Skyrim Modding: Just Spent 10 Hours Modding, Time to Play

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Unexpected: Jan 5, 2010; You're gonna need
a bigger boat.

Bought all DLCs because I hate money. Ran LOOT and saw something like this in a few places:
"Contains 619 ITM records, 82 deleted references and 57 deleted navmeshes. Clean with TES5Edit."

Do I need to run TES5Edit or can I safely leave these alone?

Thanks.

# ? Oct 26, 2015 05:33

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# ? Jun 4, 2024 16:23

GunnerJ: Aug 1, 2005; Do you think this is funny?

Unexpected posted:

Bought all DLCs because I hate money. Ran LOOT and saw something like this in a few places:
"Contains 619 ITM records, 82 deleted references and 57 deleted navmeshes. Clean with TES5Edit."

Do I need to run TES5Edit or can I safely leave these alone?

Thanks.

Generally it's considered OK to clean the Bethesda ESMs. Not sure I'd say it's strictly necessary.

# ? Oct 26, 2015 05:57

Woolie Wool: Jun 2, 2006

Everyone should use Legendary Edition, having to support people who don't drives up plugin counts and creates a big hassle for everybody that does. Also Dragonborn is even better than the main game and you should play it. Dragonborn is so good I actually cleared every dungeon and quest in Solstheim (only took me 30 hours :shepface:

).

For those of you who :spergin:

over realistic weapon designs like me, Regent Armory has some beautiful historical arming swords, bastard swords, and longswords that even conform to Oakeshott's typology. There are a few in the Nordic tier so they don't become entirely obsolete at higher levels.

A little fun fact: The Alik'r curved sworeds are actually European. Near Eastern "scimitars" used by the Turks and Persians were much slimmer, and West Africans and early Arabs used straight swords.

Woolie Wool fucked around with this message at 07:02 on Oct 26, 2015

# ? Oct 26, 2015 06:00

AtillatheBum: Oct 6, 2010; Justice ain't gonna dispense itself.

Unexpected posted:

Bought all DLCs because I hate money. Ran LOOT and saw something like this in a few places:
"Contains 619 ITM records, 82 deleted references and 57 deleted navmeshes. Clean with TES5Edit."

Do I need to run TES5Edit or can I safely leave these alone?

Thanks.

I don't think you are supposed to clean skyrim.esm, but other than that go crazy. Some mods distinctly say not to clean them, but that is a case by case; ITM here means Identical to Master(the mods value for something is exactly the same as the base game, but since its part of a mod it is still considered a 'change') so you should be 100% safe to clean those.

# ? Oct 26, 2015 08:24

Lunchmeat Larry: Nov 3, 2012

Everyone should have Dawnguard because of the time they made it free on Steam for the weekend and it turns out if you played it once during that time you have Dawnguard forever. My girlfriend got the DLCs free because she played my Skyrim on Steam Family Share, liked it enough to buy the vanilla version and apparently Steam decided she should get to keep the DLCs from playing mine :shrug:

they�re just .esms, I guess.

# ? Oct 26, 2015 10:16

Kiggles: Dec 30, 2007

Iretep posted:

Anyone have a clue why my game stops handling scripts or something? I've noticed some quests refuse to continue until after ive quit and reloaded and once I reloaed a bunch of quests get updated. I've played skyrim in the past just fine so I'm confused whats causing this. I have SKSE and ENB installed too.

Carsius posted:

Hmm... I'm having the same problem, yet the script cleaner doesn't seem to see anything wrong. Perhaps I have to start over... again...

Try waiting 30 game days in a non-respawning cell, like a player home. Remember to dismissing followers and consider dropping your entire inventory into a container.

Do this before you do anything like removing mods, which usually causes irreversible problems down the line. Even if the mod in question is "safe" to remove, other mods may have applied scripts to things it added. Sometimes it's just a matter of getting the world cleaned up a little bit. Depending on what is causing you problems, it may just be something you need to do regularly. The only question is how frequently. I've run around for about 1 in-game month at low timescales (Dynamic timescale sliders set between 6 and 18), finished a ton of quests, dungeons, and did a bunch of no fast-travel all over the world map from like level 10-25. Save file is up to about 18MB now, so I'll be doing this today even though there hasn't been any particular problems. But for as much playtime as that covers, taking 12 minutes isn't a bad deal.

If this only clears things up for you for a single dungeon or two... particularly when the save cleaner isn't doing anything for you, it is probably time to scrap the save, ditching some sort of script intensive (particularly those cloak effect) mod(s) that could simply be bogging things down.

Additionally, try adding or editing Skyrim.ini

code:

[Papyrus]
fPostLoadUpdateTimeMS=500.0
bEnableLogging=0
bEnableTrace=0
fExtraTaskletBudgetMS=800
fPostLoadUpdateTimeMS=2000
bLoadDebugInformation=0
iMinMemoryPageSize=256
iMaxMemoryPageSize=512
iMaxAllocatedMemoryBytes=2457600

The last line is the what you're looking for. Default is something like 76800 (76KB), and I know the RCRN crew recommend cranking this thing all the way up to literal gigabytes. Supposedly they have tested the thing sufficiently to argue it has benefits beyond merely papyrus, but whatever. I figure 2.5 MB is complete and total overkill, but still sufficiently insignificant that it isn't going to cause CTD from memory limitations any more quickly. If you want to try larger values go ahead to see if it has any effect (try before the waiting mentioned above so you can at least verify it even matters). I used to use RCRN's recommended last time I played about a year ago. Didn't seem to hurt. Still, you have been warned.

EDIT: don't just copy and paste that whole block. It's posted in entirety so you know what you're looking for. Those values are not necessarily recommended.

Kiggles fucked around with this message at 15:34 on Oct 26, 2015

# ? Oct 26, 2015 13:40

Eric the Mauve: May 8, 2012; Making you happy for a buck since 199X

I have legendary edition but disabled Dawnguard because it is loving retarded.

# ? Oct 26, 2015 14:26

Agents are GO!: Dec 29, 2004

Crossbows, Dragonbone Weapons, and the Aetherium Crown are not retarded. ALl you need to do is get Timing is Everything and set the Dawnguard main quest to start at level 100.

# ? Oct 26, 2015 14:29

Raygereio: Nov 12, 2012

Kiggles posted:

Additionally, try adding or editing Skyrim.ini
The last line is the what you're looking for. Default is something like 76800 (76KB), and I know the RCRN crew recommend cranking this thing all the way up to literal gigabytes.

There's a lot of wrong information floating around about the various .ini settings. At some point some idiot who wrote one of those Skyrim tweak guides decided that iMaxAllocatedMemoryBytes controls how much RAM Skyrim can utilize. And people like the RCRN crew are apparently still parroting that nonsense, despite the documentation clearly stating what it does and even Bethesda devs having said that's wrong.

Fiddling with the various papyrus .ini settings can increase the script engine's performance if you have a lot of script-heavy mods running. But don't go overboard and immediately increase all settings to their max. Having set anything too high for your specific hardware & mod setup can cause problems. Read the documentation about what the settings do, use very small increases and test things thoroughly.

# ? Oct 26, 2015 14:38

Gyshall: Feb 24, 2009; Had a couple of drinks.
Saw a couple of things.

Yeah don't gently caress with Papyrus ini settings. I always follow - http://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/50244/ for my INI tweaking, dude has another guide for graphical fidelity as well.

# ? Oct 26, 2015 14:46

GunnerJ: Aug 1, 2005; Do you think this is funny?

Agents are GO! posted:

Crossbows, Dragonbone Weapons, and the Aetherium Crown are not retarded. ALl you need to do is get Timing is Everything and set the Dawnguard main quest to start at level 100.

Is Dawnguard that bad?

# ? Oct 26, 2015 14:47

Woolie Wool: Jun 2, 2006

No, Eric the Mauve is just a babby.

# ? Oct 26, 2015 14:49

GunnerJ: Aug 1, 2005; Do you think this is funny?

I can never get Papyrus logging to work if I run the game through MO, even if the setting to log the output is on. Does anyone else have this problem?

# ? Oct 26, 2015 14:49

Kiggles: Dec 30, 2007

^^ check there isn't another [Papyrus] setting in skyrim.ini. If it is there, and set to "0" then that is the setting that will be used.

Additionally, make sure you are editting the skyrim.ini Mod Organizer is using ...\Mod Organizer\Profiles\_your profile\. Lastly, the logs will be placed in My Documents\My Games\Skyrim\logs\

Raygereio posted:

There's a lot of wrong information floating around about the various .ini settings. At some point some idiot who wrote one of those Skyrim tweak guides decided that iMaxAllocatedMemoryBytes controls how much RAM Skyrim can utilize. And people like the RCRN crew are apparently still parroting that nonsense, despite the documentation clearly stating what it does and even Bethesda devs having said that's wrong.

Fiddling with the various papyrus .ini settings can increase the script engine's performance if you have a lot of script-heavy mods running. But don't go overboard and immediately increase all settings to their max. Having set anything too high for your specific hardware & mod setup can cause problems. Read the documentation about what the settings do, use very small increases and test things thoroughly.

I agree with you, which is why I'm still recommending a 'modest' increase of only a meg or two (which is still silly considering the script allocation). But this is something addressed by RCNR contributors.

They are aware this is what it is supposed to do. They know what has been said about it, but in their testing, it supposedly reduces stuttering. I can't really say one way or the other in my experience, but it IS a point they explicitly acknowledge. It is SUPPOSED to work the way the documentation describes, but the RCRN folks insist that isn't how it actually works in practice.

It may be something else going on under the hood, where it DOES dictate the maximum script allocation, but if all else with memory management in engine is dynamic, then scripts only requiring a few hundred kilobytes could indirectly result in the variable sort of 'forcing' a larger memory allocation for the entire engine. So yeah, setting the variable to 3.5gigabytes is not in the least bit necessary. On the other hand, it if technically forces the game to preemptively allocate the some 3.5gb hard limit, then yeah, that could reduce stutters. I have no idea what negative consequences could arise from such a thing (that wouldn't happen otherwise), so use caution, but in the case of mods like Legacy of the Dragonborn that add some 7000 scripts (compared to vanilla 30K), increasing this variable at least a little is probably recommended. How much? :shrug:

2.5mb works for me, and in this context, that is still crazy overkill.

vvv Right, and I am not disputing any of that. The point for reference was that if someone is having quests that will not complete/initiate, except on save/reloads, and save cleaning reports no lost scripts, then it may simply be a script allocation problem. Increasing the value would be recommended, and as further point of reference, increasing the value to completely obscene values has little to no perceptible impact on anything, so it can (probably) be safely doubled, tripled, or more. I'm not telling anyone to actually set the thing to multiple gigabytes. It's just context. The alternative is disabling mods, which simply isn't an option with Skyrim. Do that and you might as well kiss your save goodbye.

Kiggles fucked around with this message at 15:39 on Oct 26, 2015

# ? Oct 26, 2015 14:53

Raygereio: Nov 12, 2012

Kiggles posted:

They are aware this is what it is supposed to do. They know what has been said about it, but in their testing, it supposedly reduces stuttering. I can't really say one way or the other in my experience, but it IS a point they explicitly acknowledge. It is SUPPOSED to work the way the documentation describes, but the RCRN folks insist that isn't how it actually works in practice.

Some while ago someone uploaded an executable to the Nexus and claimed that would boost Skyrim's performance by "delete stuff and make changes to the registry to make computer beter". Some people took the executable apart and found that nothing it did would boost Skyrim's performance and everything it did do would screw up your system. Despite that, a depressingly large number of people downloaded that executable, ran it and reported happily that they really felt like Skyrim ran more smoothly, but that their Windows started behaving funny.
What I'm saying here is that people are often idiots and the placebo effect is a real thing.

Also a lot of modders have the most fragile of egos and need to have that ego stroked constantly. The RCNR guys claimed that iMaxAllocatedMemoryBytes controls Skyrim's RAM usage and that they saw a performance boost when increasing to 4GB and an bigger boost when setting it to 8GB.
Bethesda devs have clearly stated that that value only relates to the scripting engine, that it's a 32-bit integer (max value 2147483647, or 2GB) and that you should never set it to max. When this was pointed out to the RCNR back when they first made their claims, they basically went "Nuhu! We know the engine better then Bethesda! No, we're not going to show you how we tested this, just trust our genius."
When someone makes a grandiose claim and provides nothing back that claim up. Changes are pretty good he's full of poo poo.

Raygereio fucked around with this message at 15:38 on Oct 26, 2015

# ? Oct 26, 2015 15:34

Carsius: May 7, 2013

Well, starting a new game ended up getting script lag pretty early on, so I still have the problem. Asking on the LotD comments noted that though it uses a lot of scripts, almost none of them run constantly, and the ones that do only trigger infrequently.
Removing/re-adding the mod did nothing to help.

# ? Oct 26, 2015 16:02

FadedReality: Sep 5, 2007; Okurrrr?

Check Helgen Reborn and 3DNPC. Those are both pretty script heavy and Helgen Reborn fires off a bunch of them as soon as you start the game.

# ? Oct 26, 2015 16:17

Carsius: May 7, 2013

Slowly turning mods off and then making a new save + cleaning it didn't help. Even when all of the mods which used 100+ scripts were gone.

Perhaps my problem is elsewhere?

# ? Oct 26, 2015 16:58

Kiggles: Dec 30, 2007

Carsius posted:

Slowly turning mods off and then making a new save + cleaning it didn't help. Even when all of the mods which used 100+ scripts were gone.

Perhaps my problem is elsewhere?

Delete your saves, and Skyrim/Skyrimpref.ini, including those in your Mod Organizer\Profiles section. Then load vanilla Skyrim (through Steam) to refresh default settings. Finally, load up Mod Organizer and let it grab the fresh inis. Additionally, make sure your Mod Organizer\overwrite directory is clean.

See if you get the same problems when loading vanilla (though MO). If it doesn't help, you'll want to do a clean install. You can avoid the huge downloads by just deleting everything in your Skyrim root, and data folder OTHER THAN the .bsa files. Kill the esm files and folders in your Skyrim\Data directory as well.

# ? Oct 26, 2015 17:03

Carsius: May 7, 2013

Well, Vanilla (through Mod Org) doesn't seem to be experiencing any script lag (tested via the BFB word wall.)

I guess I get to repeatedly make new saves and test out mods on the word wall to see if that identifies it.

Quick Edit:
Now I can't even start a new game on the modded side even though I was able to, even after I followed your directions. Hitting "New" just causes "shout" and takes the menu options away; the background animation and music still plays, but nothing happens.

# ? Oct 26, 2015 18:59

Mr.Grit: Jul 16, 2006

Carsius posted:

Well, Vanilla (through Mod Org) doesn't seem to be experiencing any script lag (tested via the BFB word wall.)

I guess I get to repeatedly make new saves and test out mods on the word wall to see if that identifies it.

Quick Edit:
Now I can't even start a new game on the modded side even though I was able to, even after I followed your directions. Hitting "New" just causes "shout" and takes the menu options away; the background animation and music still plays, but nothing happens.

Go to the game in steam, right click > properties > local files... verify integrity of game cache.

# ? Oct 26, 2015 19:51

Nerd Of Prey: Aug 10, 2002

Nevets posted:

I've been running through the STEP wiki, and supposedly ENBoost allows skyrim to use system memory after it runs out of vram:

quote:
VideoMemorySizeMb

This sets the total memory that will be used for the ENBoost dynamic memory allocation. All available VRAM, except for the amount set with ReservedMemorySizeMb, will be used first, and if VideoMemorySizeMb is set to a value higher than total VRAM of the user's videocard, then ENBoost will use system RAM, if necessary, by running instances of enbhost.exe. 32-bit systems, and 64-bit systems with <8 GB of system RAM, should set this equal to (Dedicated Video Memory + System RAM) − 2048. 64-bit systems with ≥8 GB of system RAM should set this equal to (Total Available Graphics Memory − [170 (for Win7) or 350 (for Win8+)]). When calculating the value, it is not necessary to subtract the value of ReservedMemorySizeMb, because ENBoost already takes it into consideration. If AutodetectVideoMemorySize is enabled below, this parameter is ignored. All values are in megabytes.

VideoMemorySizeMb=(1024, 2048, 4096...)

This is the best explanation of these settings that I've seen. I had been using auto detect, but I turned that off and cranked up my VideoMemorySizeMb to twice my actual video memory, and my framerate seems more stable now. My game had previously leaned way too hard on my meager video memory and mostly ignored my system RAM, and that was always a point of frustration. It's nice to finally know how to correct that. I still need to upgrade my computer at some point, but at least now the game is properly using what I've got.

I have been kind of taking a break from Skyrim for a couple of weeks, but I had to try this out quickly before the thread moved too far and I forgot about it.

# ? Oct 26, 2015 20:06

Chaltab: Feb 16, 2011; So shocked someone got me an avatar!

Carsius posted:

Quick Edit:
Now I can't even start a new game on the modded side even though I was able to, even after I followed your directions. Hitting "New" just causes "shout" and takes the menu options away; the background animation and music still plays, but nothing happens.

I had that problem before and it was 'Kill Essential Characters' or something like that causing it. Do you have that mod on?

GunnerJ posted:

Is Dawnguard that bad?

The quest itself is fine, but between it starting and you completing it, there will be random vampire attacks in cities that can be really damned annoying.

Chaltab fucked around with this message at 20:26 on Oct 26, 2015

# ? Oct 26, 2015 20:23

CascadeBeta: Feb 14, 2009; by Cyrano4747

So as someone who wants to try and get through this game with a Valkyrie type character, sword and board with maybe a bit of magic tossed in, what are the good combat mods that people typically go to? I didn't see any in the OP. I'll probably pair it with some realistic needs and disease and frostfall and such with no fast travel as well. I remember enjoying Oblivion way more when I did that.

# ? Oct 26, 2015 20:30

Carsius: May 7, 2013

Chaltab posted:

I had that problem before and it was 'Kill Essential Characters' or something like that causing it. Do you have that mod on?

The quest itself is fine, but between it starting and you completing it, there will be random vampire attacks in cities that can be really damned annoying.

I finally found the culprit by using the BFB word wall to test script speed. It was High King of Skyrim, which was also causing the "new file break," since it does have Kill Essential Characters bundled in.

Shame, I really liked the idea of the mod (though its implementation was poor.)

# ? Oct 26, 2015 20:48

Woolie Wool: Jun 2, 2006

Has anyone come up with a way to prune duplicate weapons and other items? I'd really like to be able to run several weapon mods concurrently without having to worry about 5 different types of "Steel Longsword" with different models.

Chaltab posted:

I had that problem before and it was 'Kill Essential Characters' or something like that causing it. Do you have that mod on?

The quest itself is fine, but between it starting and you completing it, there will be random vampire attacks in cities that can be really damned annoying.

http://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/38151/
Timing is Everything can disable vampire attacks even if you don't change the level Dawnguard starts at.

http://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/35286/
And a mod that makes dragons' shouts voiced. Well, partially voiced. Alduin at least only uses the last two words of each shout (...RO DAH! ...TOOR SHUL!). But it's at least better than mindless roaring.

(and with that, I wonder: why do dragons have a dragon language term for an English metaphor for fire that references an Italian book about the Christian hell? Wouldn't it make more sense for "toor" to mean "burn"?)

Woolie Wool fucked around with this message at 23:54 on Oct 26, 2015

# ? Oct 26, 2015 23:30

Ynglaur: Oct 9, 2013; The Malta Conference, anyone?

Woolie Wool posted:

Has anyone come up with a way to prune duplicate weapons and other items? I'd really like to be able to run several weapon mods concurrently without having to worry about 5 different types of "Steel Longsword" with different models.

Meanwhile, that is exactly the sort of thing that I want.

# ? Oct 27, 2015 05:41

Comstar: Apr 20, 2007; Are you happy now?

After trying and failing to get the uncapper working for SPERG, random crashes when using flame spells, random crashes outside Whiterun and missing the Other Days start that requires the expansions...I bought the expansions.

edit- I ended up removing all mods via the Mod Organizer, and started downloading everything and installing based on this list. Time to spend 10 hours playing Skyrim Mod Organizer.

Comstar fucked around with this message at 10:55 on Oct 27, 2015

# ? Oct 27, 2015 07:19

Chaltab: Feb 16, 2011; So shocked someone got me an avatar!

Carsius posted:

Shame, I really liked the idea of the mod (though its implementation was poor.)

You can still play it, just don't enable that mod until you've created your character.

# ? Oct 27, 2015 08:40

Comstar: Apr 20, 2007; Are you happy now?

I just spent 4 hours downloading all the mods...and discovered to my horror that Mod Organizer was NOT detecting the DLC's, and most of the mods wouldn't work. Reinstalling it worked...but none of downloaded mods show up. I have failed playing the game of Skyrim modding. I have to start all over again.

# ? Oct 27, 2015 13:16

GunnerJ: Aug 1, 2005; Do you think this is funny?

Comstar posted:

I just spent 4 hours downloading all the mods...and discovered to my horror that Mod Organizer was NOT detecting the DLC's, and most of the mods wouldn't work. Reinstalling it worked...but none of downloaded mods show up. I have failed playing the game of Skyrim modding. I have to start all over again.

Why do you think that it is not detecting the DLCs? I ask because it displays files in skyrim/data differently from other mods.

# ? Oct 27, 2015 13:22

Arc Hammer: Mar 4, 2013; Got any deathsticks?

I recently found the modder Andragorn, and drat are his weapon mods pretty. His axes especially look great.
http://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/36835/

Also, does anyone have a link to Nuska's skin mod? I find it works well with that Real Skin for Men mod, but it's not available on Nexus.

Arc Hammer fucked around with this message at 16:11 on Oct 27, 2015

# ? Oct 27, 2015 14:39

Chaltab: Feb 16, 2011; So shocked someone got me an avatar!

Arcsquad12 posted:

Also, does anyone have a link to Nuska's skin mod? I find it works well with that Real Skin for Men mod, but it's not available on Nexus.

Apparently he took it down to deal with some personal stuff, though that was 2.5 years ago so... he may have quit altogether.

There are people offering to share it in this thread, of course it's also two and a half years old.

# ? Oct 27, 2015 18:08

Carsius: May 7, 2013

Chaltab posted:

You can still play it, just don't enable that mod until you've created your character.

Enabling it at all causes the severe script lag.

# ? Oct 27, 2015 18:52

meefistopheles: Nov 11, 2013

So I have reinstalled Skyrim, and set up the STEP core. I've not played too far past Helgen, but it seems to be pretty stable. However, I am having serious problems trying to add Legacy of the Dragonborn to my setup. There is apparently a Legacy-specific opening included in Live Another Life, but loading STEP+Legacy+Live Another Life results in infinite (or at least >15 minute) loading screens. Anybody know which of the STEP mods Legacy might be conflicting with? I've tried STEP+Live Another Life and that seems to be fine, and Legacy works fine (albeit with long initial load times) on an otherwise vanilla MO profile.

# ? Oct 27, 2015 20:01

Arc Hammer: Mar 4, 2013; Got any deathsticks?

I'm having a spot of trouble with the CNHF body mod. I want the better looking armors, but downloading the armor conversions from the page and installing them does nothing ingame. Is this a Mod Organizer issue?

EDIT, I went looking through the armors in Nifskope and it looks like the mod doesn't change poo poo.

Arc Hammer fucked around with this message at 20:33 on Oct 27, 2015

# ? Oct 27, 2015 20:06

Unexpected: Jan 5, 2010; You're gonna need
a bigger boat.

Question about the "Realistic Needs & Diseases" mod. Is it normal that not even 10 "dishes" are going to change my hunger level from "very hungry" to something better? I bought all food there was to buy at the inn in Riverwood and I'm still "very hungry"...

Unexpected fucked around with this message at 01:47 on Oct 28, 2015

# ? Oct 28, 2015 01:08

Agents are GO!: Dec 29, 2004

Did you actually eat it?

Also RND is super tedious, I recommend iNeed.

# ? Oct 28, 2015 05:26

Psion: Dec 13, 2002; eVeN I KnOw wHaT CoRnEr gAs iS

Arcsquad12 posted:

I'm having a spot of trouble with the CNHF body mod. I want the better looking armors, but downloading the armor conversions from the page and installing them does nothing ingame. Is this a Mod Organizer issue?

EDIT, I went looking through the armors in Nifskope and it looks like the mod doesn't change poo poo.

correct me if I'm wrong but didn't they just swap male for female armors? so everyone wears the male version of armor?

I seem to remember this. It'd explain identical nifs, but :confused:

# ? Oct 28, 2015 05:49

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# ? Jun 4, 2024 16:23

Everything Burrito: Jun 2, 2011; I Failed At Anime 2022

Just spent some time in Morthal with this active and it was pretty awesome. Made the swamp a super creepy place that's actually easy to get turned around in. At night it was even better -- I camped in a hurry and did NOT want to go stumbling around.

# ? Oct 28, 2015 05:58

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