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spectralent posted:I mean, if you acknowledge that the rules are ambiguous and could be worded more clearly, that basically boils down to the entire point anyone's making. Your interpretation's reasonable, but there's two outcomes from several lines of logic that also seem reasonable. I would further assert that this could be resolved with tighter rules writing that sacrificed natural language, and would also vastly abbreviate the charm section in a book that's almost 700 pages long and is destined for print. A little while ago Ferrinus was saying he didn't actually know how Solar Counterattack worked, and that's the sentiment I was responding to.
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Oct 27, 2015 03:24
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Ferrinus posted:Oh, so? But where does it say that you can wait until after you've seen the enemy's attack roll to use Seven Shadow Evasion? You've had to declare it beforehand in every heretofore edition of the game. Our group has been operating under the assumption that since SSE is a reflexive charm you can declare it at any stage, but if you can't that's actually useful information. At the very least though I'd back that sentiment up with... basically what you said about HSP.
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Oct 27, 2015 03:28
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Thug Lessons posted:Our group has been operating under the assumption that since SSE is a reflexive charm you can declare it at any stage, but if you can't that's actually useful information. At the very least though I'd back that sentiment up with... basically what you said about HSP. I mean, I couldn't rightly tell you either. The Dodge Excellency and Reed In the Wind are also Reflexive, but I'm pretty sure using them is a blind bet - you can't just exactly buy down your opponent's attack after you've seen it. (I'm trying to find the exact language that says so - I remember it being in the leak, but it's not jumping out at me in the Charms chapter.) My main reason to assume that SSE works the same way is exactly as I said: that's how it always worked, and unless the writers specifically called it out as working differently in this edition it's safest to assume that they just forgot to specify because they're so used to having to declare SSE before you've seen the flop being a universal constant.
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Oct 27, 2015 03:34
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No, I think you're right now. The the description of what a reflexive charm is make it pretty clear, and the idea that you could just activate it whenever was just some nonsense I got into my head. I may even have been wrong that my group has been operating that way and confusing SSE with the actual "unhitting" charm that Sidereals get.
Thug Lessons fucked around with this message at 03:43 on Oct 27, 2015 |
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Oct 27, 2015 03:39
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Ah, here it is:quote:Players (including the Storyteller) must openly declare Conceivably this does allow back-and-forth bidding wars between attacker and defender as each party starts tagging on bigger charms and beefier excellencies in response to the other, but you definitely can't mess with already-rolled dice unless your charm says it can.
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Oct 27, 2015 03:44
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Ferrinus posted:Ah, here it is: Our group operated on a bidding-war method for months until we realized it was stupid and wrong because the rules never told us otherwise.
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Oct 27, 2015 03:45
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What happens if you use Solar Counterattack on a nemissary or something? Does it roll damage even if you kill it with the counterattack? After all, it's already dead. 
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Oct 27, 2015 03:46
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Is there any reason for the peripheral pool formula to be ([Essence x 7] + 26) other than "they literally just copied the numbers from 2e with maxed Virtues/Willpower and then never bothered to look at it again"?
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Oct 27, 2015 07:27
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are there some rules for making evocations that I missed, or have they just gone "hey here are some examples and vague guidelines, go nuts!"?
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Oct 27, 2015 07:35
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thatbastardken posted:are there some rules for making evocations that I missed, or have they just gone "hey here are some examples and vague guidelines, go nuts!"? The artifact book is coming out next and should have examples and guidelines. I wouldn't expect it in the next 6 months though.
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Oct 27, 2015 08:08
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MiltonSlavemasta posted:I wouldn't expect it in the next 6 months though. They haven't even written it yet, let alone done layout. Better give it at least a year.
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Oct 27, 2015 09:32
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thatbastardken posted:are there some rules for making evocations that I missed, or have they just gone "hey here are some examples and vague guidelines, go nuts!"? The Lone Badger posted:They haven't even written it yet, let alone done layout. Better give it at least a year.
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Oct 27, 2015 09:37
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I have to think the new books are going to come out at a comparatively rapid pace compared to the corebook. I mean, leaving Evocations aside there's almost no difference between this release and the leak that's been out for a year now so I assume they've been working on something instead of just huffing paint all day.
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Oct 27, 2015 09:45
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Thug Lessons posted:I have to think the new books are going to come out at a comparatively rapid pace compared to the corebook. I mean, leaving Evocations aside there's almost no difference between this release and the leak that's been out for a year now so I assume they've been working on something instead of just huffing paint all day.  a rare look into onyx path publishing's "exalted" gameline work space
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Oct 27, 2015 09:48
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Nessus posted:I have heard that part of why this poo poo has taken so long is that they were doing a lot of work on Big Book O' Big Swords, Dragonblooded, and Some Other drat Thing in parallel, which is interesting, if true. At least according to the most recent Monday Meeting post, Dragonblooded, The Realm, and Arms of the Chosen are all in their second draft after redlines, so should be hitting layout soon. Theoretically, the layout should be templated now and easy to drag and drop the text into, but that assumes a level of layout competence that hasn't been in evidence so far. e: Also, I've put together a draft of a crafting worksheet: https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B4KAK_EamMB9RGEySmp0Rzh1NmM/view?usp=sharing Reckon it's helpful? Is it missing anything? I was thinking about putting in space for people to note down where their charms hook in, but that could be a bit too complex. Flavivirus fucked around with this message at 12:07 on Oct 27, 2015 |
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Oct 27, 2015 09:53
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Thug Lessons posted:I have to think the new books are going to come out at a comparatively rapid pace compared to the corebook. I mean, leaving Evocations aside there's almost no difference between this release and the leak that's been out for a year now so I assume they've been working on something instead of just huffing paint all day. I'm inclined to disagree. Then again, I thought 3e was never actually going to come out, and would be just as bad as 2e, so
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Oct 27, 2015 15:49
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Roadie posted:Is there any reason for the peripheral pool formula to be ([Essence x 7] + 26) other than "they literally just copied the numbers from 2e with maxed Virtues/Willpower and then never bothered to look at it again"? That is 100% what they did.
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Oct 27, 2015 15:53
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fool_of_sound posted:I'm inclined to disagree. Then again, I thought 3e was never actually going to come out, and would be just as bad as 2e, so Even if it takes forever to come out, I hold out hope that it will at least be leaked online in a timely manner.
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Oct 27, 2015 16:16
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Thinking about Not-Exalted, I keep wondering if people would prefer the idea of a straight mechanical clone, or something rendered a bit more sane (no separate Sail/Ride, a generic Performance + Linguistics = Expression skill, not having a bunch of stuff in Larceny be gambling-specific, etc). Your thoughts? (This comes with no promises of anything, just me futzing around with ideas.)
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Oct 27, 2015 18:29
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Roadie posted:Thinking about Not-Exalted, I keep wondering if people would prefer the idea of a straight mechanical clone, or something rendered a bit more sane (no separate Sail/Ride, a generic Performance + Linguistics = Expression skill, not having a bunch of stuff in Larceny be gambling-specific, etc). I've considered this also but I'm not familiar enough with game systems in general to do anything with it. There are things I like about this system, but also a lot of bloat and seemingly misplaced charms. (The Socialize persona tree seems like it should belong in Performance: Acting, for instance, thus giving that section more than one single charm.) Have also heard talk of replacing Craft with a Workings system. re: Rules debates: If it can be argued over for multiple pages, it needs clarification. Desperately.
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Oct 27, 2015 18:43
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The issue is that Exalted attracts numerous groups of people due to being such a behemoth. People who enjoy incredibly elaborate, crunchy rules interactions might appreciate you trimming bloat, but others might get grouchy because they're actually just subscribed to the more-is-more philosophy, and trimming down Charm bloat is directly attacking what makes Exalted Exalted to them. Every weird little mechanical atavism is gonna have someone willing to die for its honor. Restructuring or altering the fluff would get even more of a division - I'm sure everybody in here has at least one change they'd like to see in their ideal version of Exalted, and that a lot of those changes are mutually exclusive. Basically, if you're going to make anything as a branch of Exalted, say "gently caress it" and do whatever you think is the best way to fix it, because God knows you're going to piss somebody off anyway.
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Oct 27, 2015 20:49
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And then format it like a god drat professional.
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Oct 27, 2015 20:54
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Chernobyl Peace Prize posted:And then format it like a god drat professional. Seconding.
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Oct 27, 2015 21:06
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Daeren posted:The issue is that Exalted attracts numerous groups of people due to being such a behemoth. People who enjoy incredibly elaborate, crunchy rules interactions might appreciate you trimming bloat, but others might get grouchy because they're actually just subscribed to the more-is-more philosophy, and trimming down Charm bloat is directly attacking what makes Exalted Exalted to them. I would prefer more mechanical rigor in terms of charm construction - I have no issues with the number of them, I just want everything defined in a very straightforward way,. I want the huge tracts of crunch, it's the whole point.
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Oct 27, 2015 21:06
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Daeren posted:The issue is that Exalted attracts numerous groups of people due to being such a behemoth. People who enjoy incredibly elaborate, crunchy rules interactions might appreciate you trimming bloat, but others might get grouchy because they're actually just subscribed to the more-is-more philosophy, and trimming down Charm bloat is directly attacking what makes Exalted Exalted to them. Every weird little mechanical atavism is gonna have someone willing to die for its honor. Restructuring or altering the fluff would get even more of a division - I'm sure everybody in here has at least one change they'd like to see in their ideal version of Exalted, and that a lot of those changes are mutually exclusive. I think you'll find that by removing bloat, redundancies, nonsensical legacy mechanics and outright poor design you'll end up attracting more people than you lose because they're hardcore Agile Dragonfly Blade fans. The bigger problem is that a lot of common-sense ideas of how to fix the game are bad, like the suggestions to combine Ride and Sail even though they have almost nothing in common mechanically, and actually finding a fix it is a lot harder.
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Oct 27, 2015 21:15
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Combining Ride and Sail as Abilities is a good idea, even if a few Charms which are currently under Ride end up going under Survival or War or whatever instead.
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Oct 27, 2015 21:17
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"You can't combine these two things" is usually because the charmset bizarrely barely involves some random other thing, though, which is something of an issue for ride, sail, lore, and a bit of occult, and probably a few others.
spectralent fucked around with this message at 23:00 on Oct 27, 2015 |
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Oct 27, 2015 21:19
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Ferrinus posted:Combining Ride and Sail as Abilities is a good idea, even if a few Charms which are currently under Ride end up going under Survival or War or whatever instead. If you look at the charms under Ride they tend to fall under two categories. a) Charms that duplicate the effects of other charms, mostly from Athletics, but only work on a horse. b) Charms that focus on getting your animal to fight, which complement the similar charms in Survival. Moving the first category to Sail doesn't solve the problem. I'm not even sure how it would work - like would you have a section that's "Ride" and has all the totally-not-Athletics charms and a sections that's "Sail" which interacts with the sailing system? If anything is this is actually a worse a system than what we have now. I could see a workable system where Ride and Sail are combined but that would involve re-writing both trees into something completely different from either of them, but I think it's a lot easier to just gut Ride, move what's useful to Survival, and have the other charm trees like Athletics pick up the slack.
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Oct 27, 2015 21:27
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Thug Lessons posted:I think you'll find that by removing bloat, redundancies, nonsensical legacy mechanics and outright poor design you'll end up attracting more people than you lose because they're hardcore Agile Dragonfly Blade fans. Oh, I agree with you completely. Hell, if I could be assed, ~my dream Exalted~ is one that discards most of the agonized attempts to be a tabletop version of some Magic the Gathering/Yomi frankenstein and tries to make a new design based on actually capturing the themes the game says it's trying to go for, thus immediately pissing off basically everybody.
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Oct 27, 2015 21:29
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Thug Lessons posted:If you look at the charms under Ride they tend to fall under two categories. A hypothetical "Travel" skill would have charms that help you cross big distances on land or see or outmanuever other people doing the same, while actually weaponizing animals for use in personal combat might be Survival or War or something.
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Oct 27, 2015 21:30
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Ferrinus posted:A hypothetical "Travel" skill would have charms that help you cross big distances on land or see or outmanuever other people doing the same, while actually weaponizing animals for use in personal combat might be Survival or War or something. This would be cool. It also doesn't have much at all in common with Ride because Ride is about rushing (Athletics), disengaging (Dodge), tests of speed and races (Athletics), increased combat movement (Athletics), being able to fly (Athletics), and fighting beasts (Survival). What you actually want is to generalize Sail into something that works everywhere, not to combine Ride and Sail.
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Oct 27, 2015 21:36
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Thug Lessons posted:This would be cool. It also doesn't have much at all in common with Ride because Ride is about rushing (Athletics), disengaging (Dodge), tests of speed and races (Athletics), increased combat movement (Athletics), being able to fly (Athletics), and fighting beasts (Survival). What you actually want is to generalize Sail into something that works everywhere, not to combine Ride and Sail. When I talk about what skills I combine I mean it in terms of like, if I was laying out the skill list because I was designing an edition of Exalted, that's what I'd do. If I wanted to keep the existing Charm trees but just ease skill costs I'd just... give people more skill dots or make skills cheaper or something, because actually telling people to remember which charms are now under which skills is probably more trouble than it's worth.
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Oct 27, 2015 21:42
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Thug Lessons posted:This would be cool. It also doesn't have much at all in common with Ride because Ride is about rushing (Athletics), disengaging (Dodge), tests of speed and races (Athletics), increased combat movement (Athletics), being able to fly (Athletics), and fighting beasts (Survival). What you actually want is to generalize Sail into something that works everywhere, not to combine Ride and Sail. EDIT: Title it "But On A Horse"
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Oct 27, 2015 21:44
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Ferrinus posted:When I talk about what skills I combine I mean it in terms of like, if I was laying out the skill list because I was designing an edition of Exalted, that's what I'd do. I'm not sure what it means to combine Ride and Sail if you're ignoring the way Ride and Sail work mechanically. But okay. I assume it's something like "If I was redesigning Exalted I would have a generic Travel ability with a lot of charms related to riding because there used to be a Ride ability before I combined it", but I would just start fresh and probably have very few "this only works on a horse" Travel charms, in which case I'm more just deleting the Ride ability entirely rather than rolling it in with Sail. quote:If I wanted to keep the existing Charm trees but just ease skill costs I'd just... give people more skill dots or make skills cheaper or something, because actually telling people to remember which charms are now under which skills is probably more trouble than it's worth. Yeah of course, we all know that combining abilities and attributes comes hand-in-hand with reducing the dots you get.
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Oct 27, 2015 21:54
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Zereth posted:I propose replacing the entire ride tree with a single charm which lets you use the relevant athletics/dodge/etc charms and have them apply to your mount as well. That's actually not a terrible idea.
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Oct 27, 2015 21:58
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Thug Lessons posted:I'm not sure what it means to combine Ride and Sail if you're ignoring the way Ride and Sail work mechanically. The base skill has its own mechanics and implementation besides just the
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Oct 27, 2015 21:58
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Thug Lessons posted:That's actually not a terrible idea.
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Oct 27, 2015 22:09
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RPZip posted:The base skill has its own mechanics and implementation besides just the As far as Ride goes, the skill portion boils down to a single sentence: "The Ride Ability replaces Athletics and Dodge for any movement rolls made while mounted." The entire section for riding takes up less than a page.
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Oct 27, 2015 22:12
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Thug Lessons posted:As far as Ride goes, the skill portion boils down to a single sentence: "The Ride Ability replaces Athletics and Dodge for any movement rolls made while mounted." The entire section for riding takes up less than a page. Which is exactly why it should be combined with another skill...?
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Oct 27, 2015 22:25
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Chernobyl Peace Prize posted:And then format it like a god drat professional. Here's a test example with some simple use of LaTeX.    This also includes automatic indexing, table of contents, and PDF bookmark generation, which took me maybe half an hour at most to fiddle with and get set up like I wanted.  Edit: Also, \nopagebreak in the statblock definitions to keep them from sitting by themselves at the bottom of pages with the text on the next page.
Roadie fucked around with this message at 01:20 on Oct 28, 2015 |
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Oct 28, 2015 01:14
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