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The trick with adapting manga (and really comics in general) is that time isn't consistent from panel to panel. Sometimes you'll get a single, fleeting moment drawn out over several pages; sometimes you'll get a bunch of implied action condensed into one. The flow between panels, similarly, is subject to what exactly is happening. For instance, here's page from the chapter 2, "Roaring Muscles."  Allowing yourself time to actually take in all the panels (as opposed to speedreading), the average person will "Finish" this page somewhere in the ballpark of 10-to-15 seconds. That's pretty fast. Even so, the implicit time frame of this page is actually quite lengthy: we're watching Deku train over a series of months. Now thanks to the magic of sequential art, a single panel of, say, Deku jogging and panting is enough to carry the idea that he's been jogging for a bit and is maybe exhausted. A single panel of him lifting a weight is enough to fill in the motion of him raising and lowering weights in general. Very economical. You adapt this into an anime though and those bits need to be animated. Deku needs to shake and struggle while pushing against that truck in the middle panel as the rain starts to come down and All Might sighs and throws up his hands. That takes time. Deku throwing up and looking up, exhausted by freshly determined, takes time. All Might turning to pose for the ladies as Deku swims takes time. All these things take time. Of course, we don't KNOW that the anime is gonna be a panel-for-panel adaptation, and in truth it probably won't be. They'll likely cut some corners. The point is though that any attempt to handle the time frame suggested by this single page will likely take longer to execute in animation than it would for you or I to read it as is. By contrast, take a gander at these pages later on in the same chapter.   At two pages, this little sequence is twice as long as the previous one, yet obviously takes place over a much shorter span of time. Thanks to the larger panels, I read through both these pages in the same amount of time it took me to read the previously posted single page. Due to the nature of this particular scene, I don't think an anime would really do much to stretch it out past how long it takes to parse anyway, but it'll most likely take less time to execute than the previous training montage. All this to say, you can't just say "Well, if the average chapter is 20 pages, two chapters per episode seems about to hit the necessary time slot." Depending on the content and context of the chapter, it could very well fill an episode by itself...or require the next chapter (and the perhaps next after) to fill itself out. Where things really get tricky is factoring in fights and dialogue, since fights in general tend to flow pretty quickly (even if the fight in question lasts several chapters) while dialogue gets drawn out (even if it only lasts a couple pages). Combining fights and dialogue and, well, you've got yourself a bit of a pacing issue to overcome.
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Oct 28, 2015 22:02
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| # ? Jun 7, 2024 09:42 |
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99% of One Piece's filler is complete dogshit but the G8 filler is pretty good.
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Oct 28, 2015 22:03
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Dr Subterfuge posted:Just as an aside, is there ever well done filler? Do production companies ever wind up pleasantly fleshing things out with their filler? Maybe I'm just bitter about how shamelessly Toei milks One Piece for money. Gintama has the best filler because everyone working on that show is self aware about how lazy they are. It's usually just still frames of the characters yelling at each other about how unpopular they are and how little money they have and how much they want to draw Dragonball Z characters. It's the best.
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Oct 28, 2015 22:06
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Dr Subterfuge posted:Just as an aside, is there ever well done filler? Do production companies ever wind up pleasantly fleshing things out with their filler? Maybe I'm just bitter about how shamelessly Toei milks One Piece for money. Bleach Filler used to be better then Bleach right before it ended. Bad Seafood posted:It's an imprecise science, to be sure. The recent Hunter x Hunter adaption covered the first five volumes of the series in 24 episodes (plus two recaps). By contrast, David Production's ongoing Jojo efforts covered all of Phantom Blood (five volumes) in 9 episodes while covering the first five volumes of Stardust Crusaders in 16. I feel like part of this is them adapting towards what people want to see; Phantom Blood is loving good, but most people who think of Jojo think of Stardust Crusaders; the individual stories also get far more packed as time goes on; Phantom Blood took 5 Volumes but it was very snappy; there wasn't a super long amount of time being presented past the first chapter of Dio and Jonathon grwoing up; once Dio gets the Stone Mask it's a pretty straight collision. Meanwhile Stardust Crusaders is an around the world trip that clearly takes several months even once it gets started, and every step of that trip is dogged by Dio's Henchmen.
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Oct 28, 2015 22:09
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Soylentbits posted:Gintama has the best filler because everyone working on that show is self aware about how lazy they are. It's usually just still frames of the characters yelling at each other about how unpopular they are and how little money they have and how much they want to draw Dragonball Z characters. It's the best. One of the filler episodes was entirely film of a pair of mannequins dressed as Gintoki and Kagura, standing in a variety of waste locations near to the animation studio, talking about the responsibilities they share as actors and how to manage a budget. It was amazing. e: 
Mystic Mongol fucked around with this message at 22:22 on Oct 28, 2015 |
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Oct 28, 2015 22:13
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Stallion Cabana posted:Bleach Filler used to be better then Bleach right before it ended Let's be fair here, it wasn't really given a high bar to pass.
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Oct 28, 2015 22:18
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Dr Subterfuge posted:Just as an aside, is there ever well done filler? Do production companies ever wind up pleasantly fleshing things out with their filler? Maybe I'm just bitter about how shamelessly Toei milks One Piece for money. In general, they're unable to flesh things out with filler since it could step on the author's toes of whatever he may be planning, which is why filler arcs tend to be not great since they have to keep the characters as static as possible. One Piece actually ran into this issue twice with its filler, the first time when Zoro was able to cut steel easily, and then it became a big plot point of how Zoro was unable to do exactly that, and had his whole able to see the essence of things moment in Alabasta. The 2nd time was when Chopper ate like 3 rumble balls one after the other in Davy-back, and then it became a big plot point about how he should not do that. Bleach is just a fun case of "Well, we can't insert any filler into this story arc in any natural way, so we're just gonna pause the story and make up our own thing." Since its filler arcs actually had endings, it's really easy to see why its filler ended up slightly better than its actual story. Basically comedy filler is best filler, a la Dragonball driving school and Gintama filler.
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Oct 28, 2015 22:49
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Wasn't most of the later Bleach filler written by Kubo himself? I though the Hell arc filler was Kubo?
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Oct 28, 2015 23:08
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Just the Hell arc I think.
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Oct 28, 2015 23:12
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Dr Subterfuge posted:Just as an aside, is there ever well done filler? Do production companies ever wind up pleasantly fleshing things out with their filler? Maybe I'm just bitter about how shamelessly Toei milks One Piece for money. The one example that comes to mind for me is the Odin arc in Saint Seiya. It was an amazing arc, very emotional and with some pretty cool fights, and honestly it was better than some of the canon arcs (like its immediate follower, the Poseidon arc). Hell, it was so good Soul of Gold basically just decided to be Part 2 to it and it worked. That said good filler is rare. And quite a few times it runs into problems with plot holes or simply being unevenly written or animated. Never do filler.
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Oct 28, 2015 23:24
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Some anime have filler scenes during episodes that are pretty good. Stardust Crusaders had lines and scenes that were added to the anime that fleshed out the story and helped connect it to other parts of the story, such as including the picture seen in part 5, showing a magazine cover with modern day Smokey on it and Joseph and Dio talking about Erina. IIRC Hunter x Hunter 2011 had things like that too. On the other hand, One Piece does this absolutely terribly, ruining the pace, repeating what were 1-panel jokes in the manga and running them into the ground, and creating plot holes.
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Oct 29, 2015 01:25
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The problem with using things like Jojo's and HxH2011 as your examples is that it's infinitely easier to know what you can add in when you're 10~20 years behind the source material rather than 1, at most.
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Oct 29, 2015 01:30
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I picked those two as examples because 1.) they're both long-running shounen 2.) whose first five volumes were interpreted very differently with regards to length and pacing while still feeling "Right." This might just be me, but I don't feel like Phantom Blood was rushed nor the Hunter Exam was drawn out. Despite having virtually the same page count to go off of, these stories were both paced very differently and adapted very differently as a result. One Piece's first five volumes were adapted in 20 episodes, whereas Bleach's were adapted in 13. Naruto got 27. I've only kept up with the manga iterations of some of these though, so I dunno how well the pacing holds up once they make the jump. My only two points in all of this is that there's room to speculate how much ground they'll be able to cover relative to how many episodes they have, and we shouldn't make the assumption like "40 manga pages = 20 minutes of anime" or "Three chapters = one episode" or what have you. Rereading the manga and considering how I'd personally pace it, my guesstimate was 26~ episodes, but they could conceivably drag it out, speed everything up, inject a bunch of (desirable) filler like showing other students doing their thing in full, etc.
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Oct 29, 2015 02:03
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I just think they would have to really drag their feet to end a 26-episode show on the sports festival. I could see the first cour ending with the Sports Festival easily though. 13-ish episodes feels about right.
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Oct 29, 2015 02:18
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I could see it possibly ending on Stain, but I feel like you're underestimating just how long the Sports Festival is and how much it has going on. To fit all that in 13 episodes, I feel like they'd need to hit the ground running at a breakneck pace and never stop for breath. More than likely the ultimate answer will lie somewhere in the middle.
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Oct 29, 2015 02:33
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I could see them pacing the story so that episode 13 is the first battle with the villain alliance, most of the back 13 are the sports festival, but the final few episodes are the Stain arc, with the season ending just as Deku confronts Stain in the alleyway.
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Oct 29, 2015 02:41
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My comment was mostly in response to Hitlersaurus' comment about what constituted good filler. Your examples were great for how pacing affects adaptations. I was merely bringing up that using the same material (Jojo and HxH) when talking about non-canon additions and filler is really not fair to the people that have to create these arcs without 10 years of foresight for what constitutes canon.
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Oct 29, 2015 02:44
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Dr Subterfuge posted:Just as an aside, is there ever well done filler? Do production companies ever wind up pleasantly fleshing things out with their filler? Maybe I'm just bitter about how shamelessly Toei milks One Piece for money. 
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Oct 29, 2015 03:03
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Gintama is still the best when it comes to good filler. Honestly, Gintama is best experienced in anime form because of the filler. The most memorable filler moment is when one of the characters decided to waste like 5 minutes giving a lecture on anime filler. He explained why it exists, and then he explained the different ways of doing it. It was incredibly educational. Everyone should just watch Gintama.
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Oct 29, 2015 03:25
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Bad Seafood posted:One Piece's first five volumes were adapted in 20 episodes, whereas Bleach's were adapted in 13. Naruto got 27. I've only kept up with the manga iterations of some of these though, so I dunno how well the pacing holds up once they make the jump. Bleach and OP were fine, Naruto was most certainly not. I watched the first few months of its comeback run on Toonami a year or so ago and holy hell was that thing was glacial until the Chuunin exams. Bad Seafood posted:My only two points in all of this is that there's room to speculate how much ground they'll be able to cover relative to how many episodes they have, and we shouldn't make the assumption like "40 manga pages = 20 minutes of anime" or "Three chapters = one episode" or what have you. I only said that as like the roughest of rough baselines, I'm sure I could come up with an actual idea of how it might go if I went through and reread the whole run keeping in mind how long a scene might take in animated form. I just went and took 5 minutes to count out what story beats happened when and felt like they could probably get to Stain if they declined to do any filler and stuck to a brisk pace. The sports festival definitely took a long time (for this manga, anyway) but so much of it was comprised of action scenes that I honestly don't think it would take the entire back half of an anime run to complete. That and there are only 4 or 5 fights in the tournament round that last a significant amount of time, the longest being Midoriya vs Todoroki. This is all working under the optimistic assumption that it goes well and a good studio handles it, so it could very well turn out like Attack on Titan and the second to last episode is 15 minutes of All Might staying completely motionless, challenging Shigaraki to call his bluff while it keeps cutting between shots of everyone watching and wide panning shots of the characters all standing there or something stupid like that.
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Oct 29, 2015 03:59
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Does not have to end with Stain. IT could end with the one where Deku goes "I should have seen the warning signs." and a cliff hanger for Season 2. (So I guess end of festival.)
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Oct 29, 2015 04:06
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Stain would just be a really strong end really, which is why most of us like it. I can see difficulties getting there but we'll see. I imagine we'll see something more like Bad Seafood mentioned but hey.
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Oct 29, 2015 04:07
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For what it's worth, I agree that 24-26 episodes ending with the sports festival sounds about right. Ending with Stain would be a stronger ending thematically, but they'd have to rush things a bit more, and honestly they have no reason to rush, it just makes doing a season 2 harder when they're already doing an anime kinda early. My Hero Academia is actually a pretty dense manga that gets a lot of mileage out stuff like summarizing entire fights and other events with single panels, that's going to naturally get stretched out adapting it to anime even without particularly trying to flesh things out or add scenes for fan favorite secondary characters.
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Oct 29, 2015 23:30
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Spoilers are out. http://ishuhui.net/ReadComicBooks/4027 NEW STATE SMASH.
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Oct 30, 2015 00:54
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New chapter looks  .Decided to take some time yesterday to reread the series (cause I felt like it) while also trying to chart a more exact episode count (...cause I felt like it), and the results were actually pretty interesting. Gotta take care of a few things first, but after that I'll post up my estimates and why. Here's the short version though for anybody who doesn't really care about the specifics: they could conceivably cover up to the end of the midterms.
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Oct 30, 2015 03:46
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On the whole, I think I'd rather have them take their time and only go up to the sports festival than see them push hard to cover Stain or beyond. I'm sure you could go further relatively comfortably, but there's so many things that get glossed over that it would feel like a waste to have an adaptation that doesn't expand on anything. Even if you go with the very reasonable restriction that people don't get screentime until their manga debut (so we wouldn't cover, say, the Tokoyami/Tsuyu teamup in the initial 'heroes vs. villains w/bomb' teamup, because they both get proper intros later), that leaves us with plenty of material from USJ--in particular Bakugou and Kirishima--and the entirety of the sports festival. It gives us a better look at things, and it also means we don't necessarily have to wait as long for a second season.
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Oct 30, 2015 05:20
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Okay, so, hypothetical MHA episode list. Because I was rereading it anyway and had the time and am maybe just maybe a little neurotic? Since for this sort of thing the first chapter almost always translates to its own episode, I decided to run a stopwatch to see how long it took me to finish it, clocking in at about 10 minutes. I was careful to actually read all the dialogue, rather than just parsing it, and likewise allowed my attention to linger panel to panel as appropriate. My point here is I wasn't speedreading or skipping over anything while filling in the gaps from my memory. Thereafter I glanced at the clock every now and then while reading and made little notes to myself regarding how much material I'd managed to cover in a comparable time. If I felt like a lot was happening, I sometimes checked off an episode a minute or two earlier. I quit reading at chapter 60, which translated into 24 episodes by my estimation, so the last two episodes are just me guessing. Most of these mock episodes I just named after their respective story arcs with a "Part 1," "Part 2," etc. as appropriate since I feel it gives a better sense for how long certain story arcs last. Tangentially, I decided to play director in my head and guessed at a lot of potential stinger moments. I also did a little editing to improve the flow from episode to episode, largely in the form of shuffling around flashbacks or scenes that didn't necessarily have to take place at a specific time (you'll see what I mean). Here we go.
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Oct 30, 2015 06:52
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Separate post for a separate subject, this reread made me really appreciate how killer most of the fights are just how good Kohei is at juggling his frankly enormous cast. Even a lot of characters who don't end up doing much that matters still get their time to shine and endear themselves to the reader, which makes it kinda funny (and a bit sad) that one student with the big lips whose name I can't even remember is literally the only odd man out. I also like Sero a lot more. Dude's a trooper.
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Oct 30, 2015 07:06
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I'm not sure why you bothered timing yourself reading it given questions of pacing are more about the events that occur per episode than anything else, but the effort is appreciated nonetheless p. decent episode outline. I like
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Oct 30, 2015 07:32
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You're good people, Bad Seafood. That was really interesting to read and seems pretty legit. I don't like the idea of ending randomly in the middle of midterms though, since I want to believe we'll see a lot more of the other groups fighting before they end, so I think stretching some pieces out and ending on the All for One stinger would be better in that theoretical run. I'd certainly be up for seeing a lot more of the Hero/Villain student exercise and the tournament, as long as they're decently done and written/overseen by Horikoshi, who is as you say incredibly awesome and good at this poo poo.
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Oct 30, 2015 07:37
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I cannot imagine that it'll actually end at that point. The midterms feel like they're going to be a bit too big right now to squeeze into two episodes - we're not done with them just yet and there's a lot there that could still be shown. Ending it where you put ep 23 feels like a significantly more natural stopping point, and it'd be very easy to stretch out three more episodes. Your pacing is very fast - your first 4 eps could pretty easily be split into 5 by moving the "normal class days" up an episode, and both the Villain Alliance and the Sports Festival could be filled with incidental filler of what the other characters are doing, there's a lot going on there. And they have every incentive to do just that because ending on the "villains flock to the Villain Alliance" stinger would be just way too strong an ending to the season, and "normal classes moving into a big action packed midterm exam" is such a good way to start a new season strong. Not to disregard the work you put in, because that's still a strong outline, but I cannot imagine the anime adaptation won't have some little bits of filler and padding in it to hit that Stain ending point.
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Oct 30, 2015 07:46
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Bad Seafood posted:Separate post for a separate subject, this reread made me really appreciate how killer most of the fights are just how good Kohei is at juggling his frankly enormous cast. Even a lot of characters who don't end up doing much that matters still get their time to shine and endear themselves to the reader, which makes it kinda funny (and a bit sad) that one student with the big lips whose name I can't even remember is literally the only odd man out. Sero is trooper when it comes to sleeping, alright! With regards to the episode summary, I feel like the chariot race would take like 2 episodes, even if it broke suspension. So much poo poo happens in a short amount of time.
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Oct 30, 2015 07:49
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Jintor posted:I'm not sure why you bothered timing yourself reading it given questions of pacing are more about the events that occur per episode than anything else, but the effort is appreciated nonetheless Cipher Pol 9 posted:I don't like the idea of ending randomly in the middle of midterms though, since I want to believe we'll see a lot more of the other groups fighting before they end, so I think stretching some pieces out and ending on the All for One stinger would be better in that theoretical run. gnome7 posted:I cannot imagine that it'll actually end at that point. The midterms feel like they're going to be a bit too big right now to squeeze into two episodes - we're not done with them just yet and there's a lot there that could still be shown. Honestly though, this outline is founded on a bunch of assumptions. It assumes a full two-cour standard 26 episode run with minimal-to-no filler. It assumes Kohei's fast-paced fights won't be fleshed out beyond what's on the page. It assumes a lot of other things I could mention. On paper it's nice but in practice there are a lot of variables. It could end on Stain with 24 episodes. It could end on Stain with 26. It could run longer than 26 episodes. The director could choose to draw things out. It's a mystery! At the end of the day all this episode list really provides is one man's attempt to fit the current series story into a two-cour show. But that's fine. I had a great time rereading the series and a lot of fun charting the hypothetical course of its adaptation. Even if my guesses end up dead wrong, I still enjoyed throwing it together. ZepiaEltnamOberon posted:With regards to the episode summary, I feel like the chariot race would take like 2 episodes, even if it broke suspension. So much poo poo happens in a short amount of time.
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Oct 30, 2015 08:17
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That seems really doable if we're going for minimal extrapolation on the source material. Also rumor is that Bones might be doing the anime.
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Oct 30, 2015 11:29
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Bad Seafood posted:But that's fine. I had a great time rereading the series and a lot of fun charting the hypothetical course of its adaptation. Even if my guesses end up dead wrong, I still enjoyed throwing it together. Knock off the pre-OP recap, the OP, the ED, The post-ED teaser and the ad breaks in between. But I think it's more likely they'd end it on Stain and the O4A stinger. But a tiny cynical part of me tells me 'season' 1 will finish on the villain invasion. Rigged Death Trap fucked around with this message at 13:12 on Oct 30, 2015 |
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Oct 30, 2015 13:08
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It's here! Well, that kind of owned.
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Oct 30, 2015 17:37
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poo poo, Deku, so loving cool. That was just all kinds of awesome. I want the second season of the anime already just for this chapter.
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Oct 30, 2015 18:26
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 all the way.Both of them
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Oct 30, 2015 18:38
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jesus what a good chapter
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Oct 30, 2015 19:06
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| # ? Jun 7, 2024 09:42 |
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That moment, when it gets animated, needs to be either slow-mo, or it breaks the colour. I will accept no substitutes. Good chapter.
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Oct 30, 2015 19:25
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