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The Duggler posted:Why does everyone think that a referendum would fail? Persuade them that the new system is anti-Democratic, lets the loser win, specifically hurts their preferred party, etc. Then these passionate electors will care a lot about voting it down.
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Nov 1, 2015 23:32
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The Duggler posted:Why does everyone think that a referendum would fail? Because there have been multiple referendums on electoral reform in Canadian provinces and they all failed by healthy margins.
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Nov 1, 2015 23:33
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Ranked ballots are no good for me anyway because theres only one major party I can support and even then it's like ugh.
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Nov 1, 2015 23:36
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If Trudeau is suggesting it, that must mean it's good for liberals. Liberals bad, vote no! Electoral reform will lead to more conservative representation in the Maritimes. Vote no! If they change the voting system, people who didn't get elected will get into parliament. Liberal cronyism, vote no! Etc.
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Nov 1, 2015 23:38
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THC posted:Ranked ballots are no good for me anyway because theres only one major party I can support and even then it's like ugh. I think a ranked ballot would give you the option of how many ranks to assign. So if you really have only one pick, you can just rank them #1 and decline to have your vote transfer to anyone else if they lose.
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Nov 1, 2015 23:46
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Melian Dialogue fucked around with this message at 05:16 on Feb 2, 2016 |
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Nov 1, 2015 23:57
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holy loving poo poo do you dumb assholes really have to ask why democracy is bad? Do you really want baristas having a say on STV? Brogrammers at hootsuite? loving rear end in a top hat FYGM seniors who live in Florida most of the year?
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Nov 1, 2015 23:58
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Lassitude posted:Sounds like it. The Greens would gain a lot of seats especially from MMP I think. If it was like the German system, the Greens wouldn't gain any seats as it stands now because they only got about 3% of the vote and there's a threshold of 5% to gain additional seats. They did hit 6.8% in 2008 and people's voting would change with some form of PR so it could work for them in the future.
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Nov 2, 2015 00:05
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Yeah I was thinking about 2008. I think people would vote for them more if they knew their vote would actually do something, unlike now where you're just throwing it away in virtually every district. Their numbers would probably go up significantly with proportional representation.
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Nov 2, 2015 01:23
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http://www.macleans.ca/politics/ottawa/whats-an-unemployed-politician-to-do/ Ugh this is depressing...Can't believe he's wearing a star wars shirt.
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Nov 2, 2015 01:41
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He probably only agreed to let the photographer in because his name is Kawai.quote:“I’m a member of Canada Kicks rear end Gaming Clan,” he says, anticipating a new Star Wars first-person-shooter video game. “At least with things like MMOs (massively multiplayer online games), the universe doesn’t change that much, so I can pick up where I left off.” He is also spellbound by model trains and Lego. He once built a Star Wars battleship during a 24-hour voting marathon in the House of Commons, along with the 3,000-piece Imperial Star Destroyer in his Ottawa apartment, which he must also pack up on his way overseas. He has home renovation projects in mind, as well, and hopes to convert his backyard shed into an environmentally controlled workshop (for his train sets). Don't search his hard drives don't search his hard drives don
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Nov 2, 2015 01:47
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If voting reform ends up being put to a referendum the CPC will run a year worth of the most blatant race baiting fear mongering ads Canada has ever seen. "Voting for election reform is a vote to encourage Natives to be lazier, blacks to be more thieving and Muslims to join ISIS. Do the right thing, do the white thing, keep first past the post."
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Nov 2, 2015 02:20
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EvilJoven posted:If voting reform ends up being put to a referendum the CPC will run a year worth of the most blatant race baiting fear mongering ads Canada has ever seen. So nothing different than their ads just this past election. 
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Nov 2, 2015 02:56
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EvilJoven posted:If voting reform ends up being put to a referendum the CPC will run a year worth of the most blatant race baiting fear mongering ads Canada has ever seen. Presumably it would be as stunningly successful as it was during the election, which is to say not at all.
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Nov 2, 2015 03:07
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Falloutboy posted:http://www.macleans.ca/politics/ottawa/whats-an-unemployed-politician-to-do/ I am really happy this person is no longer an MP.
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Nov 2, 2015 03:15
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PT6A posted:Presumably it would be as stunningly successful as it was during the election, which is to say not at all. If you think race baiting ads won't work in Canada you must believe that the Liberals won in the Maritimes and the Prairie cities because they were so offended by Conservative campaigns about muslims and really concerned about our multicultural inclusive identity Places like Halifax used Black cemetaries as places for people to bring their dogs to gently caress and poo poo until 2010, and I don't need to tell you about the prairies' history with natives. in a referendum on the electoral process with low general turnout, these people would crush the polls. e: 2010, not 2001. gently caress the Maritimes. Isentropy fucked around with this message at 03:23 on Nov 2, 2015 |
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Nov 2, 2015 03:19
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The question of a referendum is pretty hard to resolve for me. What do you do about democratic drives that are explicitly anti-democratic? Are referendums genuinely democratic when you factor in the inarguable power of massive propaganda?
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Nov 2, 2015 03:26
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Jordan7hm posted:I am really happy this person is no longer an MP. More goons in parliament, I say.
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Nov 2, 2015 03:26
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Heavy neutrino posted:The question of a referendum is pretty hard to resolve for me. What do you do about democratic drives that are explicitly anti-democratic? Are referendums genuinely democratic when you factor in the inarguable power of massive propaganda? "The people are never wrong." - Prime Minister Stephen Harper
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Nov 2, 2015 03:29
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Referendums are loving stupid. We elect representatives to write legislation and vote for us by proxy. If we're going to have referendums just get rid of parliament, have the lobbyists propose legislation and then everything goes to a referendum with the senate confirming it.
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Nov 2, 2015 03:44
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In the end, do you leave the expansion of democracy to democracy, which is susceptible to bogus propaganda campaigns, or do you leave it up to power systems, which are susceptible to glaring conflicts of interest? It's a lovely choice either way. cowofwar posted:Referendums are loving stupid. The reason government works this way isn't (necessarily) that it leads to better policy outcomes, it's that total direct democracy is logistically impossible due to the amount of resources it would consume. There's nothing inherently wrong about the idea that direct democracy has a role to play in the formation of public policy along with representative democracy. Heavy neutrino fucked around with this message at 03:51 on Nov 2, 2015 |
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Nov 2, 2015 03:47
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Heavy neutrino posted:In the end, do you leave the expansion of democracy to democracy, which is susceptible to bogus propaganda campaigns, or do you leave it up to power systems, which are susceptible to glaring conflicts of interest? There seems to be a broad consensus that proportional representation has more pros than cons compared to FPTP. In this case it isn't a lovely choice either way, because there's a right answer. In this case, the most expeditious route to the objectively superior option is the right choice.
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Nov 2, 2015 04:03
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Lassitude posted:There seems to be a broad consensus that proportional representation has more pros than cons compared to FPTP. In this case it isn't a lovely choice either way, because there's a right answer. In this case, the most expeditious route to the objectively superior option is the right choice. Yes, but there are some proportional systems which have clear advantages over other proportional systems, and we ought to get it right the first time so we don't have to gently caress around with this ever again. STV or bust! It would be supremely ironic if FPTP won against a selection of other systems because of a FPTP referendum on this issue.
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Nov 2, 2015 04:15
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I finally watched that video explaining mpp and I finally understand it. It seems alright in general and better that fptp but I don't like how it makes political parties a real thing and I really don't like how candidate who lose in their ridings can win via the party vote. Would the party rank list be finalized ahead of time? Is it possible for a fringe party to exhaust their list?
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Nov 2, 2015 04:23
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If and when electoral reform gets changed, is there anything stopping the next government from changing it to whichever system benefits their demographics? Is it just going to create this precedent where the other parties rally in favour of replacing it and get everyone all heated like obamacare or is there anything that can be done to prevent this from becoming permanent drama
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Nov 2, 2015 04:34
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Slightly Toasted posted:If and when electoral reform gets changed, is there anything stopping the next government from changing it to whichever system benefits their demographics? Is it just going to create this precedent where the other parties rally in favour of replacing it and get everyone all heated like obamacare or is there anything that can be done to prevent this from becoming permanent drama I think Canadians are generally in favour of electoral reform, so why would they rally next election to replace whatever the Liberals come up with before they've had a chance to see it in action? Either way the scenario you describe is actually better than what we have now because we'd only have FPTP every 8 years or something like that.
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Nov 2, 2015 04:40
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EngineerJoe posted:I finally watched that video explaining mpp and I finally understand it. It seems alright in general and better that fptp but I don't like how it makes political parties a real thing and I really don't like how candidate who lose in their ridings can win via the party vote. Would the party rank list be finalized ahead of time? Is it possible for a fringe party to exhaust their list? The word "lose" is doing a lot of work here. Imagine two elections between three people in ridings of equal population. One is split 40-30-30, and the other is split 45-40-15. There are just as many people who wanted the second election's "loser" in parliament as there were people who wanted the first election's "winner." What use is there to the concept of winning and losing? It's completely meaningless. Someone can "lose" in the FPTP sense and still have a better performance than someone who "won" in the FPTP sense. As for the idea that parties aren't a "real thing" right now, I don't know what to tell you, man. Do you live on planet Earth?
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Nov 2, 2015 04:50
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Honestly, there are many things I dislike in politics and I'm a massive cynic myself, but thoughtless cynicism masquerading as political thought is a special kind of annoying.
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Nov 2, 2015 04:52
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EngineerJoe posted:I finally watched that video explaining mpp and I finally understand it. It seems alright in general and better that fptp but I don't like how it makes political parties a real thing and I really don't like how candidate who lose in their ridings can win via the party vote. Would the party rank list be finalized ahead of time? Is it possible for a fringe party to exhaust their list? Party lists can be created after the election, from the top runners-up in every riding. For example, if a riding result was 46/45/9 for LPC/CPC/NDP, the LPC candidate would win, and the CPC candidate would go near the top of the list for proportional seats.
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Nov 2, 2015 04:59
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Falloutboy posted:http://www.macleans.ca/politics/ottawa/whats-an-unemployed-politician-to-do/ oh my god lol. The post-Parliament bittersweetness extends to other aspects of his personal life, as Harris now has time for his hobbies. “I’m a member of Canada Kicks rear end Gaming Clan,” he says, anticipating a new Star Wars first-person-shooter video game. “At least with things like MMOs (massively multiplayer online games), the universe doesn’t change that much, so I can pick up where I left off.” He is also spellbound by model trains and Lego. He once built a Star Wars battleship during a 24-hour voting marathon in the House of Commons,
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Nov 2, 2015 05:00
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Heavy neutrino posted:What use is there to the concept of winning and losing? It's completely meaningless. Someone can "lose" in the FPTP sense and still have a better performance than someone who "won" in the FPTP sense. This is the crux of it. An election isn't supposed to be a sports competition, but a decision-making process. The system needs to be geared towards finding the best fit for the will of a heterogenous public, not towards an abstracted concept of victory/defeat.
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Nov 2, 2015 05:03
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cowofwar posted:Referendums are loving stupid. Politicians only use them when they don't want any blame for a bad outcome. Personally, as long as the reforms lead to the center and left ruling for the next 100 years I am fine with something other than proportional reprentation.
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Nov 2, 2015 05:16
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http://news.nationalpost.com/news/canada/battlefield-horrors-led-howard-richmond-soldier-to-stab-wife-to-death-trial-hearsquote:Battlefield horrors led Ottawa soldier Howard Richmond to stab wife to death, trial hears Yeah whatever bro.  More proof that the CF are filled with scum. Abolish it already.
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Nov 2, 2015 05:18
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Whiskey Sours posted:Party lists can be created after the election, from the top runners-up in every riding. For example, if a riding result was 46/45/9 for LPC/CPC/NDP, the LPC candidate would win, and the CPC candidate would go near the top of the list for proportional seats. Doesn't this have the potential to create massive disparities where highly contested regions are better represented than strongly partisan areas? It seems like my idiot province, owing to its idiot voters, would see nearly no progressive representation from a best-loser MMP system. The conservatives win in landslides, whereas Liberals and NDP win in dogfights; a best-loser system would see much stronger conservative representation for Alberta I would think. Our progressive votes would go to send a bunch of easterners to parliament to represent us. I say again: STV or bust!
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Nov 2, 2015 05:43
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PT6A posted:Doesn't this have the potential to create massive disparities where highly contested regions are better represented than strongly partisan areas? It seems like my idiot province, owing to its idiot voters, would see nearly no progressive representation from a best-loser MMP system. The conservatives win in landslides, whereas Liberals and NDP win in dogfights; a best-loser system would see much stronger conservative representation for Alberta I would think. Our progressive votes would go to send a bunch of easterners to parliament to represent us. Because we have regional representation mandates in the constitution and in legislation, any MMP system would almost certainly have to be proportional by province, not proportional country-wide. Alberta NDP votes would go towards electing Alberta NDs, counting the best losers in Alberta. That would mean that Calgary NDP voters would likely end up being represented by Edmontonians, though.
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Nov 2, 2015 05:54
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Cultural Imperial posted:
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Nov 2, 2015 05:57
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Ladies and Gentlemen, your honourable CF, defenders of freedom and Canada's first line of defence against human indignity
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Nov 2, 2015 05:58
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I'm cross-posting this from the debt bubble thread, because it's too gold to not do so: Guys, guys guys guys (girls?) This is loving HILARIOUS: http://globalnews.ca/news/2112350/ghost-town-of-bradian-b-c-back-on-the-market/Ghost town of Bradian, B.C. back on the market But gently caress the whole article, this is the GOLD: quote:The China Zhong Ya Group Hebei Canada-China Co. bought the 20-hectare town for just under a million dollars last year, and Mills says they were planning on bringing more investors on board through the Provincial Nominee Program. The program allowed people to immigrate to B.C. if they invested enough money in a business and could create jobs. quote:“Part of the setup was we’re going to rebuild the town into the heritage condition. You would bring a person to run a motel, build houses, a convenience store, a bunch of specialty shops…and all of those people could invest and get the eventual profits.” They bought a ghost town in the middle of loving nowhere to try and import rich immigrants from China en-masse via a token "investment" in the business. Holy. loving. poo poo. How is this a bit piece on fuckin' global and not a front page scandal in the G&M. It's the most outrageous thing I've seen them try so far.   
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Nov 2, 2015 06:11
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An excess of applicants? To start up doomed businesses in some ghost town with no customers? They're just going to declare bankruptcy and call it the cost of i-- ooooooooooh I get it now
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Nov 2, 2015 06:21
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Excess of applicants for the foreign investor visa, otherwise known as "buying Canadian citizenship". These guys were planning to turn a ghost town into a passport-mill by abusing that system.
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Nov 2, 2015 06:24
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