Why Should We Care About Property Rights?

The Something Awful Forums > Archives > Comedy Goldmine > The Goodmine > Why Should We Care About Property Rights?

Goon Danton: May 24, 2012; Don't forget to show my shitposts to the people. They're well worth seeing.

CommieGIR posted:

"We'll run the entire country on charitable donations! No, this is not a bad plan!"

It will work great! We had lots of mutual aid societies in this country up until the 1930s, when-- I would like to switch gears for a moment and talk about something else.

# ? Oct 30, 2015 20:32

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# ? May 15, 2024 03:53

Panzeh: Nov 27, 2006; "..The high ground"

Nolanar posted:

It will work great! We had lots of mutual aid societies in this country up until the 1930s, when-- I would like to switch gears for a moment and talk about something else.

Watching libertarians go on about historical mutual aid societies like they're a replacement for social services is a real treat.

# ? Oct 30, 2015 20:57

CommieGIR: Aug 22, 2006; The blue glow is a feature, not a bug; Pillbug

Panzeh posted:

Watching libertarians go on about historical mutual aid societies like they're a replacement for social services is a real treat.

I hear company towns are coming back in style...

# ? Oct 30, 2015 21:03

eNeMeE: Nov 26, 2012

VitalSigns posted:

quote:
Working for a living — and being protected by a DRO — pays really well.

Not smuggling any unfounded assumptions in here or anything, no sir.

Where the hell do they get money anyway?

# ? Oct 30, 2015 21:06

OwlFancier: Aug 22, 2013

YF19pilot posted:

From: http://archive.lewrockwell.com/orig6/molyneux1.html

This guy just doesn't understand people, does he?

What exactly does he think Feudalism is if not "a confederation of private property organising to produce a state"?

# ? Oct 30, 2015 21:31

QuarkJets: Sep 8, 2008

FilthIncarnate posted:

Also Hawaii, for what it's worth; the centuries-old native monarchy there was overthrown by a group of haole plantation owners who then petitioned the US to make them a state and legitimize their revolution.

and that wasn't even too long ago

Well, a century old. Almost. But we're still talking about a monarchy that was formed by a private group on one island conquering the other islands despite not having fiat currency or taxation, and which was then subsequently overthrown primarily by other private groups, so it's a good example of how people will gently caress each other for profit even without a "State"

# ? Oct 30, 2015 21:59

Captain_Maclaine: Sep 30, 2001

CommieGIR posted:

"We'll run the entire country on charitable donations! No, this is not a bad plan!"

"What? No of course I won't donate, you stinking, looting altruist!"
*mashes Valhalla DRO panic alarm*

# ? Oct 30, 2015 23:55

CovfefeCatCafe: Apr 11, 2006; A fresh attitude
brewed daily!

eNeMeE posted:

Not smuggling any unfounded assumptions in here or anything, no sir.

Where the hell do they get money anyway?

I thought Libertarians were all about that gold and buttcoins.

# ? Oct 31, 2015 01:31

Liquid Communism: Mar 9, 2004

VitalSigns posted:

This is your problem: you fundamentally misunderstand DROs if you think they're customer-service oriented entities that cater to individual yeoman farmers. DROs make the laws, and you accept whatever laws the DRO you can afford tells you to accept, because DRO coverage is mandatory and not having it is punishable by death (either quickly by criminal elements who take advantage or slowly by starvation and exposure because it's illegal to sell or trade with an uncovered person).

Here, take a minute and read this primer on DROs that jrod posted in an earlier incarnation of this thread. As you're reading it, keep in mind that it is an argument in favor of DROs and stateless law enforcement.

Let me reiterate: the above was posted by jrodefeld to convince us to adopt this system, and not an exercise in speculative fiction about how a horrific Shadowrun dystopia would function.

Even Shadowrun isn't that dystopian, because they admit that a fair percentage of the population is so incompatible with the lifestyle as to not be worth megacorporate dollars to keep alive, but still useful because the Corps need deniable assets to break the law for them.

That's his best idea. Something more dystopian than a setting that encourages the urban poor to sell others for spare parts to the local street doc.

# ? Oct 31, 2015 03:32

The Bloop: Jul 5, 2004; by Fluffdaddy

CommieGIR posted:

I hear company towns are coming back in style...

Sort of. I've predicted Walmart will go this way for years now. They're already supplying their own banking and medical services to employees, and you can buy everything there. I imagine a soft start like an option to be paid in Walmart gift cards but get a fifteen percent bonus in pay if you do, and having Walmart apartments right next door where you can direct pay your rent out of your check. It's coming.

# ? Oct 31, 2015 10:56

GunnerJ: Aug 1, 2005; Do you think this is funny?

Trent posted:

Sort of. I've predicted Walmart will go this way for years now. They're already supplying their own banking and medical services to employees, and you can buy everything there. I imagine a soft start like an option to be paid in Walmart gift cards but get a fifteen percent bonus in pay if you do, and having Walmart apartments right next door where you can direct pay your rent out of your check. It's coming.

They tried that exact gift card thing in Mexico but got shot down by the Supreme Court.

# ? Oct 31, 2015 13:33

Tesseraction: Apr 5, 2009

GunnerJ posted:

They tried that exact gift card thing in Mexico but got shot down by the Supreme Court.

Statist aggression rears its ugly head yet again!!

# ? Oct 31, 2015 17:18

GunnerJ: Aug 1, 2005; Do you think this is funny?

I was phoneposting before so here's a source: http://www.reuters.com/article/2008/09/05/mexico-walmex-idUSN0546591320080905

quote:

Mexico's Supreme Court ruled that the country's top retailer, Wal-Mart de Mexico, violated the constitution by paying workers in part with vouchers only redeemable in the chain's outlets, the court said on Friday.

Wal-Mart de Mexico WALMEXV.MX, also known as Walmex and a unit of U.S. retail giant Wal-Mart Stores Inc (WMT.N), gave store coupons as part of salaries, harking back to exploitative labor practices of over a century ago, the court said.

During the long dictatorship of President Porfirio Diaz, which ended in 1911, wealthy landowners and businessmen paid employees with special currency only valid in company stores.

The stores, which sold goods to poor workers at inflated prices, were banned in the constitution after labor uprisings sparked the Mexican Revolution in 1910.

Gee, it's like there's reasons we don't do this stuff anymore!

To be "fair and balanced" about it: http://www.digitaljournal.com/article/259532

quote:

Mexico's Wal-Mart has been legally reprimanded for paying employees using a voluntary program. Despite only one individual employee filing the suit, the Supreme Court of Mexico ruled that the retailer can no longer choose voucher redemption locations.

Only one employee!! Voluntary!!!!

# ? Oct 31, 2015 17:58

Beliathon: Oct 31, 2015; by Cowcaster

Crypto-Socialism? What's next?

Excerpt:

quote:

The biggest achievement and value proposition of Blockchain and Bitcoin technology is their ability to give the powers of governance and finance to the people via peer-to-peer technology. It shifts power from centralized authorities to the power of the network � the power of masses. When Feudalism transitioned to Capitalism, the power of governance was given to the masses. Yet, the power of
finance remained a centralized function.

For the first time, the Blockchain technological innovation has given society the option of decentralizing the function of finance, and control of financial industry. This also creates a transparent mechanism for jointly owning public assets and managing the regulations of public affairs without intermediaries. Many roles of the government will change, as the result of the decentralization of the function of finance. Some roles will be automated, some simplified, and some retired. The prevailing socio-economic framework will no longer fit the new ecosystem of relations and changes will be required. Is this the beginning of a transition from Capitalism to another state � the state of Crypto-Socialism?

(...)

With the absence of the power of enforcement, the credibility of the authorities is crippled. These new tools will trigger and force the changes of the socio-economic framework, just like it happened during transition from Feudalism to Capitalism.

All you misguided libertarians (read: ignorant privileged white male american assholes) may now proceed to kill yourselves in the most painful ways imaginable. Thanks.

# ? Oct 31, 2015 21:33

Beliathon: Oct 31, 2015; by Cowcaster

The game is over, shitlords. Capitalism is done. If you can't handle living in a post-capitalist civilization, the time to off yourself is NOW! I'm serious, don't wait. You're really not going to like the ultra-compassionate world of your grandchildren.

# ? Oct 31, 2015 21:34

paragon1: Nov 22, 2010; FULL COMMUNISM NOW

why did you post the exact same posts in two different threads?

# ? Oct 31, 2015 21:38

Tesseraction: Apr 5, 2009

That Thesis posted:

For the first time, the Blockchain technological innovation has given society the option of decentralizing the function of finance, and control of financial industry. This also creates a
transparent mechanism for jointly owning public assets and managing the regulations of public affairs without intermediaries. Many roles of the government will change, as the result of the decentralization of the function of finance. Some roles will be automated, some simplified, and some retired. The prevailing socio-economic framework will no longer fit the new ecosystem of relations and changes will be required. Is this the beginning of a transition from Capitalism to another state � the state of Crypto-Socialism?

The social impact of this change can be compared to the effect of abolition of slavery, while and the technological impact can be compared to the influence of the invention the combustion engine had. The economic impact seems likely to move society toward a new structure of socio-economic relationships, possibly what Marx described as socialism or some form of it.

Hahaha, this is amazing.

I for one welcome our new Communist Cryptographic Overlords. Or I would if this didn't seem more like a randomly-generated thesis.

# ? Oct 31, 2015 21:47

GunnerJ: Aug 1, 2005; Do you think this is funny?

Thought this might be of interest given the discussion of private Dispute Resolution Organizations freely contracting with independent agents for protection services: Arbitration Everywhere, Stacking the Deck of Justice

quote:

At Italian Colors, a small restaurant tucked in an Oakland, Calif., strip mall, crayons and butcher paper adorn the tables, and a giant bottle of wine signed by the regulars sits in the entryway.

The laid-back vibe matches that of the restaurant�s owner and chef, Alan Carlson, who prides himself on running an establishment that not only serves great food � one crowd-pleaser is the spaghetti Bolognese � but also doesn�t take itself too seriously.

�I�ve been a ski bum, a line cook at a Greek diner and owned restaurants, and it�s all been about having fun,� Mr. Carlson said.

Somewhat of a libertarian, Mr. Carlson said he used to associate big lawsuits with �ambulance chasers.� But that was before he needed one.

In 2003, he sued American Express on behalf of small businesses over steep processing fees. The fees � 30 percent higher than Visa�s or MasterCard�s � were hurting profits, but the restaurants could not afford to turn away diners who used American Express corporate cards.

It was a classic antitrust case: A big company was accused of using its monopoly power to charge unfair prices. But as Italian Colors v. American Express wended its way through the courts over the next 10 years, it became something far more momentous.

When the case was filed, the alliance of corporate interests, including credit card companies, national retailers and carmakers, had already been strategizing on how to eliminate class actions.

...

With the Supreme Court marginalizing state law, the only option left for consumer advocates was to use a federal law to fight back.

Enter Mr. Carlson, the owner of Italian Colors, who was still fighting with American Express. After the company won the first round, Mr. Carlson�s lawyers appealed, saying the class-action ban prevented merchants from exercising their federal rights to fight a monopoly.

�In a contest between just me � a restaurant in Oakland � and American Express, who do you think wins?� Mr. Carlson said.

Individually, none of the merchants could pay for a case that could cost more than $1 million in expert analysis alone.

The United States Court of Appeals for the Second Circuit, which included Sonia M. Sotomayor, ruled in the plaintiffs� favor in 2009.

American Express appealed again, and the case ultimately went to the Supreme Court. By the time the court heard it, in 2013, Ms. Sotomayor was a justice and recused herself.

The case centered on the Sherman Act, a muscular antitrust law that empowered citizens to take on monopolistic entities. Conservatives and liberals on previous Supreme Courts had consistently found that Americans should be guaranteed a way to exercise that right.

On June 20, 2013, the justices abandoned the precedent and ruled in favor of American Express.

Arbitration clauses could outlaw class actions, the court said, even if a class action was the only realistic way to bring a case. �The antitrust laws do not guarantee an affordable procedural path to the vindication of every claim,� Justice Scalia wrote.

Within hours, critics from across the political spectrum registered their disbelief on legal blogs. �No one thinks they got it right,� Judge Young of Boston wrote later in a decision.

The most withering criticism came from Justice Elena Kagan, who wrote the dissenting opinion. �The monopolist gets to use its monopoly power to insist on a contract effectively depriving its victims of all legal recourse,� she wrote. She went on to say that her colleagues in the majority were effectively telling those victims, �Too darn bad.�

Back in Oakland, Mr. Carlson got the news from his lawyer. The restaurateur said he had no choice but to continue accepting American Express. About a third of his customers use it, including many who run up bigger tabs because the cards are tied to expense accounts.

...

The class action [against the owner of 39 Applebee�s restaurants in Pennsylvani] was brought by a former waiter on behalf of other low-wage employees. The waiter, Charles Walton, said Applebee�s made workers sweep floors, stock silverware, scrub booths and empty trash cans, but did not pay them a fair wage for the extra tasks. The Applebee�s employees, who relied on tips, often ended up making less than minimum wage. Employment lawyers said these practices were widespread in the restaurant industry.

The Rose Group, which owned the restaurants, defended its practices and urged Judge Schiller to dismiss the lawsuit since Mr. Walton signed an employee contract that included �a mutual promise to resolve claims by binding arbitration.�

The request troubled Judge Schiller. �It is just these kinds of cases where it�s important to have a jury,� he said.

Applebee�s franchises, run by different owners, have faced similar class actions in Alabama, Florida, Illinois, Kentucky, Missouri, New York, South Carolina and Rhode Island.

In 2014, Ronnie Del Toro brought a case while working as a waiter in the Bronx. Once again, Applebee�s sought to have it thrown out.

In the meantime, Mr. Del Toro said the restaurant�s owner and two hulking men, including one who went by �Big Drew,� confronted him on the job. They warned him to �stop being a little bitch� and withdraw his lawsuit, according to an application for a restraining order that Mr. Del Toro filed in a Bronx court.

�I didn�t wait to hear anymore,� said Mr. Del Toro, who moved to Brooklyn and got the restraining order.

...

When lawyers for Applebee�s argued before Judge Schiller to have the lawsuit thrown out, they assured him that Mr. Walton, who brought the suit, could have turned down the job and not agreed to the arbitration clause.

Judge Schiller was not persuaded. �To suggest that he had bargaining power because he could wait tables elsewhere ignores reality,� the judge wrote in court papers. The Applebee�s workers, the judge wrote, must �chew on a distasteful dilemma� of whether to �give up certain rights or give up the job.�

Despite his own objections, Judge Schiller said he was bound by the Supreme Court decisions. In his ruling, he noted the �lamentable� state of legal affairs and dismissed the case.

With no other option, Mr. Walton took his case to arbitration. In April, he lost.

# ? Oct 31, 2015 21:59

QuarkJets: Sep 8, 2008

paragon1 posted:

why did you post the exact same posts in two different threads?

Because he's an idiot bitcoiner on a 1-day old account. "Lurk more" would normally be the right response, but this site already has enough idiots so "Go away" is maybe more appropriate

# ? Oct 31, 2015 22:00

Corvinus: Aug 21, 2006

The combination of regdate, Bitcoin shilling, and word choice/tone, leads me to consider the possibility its permabanned pedophile Seraph84.

Or it's someone who really is taking the piss.

# ? Oct 31, 2015 22:04

Malleum: Aug 16, 2014; Am I the one at fault? What about me is wrong?; Buglord

a sockpuppet is the ultimate expression of the free market

# ? Oct 31, 2015 22:08

QuarkJets: Sep 8, 2008

Corvinus posted:

The combination of regdate, Bitcoin shilling, and word choice/tone, leads me to consider the possibility its permabanned pedophile Seraph84.

Or it's someone who really is taking the piss.

In the bitcoin thread he made a bunch of posts about star citizen so it's probably Seraph84

But on the other hand there are a lot of idiots in the world besides just him

# ? Oct 31, 2015 22:11

BENGHAZI 2: Oct 13, 2007; by Cyrano4747

Corvinus posted:

The combination of regdate, Bitcoin shilling, and word choice/tone, leads me to consider the possibility its permabanned pedophile Seraph84.

Or it's someone who really is taking the piss.

whoa i must have missed the pedo part

# ? Oct 31, 2015 22:13

woke wedding drone: Jun 1, 2003; by exmarx; Fun Shoe

Malleum posted:

a poopsock is the ultimate expression of the free market

# ? Oct 31, 2015 22:13

Tesseraction: Apr 5, 2009

Is a man not entitled to the poop of his own sock?

# ? Oct 31, 2015 22:29

Muscle Tracer: Feb 23, 2007; Medals only weigh one down.

VitalSigns posted:

This is your problem: you fundamentally misunderstand DROs if you think they're customer-service oriented entities that cater to individual yeoman farmers. DROs make the laws, and you accept whatever laws the DRO you can afford tells you to accept, because DRO coverage is mandatory and not having it is punishable by death (either quickly by criminal elements who take advantage or slowly by starvation and exposure because it's illegal to sell or trade with an uncovered person).

Here, take a minute and read this primer on DROs that jrod posted in an earlier incarnation of this thread. As you're reading it, keep in mind that it is an argument in favor of DROs and stateless law enforcement.

Let me reiterate: the above was posted by jrodefeld to convince us to adopt this system, and not an exercise in speculative fiction about how a horrific Shadowrun dystopia would function.

good god i tried to read the entire article and couldn't get 5 paragphs. i am continually amazed by the libertarian's capacity for willful ignorance

# ? Oct 31, 2015 23:42

Guilty Spork: Feb 26, 2011; Thunder rolled. It rolled a six.

Beliathon posted:

Crypto-Socialism? What's next?

Excerpt:

All you misguided libertarians (read: ignorant privileged white male american assholes) may now proceed to kill yourselves in the most painful ways imaginable. Thanks.

Meanwhile in real life Bitcoin has been fraught with all kinds of fraud and criminal activity, and to anyone who's not a cryptocurrency maniac it illustrates why having a currency with a regulating body involved is preferable.

# ? Oct 31, 2015 23:48

Teriyaki Koinku: Nov 25, 2008; Bread! Bread! Bread!

Bread! BREAD! BREAD!

Heavy neutrino posted:

There's god knows how many historical examples of non-state groups establishing states under their control, but Molyneux is a dishonest idiot who can only deny the idea by narrowing it down to the specific example of a modern corporation overthrowing a modern state.

Weren't the Dutch/British East India companies basically historical examples of this happening?

# ? Nov 1, 2015 00:57

GunnerJ: Aug 1, 2005; Do you think this is funny?

TheRamblingSoul posted:

Weren't the Dutch/British East India companies basically historical examples of this happening?

One could point out that these were organizations chartered by governments for a national goal, but this would show ignorance of the reason why the governments in question chartered them.

# ? Nov 1, 2015 01:00

Teriyaki Koinku: Nov 25, 2008; Bread! Bread! Bread!

Bread! BREAD! BREAD!

Cerebral Bore posted:

When your utopia literally is warlordism in everything but the name, it might be time to rethink your position.

I've always pointed to Somalia and Afghanistan as fantastic examples of libertarian ideology in practice. :v:

(Coincidentally, better known as... "Failed states" :ssh:

)

# ? Nov 1, 2015 01:03

Tesseraction: Apr 5, 2009

Those don't count because they're not majority white.

# ? Nov 1, 2015 01:04

Teriyaki Koinku: Nov 25, 2008; Bread! Bread! Bread!

Bread! BREAD! BREAD!

Tesseraction posted:

Those don't count because they're not majority white.

Yeah, it reminds me of the similar conservative (read: racist) argument as to why single-payer nationalized healthcare only works in homogeneous countries and never could be possible in the U.S.

Strangely, I never saw a "You Must Be This Asian to Ride" sign when I got quality, cheap healthcare when I was in Taiwan, so who knows? :shrug:

# ? Nov 1, 2015 01:16

Who What Now: Sep 10, 2006; by Azathoth

TheRamblingSoul posted:

Yeah, it reminds me of the similar conservative (read: racist) argument as to why single-payer nationalized healthcare only works in homogeneous countries and never could be possible in the U.S.

Strangely, I never saw a "You Must Be This Asian to Ride" sign when I got quality, cheap healthcare when I was in Taiwan, so who knows?

"Too many darkies" gets thrown around as to why gun laws will never work in America too.

# ? Nov 1, 2015 01:23

Tesseraction: Apr 5, 2009

TheRamblingSoul posted:

Strangely, I never saw a "You Must Be This Asian to Ride" sign

Being fair I'm pretty sure in Taiwan they'd use Mandarin hanzi instead of English, but then I've never been.

# ? Nov 1, 2015 01:27

Nessus: Dec 22, 2003; After a Speaker vote, you may be entitled to a valuable coupon or voucher!

TheRamblingSoul posted:

Yeah, it reminds me of the similar conservative (read: racist) argument as to why single-payer nationalized healthcare only works in homogeneous countries and never could be possible in the U.S.

Strangely, I never saw a "You Must Be This Asian to Ride" sign when I got quality, cheap healthcare when I was in Taiwan, so who knows?

What is very funny to me in a way is that this is usually cited as some kind of axiomatic fact, as opposed to say a post-hoc rationalization of many Americans being quite racist, and being unwilling to improve their situation if it will also help minorities.

# ? Nov 1, 2015 04:44

CovfefeCatCafe: Apr 11, 2006; A fresh attitude
brewed daily!

TheRamblingSoul posted:

Yeah, it reminds me of the similar conservative (read: racist) argument as to why single-payer nationalized healthcare only works in homogeneous countries and never could be possible in the U.S.

Strangely, I never saw a "You Must Be This Asian to Ride" sign when I got quality, cheap healthcare when I was in Taiwan, so who knows?

That's an argument that I got to hear a lot growing up. That "socialist thing only works in 'x' country because they're all white and in the US we're much more diverse." It's constantly painted that the reason socialized medicine in the UK is failing is because 1) it's state run, and 2) immigrants. I think the modern conservative right would probably make fast friends with UKIP, the way they keep going.

Oh, and Somalia and Afghanistan failed because, "in order to have a civil society, you must first be civilized." Basically, democracy in the USA after the American Revolution worked because we (read: rich, white, former Englishmen) were already civilized. These other countries (which just so happen to be mostly not-white people) keep failing because they're not civilized, and nobody ever 'civilized' them. Those poor backwards people are just mere children to us, the grownups.

Not to derail, but where in Taiwan were you?

Tesseraction posted:

Being fair I'm pretty sure in Taiwan they'd use Mandarin hanzi instead of English, but then I've never been.

你一定是台灣的這個人得到醫療保健.

(My Mandarin is still very basic, so not sure how accurate of a translation that is).

# ? Nov 1, 2015 06:28

Strawman: Feb 9, 2008; Tortuga means turtle, and that's me. I take my time but I always win.

YF19pilot posted:

That's an argument that I got to hear a lot growing up. That "socialist thing only works in 'x' country because they're all white and in the US we're much more diverse." It's constantly painted that the reason socialized medicine in the UK is failing is because 1) it's state run, and 2) immigrants. I think the modern conservative right would probably make fast friends with UKIP, the way they keep going.

What makes you think the NHS is failing, last time I check it was consistently rated as one of the highest quality and most efficient systems in the world?

Strawman fucked around with this message at 17:00 on Nov 1, 2015

# ? Nov 1, 2015 13:36

forkboy84: Jun 13, 2012; Corgis love bread. And Puro

Strawman posted:

What makes you think the NHS is failing, last time I check it was consistently as one of the highest quality and most efficient systems in the world?

Because it's not absolutely perfect, has some weak spots, and yeah, if you've got millions of dollars you can buy better treatment in America, so shitheads like Daniel Hannan MEP go on American news channels talking about how disastrous the NHS is. Despite it being one of the few things in this country that an overwhelming majority of people agree on as being a good thing.

# ? Nov 1, 2015 13:45

OwlFancier: Aug 22, 2013

Also it is kind of heading towards a problem because the government keeps cutting funding to it and making them do everything via private contractors which are more expensive, because they hate the idea of not being able to make a profit off the NHS.

# ? Nov 1, 2015 13:52

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# ? May 15, 2024 03:53

GunnerJ: Aug 1, 2005; Do you think this is funny?

Welcome to "starve the beast," mates!

# ? Nov 1, 2015 14:19

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