moment the SC ruled.

Why is this one particular thing undermining democracy but not the rest? I forget the state but a few weeks ago they closed DMVs in 31 counties, take a wild guess about the skin tone of the majority of those counties. How can you even call it democracy when we're going back to passing laws to actively try and prevent the wrong people from voting, in light of that nullification seems like a feature not an accidental quirk.

Voter referenda and recall elections are controversial for many of the same reasons- an aggressive PR campaign by an interested party can effectively buy laws and legislatures. That these things are bad does not justify jury nullification- instead, they justify other changes to US legal and electoral systems. Popular sovereignty with a sample of n=12 is just as easily a tool of suppression as liberation. What it guarantees is a lack of full representation, accountability or transparency. Hell, most of the Batson-related caselaw is out of Alabama! If jury nullification seems like a "feature" to you, then remember:

Discendo Vox posted:

People arguing for jury nullification generally do so because they have a specific law in mind, and are willing to create a structural hole in the normal civic procedures of legislation to get rid of it.

There's a reason why every attorney that spends any time in the thread chimed in after the question first arose to say juries aren't supposed to find law.

Discendo Vox fucked around with this message at 05:05 on Oct 22, 2015

# ? Oct 22, 2015 04:47

WhiskeyJuvenile: Feb 15, 2002; by Nyc_Tattoo

Toasticle posted:

You've said that but haven't said why that's a bad thing, especially in light of the fact that the jury system is set up allow them to do exactly that.

Because historically, it has been used mostly to let white people off for killing black people.

# ? Oct 22, 2015 04:56

WhiskeyJuvenile: Feb 15, 2002; by Nyc_Tattoo

BloodFeastIslandMan posted:

Someone leaked the officer's story to a local news station.

http://www.wpbf.com/news/officer-shot-at-corey-jones-five-times-two-separate-instances/35942092?src=app

I could be wrong but i read that as the unmarked van pulled in front of Jones' car, blocking the front of it. I think anyone who carries a weapon for self-defense would reach for it if that happened to them in the middle of the night. The department has said almost nothing about what actually happened though, the union has even criticized the chief about it. http://www.wptv.com/news/region-n-p...-jones-shooting

from comments on an article about this:

quote:

You can�t have a state where private citizens are encouraged to arm themselves and stand their ground against a perceived threat, and plainclothes cops are expected to take the first shot against an unknown armed person. It�s a formula for killings just like this.

# ? Oct 22, 2015 05:48

Devor: Nov 30, 2004; Lurking more.

WhiskeyJuvenile posted:

Because historically, it has been used mostly to let white people off for killing black people.

Yeah, and that's the role of prosecutor

# ? Oct 22, 2015 12:59

OJ MIST 2 THE DICK: Sep 11, 2008; Anytime I need to see your face I just close my eyes
And I am taken to a place
Where your crystal minds and magenta feelings
Take up shelter in the base of my spine
Sweet like a chica cherry cola
-Cheap Trick; Nap Ghost

The student who was arrested for bringing a clock to school has was offered and accepted a full scholarship.

# ? Oct 22, 2015 22:25

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# ? May 28, 2024 14:09

Hail Mr. Satan!: Oct 3, 2009; by zen death robot

SDPD wants body cams on when guns come out

quote:

SAN DIEGO � San Diego police officials said they are asking the company that makes the department�s cameras to see if technology exists that would automatically turn on an officer�s body-worn camera when they draw their gun from its holster.

Chief Shelley Zimmerman made the announcement at police headquarters Wednesday, a day after a fatal officer-involved shooting in downtown. It was the second time in six months that San Diego officers failed to turn on their body cameras during a deadly shooting.

The first happened in April, when a veteran officer shot a man in a dark lot behind a Midway District bookstore. The officer was criticized for not turning his body camera on before interacting with the man, who ended up not being armed. In response, the department revised its policy to require that officers turn on their cameras before traffic stops, field interviews, detentions, arrests and any other �enforcement related contacts� � as long as it�s safe to do so.

Unlike the Midway shooting, Tuesday�s incident didn�t unfold after officers received a phone call. Instead, two motorcycle officers spotted 39-year-old Lamontez Jones creating a disturbance and disrupting traffic near F Street and Fifth Avenue about 3:10 p.m., homicide Capt. David Nisleit said. Jones ran off as officers rode toward him, and they followed him about a block to F Street and Sixth Avenue.

They had just gotten off their motorcycles when the man pulled what appeared to be a large-caliber pistol from a backpack he was wearing, Nisleit said. The officers shot at him, and he fell to the ground.

They repeatedly demanded Lamontez drop the weapon, but he sat up and again pointed it at the officers. They fired a second time. Paramedics arrived and took him to a hospital, where he died.

Investigators later determined the gun Lamontez brandished was a steel replica.

Zimmerman said she didn�t believe the officers had the ability to turn on their body cameras safely. The department�s body camera policy specifies that officer and public safety is more important than activating the devices.

�When our officers are facing the barrel of a handgun or some other life-threatening situation, we expect their first consideration is protecting themselves and our citizens,� Zimmerman said. �Common sense tells you that is reasonable.�

The department is spending $4 million dollars to deploy a system of body cameras for all its patrol officers.

She said a technology that automatically turns on an officer�s camera in critical situations, such as the one that occurred Tuesday, would allow footage to be captured without putting an officer or the public at risk.

The American Civil Liberties Union of San Diego and Imperial Counties called on the department to specifically explain why the officers involved didn�t turn on their cameras and how the agency will prevent a similar situation from occurring in the future. The civil rights group also said, if warranted, the officers involved should be disciplined if their actions violated the department�s existing policy.

�Body cameras are a tool to improve community-police relations,� the organization said in a statement. �If policy is weak or not enforced, these tools will not be helpful and could be detrimental in this goal. Body cameras will become a tool only for surveillance and enforcement, rather than accountability and transparency as was promised.�

Police officials also released more information about the man who was shot Tuesday.

Lamontez was wanted by Virginia authorities in connection with a robbery in May and was considered �armed and dangerous.�

�Obviously this is someone who has a violent history who came across our officers yesterday,� Nisleit said.

I like how their policy isn't "run the cameras on your whole shift" but rather "eh, turn them on maybe, if you get a chance."

Their proposed solution of only turning them on when a gun is pulled is hilarious too. More ammo for the armchair warriors who insist that the only moments that matter are literally the instant gunfire is exchanged and nothing leading up to it.

# ? Oct 25, 2015 15:51

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Debate & Discussion > Let's Debate the Police and Criminal Justice

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