Mintergalactic posted:

those are my words on the series

Tarranon posted:

Like I said it's been...Jesus 11 years since I saw the series so it's pretty murky

But I'd be interested in seeing your if you have the time/inclination to share them. At the time it was released the ending wasn't very popular at all, but I'm glad to see people revisiting it all these years later.

Bad Seafood posted:

I loved the ending then and I still love it now. I've only come to appreciate its nuances with time, but I've always liked the ending.

I should be going to bed but I'll see if I can come up with a few words for you. I won't throw them under spoiler tags though so LITTLEORV IF YOU'RE READING THIS THREAD BETWEEN EPISODES OR SOMETHING DON'T READ MY NEXT BIG WALL OF TEXT unless you're done or don't care or whatever.

Bad Seafood posted:

Vicious and Spike's relationship is fundamentally different from those between Mugen and Jin and their respective adversaries. All of them were foreshadowed in various ways and none of them needed to be physically present prior to their eventual introductions to instill the same effect.

In fact, it's actually incredibly fitting thematically that none of them show up before the final arc.

Knorth posted:

Ohhhh poo poo, dog v. bird was intense! And now the final mansion, with ...nine episodes left?! oh my god this is going to be ridiculous

Knorth posted:

Ohhhh poo poo, dog v. bird was intense! And now the final mansion, with ...nine episodes left?! oh my god this is going to be ridiculous

littleorv posted:

Now to pick a show that will replace Champloo in my anime rotation.

The Colonel posted:

Just watch Gunbuster.

littleorv posted:

Now to pick a show that will replace Champloo in my anime rotation.

Stairmaster posted:

was lorv supposed to post this

Linnaeus posted:

Lemon Curdistan posted:

Thanks for all the birthday wishes, chat thread.

Bad Seafood posted:

One of the central themes of Samurai Champloo (as with Cowboy Bebop) is the idea of escaping one's past. It's a pretty popular theme actually that pops up in a lot of anime if you know where to look (for differing reasons, depending on when it came out). All three of our main characters are chained to their past in different ways, as are ultimately their final adversaries. In the case of Mugen and Jin, this takes the form of their "Sins." For Fuu, instead, it's "Resentment."

Prior to the start of the series, Mugen was a pirate. He's killed for money and for loot and because he just didn't like some folks and because he got off on facing tougher opponents. No matter where he goes he's on the wrong side of the law; both sides of the law. Of course, eventually, his crimes catch up with him. Jin, likewise, was a student at a respected school. One night he killed his master, leading a number of his former classmates to come after his head. Although neither of these men have any place in particular to go, or any place in particular they were thinking of going, they continue wandering, drifting, anywhere to avoid facing their pasts head-on.

Fuu's different. Her father left when she was a child and her mother died shortly thereafter. She never forgotten her mother and never forgiven her father, and she feels like she needs to give him one good whack for mom before she can move forward with her life. Although she committed no sin (not in the same way as Jin or Mugen anyway), she feels emotionally burdened with the mistakes of her father. So she sets off on her journey, bringing these two goons along.

So the show moves along and eventually we reach the island where Fuu's father is hiding. The reason he's in hiding it turns out is because he's a Japanese Christian, one of the key members of the Shimabara Rebellion, which ends up being important in a lot of ways we'll discuss later. Fuu's father, for better or worse, is her "Adversary" that she's come all this way to challenge. Jin and Mugen's end boss engagements come in a different form. All of them are similarly tied up in the past.

Mugen's pursuers, three brothers, turn out to have formerly been merchants he screwed over during his pirating days. Mugen only ever met one of them, the eldest - you can actually see Mugen attacking him in his flashback during the Misguided Miscreants arc - but all three were punished for the loss of the shipment. They make a living now as mercenaries, and have been hunting Mugen down with the intention to kill him. The chain that binds the three of them in this case is "Revenge," and it's perfectly fitting that Mugen's never really crossed paths with them before (barring the eldest, very briefly). The idea at play here is that Mugen's actions had consequences far beyond his ability to know of them. Mugen probably never thought of himself as anything more than a simple criminal, but his crimes ended up deeply effective the lives of men he'd never met. Who else's life has he ruined without ever even knowing them? The brother's grudge against Mugen is entirely one-sided because that's the point. Mugen has no intimate relationship with them, they're just three people whose daily existence he carelessly disrupted without even thinking about it. These are the wages of his sin. Of course, in their hunt for Mugen, the brothers have become quite sinful themselves. Sin begets more sin, and the cycle continues. Although Mugen cannot be held accountable for all the damage the brothers do of their own accord, the fact remains he created the circumstances which turned them into monsters.

Jin's ultimate opponent is also someone he's never met, in this case a respected samurai and retired assassin in the employ of the Shogunate: Kagetoki Kariya, "The Hand of the Gods." It turns out Kariya's roll in Jin's life is not unlike Mugen's roll in the brothers' lives. Jin represented nothing more than a political obstacle to Kariya, so he ordered Jin's master to kill him...only for Jin to display the fruits of his training. Kariya ruined Jin's life, forcing him to kill his beloved master and live his life on the run, for political convenience. Now he's here to handle Jin personally. Kariya's deal, the chain that binds him, is "Nostalgia;" in this case nostalgia for a time before he was born. Kariya flatly tells Jin he feels nothing but enmity for this "Modern" age, and yearns for that noble world of his ancestors which now belongs to history. He was "Born in the wrong era," and so manipulates those around himself to construct a false environment to foster and cultivate his delusions of what a samurai's ideal world should be. He admits there are no lords worth serving, but he continues to do so as it allows him to spin his beautiful lie. It is only natural that a true, proper samurai would have a master to serve, no?

Fuu's father is an old man. He's dying. He fears he'll die without ever making peace with his family. His chain is "Regret." When Fuu finds him and sees him in this sorry state, she can't bring herself to hate him. Kariya shows up and announces he plans to kill her father. Before her father dies, he is able to attain some measure of absolution, expressing his true feelings to his daughter. He is freed of his regrets, then killed.

While I wouldn't say Samurai Champloo is a particularly religious show, the Christianity of Fuu's father (and possibly Fuu?) carries a certain resonance given the themes of the story. One of the core tenements of Christianity is the idea of grace, forgiveness; that your sins can be washed away. Fuu's father seeks absolution for his mistakes while Fuu herself desires an answer for her mother's suffering. Mugen and Jin do not explicitly chase forgiveness or understanding, but manage to find "Salvation" by accompanying Fuu on her journey. Mugen trades his life for Fuu's at an old abandoned church, and Jin finds someone (Not a "Lord," but hearkening back to that language) to dedicate his life to, both of which contain softly Christian parallels. Jin also offers to give up his life for Fuu's, and defeats Kariya using a technique that first requires the enemy to first pierce his side. Kariya is defeated by Jin's selflessness, while the brothers tormenting Mugen are undone by the tools of their own hatred. "He who lives by the sword dies by the sword." Meanwhile, by finding the "Father," our heroes acquire a measure of peace and absolution from the sins of the past.

It's possible I'm overthinking a few of these story beats, some of which are very universal and not explicitly tied to any specific faith or cultural tradition, but I feel it fits since the show brings up Japanese Christianity as a significant plot point at several intervals. Furthermore, Watanabe (like Oshii) is a director whose work is rife with references to Western culture and civilization (references he's never been afraid to wear on his sleeve), so it wouldn't surprise me to learn he did some digging and found some ideas he felt like incorporating.

In any case, what matters here is Mugen and Jin are freed from their shackles of the past by their own selflessness towards and friendship with Fuu, escaping their prisons of selfish isolationism, no longer having to live in fear of age-old mistakes. The two make a clean break from their past, symbolized by breaking their swords against one another's. Our three friends then recover and move forward with their lives, splitting up as the reach a crossroads. Fuu admits the whole thing was kicked off by a scam, but nobody bares anybody any ill will for it. They smile and go their separate ways, since each of us has our own future to attend to. Maybe they'll cross paths again sometime. Maybe they won't. Regardless, for the first time in all three of their lives, they're all looking forward instead of behind.

Reds posted:

I love the shounen version of sports and how every incredibly minor thing is this huge momentous special technique..

Tarranon posted:

do Japanese people just not hug or something what is going on with this persona game!

Knorth posted:

Oh! I must have missed that. Happy birthday!

Reds posted:

I love the shounen version of sports and how every incredibly minor thing is this huge momentous special technique..

Tarranon posted:

ah, I'm humbled that you'd take the time to write something so carefully considered for a stranger. I took my time with, it was a great read.

Although I still can't remember much of the ending I agree that your interpretation is thematically consistent with what I recall. And even at the time the series' use of Christian iconography and invoking Christianity as a plot point stood out to me. While it's historically relevant for the time champloo takes place, the amount of attention it receives is greater than honestly any other anime I can think of. So I don't think you're off base at all approaching the text from a theological perspective. From a certain perspective all religion is myth, and what's myth if not stories about who we are and where we've come from.

If nothing else I think I will aim to rewatch the series again. Thanks again for the write up.

Knorth posted:

These are some good words for a good anime

I look forward to the inevitable simulwatch

Knorth posted:

* reading subs 'Come in, Cool Ice'

Huh that's a pretty silly name

* hears Dio say the line

:dies:

Bad Seafood posted:

A whole lot of words

Knorth posted:

* reading subs 'Come in, Cool Ice'

Huh that's a pretty silly name

* hears Dio say the line

:dies:

Reds posted:

I love the shounen version of sports and how every incredibly minor thing is this huge momentous special technique..

Reds posted:

I can't remember, how long is it from his introduction until his fight?

Orv, thank you for not quoting the entire post.