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So for example you could argue the internet would be an example of another utility created by the advances in technology. I presume you folks don't see insurance as actually adding any value in terms of actual health outcomes right. Obviously there is disagreement in the country about state provision for such utilities. How would you feel if instead of extending insurance coverage to all, the states role was one to force down costs?
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Oct 26, 2015 04:02
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Necc0 posted:Yeah and it's pretty impressive that we're still here arguing the fundamentals of it over
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Oct 26, 2015 04:05
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sullat posted:And until germ theory was developed, doctors could spread disease, too. Doctors are much worse about hygiene habits and preventing disease transmission than you think.
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Oct 26, 2015 04:06
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Popular Thug Drink posted:healthcare has always been a utility, between choosing to live or die, nearly all rational actors choose to live. healthcare is necessary like shelter or food. the problem is that healthcare is usually more expensive than most other basic needs, because anybody can build a house or grow/cook food, but you need to have special skills and equipment to provide quality healthcare, meaning that there's usually more demand than supply, meaning that the wealthy can always get the best healthcare and depending on your context in time/space if you're poor you may be poo poo out of luck Just coming back to this. Do you think housing and food provision due to technological changes have moved from being a low cost "self provided" utility to being one that is more much closer to healthcare?
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Oct 26, 2015 04:06
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KingFisher posted:So for example you could argue the internet would be an example of another utility created by the advances in technology. The theoretical benefits to insurance are sound, but lack of oversight has allowed insurers to basically skirt the rules regarding reserve fund reimbursement and premium setting--basically allowing them to continue to charge more, pay out less and fight to deny as many claims as possible on technicalities or medical need. The healthcare question has been solved in actual-civilized nations all over the world--but the reason our governments continues to fight it is that human suffering is incredibly profitable. Because our government really only has corporate interests at heart.
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Oct 26, 2015 04:06
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KingFisher posted:So for example you could argue the internet would be an example of another utility created by the advances in technology. Access to preventative healthcare adds value to patients who are less likely to need more serious treatments later on.
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Oct 26, 2015 04:08
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If "things being lovely in the past does not justify keeping them lovely" is not a good enough answer, then I could say right around 1948. Edit: Geez, moved fast.
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Oct 26, 2015 04:09
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LeeMajors posted:The theoretical benefits to insurance are sound, but lack of oversight has allowed insurers to basically skirt the rules regarding reserve fund reimbursement and premium setting--basically allowing them to continue to charge more, pay out less and fight to deny as many claims as possible on technicalities or medical need. Do you think insurance could be the kind of thing software could manage? Like rates and such given rules kind always pay out claims and with known inputs?
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Oct 26, 2015 04:10
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KingFisher posted:Thanks Necco so this is sort of utility by choice as each state has the surplus to pay for the newly discovered need for healthcare. There isn't any "utility by choice," and it doesn't have anything to do with economic surpluses or the idea that health care is a newly discovered need. National health insurance/care systems were rolled out in each country under unique circumstances, mostly related to social and political conditions. The UK, for instance, prior to the 1940s, had previously relied on a rather recognizable patchy network of what was essentially private insurance organizations and hospitals funded by benefactors who provided services for the poor. The 1942 Beveridge Report basically said "it's a bloody great idea for us to have a national health care system because it's much more efficient than this patchwork and helps us drive down costs, and, in fact, rolling it out for everyone's even more efficient than some ridiculously complex system for just the poor, oh, and it's also the right thing to do because everyone deserves health care". Every single political party agreed that this was a great idea, and three years later, bang, the NHS. KingFisher posted:I presume you folks don't see insurance as actually adding any value in terms of actual health outcomes right. Insurance is incredibly valuable in creating beneficial health outcomes: people with insurance can actually access preventative health care without going broke or crossing their fingers that the hospital will forgive them for running into the ER. Full treatment of many chronic diseases also practically requires insurance so you can have additional time with the health care system frequently required for someone to fully diagnose and treat the cause of the illness, rather than the symptoms. It'd be awesome if the US government could somehow unilaterally represent the entire nation's health care need — say, by extending insurance coverage to all, and then acting as a negotiator on behalf of hundreds of millions of people — but as it is our state and our health care system is fragmented into pieces that make negotiation difficult at best.
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Oct 26, 2015 04:11
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Joementum posted:Flashback to the time that Harry Reid won another term because the leading Republican suggested healthcare savings accounts and bartering with your doctor. The funny thing is that, when people made fun of her for this, her staff claimed that she meant "haggle" or "bargain" instead of "barter". "Doctor, unless you can treat my heart attack for under $500, I'm going somewhere else!" It also has one of my favorite nicknames for a political gaffe: Chickens for Checkups
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Oct 26, 2015 04:12
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KingFisher posted:Do you think insurance could be the kind of thing software could manage? Like rates and such given rules kind always pay out claims and with known inputs? I'm pretty sure this is what the Japanese system uses? The cost for particular kinds of procedures is always the same. EDIT: KingFisher posted:Just coming back to this. Do you think housing and food provision due to technological changes have moved from being a low cost "self provided" utility to being one that is more much closer to healthcare? It did ages ago. The US and many other countries give the poor benefits for food. And in the UK, the same Beveridge Report that acted as the seed for the NHS demanded the government provide "adequate income" and "adequate housing" as well as "adequate health care." Combed Thunderclap fucked around with this message at 04:16 on Oct 26, 2015 |
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Oct 26, 2015 04:13
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Combed Thunderclap posted:
Which if I understand correctly, the tories are attempting to gut like a dead pig. 
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Oct 26, 2015 04:19
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Klaus88 posted:Which if I understand correctly, the tories are attempting to gut like a dead pig. I think you mean gently caress? It's literally the only thing I know about UK politics at this point.
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Oct 26, 2015 04:22
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KingFisher given the tone of concern trolling I think you'd love the singaporean system. People are required to save at least 10% of their income in a tax free combined health/retirement account and forced to use that to pay for healthcare. Of course, the government also sets all the prices and whatnot on a sliding scale based on income.
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Oct 26, 2015 04:31
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Joementum posted:Flashback to the time that Harry Reid won another term because the leading Republican suggested healthcare savings accounts and bartering with your doctor. For some reason I always think this was Sharon Angle. Mixing up my crazy people that lost winnable elections
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Oct 26, 2015 04:34
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I mean the fact is the necessity of health care was already recognized and formalized before Washington DC existed. The only thing that changed was how to fund it.
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Oct 26, 2015 04:35
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Peven Stan posted:KingFisher given the tone of concern trolling I think you'd love the singaporean system. People are required to save at least 10% of their income in a tax free combined health/retirement account and forced to use that to pay for healthcare. Of course, the government also sets all the prices and whatnot on a sliding scale based on income. I'm no concern troll sir, but that Japanese system doesn't sound so bad. Also mandatory savings would probably be good as well. I am genuinely interested in the discovery of these new utilities and the need for state provision.
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Oct 26, 2015 04:35
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Why did we need the Enlightenment Era when we had perfectly functional feudalism and monarchy?
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Oct 26, 2015 04:40
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archangelwar posted:Why did we need the Enlightenment Era when we had perfectly functional feudalism and monarchy? A very valid question. Insert that Aztec sacrifice comic here. I for one am intensely interested in a post-wesphalian system. Any of you luminaries have input on the post liberal-democracy future?
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Oct 26, 2015 04:43
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Good Citizen posted:Sharon Angle Oh god https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q3LE15AyT5g
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Oct 26, 2015 04:48
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KingFisher posted:A very valid question. There's not going to be much after the nuclear war that rages in the aftermath of the collapse of cross continent merged democracies in 5700 ad. The spacer worlds are primarily going to be knockoff liberal democracies once each grows large enough to no longer intense cooperation at all times just to stay alive. Eventually the galactic empire rises, but communication and travel limitations mean every subject world is pretty autonomous for the first couple thousand years until substantially improved faster than light travel and near instant ftl communication lines are practical.
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Oct 26, 2015 04:50
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Nintendo Kid posted:There's not going to be much after the nuclear war that rages in the aftermath of the collapse of cross continent merged democracies in 5700 ad. The spacer worlds are primarily going to be knockoff liberal democracies once each grows large enough to no longer intense cooperation at all times just to stay alive. Eventually the galactic empire rises, but communication and travel limitations mean every subject world is pretty autonomous for the first couple thousand years until substantially improved faster than light travel and near instant ftl communication lines are practical. I'm holding you to this, Fishmech.
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Oct 26, 2015 04:58
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Yeah those two and Christine Odonnel always stand out as the 'holy gently caress these people were too crazy to win even in 2010' category.
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Oct 26, 2015 04:59
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Talking about crazy whatever happened to Michelle Bachman?
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Oct 26, 2015 05:12
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Hollismason posted:Talking about crazy whatever happened to Michelle Bachman? She retired before being booted out of the House for ethics violations. Probably off hating that she's a beard.
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Oct 26, 2015 05:18
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Good Citizen posted:Yeah those two and Christine Odonnel always stand out as the 'holy gently caress these people were too crazy to win even in 2010' category. Oh my lord Christine O'Donnell. I remember researching Angle and O'Donnell back in 2010 and I still distinctly remember my face shifting from disbelief straight to  Hollismason posted:Talking about crazy whatever happened to Michelle Bachman? Retired just in time to duck a bunch of ethics investigations and an FBI investigation relating to the under-the-table financial poo poo that went down during her 2012 presidential campaign. Occasionally pops up on genuinely insane millenarian evangelical media outlets to chat about how whatever new thing is a sign of the End Times.
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Oct 26, 2015 05:21
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KingFisher posted:I'm no concern troll sir, but that Japanese system doesn't sound so bad. Also mandatory savings would probably be good as well. *reads your red text* No, you are a concern troll. Get hosed with your passive-aggressive lines about "the discovery of these new utilities." While you're at it, go broke due to a treatable but expensive illness.
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Oct 26, 2015 05:21
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I didn't know about the ethics violations. Is she still doing Gay Conversion Therapy ?
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Oct 26, 2015 05:21
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Hollismason posted:I didn't know about the ethics violations. Is she still doing Gay Conversion Therapy ? Marcus is still running his "Christian counseling clinic" thing, apparently. I feel like I'm the host of a late-nite "Where Are They Now?" show. It's kind of surreal, seeing all these familiar old faces. We had such good times together.  I always like the part where they gently caress off into the wilderness and are never seen again the best. All that attention and their national media platform, gone in an instant.
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Oct 26, 2015 05:27
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Combed Thunderclap posted:Marcus is still running his "Christian counseling clinic" thing, apparently. http://youtu.be/53OW517_oxM
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Oct 26, 2015 05:30
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Hodgepodge posted:*reads your red text* you can always trust redtext  Otoh when the redtext fits the fact that the guy is slyly implying that the poor should die in the streets of treatable diseases... Im honestly curious about the beer heiress bit, in truth
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Oct 26, 2015 05:33
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Joementum posted:Flashback to the time that Harry Reid won another term because the leading Republican suggested healthcare savings accounts and bartering with your doctor. Good flashback. How's that senate race for Reid's old seat looking now that Sandoval decided not to run?
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Oct 26, 2015 05:36
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 Poor guy. Just imagine all the fabulosity that could have been strutting down Commercial Street in Ptown.EDIT: Also saw the name of someone else we haven't seen in a while...
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Oct 26, 2015 05:44
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I wonder what the numbers would look like if you took medical premiums and expenses and called them taxes. I also wonder what the tax burden would look like if you spread that over the existing progressive tax curve. 6000 premium on a 50k medium salary is a huge burden.
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Oct 26, 2015 05:59
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Magres posted:you can always trust redtext This is why you always make your redtext a link to a relevant or, if possible, archetypical post! Get with the program, goons! I try to click on every redtext
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Oct 26, 2015 06:16
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KingFisher posted:So for example you could argue the internet would be an example of another utility created by the advances in technology. Can you stop dancing around all this and just come out and say "I want you to die! Die and lower my taxes."
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Oct 26, 2015 06:17
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Current HSA's aren't a bad proposition for the young & healthy or wealthy, but it does take foresight. Are they good for everyone or a replacement for ACA? Lol. HSA's are paired with high deductible insurance that usually cover basic preventive medicine. For young healthy people, the smart thing to do is save/spend out of a personal cash account. Fund the personal account so that it covers ~2 years of max deductibles and replenish at the end of the year. Since you can redeem out of your HSA account for periods outside of the year medical services were paid for, one can accumulate the amount they can draw tax free. Since the monies you put in an HSA is tax deductible, are not taxed when redeemed for qualified medical expenses and allow you to put your money in securities, the most advantages thing to do is treat the account as a long term saving vessel with the tax advantages of both a Roth and traditional IRA rolled into one! Ta-da. Now, if you own a Private Equity firm and fill your HSA with shares of your fledgling company when it is valued at .0000001 cent per share you'll be on your way to prosperity!!
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Oct 26, 2015 06:50
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SedanChair posted:Can you stop dancing around all this and just come out and say "I want you to die! Die and lower my taxes." See above where I advocate for single payer.....
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Oct 26, 2015 07:46
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Magres posted:you can always trust redtext Apparently my conviction that people bear some responsibility for the actions of thier elected officials was not looked upon kindly by the goons in the EU thread.
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Oct 26, 2015 07:48
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KingFisher posted:See above where I advocate for single payer..... You didn't advocate for anything, your posts have been the definition of a privileged moron musing without taking a position. Keep it up and you can put on round glasses and work for the new york times.
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Oct 26, 2015 08:18
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