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I'm going to print out everything Klocto posts and tape it to my writing wall.
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Oct 25, 2015 20:02
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Nice post bro
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Oct 25, 2015 20:15
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being serious, that's a sweet post doc. I like the 1/2/3d framing - I'll be using it when i put together characters from now on.
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Oct 26, 2015 06:45
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can someone direct me to somewhere I can ask for critique
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Oct 26, 2015 13:59
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Varicelli posted:can someone direct me to somewhere I can ask for critique You've got the Farm megathread here for short pieces, otherwise, make a new thread with a link to a shared Google doc of your work. Use a Google doc link so you can revoke access when/if needed. If you post your work into a thread, you might not get around to moving it before your thread is archived. Also, participate in Thunderdome.
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Oct 26, 2015 14:12
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RedTonic posted:You've got the Farm megathread here for short pieces, otherwise, make a new thread with a link to a shared Google doc of your work. Use a Google doc link so you can revoke access when/if needed. If you post your work into a thread, you might not get around to moving it before your thread is archived. Are there other forums that are good for this? My story is 2500 words and it is very amateur so it doesn't look like it fits within the constraints of Farm and I don't really feel like it's deserving of its own thread. Thanks for the reply.
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Oct 26, 2015 14:32
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Is zoetrope still a thing? Used to be a great little site but when I go there now it seems to be a film-making collab hub. It used to be a place to post short stories, but you could only post one of your own after posting a review of two others, so you were almost guaranteed feedback.
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Oct 26, 2015 14:43
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Varicelli posted:Are there other forums that are good for this? My story is 2500 words and it is very amateur so it doesn't look like it fits within the constraints of Farm and I don't really feel like it's deserving of its own thread. The problem with a lot of writing forums is that people are more interested in getting critiques than giving them, which is totally understandable. There are online workshops (Critters springs to mind) where you are guaranteed feedback, but also have to crit a certain amount of other peoples' writing first. I'm not sure how much utility you'd get out of it unless you plan to keep writing more stuff, though. Honestly, you can totally make your own thread here. I wish more people did, but I understand why people don't - most story threads are lucky to get one or two replies. But hell, if you do post a thread, I'll crit it for you, at least.
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Oct 26, 2015 17:25
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https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B_P_OHW_YonKR3Nwd3JjRXFpWHM/view would appreciate any comments  first writing I've ever really done
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Oct 26, 2015 19:59
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Varicelli posted:https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B_P_OHW_YonKR3Nwd3JjRXFpWHM/view you have lots of excellent novelistic style, but basically this is people musing and walking and remembering, interspersed by horrible purple piffle. Last line is great though. Rx thunderdome 1/wk, p.r. 5 wks
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Oct 26, 2015 21:47
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Varicelli posted:https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B_P_OHW_YonKR3Nwd3JjRXFpWHM/view Minor thing: cut your adverbs out as much as you can: aim for zero. Adverbs are a way to 'tell' the reader things you're not confident you've expressed without them, which is why we all do it too much. Random example: quote:Yet, Janos was remarkably taller, and seemed generally fitter. 'Remarkably' doesn't do anything except point a big arrow saying 'LOOK AT THIS TALLNESS'. Sentences like this one just kinda tell us stuff, whereas if he, to rewrite horribly, were instead to 'loom over' David you tell us he's taller without literally spelling it out (also looming carries connotations of power/dominance/threat that can be used to set the dynamic of their relationship if you want to send it that way). Also, yes, Thunderdome.
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Oct 26, 2015 22:00
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Varicelli posted:https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B_P_OHW_YonKR3Nwd3JjRXFpWHM/view rewrite every sentence that includes the word "had" to not include said word. EDIT: to explain, when you say "X had [verb] Y" you pull the reader out of showing what's happening now to tell them what happened before. Eliminate the "had..." and find a way to pull that information into actions and events now. EDIT 2: also eliminate things like "the train was moving" - there's no need for a "to be" verb there. "the train moved" changes the sentence from a description of state (a snapshot) to an action. It "moves" the story along rather than freezing it in place. Fate Accomplice fucked around with this message at 23:30 on Oct 26, 2015 |
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Oct 26, 2015 23:01
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Malloreon posted:rewrite every sentence that includes the word "had" to not include said word. James, while John
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Oct 26, 2015 23:05
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Thanks guys. I definitely know I have a lyricisim (not in a good way) and awkwardness to my writing. Obviously I also struggled a little bit with structure, particularly tense, dialogue structure, over-description, and wrangling the different perspectives and voices. This story is meant to be a vignette style chapter for a otherwise less character based novel about the refugee crisis and the direction of the world. I imagine this being a 'flashpoint event' that would start the much more politically focused events of the novel. To wit, this is the news, the next chapter could be the news report. I know that's not really a great excuse, but to some extent I intended to keep the reader in the dark as long as possible, to stretch out the story a bit, and then to hit them with what happens at the end. The events would be covered immediately again in the next part-- which would be much more factual and obtuse. I felt a bit like I had to introduce and build these characters in order to make their deaths more significant / shocking. I'm guessing that the dream sequences are a bit tedious and boring. I can see how this would defeat their purpose. I honestly have never done any creative writing before although I have done a bit of academic writing, had this idea and felt like I had to write it down. After that I really just wanted to know if it was absolute poo poo or passable. It's probably not going to be a dedicated hobby for me, but I do like to value my time and I enjoyed writing this. Varicelli fucked around with this message at 03:35 on Oct 27, 2015 |
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Oct 27, 2015 03:12
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Thanks for the writeup, Dr. etc. I actually had read that series from Harmon over a decade ago on his forums, back when I was watching Channel 101. The idea of a cookie cutter formula for stories seemed dumb to me then but I guess I need to start somewhere.Malloreon posted:EDIT 2: also eliminate things like "the train was moving" - there's no need for a "to be" verb there. "the train moved" changes the sentence from a description of state (a snapshot) to an action. It "moves" the story along rather than freezing it in place.  That's not how continuous tense works.
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Oct 27, 2015 19:48
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Varicelli posted:a lyricisim (not in a good way) and awkwardness to my writing. HOLY. poo poo. Varicelli posted:
Let me ask you this: Did you value our time? This wasn't nearly as bad as many of the other times someone has popped in to share the idea they had and felt like they had to write down and then just really wanted to know if it was absolute poo poo or passable. Did you edit yours before you asked all of us to spend our time reading it? Would you believe some people don't even do that? They don't even take the time to read their own writing before they ask us to!! If you're not going to make it a dedicated hobby, then I guess it doesn't really matter if it's absolute poo poo or passable does it? So why ask? Since it doesn't matter, I'll tell you: It's amazing. It's really great! You could probably be the great next American Novelist! too bad you're not going to make it a dedicated a hobby, because you do like to value your time so much, but at least you enjoyed writing this and we spent our valuable (maybe?) times giving you our opinions on it. Dr. Kloctopussy fucked around with this message at 03:57 on Oct 28, 2015 |
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Oct 28, 2015 03:55
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Dr. Kloctopussy posted:HOLY. poo poo. Also - Fuschia tude posted:The idea of a cookie cutter formula for stories seemed dumb to me then but I guess I need to start somewhere. The reader will want to read more because they like your story, or think they know what's coming, or a million other reasons; most of which tend to fall under the reader's expectations. Kind of like designing cars. You put the steering wheel where people expect it to be. Sure, you could be a rebel and go all crazy, but most folks probably won't get in your car. magnificent7 fucked around with this message at 17:50 on Oct 28, 2015 |
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Oct 28, 2015 17:45
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magnificent7 posted:Which is to say, defending your writing is never as well received as, "Thanks, these are all great points, I'm going to go back and work on this some more." Actually what I was saying was that the way he described his own novel made it sound loving horrifying. "The next chapter of the book will be the exact same information, but even more boring and hard to read." "This chapter is a vignette where nothing happens. The rest of the book won't have any characters." "This isn't so much a story as a political screed."
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Oct 28, 2015 18:09
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Mag7 I agree, I think there are only two things you can do as a person writing words: give people what they expect, or give them what they don't expect. Both have their place, but knowing when to do which one is what will make people want to read your words.
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Oct 28, 2015 20:20
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I am a bit confused but I am sorry if I wasted your time.
Varicelli fucked around with this message at 03:43 on Oct 29, 2015 |
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Oct 29, 2015 03:39
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If you had fun doing a bit of writing then keep writing. Don't let some goons who stalk Creative Convention just waiting to snipe threads with new posts get you down. I like the motto of 'just write'. It sounds authoritarian, but it's got a hopeful side. Whatever you want it to be, just write. Don't worry about 'is it good right now'. So what? Just write. Writing is all you, just yourself and the ideas and creation. If it makes you feel good, do it. It doesn't have to be good, it doesn't have to be a story, it doesn't have to be something you want to commit a month to so that you can come out the other end with 50,000 words and a sloppy rough draft. Just write. One of the first things I wrote creatively was made-up books for Elder Scrolls games. If that's not a terrible place to start from I don't know what is, but you know what? I just wrote them, for an audience of no one but me. It's late, and I'm sleepy. But just write. That's my Fiction Advice. Even if people think you weren't good. Especially if people think you weren't good. gently caress them. Do it again, have more fun, and do it better. The only way you could waste my time is if you decided, after taking my advice, not to write. 
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Oct 29, 2015 12:00
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Varicelli posted:I am a bit confused but I am sorry if I wasted your time. new thread title
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Oct 29, 2015 12:04
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I don't care if my writing is poo poo, but I do want to know. Honestly I thought I was clear, but it seems like I was misunderstood. As much as I enjoy this, I also like to know where I am at. I wasn't defending my work, I was explaining why there are a few facets of it that are the way they are and attempting to contextualise it. I pretty much 100% do not plan on writing the 'rest of the book', but it's a very real (conceptual) part of the reason this story was written. The short story doesn't particularly function well without the idea of the book. On its own, the narrative is slow, tedious, and fairly unexplained. If you consider it with the idea of what WOULD come after, I think it makes a little more sense. So, by disconnecting from the INHERENT problems with its context, I thought I could get some good actual interface with my writing. I get that narrative is the most important part of it, but honestly I think if I tried to write a good (formulaic / derivative) short story, I probably could manage something. Everyone else gave me great advice, and I didn't mean to suggest I wasn't going to take it... exactly the opposite. The reason it sounds "loving horrifying", despite the way you interpreted what I said as prescriptive, is because it probably would be. Struggling to think about the exigencies of planning and writing a serious semi-political 'alternate history' was part of the reason I instead decided to write the flashpoint event that would precipitate the latter events, both to escape having to write them, and to help me prompt what would come next. Maybe if I had prefaced the story / post with this context instead of explaining it afterwards, it wouldn't have precipitated (fair) criticisms of the way I think about writing (???) because honestly I didn't think about it at all... Varicelli fucked around with this message at 14:33 on Oct 29, 2015 |
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Oct 29, 2015 14:24
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Varicelli posted:The short story doesn't particularly function well without the idea of the book. Let me just stop you right here. A short story has to function on it's own. Like, that's not even up for debate, it's an absolute necessity. Almost every short story that has ever been published (as in, someone paid the writer for it) has been written on it's own merit. Sure, there are rare exceptions: Alastair Reynolds has some short stories in the Revelation Space universe that are much better understood if you've read some of the books in that universe, but that's because there are already 5 established books. You're asking us to accept a short story based on a theoretical book that you don't actually intend on writing anyway, and that's why it's effectively impossible to judge the story on its merits. Varicelli posted:Maybe if I had prefaced the story / post with this context instead of explaining it afterwards, it wouldn't have precipitated (fair) criticisms of the way I think about writing (???) because honestly I didn't think about it at all... No, you absolutely would have received the same criticisms, because short stories shouldn't be "prefaced" with context. That kind of defeats the whole purpose of a short story.
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Oct 29, 2015 15:48
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Cpt. Mahatma Gandhi posted:Let me just stop you right here. That's why I'm trying to explain that it isn't really a short story, and I'm not trying to avoid.. ugh... Forget it. I don't know what I'm doing. Now I'm wasting both all your, and my own time. Thanks, to those who commented. Varicelli fucked around with this message at 17:11 on Oct 29, 2015 |
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Oct 29, 2015 17:08
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The only way I can see it working is if you hold it back until you've written the novel, and then offer it as a bonus to mailing list subscribers. This is assuming you're planning on self-pubbing though, a trad publisher may not want to bother with the hassle.
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Oct 29, 2015 17:26
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Varicelli posted:That's why I'm trying to explain that it isn't really a short story, and I'm not trying to avoid.. ugh... A better exercise would be to write a short story that condenses your novel. Like, if I have an idea about two ladies surviving a zombie apocalypse with a theme on motherhood, then I could write a short story about...two moms surviving the zombie apocalypse. Could this stretch to a full novel? Probably! A short story is a good way to test run the idea though. It only needs a beginning, a middle, and an end. The idea is that a short story is totally self contained. People expand their shorts into novels all the time, Ray Bradbury did that with Fahrenheit 451. But the first thing he did was write a tiny plot. E: I think you're reaching too far too soon. You don't understand how to structure a story, your characters probably don't have distinct voices, and since you've never done this before then you probably don't have the stamina to write chapter after chapter. This is okay. It just means you're a beginner. It's okay to be a beginner. Start small. Don't reach for a novel first. Prove to yourself that you can complete a full story. Even if it's only a few sentences long. HIJK fucked around with this message at 17:50 on Oct 29, 2015 |
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Oct 29, 2015 17:48
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I'm working on a new draft of my novel and want to send out letters before the end of the year, but none of my publishing friends have the time to read my manuscript. If I want feedback from people, should I make a thread with a google docs link? Would people even bother reading and commenting on a 100,000 word wip book?
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Oct 29, 2015 17:51
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change my name posted:I'm working on a new draft of my novel and want to send out letters before the end of the year, but none of my publishing friends have the time to read my manuscript. If I want feedback from people, should I make a thread with a google docs link? Would people even bother reading and commenting on a 100,000 word wip book? Is there any reason your non-publishing friends or family can't read it? 100,000 words is a huge ask for strangers on the internet unless you're willing to pay them. Lord knows I have better things to do with my time (like working on my own 100,000 word wip novel  )Best of luck! Cpt. Mahatma Gandhi fucked around with this message at 18:01 on Oct 29, 2015 |
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Oct 29, 2015 17:58
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Cpt. Mahatma Gandhi posted:Is there any reason your non-publishing friends can't read it? 100,000 words is a huge as for strangers on the internet unless you're willing to pay them. They're all being super slow about it, or they're too busy. And yeah, I figured as much which is why I asked.
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Oct 29, 2015 17:59
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100k is a lot to ask without even promising pay once it does come out.
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Oct 29, 2015 18:04
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Also, for what it's worth, I know from my own experience that agents prefer you query them once your novel is actually done rather than while it's a work in progress, although since you said you had friends in publishing you may be able to skirt around that.
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Oct 29, 2015 18:10
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Bobby Deluxe posted:100k is a lot to ask without even promising pay once it does come out. He could have people review the first few chapters and get feedback on that. Chances are if I hate a book by chapter 3 I won't like it any more by chapter 33.
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Oct 29, 2015 18:40
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Cpt. Mahatma Gandhi posted:Also, for what it's worth, I know from my own experience that agents prefer you query them once your novel is actually done rather than while it's a work in progress, although since you said you had friends in publishing you may be able to skirt around that. I'm not sure you could skirt around it even then. Agents love finding new work to rep, it's why they do the job! But they have an enormous volume of submissions, so if you don't meet the requirements they're looking for a reason to discard you. readingatwork posted:He could have people review the first few chapters and get feedback on that. Chances are if I hate a book by chapter 3 I won't like it any more by chapter 33. This is a pretty good idea. Honestly, within a few paragraphs of prose I often feel like I have a decent idea of whether or not a book has a shot.
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Oct 29, 2015 19:53
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Varicelli posted:
This was the part I had a problem with, and sorry I kind of jumped on you harshly for it. Way too many people write something without putting much thought into it, don't even bother to do any editing, then expect other people to spend time reading and critiquing it. When people say it's not great, (which isn't surprising because 1) they usually haven't written much before and 2) writing is really hard and most of us are pretty much beginners around here) and give them constructive feedback, the poster says they just wanted to know if it was complete poo poo or not, and they don't really care if it is because aren't planning on doing anything else with it. Aaaand then it becomes clear that we've all wasted our time for nothing. It's extremely irritating. From your post, it looked like that was exactly what you are doing. With the annoying bonus of trying to explain what you were really trying to do when people told you why your story failed. So yeah, I bitched at you. If you're going to keep writing, and actually use people's feedback to improve, then awesome. Do that, and keep coming back and getting more feedback. Most of the time it will be really useful and less mean, even. Like Djeser said, "Don't let some goons who stalk Creative Convention just waiting to snipe threads with new posts get you down." Hopefully this post clarifies my very strong opinions on the matter and helps everyone understand why I was rude.
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Oct 29, 2015 23:15
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Or maybe you're just a rude gus
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Oct 30, 2015 00:21
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crabrock posted:Or maybe you're just a rude gus I've mastered the "not actually an apology at all"
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Oct 30, 2015 00:37
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Bobby Deluxe posted:100k is a lot to ask without even promising pay once it does come out. Sorry, new draft = "third draft". I've already gone through a bunch of revisions and it's almost done, but I haven't gotten much feedback from other people, is my concern. Posting the first 3 chapters for critique sounds like a better idea honestly. change my name fucked around with this message at 02:06 on Oct 30, 2015 |
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Oct 30, 2015 01:28
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What's the popular opinion: is it better to say said Character Name or Character Name said?
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Nov 1, 2015 20:04
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I prefer "quaffed" or "chortle-sneezed".
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