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See I thought the writing was quite good until then. It just felt like the writer was disinterested in the typical alien trying to take over climax bits, and I think it would have been a better episode if those had just been taken out and replaced with...stuff that wasn't it. The real meat was in the Capaldi-Williams two-hander parts.
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Oct 25, 2015 15:15
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I really do honestly wonder if there's a clause in a contract somewhere that states there has to be a monster in every episode, because it was such an afterthought here in an otherwise well-written script.
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Oct 25, 2015 15:31
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There was definitely a lot of dialogue, especially towards the end, that sounded...George Lucas-y? Stuff that works on the page but sounds stilted out loud. I agree, the monster stuff, and indeed basically all of the standard Doctor Who stuff, felt obligatory. The first two acts of this episode are probably the least it's ever felt like Who. Which is totally fine; I'd rather they'd just continued that to its conclusion instead of throwing in random baddies. I really dig how they're testing themselves with the two-parter format this year, so I wish they'd been a little more similarly brave with the structure of this episode.
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Oct 25, 2015 15:46
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Neowyrm posted:I actually thought it was quite weird that the crowd was totally okay with her killing that dude and opening up a portal to hell fire, apparently It was a very blase reaction from a people who's normal reaction would have been to kill the witch people immediately for the magic fire and bringing a guy back to life. Sam Swift would be on a pyre, not joking with the hangman in the bar afterwards. The totes cool attitude by the villagers was very anachronistic and it was jarring, but not the only thing. One of the soldiers was a black guy, and I thought "OK, I guess that could have happened in some rare circumstance" but then I noticed a bunch of the villagers were black or Indian, ie they looked like modern London. Now you might say I'm racist for not saying "well why CAN'T they be diverse? Check and mate bigot!"  But I remember in the past Doctor Who was very sober looking at the realism of our history with race and acceptance in things like Ace seeing the "NO COLOUREDS" sign in 1963 or Martha having to deal with being a black maid in pre WWI England. Now Doctor Who takes place in some sort of chill quasi-modern world in all eras, which I don't like. When they show characters of varied ethnicities, sexualities, or with disabilities existing in a positive, integrated "no big deal" way in the future, the contrast is somewhat muted when that goes on in the historical past.
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Oct 25, 2015 15:46
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Well, what kind of racism would you expect to see in a Civil War-era British village?
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Oct 25, 2015 16:19
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Doctor Who is a fictional show about a time travelling mad man in a box. Not a historical documentary.
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Oct 25, 2015 16:21
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anastazius posted:Doctor Who is a fictional show about a time travelling mad man in a box. Not a historical documentary. Also it's a show that tries to be open to all audiences. Spending an episode shackled to a "we hate them [race of choice]/gays/different people round here" setting probably isn't going to be enjoyable for the respective parts of the audience and just drag the story down with it anyway.
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Oct 25, 2015 16:33
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Mortanis posted:They toned down the worst of the rear end in a top hat vibe They've toned it down to basically nothing, he's just Older Matt Smith now. I miss that "dark hero" vibe.
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Oct 25, 2015 16:50
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There's also the whole issue of not wanting to be a dick and deny an actor or extra a part because of their skin color.
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Oct 25, 2015 18:11
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They had Maisie prancing around in 18th century clothing living in a 19th century house while the village and villagers were straight medieval. I really don't think they care very much at all about being historically accurate and they probably shouldn't be.
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Oct 25, 2015 18:25
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Cleretic posted:Contrast with In the Forest of the Night, which was clearly the product of somebody poo poo at writing and poo poo at messages. I still can't get over this; Frank Cottrell-Boyce has won awards for his children's fiction. I have to wonder if we'll ever know what happened that that episode turned out like it did.
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Oct 25, 2015 18:26
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Greyhawk posted:They had Maisie prancing around in 18th century clothing living in a 19th century house while the village and villagers were straight medieval. I really don't think they care very much at all about being historically accurate and they probably shouldn't be. Honestly THIS bugged me more than anything because I couldn't figure out how and when and where the gently caress all of this happened. The visuals were all over the place. The writing was kind of confusing as well, notably with how Maisie is supposed to...work. Like if the immortality bullshit thing is going to hardlock her at whatever age she was, instead of allowing her to grow until it becomes detrimental, then her brain should have been hardlocked too, development wise. Meaning her memories should have been fine and if anything she'd have a harder time recalling things that came AFTER her immortality- certainly wouldn't be able to become a master of everything the way she implied. Also she was moderately insufferable for large swaths of the episode and I just kept thinking 'Wow, Jack handles this so much better'. Was very happy to get a Jack shout out, though the idea of them hooking up is skeevy.
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Oct 25, 2015 18:33
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Wheat Loaf posted:I still can't get over this; Frank Cottrell-Boyce has won awards for his children's fiction. I have to wonder if we'll ever know what happened that that episode turned out like it did. Yeah, that's what made it worse - Frank Cottrell-Boyce is apparently a REALLY good writer so it just makes the episode all the more confusing.
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Oct 25, 2015 18:34
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anastazius posted:Doctor Who is a fictional show about a time travelling mad man in a box. Not a historical documentary. If the show had in any way been seriously looking at the setting and it's inequalities or anything, I'd be more invested, but as they established an entirely flippant tone early on, I can't really say it's worth excluding people for comparatively pedantic reasons. I mean, personally, I'd be really excited for a Doctor Who that cared about science and history. I think it could be every bit as fun and also feel more... intellectually wholesome. We don't have that though. Not remotely. So might as well at least let something nice come from that kind of attitude and have some nice background racial diversity.
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Oct 25, 2015 18:37
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quote:@RichardsonBF: A huge @bigfinish announcement tomorrow. A secret we've been keeping for a year. In the morning, the amazing news will be out there... They sure have been announcing a lot recently.
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Oct 25, 2015 19:13
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As long as in any given story they're treating "The Past" in the same way that Shakespeare treated The Past, sure, historical accuracy is not important. That part 2 was set in The Past, and when exactly it is is in no way important, so fine, cast whoever you want. I can (for instance) go to the Globe and watch them doing Julius Caesar and it doesn't matter that they've got black actors as Cassius and Mark Antony; everything else about "The Past" is so far abstracted that the casting doesn't matter. Where racially-accurate casting becomes important is when the exact period is important somehow to the story, which Doctor Who does far, far more rarely than you might think. Take Human Nature, for instance. Even if you switch in another companion for Martha and ditch her racism subplot, it now detracts greatly from the period setting if you have a couple of black kids as background students at the school and an Indian guy as the mathematics master; the exact period in that story is important enough that everything has to be right, and casting it race-blind then becomes as jarringly anachronistic as giving them all mobile phones. Trin Tragula fucked around with this message at 19:23 on Oct 25, 2015 |
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Oct 25, 2015 19:19
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Tavarin posted:They sure have been announcing a lot recently. This is probably the 10/Donna audios confirmation. I mean, it's clear they have the ability to use characters from the revived series, what with the Torchwood stuff and River popping up in the next Doom Coalition, and the War Doctor audios. So this is either the 10/Donna stuff that was speculated/reported earlier...or if there truly is a god that wants me to be happy, it's a series of 9th doctor dramas.
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Oct 25, 2015 19:20
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jivjov posted:This is probably the 10/Donna audios confirmation. If it's 9th Doctor, I would have to jump back into the Big Finish hole and listen to drat near everything.
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Oct 25, 2015 19:24
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Tavarin posted:They sure have been announcing a lot recently. There's also this picture with that.  It's not indicative of anything, but that Tardis exterior is Tennants. Pesky Splinter fucked around with this message at 19:31 on Oct 25, 2015 |
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Oct 25, 2015 19:25
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Ah yes, I forgot the time that Cthulhu travelled with the Doctor.
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Oct 25, 2015 19:30
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Cerv posted:"purple - the colour of death!" I had to rewind it to make sure I'd heard that right. This episode was bloody weird, and mostly dogshit. jivjov posted:This is probably the 10/Donna audios confirmation. I don't think the universe is kind enough to give us more Eccleston. Much as I wish it was.
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Oct 25, 2015 19:30
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jivjov posted:Ah yes, I forgot the time that Cthulhu travelled with the Doctor. Eighth Doctor. Amnesia. It happens 
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Oct 25, 2015 19:36
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Pesky Splinter posted:Eighth Doctor. Amnesia. It happens Ooh, maybe this is the triumphant return of CGI Snake Master.
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Oct 25, 2015 19:37
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Europe was a lot more racially diverse than people often think during the Early Modern period, though that was mostly places on the Medterranian. People would move to places like Venice and Marseilles because they were merchants and they'd become naturalized citizens of said places and so would their children. it wasn't a large population but there being a black person here and there would not be out of place in Medieval Europe, but this was clearly 17th century England, post-civil war, so I'm not sure if that would have been as diverse because Cromwell and the Parliamentarians had some odd notions about the English race. Though as was said, they don't want to be a jerk and deny people jobs for historical accuracy. Also, I thought she lived in an era approrpate house, it looks suitably like an old Tudor style manor house, but with heavy, dark furniture that would have been popular in the Stuart era. Her dress was rather showy for the era, as Cromwell being a Puritan and they wanted women dressing modestly, plus the surviving nobility didn't want to flaunt their wealth. It wouldn't have been out of place in the Stuart era. Which I guess the Civil War still is as after Cromwell died there was the Restoration and Charles II's son became James II. Or is that considered the Restoration Era? It's been forever since I studied anything of that Era. I always felt that them always having a monster is because Doctor Who is still considered a Kids show and an hour of a deep conversation about the realities of being an immortal normal person wouldn't be to exciting, so fire breathing Kilrathi.
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Oct 25, 2015 19:39
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twistedmentat posted:fire breathing Kilrathi. Ahh, thank you for finally reminding me of what I kept thinking he looked like.
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Oct 25, 2015 19:40
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jivjov posted:Ah yes, I forgot the time that Cthulhu travelled with the Doctor. This would be the best thing.
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Oct 25, 2015 20:28
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yknow the doctor HAS met Satan, why hasn't there been an episode about the Doctor vs the Elder Things, lovecraftian unknowable things from beyond the veil would fit in with the current show so well. I mean flatline and some other monsters of the week have some lovecraft shades but straight up saying, "yeah we're doing lovecraft things this episode, Doctor is meeting the Yith" or something would be pretty cool.
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Oct 25, 2015 20:35
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jivjov posted:Ahh, thank you for finally reminding me of what I kept thinking he looked like. Comparison's to Ron Pearlman as the Beast from 80s Beauty and the Beast TV show were already made, and it was either Kilrathi or Kzinti for space cats. I guess there are also Mrrshans. I guess Doctor Who is very Lovecraftian in its origonal sense; its a universe filled with immensely powerful beings that we and other lesser races are nothing more than ants to, and it is cold and uncaring. It seems like the Time Lords during the Time War were pretty much that level of power and arrogance.
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Oct 25, 2015 20:40
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Putting the Time Lords into the same pantheon as Cthulhu is a brilliant idea.
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Oct 25, 2015 20:44
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twistedmentat posted:I guess Doctor Who is very Lovecraftian in its origonal sense; its a universe filled with immensely powerful beings that we and other lesser races are nothing more than ants to, and it is cold and uncaring. It seems like the Time Lords during the Time War were pretty much that level of power and arrogance. We can't just wake Cthulhu up! There's paperwork involved! And hats!  e: Seriously though it's right there. Omega/Rassilon used some sort of weird orby thing to communicate to "lesser races" in the past and it got interpreted as Yog-Sothoth. Because Time Lords Don't Interfere<tm>, they're locked outside known time and space. Boom.
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Oct 25, 2015 20:48
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Jerusalem posted:A lot of people are going with the idea that Clara is going to die, but I think they've been pushing more the idea that she's going to leave. We will find out in four weeks. Given that the actress quit after landing the lead in something else, I'm going to go with Dead dead. With a capital D.
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Oct 25, 2015 20:54
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I thought Lion-O was a tharil at first and was disappointed to learn he was just a tharil knockoff. Did anyone expect The Visitation of all things to ever get a shout out? I guess the presence of comedy highwaymen made it hard to resist.
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Oct 25, 2015 20:56
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Isn't the Great Intelligence Yog-Sothoth?
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Oct 25, 2015 21:00
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Greyhawk posted:They had Maisie prancing around in 18th century clothing living in a 19th century house while the village and villagers were straight medieval. I really don't think they care very much at all about being historically accurate and they probably shouldn't be. I am glad it just wasn't another loving Victorian London episode. Also, how long do you think Maisie had to camp at the school gates to get a chance to be photoed like that. And it would be amazing to see Sam Swift in a future future episode, but hes dead serious and wants to help mankind for his past sins.
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Oct 25, 2015 21:06
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Acne Rain posted:yknow the doctor HAS met Satan, why hasn't there been an episode about the Doctor vs the Elder Things, lovecraftian unknowable things from beyond the veil would fit in with the current show so well. I mean flatline and some other monsters of the week have some lovecraft shades but straight up saying, "yeah we're doing lovecraft things this episode, Doctor is meeting the Yith" or something would be pretty cool. http://www.bigfinish.com/releases/v/lurkers-at-sunlight-s-edge-307
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Oct 25, 2015 21:14
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Trin Tragula posted:As long as in any given story they're treating "The Past" in the same way that Shakespeare treated The Past, sure, historical accuracy is not important. That part 2 was set in The Past, and when exactly it is is in no way important, so fine, cast whoever you want. I can (for instance) go to the Globe and watch them doing Julius Caesar and it doesn't matter that they've got black actors as Cassius and Mark Antony; everything else about "The Past" is so far abstracted that the casting doesn't matter. If the importance of the casting becomes not offending the actors and making sure to cast a diverse quota of people in a mix of roles of good/bad and having people of color and women in power in all eras, then it's safe to say Human Nature could not be made the same way in 2015, at least not raising the same questions. I think in a 2015 version you would have black students, and Indian math teacher, and Martha's skin color would not have been remarked on at all. She'd probably be cast as another teacher at the school. It's odd, because we've had these arguments before in these threads and I almost hate to bring it up, but I feel I'm arguing on the other side now--whereas before if someone brought up race I'd say they were seeing racism where it didn't exist, now I'm saying that omitting it as a subject is worse and everyone's like "but what about being racist to the actors you're casting?!" If the BBC does a casting call for "English village in the 1600s" and specifies it be all white then they could be accused of racism to actors? Or alienating non-white child viewers who will feel sad that there is nobody that looks like them in that village? Surely hiding from children the fact that we had some less enlightened periods of history is worse? A Human Nature which tells the story of an artificially diverse British public school in the 1910s is if anything a more insidious form of whitewashing in my opinion--it's giving kids a false narrative of the past which makes them incapable of understanding how bad things were and how bad they could be. It's like saying racism basically didn't exist. I also don't think the dumbing down of Doctor Who into a historically inaccurate fantasy is something to be celebrating.  jivjov posted:This is probably the 10/Donna audios confirmation. Good, maybe BF will finally reopen the goddamn forums.
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Oct 25, 2015 21:19
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I did like that the alien-of-the-week was from Draco Leonis, therefore was a fire-breathing lion. Maybe like isn't the word I'm looking for. I guess I'm just glad he wasn't from Stercus Minor. I have mixed feelings on the episode as a whole, it was a curate's egg of nuggets of good quiet set pieces in a matrix of terrible dialog choices (ahhhhh purple, the color of death!) and odd characterization.
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Oct 25, 2015 21:22
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Is there a good (as in the opinions seem generally sane) review site for BF audios? I haven't listened to any on a regular basis for some years now (like... since 2008 I guess), and I'm not sure what I should check out that's come out in relatively recent times.
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Oct 25, 2015 21:31
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Astroman posted:If the importance of the casting becomes not offending the actors and making sure to cast a diverse quota of people in a mix of roles of good/bad and having people of color and women in power in all eras, then it's safe to say Human Nature could not be made the same way in 2015, at least not raising the same questions. I think in a 2015 version you would have black students, and Indian math teacher, and Martha's skin color would not have been remarked on at all. She'd probably be cast as another teacher at the school. I'm liking your points here I think that as long as there are plenty of present/future/completely alien set episodes with good diversity, accurately representing stuff that's ostensibly in the real past wouldn't be too much of a problem.
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Oct 25, 2015 21:38
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Astroman posted:I also don't think the dumbing down of Doctor Who into a historically inaccurate fantasy is something to be celebrating. I agree Astroman posted:Surely hiding from children the fact that we had some less enlightened periods of history is worse? I agree with this too, but DW probably isn't the place to teach children that the human species is terrible
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Oct 25, 2015 21:49
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