Dwarf Fortress Arena Challenge: Season 5 - The Road To The Murderbowl!

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Vapor Moon: Feb 24, 2010; Neato!; The Human Font

As long as we all have a fun time. That's what I think is best.

# ? Nov 1, 2015 20:26

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# ? May 10, 2024 03:00

Emmideer: Oct 20, 2011; Lovely night, no?; Grimey Drawer

FillInTheBlank posted:

As long as we all have a fun time. That's what I think is best.

Frozen_flame posted:

Fun? in MY Fighting League?

# ? Nov 1, 2015 20:27

Ghostwoods: May 9, 2013; Say "Cheese!"

Won't affect me either way, but A.

# ? Nov 1, 2015 20:36

Spermy Smurf: Jul 2, 2004

E) I am going to put my own team in the finals regardless.

I like the user suggested C myself. Best kill/death regardless of rank.

# ? Nov 1, 2015 20:39

Locomotive breath: Feb 1, 2010

Spermy Smurf posted:

E) I am going to put my own team in the finals regardless.

Yes I agree, this seems like the only fair compromise.

_{_{_{But I guess I'll use my actual vote for option A, I guess. I feel like winning should still mean something, you know?}}}

# ? Nov 1, 2015 20:43

Ramc: May 4, 2008; Bringing your thread to a screeching halt, guaranteed.

B benefits my team.

# ? Nov 1, 2015 20:56

Anchors: Nov 27, 2007

I like C as well.

# ? Nov 1, 2015 21:12

Dark Off: Aug 14, 2015

Personally i think voting C brings most carnage

# ? Nov 1, 2015 21:34

Krysmphoenix: Jul 29, 2010

F. Free-For-All. Put all the non-champion teams in a giant arena. The last teams to have at least one member still alive go to the playoffs.

# ? Nov 1, 2015 21:45

ZeeToo: Feb 20, 2008; I'm a kitty!

"best overall records" is pretty close to "best K-D", since that'd be the tie breaker if two teams are 8 and 8 or whatever. In fact, it's actually kind of hard to have a better K-D ratio than a team that has more overall wins than you. Yes, it's mathematically possible (team that always wins or loses 4-0 vs a team that always gets at least 3 kills), but I think winning should count for something and... those possibilities are hard in practice.

I'm for A, and I would be very surprised if that didn't match "C" in practice.

# ? Nov 1, 2015 21:58

Emmideer: Oct 20, 2011; Lovely night, no?; Grimey Drawer

ZeeToo posted:

"best overall records" is pretty close to "best K-D", since that'd be the tie breaker if two teams are 8 and 8 or whatever. In fact, it's actually kind of hard to have a better K-D ratio than a team that has more overall wins than you. Yes, it's mathematically possible (team that always wins or loses 4-0 vs a team that always gets at least 3 kills), but I think winning should count for something and... those possibilities are hard in practice.

I'm for A, and I would be very surprised if that didn't match "C" in practice.

I think it's distinct difference, however, that a team who 3-4s or 2-4s consistently can go over a team that 0-4s or 4-0s with more victories; instead of having kill-deaths be the tie breaker, it should be the primary measure with victories coming in to settle ties of kill-death. This places more emphasis on the killing, which is plus for us spectators. That's the main draw; I imagine that in effect A and C would be very similar, yes, but because it leads to positive (for the audience) strategy change, C is better.

# ? Nov 1, 2015 22:04

Emmideer: Oct 20, 2011; Lovely night, no?; Grimey Drawer

Alternative to democratic vote: Each option gets a representative in a single FFA fight. Last man standing determines what rule set we go with.

# ? Nov 1, 2015 22:08

ZeeToo: Feb 20, 2008; I'm a kitty!

jon joe posted:

I think it's distinct difference, however, that a team who 3-4s or 2-4s consistently can go over a team that 0-4s or 4-0s with more victories; instead of having kill-deaths be the tie breaker, it should be the primary measure with victories coming in to settle ties of kill-death. This places more emphasis on the killing, which is plus for us spectators. That's the main draw; I imagine that in effect A and C would be very similar, yes, but because it leads to positive (for the audience) strategy change, C is better.

I'm actually okay with either way, but... what's the difference? What, as a player, am I likely to do differently to kill more enemies when we lose?

# ? Nov 1, 2015 22:29

AJ_Impy: Jun 17, 2007; SWORD OF SMATTAS. CAN YOU NOT HEAR A WORLD CRY OUT FOR JUSTICE? WHEN WILL YOU DELIVER IT?; Yam Slacker

A. Whichever kind of best record we end up using.

# ? Nov 1, 2015 22:45

Ramc: May 4, 2008; Bringing your thread to a screeching halt, guaranteed.

ZeeToo posted:

I'm actually okay with either way, but... what's the difference? What, as a player, am I likely to do differently to kill more enemies when we lose?

I guess it is a... nerf to bashing-heavy teams? Slashing is just more likely to cause mid-fight fatality due to bleed outs. Yeah. If you are gonna do it, do A (but I voted B)

# ? Nov 1, 2015 22:47

Emmideer: Oct 20, 2011; Lovely night, no?; Grimey Drawer

ZeeToo posted:

I'm actually okay with either way, but... what's the difference? What, as a player, am I likely to do differently to kill more enemies when we lose?

More points spent on higher quality weapons and weapon skills, less armor (if you believe this to be associated with more killings), a small buff to larger guys for being more lethal (sadly we are already past race choice, but hey, big guys still need love!)

# ? Nov 1, 2015 22:52

Pickled Tink: Apr 28, 2012; Have you heard about First Dog? It's a very good comic I just love.

Also, wear your bike helmets kids. I copped several blows to the head but my helmet left me totally unscathed.

Finally you should check out First Dog as it's a good comic I like it very much.; Fun Shoe

I say we just put the top 8 teams in regardless of what division they are in (So if your division utterly sucks, no one from it advances). Use most kills as first tiebreaker, then least deaths if that fails. If those are tied, make them fight it out in an arena and stick an angry giant in the middle with a silver maul.

I also propose a losers bracket for the 8 worst teams where the loser advances to the next round, so we can find the worst of the worst.

# ? Nov 1, 2015 23:08

Emmideer: Oct 20, 2011; Lovely night, no?; Grimey Drawer

Pickled Tink posted:

I say we just put the top 8 teams in regardless of what division they are in (So if your division utterly sucks, no one from it advances). Use most kills as first tiebreaker, then least deaths if that fails. If those are tied, make them fight it out in an arena and stick an angry giant in the middle with a silver maul.

I also propose a losers bracket for the 8 worst teams where the loser advances to the next round, so we can find the worst of the worst.

And at the end, loser of loser's bracket gets savagely murdered by winner of winner's bracket.

# ? Nov 1, 2015 23:26

Yvonmukluk: Oct 10, 2012; Everything is Sinister

I like the idea of an All-Stars team, though. That sounds like it could be fun. Maybe for bonus matches?

# ? Nov 2, 2015 00:01

my dad: Oct 17, 2012; this shall be humorous

OK, here's a quick explanation of weapon stats relevant to the arena, and how they work.

First of all, you have the weapon's size. This one comes in increments of 100, and is basically what you use to determine how massive your weapon is. A short sword is size 300. A two handed one is three times the size at 900.
Then, you have the type of skill required to use the weapon. For example, sword skill for swords (duh) and bows used in melee.
Next you have a tag that determines whether the weapon is blunt or has an edge. Axe be choppy, mace be smashy. A weapon can have several different attacks, in which case the edged ones take priority 90% of the time, otherwise it's randomly determined which one is used.
Then we have contact area. I already explained how it works in a previous post, so I won't go into details here. Suffice to say, smaller usually equals better, but more of it can increase damage if you have the strength to pull it off. Spears and hammers - small contact area; Axes and mauls - large contact area.
Following that, there's the penetration size which is only relevant for edged weapons. How deep can your weapon go? A knife won't cut deep, but a pike will shishkebab you.
The next one is surprisingly important: velocity multiplier. Increases the velocity of the weapon allowing it to cause more damage. Does not affect the actual speed of the attack itself. Hammers hit hard and fast, but spears - not so much. More is always better.
So, what determines attack speed? There's two stats for that, attack prepare which determines the time between starting the attack and hitting the target, and attack recover which determines how much until the weapon is available again after an attack. You can't parry if you're in the middle of an attack with the weapon in question, or the hand that's holding it. Most weapons have a 3:3. Whips have a 4:4, making them noticeably slower than other weapons.
Finally, there's an extra tag that decides whether a weapon is bad at being dual-wielded. Whips and scourges get this tag. (e: Explanation - this means the weapon is worse at parrying and hitting if there's at least one other weapon being used to attack)

In general, I think the weapons available need some balancing and diversification. But there's plenty of time to figure out exactly how.

My next post about game mechanics will be about the specifics of every weapon, alongside some pretty pictures. Maybe it'll give some of you an idea about how to improve things.

# ? Nov 2, 2015 00:16

Emmideer: Oct 20, 2011; Lovely night, no?; Grimey Drawer

my dad posted:

OK, here's a quick explanation of weapon stats relevant to the arena, and how they work.

First of all, you have the weapon's size. This one comes in increments of 100, and is basically what you use to determine how massive your weapon is. A short sword is size 300. A two handed one is three times the size at 900.

Then, you have the type of skill required to use the weapon. For example, sword skill for swords (duh) and bows used in melee.

Next you have a tag that determines whether the weapon is blunt or has an edge. Axe be choppy, mace be smashy. A weapon can have several different attacks, in which case the edged ones take priority 90% of the time, otherwise it's randomly determined which one is used.

Then we have contact area. I already explained how it works in a previous post, so I won't go into details here. Suffice to say, smaller usually equals better, but more of it can increase damage if you have the strength to pull it off. Spears and hammers - small contact area; Axes and mauls - large contact area.

Following that, there's the penetration size which is only relevant for edged weapons. How deep can your weapon go? A knife won't cut deep, but a pike will shishkebab you.

The next one is surprisingly important: velocity multiplier. Increases the velocity of the weapon allowing it to cause more damage. Does not affect the actual speed of the attack itself. Hammers hit hard and fast, but spears - not so much. More is always better.

So, what determines attack speed? There's two stats for that, attack prepare which determines the time between starting the attack and hitting the target, and attack recover which determines how much until the weapon is available again after an attack. You can't parry if you're in the middle of an attack with the weapon in question, or the hand that's holding it. Most weapons have a 3:3. Whips have a 4:4, making them noticeably slower than other weapons.

Finally, there's an extra tag that decides whether a weapon is bad at being dual-wielded. Whips and scourges get this tag. (e: Explanation - this means the weapon is worse at parrying and hitting if there's at least one other weapon being used to attack)

In general, I think the weapons available need some balancing and diversification. But there's plenty of time to figure out exactly how.

My next post about game mechanics will be about the specifics of every weapon, alongside some pretty pictures. Maybe it'll give some of you an idea about how to improve things.

How do we determine a weapon's statistics for the purpose of this tournament? Where are these values located in a way that is readable to us?

edit: also, is weapon size effected by the carrier's size?

Emmideer fucked around with this message at 00:23 on Nov 2, 2015

# ? Nov 2, 2015 00:18

my dad: Oct 17, 2012; this shall be humorous

jon joe posted:

How do we determine a weapon's statistics for the purpose of this tournament? Where are these values located in a way that is readable to us?

Go to your Dwarf Fortress folder, and you'll find the files in the raw subfolder. Use the Arena mod if you want the arena stats specifically.

jon joe posted:

edit: also, is weapon size effected by the carrier's size?

Nope.

# ? Nov 2, 2015 00:25

Emmideer: Oct 20, 2011; Lovely night, no?; Grimey Drawer

my dad posted:

Go to your Dwarf Fortress folder, and you'll find the files in the raw subfolder. Use the Arena mod if you want the arena stats specifically.

I see!

This is spear's entry:

[ITEM_WEAPON:ITEM_WEAPON_SPEAR]
[NAME:spear:spears]
[SIZE:400]
[SKILL:SPEAR]
[TWO_HANDED:47500]
[MINIMUM_SIZE:5000] amphibian men, etc., need variants
[MATERIAL_SIZE:3]
[ATTACK:EDGE:20:10000:stab:stabs:NO_SUB:1000]
[ATTACK_PREPARE_AND_RECOVER:3 :3]
[ATTACK:BLUNT:2000:6000:bash:bashes:shaft:1250]
[ATTACK_PREPARE_AND_RECOVER:3 :3]

Can you tie each value you just described to these numbers? Some of them are obvious, but others confuse me. What's NO_SUB:1000? What's MATERIAL_SIZE:3?

# ? Nov 2, 2015 00:28

my dad: Oct 17, 2012; this shall be humorous

It's literally explained right there in the file. :shobon:

Scroll up and check the battle axe description.

Material size is irrelevant to the Arena, (it's about the amount of resources needed to produce the weapon) so I didn't bother explaining it.

# ? Nov 2, 2015 00:32

Emmideer: Oct 20, 2011; Lovely night, no?; Grimey Drawer

my dad posted:

It's literally explained right there in the file. Scroll up and check the battle axe description.

Material size is irrelevant to the Arena, (it's about the amount of resources needed to produce the weapon) so I didn't bother explaining it.

Aahh, there's that lack of points in reading comprehension biting me in the butt again. Thanks!

edit: One final question I suppose, what determines which attack is used out of the option available? Is it random? Based on situation? Skill? Situation and skill?

Emmideer fucked around with this message at 00:37 on Nov 2, 2015

# ? Nov 2, 2015 00:32

my dad: Oct 17, 2012; this shall be humorous

jon joe posted:

edit: One final question I suppose, what determines which attack is used out of the option available? Is it random? Based on situation? Skill? Situation and skill?

On the same weapon, the edged one a vast majority of the time, not counting opportunity strikes.

When wielding multiple weapons? A combination of weapon skill, a degree of edged weapon priority, a touch of voodoo magic, but most of all, Armok's ever burning desire to make your fighter do the opposite of what you wanted them to do.

# ? Nov 2, 2015 00:47

Spermy Smurf: Jul 2, 2004

my dad posted:

but most of all, Armok's ever burning desire to make your fighter do the opposite of what you wanted them to do.

Hey now, my fighter got 2 arms torn off and I will have you know they were exactly the two weapons that I cared the least about.

It totally worked out for me. Ignore the fact I passed out and died moments later.

# ? Nov 2, 2015 01:01

Emmideer: Oct 20, 2011; Lovely night, no?; Grimey Drawer

Spermy Smurf posted:

Hey now, my fighter got 2 arms torn off and I will have you know they were exactly the two weapons that I cared the least about.

It totally worked out for me. Ignore the fact I passed out and died moments later.

Is your antwoman getting 4x more attacks per turn thanks to 4x more weapons, like I imagine she should, or is your build a terrible mess in which she patiently waits to stab with the daggers 1 at a time?

# ? Nov 2, 2015 01:03

Spermy Smurf: Jul 2, 2004

Well, she has died first in both fights so I dont know how to answer that.

One dagger for attacking, 3 for defending is what I assume based on the parries in the combat logs. Attacking dagger randomly chosen.

# ? Nov 2, 2015 01:05

ZeeToo: Feb 20, 2008; I'm a kitty!

Spermy is 100% correct here. Multiple weapons does not grant any extra normal attacks, nor can you control which one your gladiator fights with, if they're all the same base item (gladiators will prefer to attack with a weapon they have more skill in rather than less, so a swordsman uses a wooden sword preferentially over a steel spear, but if given a wooden sword and a steel one, it's up in the air). Also, sometimes they'll stick a hundred percent to one weapon (barring injury or dismemberment making that impossible), and other times they seem to mix it up more than opportunity attacks allow. I haven't been able to pin this one down yet.

I'm fairly sure, through testing repeatedly, that multiple weapons each get their own parry chance, though, so Antwoman should be quite the parry master. I know I ran one of her fights, but I don't recall the character build, so this is me making a guess based on write-ups and combat logs, not Gospel truth: there's probably three things holding her back. One of them is a points deficiency; weapons are expensive, so I doubt she has as much weapon skill as some others. Second, parrying does nothing against charges and the like, so being small is still a problem to be overcome when big enemies can knock her down and stun her.

Third, parrying is not the most exciting thing to report. Check the combat logs; she parries a fair bit both fights so far, but this notably averts the commissioner writing something down about exciting gore.

# ? Nov 2, 2015 01:40

Silverminnow: Feb 25, 2008; Shiniest fish in the sea!

So what we're basically saying here is that multiple different weapons isn't a great idea, if only because it's too unreliable. Multiple of the same weapon can work, but it's very expensive due to weapon costs being quite high. It's probably a better idea to get decent armor/dodging/a shield that would lessen the chances of your opponent making you drop your weapon than using multiple of the same kind. Dwarf Fortress is a strange beast though, and obviously any given match can go completely the opposite of what is expected. Half of the fun of these tournaments is trying weird/crazy builds to see if they work at all.

# ? Nov 2, 2015 02:07

Spermy Smurf: Jul 2, 2004

ZeeToo posted:

Spermy is 100% correct here...

# ? Nov 2, 2015 02:25

ZeeToo: Feb 20, 2008; I'm a kitty!

Silverminnow posted:

So what we're basically saying here is that multiple different weapons isn't a great idea, if only because it's too unreliable. Multiple of the same weapon can work, but it's very expensive due to weapon costs being quite high. It's probably a better idea to get decent armor/dodging/a shield that would lessen the chances of your opponent making you drop your weapon than using multiple of the same kind. Dwarf Fortress is a strange beast though, and obviously any given match can go completely the opposite of what is expected. Half of the fun of these tournaments is trying weird/crazy builds to see if they work at all.

Well, I've tried out things like "a soldier ant with one mace and three daggers and skill one level higher with the former than the latter". But it's never been pointwise viable. It's an interesting alternative to "weapon and multiple shields", but so far never seen the math make it work, and no one else has actually fielded it.

# ? Nov 2, 2015 03:06

Emmideer: Oct 20, 2011; Lovely night, no?; Grimey Drawer

ZeeToo posted:

Well, I've tried out things like "a soldier ant with one mace and three daggers and skill one level higher with the former than the latter". But it's never been pointwise viable. It's an interesting alternative to "weapon and multiple shields", but so far never seen the math make it work, and no one else has actually fielded it.

What about an antwoman with a bow and melee weapon? Will she alternate between firing and moving closer until she's in melee, and then mostly use the melee weapon?

# ? Nov 2, 2015 03:31

my dad: Oct 17, 2012; this shall be humorous

Moving and walking are separate parallel actions, so she wouldn't need to actually stop. Whether she charges in or stays back to shoot is up to the quirks of the AI.

e: Dual wielding can work. 3 members of the Slade Gauntlets used it, and so did several other good fighters in the tournaments. The mistake I often see people make is that they rush the second (third, fourth) weapon too soon, while it still costs as much as several levels of weapon skill.

my dad fucked around with this message at 03:39 on Nov 2, 2015

# ? Nov 2, 2015 03:35

ZeeToo: Feb 20, 2008; I'm a kitty!

jon joe posted:

What about an antwoman with a bow and melee weapon? Will she alternate between firing and moving closer until she's in melee, and then mostly use the melee weapon?

Sometimes she shoots, sometimes she decides "hey, this mace is cooler".

If you can figure out something she'll reliably do, please let me know. No, please; it's not for an advantage in this tournament, but it does play into a side project I might be working on.

# ? Nov 2, 2015 03:42

my dad: Oct 17, 2012; this shall be humorous

ZeeToo posted:

but it does play into a side project I might be working on.

What might that be?

For the recording, I'm thinking about whether it's worth it to spend time figuring out how creature raws work so that I could come up with a custom creature designer. :v:

# ? Nov 2, 2015 03:57

Cythereal: Nov 8, 2009; I love the potoo,
and the potoo loves you.

my dad posted:

What might that be?

For the recording, I'm thinking about whether it's worth it to spend time figuring out how creature raws work so that I could come up with a custom creature designer.

Survival gauntlet, maybe? Folks create their gladiators which are then pitted against creatures and monsters of escalating danger in the arena. Say, round one is a war dog that each gladiator must face in the arena. Those who survive get more points and go on to face something more dangerous in round two.

# ? Nov 2, 2015 04:13

Coward: Sep 10, 2009; _{I say we take off and surrender unconditionally from orbit.

It's the only way to be sure}

.

ZeeToo posted:

Sometimes she shoots, sometimes she decides "hey, this mace is cooler".

If you can figure out something she'll reliably do, please let me know. No, please; it's not for an advantage in this tournament, but it does play into a side project I might be working on.

What if the antwoman was packing two crossbows? Does she fire at a faster rate, or is the second crossbow used for parrying (the AI picks a crossbow to use every time one is reloaded)?

# ? Nov 2, 2015 04:42

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# ? May 10, 2024 03:00

Emmideer: Oct 20, 2011; Lovely night, no?; Grimey Drawer

ZeeToo posted:

Sometimes she shoots, sometimes she decides "hey, this mace is cooler".

If you can figure out something she'll reliably do, please let me know. No, please; it's not for an advantage in this tournament, but it does play into a side project I might be working on.

What if you gave her a ranged weapon but absolutely 0 ranged skills? Would she limit her bow use to just safe potshots then?

# ? Nov 2, 2015 04:57

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