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Jack Gladney posted:Who are these professional speakers making tons of money giving lectures on ethics?
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Oct 30, 2015 15:55
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Woolie Wool posted:I actually have to agree with Levine, but I think that actually counts against Levine. Bioshock used Objectivism basically as a framing device to remake System Shock 2, without really having anything to say about Objectivism. I really don't want to continue this derail, but every single aspect of the world of Rapture is designed to communicate a way in which a society based on Objectivism is doomed, so now I'm gonna type my loving thesis on Bioshock because "it has nothing to say about Objectivism" is objectively wrong, and you are wrong on the internet. This is the famous opening speech of the game, which establishes both Rapture and the character of Andrew Ryan: quote:I am Andrew Ryan, and I'm here to ask you a question. Is a man not entitled to the sweat of his brow? 'No!' says the man in Washington, 'It belongs to the poor.' 'No!' says the man in the Vatican, 'It belongs to God.' 'No!' says the man in Moscow, 'It belongs to everyone.' I rejected those answers; instead, I chose something different. I chose the impossible. I chose... Rapture, a city where the artist would not fear the censor, where the scientist would not be bound by petty morality, Where the great would not be constrained by the small! And with the sweat of your brow, Rapture can become your city as well. The rest of the game is one enormous refutation of the second half of that speech. Let's pick up where he starts listing the virtues of Rapture. He says that Rapture is a city where "the artist would not fear the censor", and in the game this idea is embodied by Sander Cohen. Under the pretense of art, he has operated unmolested as a serial killer. Because of his protection from "censorship", he abnegates his social responsibility, and thus undermines society. Dr. Tenenbaum is the "scientist not bound by petty morality", and without any ethical guidelines to stop her, she creates the abomination that is ADAM, and its social byproducts, the Big Daddies and Little Sisters. She has abnegated her social responsibility as well. And Ryan and Fontaine are the "great not constrained by the small", and because their egos are allowed to run unchecked, their conflict destroys the very society they live in. It's also established, though less directly, that Rapture is even more socially stratified than the surface world, since the "great" are free to exploit the "small" as much as they wish, making "And with the sweat of your brow, Rapture can become your city as well" a lie. The entire thesis of the game is that Objectivism is built on abnegation of social responsibility, and that a society without social responsibilities is inherently doomed. It has an absolute uniformity of purpose in advancing this thesis. There are no tangents on "well maybe the opposite is just as bad", Bioshock is determined to prove the impossibility of Objectivism. It is not a subtle work.
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Oct 30, 2015 16:27
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Woolie Wool posted:Whites invented racism, built racism, defined all the (entirely arbitrary) racial categories, and maintain all its institutions. All other racist projects like the WWII-era Japanese Empire are only variations on the white theme. Racism is not just about capitalism, it's about white people themselves, who they are as people, how they understand themselves, and how they relate to others. If white people in the US instituted communism, they would work racism into it, even if it caused the communist project to implode. Racism may have started as an economic exploitation machine but it's grown beyond that, the tail is wagging the dog and now racism defines white people as much as white people define racism.
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Oct 30, 2015 17:42
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On the contrary I see it more like implicating America in gun violence in Mexico because most of the guns used in cartel killings come from America (among many other reasons).
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Oct 30, 2015 18:11
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DStecks posted:
Yeah, I think you hit the nail pretty square on the head there
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Oct 30, 2015 18:43
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Woolie Wool posted:On the contrary I see it more like implicating America in gun violence in Mexico because most of the guns used in cartel killings come from America (among many other reasons). Non-white people are entirely capable of being just as awful as white people, completely on their own. Of course, western-made weaponry and the legacy of colonialism help. But they're neither necessary nor sufficient.
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Oct 30, 2015 18:49
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Woolie, you are American, right?
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Oct 30, 2015 18:50
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Cingulate posted:And probably almost nobody would deny the important factor the US are in Mexican cartel crime (though I'd guess the money/drugs being illegal is a much more important factor), but to argue it is actually the US, and just the US, that's to blame here is a massive, insulting, and I argue racist, denial of agency of the Mexicans involved. It's not so much that white people are the unique genesis of racial prejudice, but instead because they created a world in which the practice of systemically racist national policies was necessary to compete.
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Oct 30, 2015 18:57
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^^ Yeah thisCingulate posted:Non-white people are entirely capable of being just as awful as white people, completely on their own. Of course, western-made weaponry and the legacy of colonialism help. But they're neither necessary nor sufficient. I think you're kind of talking past us here, nobody's denying this or saying that (ethnocentric) racism is a purely white people phenomenon, the point is that white society has taken this and turned it into something so core to their own identity and existence that it's become systemic racism. Yes the original reasons that happened were colonialism and capitalism but it's continuation is mostly divorced of those now, and getting rid of it is nearly impossible because it is so ingrained in national and personal identity.
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Oct 30, 2015 19:00
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Cingulate posted:And probably almost nobody would deny the important factor the US are in Mexican cartel crime (though I'd guess the money/drugs being illegal is a much more important factor), but to argue it is actually the US, and just the US, that's to blame here is a massive, insulting, and I argue racist, denial of agency of the Mexicans involved. Are you too stupid to understand that multiple people or groups can be complicit in a bad thing, or are you merely pretending to be stupid so you can misrepresent my position? Either way, gently caress you. Yes, I'm American and I'm focusing on America's atrocities in particular both because they are more familiar and because they are particularly extreme, are still ongoing, and American white people refuse to acknowledge or come to terms with any of them.
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Oct 30, 2015 19:02
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LordSaturn posted:It's not so much that white people are the unique genesis of racial prejudice, but instead because they created a world in which the practice of systemically racist national policies was necessary to compete. Parallel Paraplegic posted:^^ Yeah this Also Woolie's point seems to be that any racist action can be blamed on white racism. If by speaking in the 1st plural here you position yourself as agreeing with that proposition, consider me rather surprised. It does seem to me you're claiming colonialism and capitalism are the origin of non-white racism though, is that correct?
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Oct 30, 2015 19:05
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Woolie Wool posted:On the contrary I see it more like implicating America in gun violence in Mexico because most of the guns used in cartel killings come from America (among many other reasons). The use of "implicate" is what's tripping me up, then. I don't see how Group A is culpable for the outcomes of Group B independently adopting and implementing their ideas. I think you're ascribing way too much intentionality and agency to autopoietic social systems. White supremacy isn't a Thing because white people have a unique racist gene or something, it's a Thing because white people are invested (however consciously or unconsciously) in a system that reproduces and reinforces white supremacy. Take the education system -- there is a lot of hand wringing about how a teacher can be anti-oppressive within the framework of a system that reinforces structural inequalities, and I think the answer is that they can't. They can do their best to redress wrongs as they encounter them in their subjective experience but they are ultimately enabling and perpetuating an objectively oppressive system. In that sense I don't think racism is a "choice" per se because you are implicated in perpetuating a racist regime by virtue of participating in a white supremacist society, similar to how anti-capitalism isn't really a viable choice by virtue of needing to survive within the framework of a capitalist society. The implication of blaming "white people" or the Tim Wise example you cited is, to me, that it suggests 1. that "white people" are somehow above or in control of white supremacy whereas I would contend they are as ensnared by it as anyone else; and 2. that the problem is localized in the individual. I don't think the answer to white supremacy is banking on hundreds of millions of individual white people spontaneously developing enlightened anti-oppressive/anti-racist attitudes. As an aside, I'm not trying to make a "poor white people" argument or equate the white experience with the black experience or anything of that sort. I'm just not sure how fruitful a question like "Will white people ever stop being racist?" is. Also I'm organizing my thoughts as I go along. Apologies if I sound particularly dumb.
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Oct 30, 2015 19:08
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Woolie Wool posted:Are you too stupid to understand that multiple people or groups can be complicit in a bad thing Which is what I took you to say. If you agree with me, like, with what I literally said in the post you're quoting here, that the US is one of multiple factors, then you are, you see, agreeing with the position you're calling me stupid for. Woolie Wool posted:Yes, I'm American and I'm focusing on America's atrocities in particular both because they are more familiar and because they are particularly extreme, are still ongoing, and American white people refuse to acknowledge or come to terms with any of them. (I'm not American.)
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Oct 30, 2015 19:08
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Cingulate posted:Also Woolie's point seems to be that any racist action can be blamed on white racism. If by speaking in the 1st plural here you position yourself as agreeing with that proposition, consider me rather surprised. Yes, but it is not dependent on capitalism, it reproduces itself through being implanted deep into the psyches of white children at their earliest, most impressionable ages through white cultures. It is fundamental to their self-image, self-worth, and worldview, and runs much deeper than capitalism. White socialists can and do reproduce the structures of white supremacy in their attempts to "help" people of color overcome capitalist domination. Even white people's attempts to combat the racism of other whites are often themselves racist! There is over a century of scholarship about this. White children are brought up to be morally broken in a very fundamental way and pass this brokenness on to their own children. I can't see any clear way to break the cycle. Not only must white people develop "more enlightened views" they must give up not only much of their property, but also their own inner selves, their relations to self and others, and the foundations of their cultures, and find things to fill the gigantic hole left behind (without being oppressive in doing so, e.g. cultural appropriation is an obvious easy way out and would derail the entire process). I think many, probably most white people would sooner die. Woolie Wool has a new favorite as of 19:31 on Oct 30, 2015 |
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Oct 30, 2015 19:19
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Cingulate posted:... and the indian caste system is not systemic racism? Yes it is? Hell I was actually going to bring that up as another example of it but I don't really know enough about it personally to back it up. The difference is India hasn't been the controlling party of much of the world's power and capital over the last few hundred years, and hasn't been used globally as the archetype of modern imperialism. Cingulate posted:Also Woolie's point seems to be that any racist action can be blamed on white racism. If by speaking in the 1st plural here you position yourself as agreeing with that proposition, consider me rather surprised. Ehh I didn't interpret what Woolie said as meaning "all racism everywhere is caused by white people," just a whole lot of it, possibly the majority of the systemic racism globally, and in some of the most problematic and oppressive flavors to boot. Cingulate posted:It does seem to me you're claiming colonialism and capitalism are the origin of non-white racism though, is that correct? Not all of it, just a lot of it.
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Oct 30, 2015 19:23
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Parallel Paraplegic posted:Yes it is? Hell I was actually going to bring that up as another example of it but I don't really know enough about it personally to back it up. The difference is India hasn't been the controlling party of much of the world's power and capital over the last few hundred years, and hasn't been used globally as the archetype of modern imperialism. Parallel Paraplegic posted:Ehh I didn't interpret what Woolie said as meaning "all racism everywhere is caused by white people," just a whole lot of it, possibly the majority of the systemic racism globally, and in some of the most problematic and oppressive flavors to boot. Woolie Wool posted:Whites invented racism, built racism, defined all the (entirely arbitrary) racial categories, and maintain all its institutions. All other racist projects like the WWII-era Japanese Empire are only variations on the white theme. Racism is not just about capitalism, it's about white people themselves, who they are as people, how they understand themselves, and how they relate to others. (I particularly don't think that last sentence - about how the identity of whites is as White - generalizes much past selected parts of the US, but the focus is on the idea that Whites invented all racism, define all racism, maintain all racist institutions, that everything else is just a copy, much like, you see, the Chinese only copy our ingenuous technology!!)
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Oct 30, 2015 19:30
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Woolie Wool posted:Even white people's attempts to combat the racism of other whites are often themselves racist! I take it you linked this ironically.
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Oct 30, 2015 19:31
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Woolie Wool posted:Yes, but it is not dependent on capitalism, it reproduces itself through being implanted deep into the psyches of white children at their earliest, most impressionable ages through white cultures. It is fundamental to their self-image, self-worth, and worldview, and runs much deeper than capitalism. White socialists can and do reproduce the structures of white supremacy in their attempts to "help" people of color overcome capitalist domination. Even white people's attempts to combat the racism of other whites are often themselves racist! There is over a century of scholarship about this. White children are brought up to be morally broken in a very fundamental way and pass this brokenness on to their own children. I can't see any clear way to break the cycle.
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Oct 30, 2015 19:33
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But I arrived at this perspective by reading essays written by non-white people, including that one. Are you going to call an Afro-Korean like Kil Ja Kim reverse racist now? 
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Oct 30, 2015 19:39
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Woolie Wool posted:But I arrived at this perspective by reading essays written by non-white people, including that one. Are you going to call an Afro-Korean like Kil Ja Kim reverse racist now? But do you understand what strikes me as insultingly US-centric about your perspective, and why Jack of Hearts smells irony here?
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Oct 30, 2015 19:44
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 But my ancestors never moved to America and owned slaves, white surpemacy is not my problem!*types on computer made with rare earth minerals mined in Congolese child slave pits financed by European companies* You do realize even the crimes still happening in America directly benefit you as a white person in Europe, right? Your economy is dependent on ours and the horrendous things done for its sake. Not to mention all the horrible things (like African resource extraction) carried out with European supervision and funding. Woolie Wool has a new favorite as of 20:00 on Oct 30, 2015 |
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Oct 30, 2015 19:55
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Okay, so my very existence is racist. Now what?
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Oct 30, 2015 20:09
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Well that's a good question, isn't it? The whole point of this discussion is that as far as I can tell, nobody knows, except violent revolution by PoC and the crushing of all subsequent counterrevolutions. I'm sure D&D could explain to you how that works. 
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Oct 30, 2015 20:11
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While I would certainly not disclaim these bad things, nor say they are not real, I will say that you seem to be constructing a sort of inverse mirror justification for white supremacy, because it is ingrained into all the whites, cannot be removed save by a basically impossible level of social and cultural adjustment (or, perhaps, mass genocide) and pervades the entire world. If it is really that massively, Demi-urgically, "trapped in the Matrix-y" bad, what if anything could be done? CAN anything be done? Is there a POINT to even making the ATTEMPT? By anyone? e: So, about the dark enlightenment folks, I guess
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Oct 30, 2015 20:12
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I kind of thought this would peter out by now.
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Oct 30, 2015 20:13
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StandardVC10 posted:Okay, so my very existence is racist. Now what? "You are intrinsically evil and your mere existence perpetuates racism, but don't take it personally. "
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Oct 30, 2015 20:13
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the trump tutelage posted:"You are intrinsically evil and your mere existence perpetuates racism, but don't take it personally. " Woolie Wool is 100% correct and this is a strawman. And it's pretty telling that so many of you are taking it as a personal attack and getting really defensive.
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Oct 30, 2015 20:58
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Woolie Wool posted:Well that's a good question, isn't it? The whole point of this discussion is that as far as I can tell, nobody knows, except violent revolution by PoC and the crushing of all subsequent counterrevolutions. I'm sure D&D could explain to you how that works. Literally kill whitey
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Oct 30, 2015 21:02
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Elephant Ambush posted:Woolie Wool is 100% correct and this is a strawman. And it's pretty telling that so many of you are taking it as a personal attack and getting really defensive. quote:White children are brought up to be morally broken in a very fundamental way and pass this brokenness on to their own children. quote:[White supremacy] is fundamental to their self-image, self-worth, and worldview, and runs much deeper than capitalism. quote:I think many, probably most white people would sooner die [than give up whiteness] quote:Racism is not just about capitalism, it's about white people themselves, who they are as people, how they understand themselves, and how they relate to others. If white people in the US instituted communism, they would work racism into it, even if it caused the communist project to implode. Racism may have started as an economic exploitation machine but it's grown beyond that, the tail is wagging the dog and now racism defines white people as much as white people define racism. quote:The whiteness remained when most of her other faculties were lost, and with her higher mental functions destroyed, the whiteness asserted itself in its ugliest, most primal form. That is how deeply ingrained racism is. "... but it's not personal." e. I think it's a Herculean task you've set out for white people if you honestly believe that those assertions aren't personal. Woolie in particular is claiming whiteness/white supremacy transcends structural inequality and is a fundamental basis of every single melanoid-deficient person's identity. That is an intensely personal claim. You're saying "You, white person reading this, by din of your skin colour you have been socialized as white and are therefore poisoned at the core." But they should somehow not take that personally, because [?]. When that white person is individually, subjectively silenced, they are told not to take it personally because they are the beneficiaries of a white supremacist society and white people as a whole cannot be silenced. When that white person is scapegoated for Whiteness, or is individually treated like (or directly labelled) an oppressor or agent of inequality, they are nevertheless not supposed to take it personally. If they are the recipient of bigotry or prejudice, they are told to take solace in their invisible structural supremacy. Maybe white supremacy seems insurmountable because theorists like Kil Ja Kim are asking white people to dehumanize themselves and simultaneously stand as avatars of white supremacy as a whole while admitting they are fundamentally broken at a granular, individual level, all without taking it personally. Whiteness as a concept is toxic. Because it is also insurmountable and inescapable if you're born to white parents, it also means white people are conceptualized as toxic. It's so absurd it would be satire if it wasn't dead earnest. I guess the counter-argument to all that would be, "it doesn't matter anyway because we don't need white people as allies." Which may be true but seems unlikely, especially in the context of North American society. unlimited shrimp has a new favorite as of 22:04 on Oct 30, 2015 |
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Oct 30, 2015 21:13
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I can't wait until whites are gone and all the PoC live in vibrant harmony in a racism-free paradise.
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Oct 30, 2015 21:18
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There is no plausible way for an individual to interact positively with a group of people that they view as completely morally broken. And the Dark Enlightenment folks are completely morally broken so lets get back to discussing/poking fun at them instead.
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Oct 30, 2015 22:10
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See, I think it's pretty clear that overt racism has significantly lessened in the last half-century, although of course there is still plenty of covert white supremeacy to go around. But 60 years ago you could proudly call yourself a racist and people wouldn't mind, and today there is at least a significant amount of social pressure not be "a racist", to the point where many white people are properly scared of this label. To a neo-reactionary, of course, this social pressure not to be an overt rear end in a top hat is the ultimate evil.
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Oct 30, 2015 22:51
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the trump tutelage posted:I'm not sure you know what a strawman is, then. Well you can say that white people are fundamentally broken at their very core and it's fine because white people can afford comforting consumerist escapism made out of the ground-up bones of orphan child soldiers and tears of a billion slow, painful deaths in the cadmium acid mines of Somalia or whatever. I am not kidding, dehumanize yourself and face to bloodshed.
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Oct 30, 2015 23:23
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Oct 31, 2015 00:51
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Cingulate posted:Racism as in putting people who look different into the outgroup will never end. Racism as in exploitation and oppression will not end as long as capitalism stands. Within capitalism, there is no end of racism. The focus on white racism is because most posters on SA are in the west and white racism either affects them the most or is the most visible form of racism in their community You moron.
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Oct 31, 2015 01:51
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Can we move the white supremacy talk to a D&D thread and just have Neoreaction and DE nonsense here?
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Oct 31, 2015 01:55
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Pope Guilty posted:Can we move the white supremacy talk to a D&D thread and just have Neoreaction and DE nonsense here?
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Oct 31, 2015 01:58
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Cingulate posted:I'm not entirely sure it counts as NRx/DE, but Sam Harris recently had a meltdown interview where he laments how everyone is so unfair and mean to him and somehow decided to post it on the internet. If you're into that kind of thing ... I'm not listening to that turd bloviate for that long. What's the gross meat of this hissy fit?
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Oct 31, 2015 02:08
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Improbable Lobster posted:The focus on white racism is because most posters on SA are in the west and white racism either affects them the most or is the most visible form of racism in their community sure but then you get the guy doing Imperial Japan apologia and that argument sort of falls apart
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Oct 31, 2015 02:27
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Oct 31, 2015 04:47
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