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I didn't have a problem with that episode but now I hate it for making this thread suck. 
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Nov 2, 2015 20:22
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I've been late watching this because of work. That episode was loving awful. Poor Capaldi looked so unegaged by the entire affair. Good lord.
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Nov 2, 2015 20:27
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MrL_JaKiri posted:If he didn't intend an abortion metaphor in the episode then he's a moron because there was one. 
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Nov 2, 2015 20:31
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Bloody Zygons. Coming here, taking our jobs. Terrorists, the lot of them.
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Nov 2, 2015 21:30
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Note that this appears when they DON'T detonate the moon.
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Nov 2, 2015 21:45
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MrL_JaKiri posted:In Warriors of the Deep every single individual (silurian or human) that appears dies, except the TARDIS crew. In Caves of Androzani, I believe every single character except for Peri and one secretary (who just walks off screen and is never seen again) die. Including the Doctor!
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Nov 2, 2015 21:50
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DoctorWhat posted:Note that this appears when they DON'T detonate the moon. Phew that completely changes the anti-abortion theme good work everyone
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Nov 2, 2015 22:02
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Paladinus posted:Bloody Zygons. Coming here, taking our jobs. Terrorists, the lot of them. An actual promo image.
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Nov 2, 2015 22:11
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You realise that joke was at the expense of the racists, right?
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Nov 2, 2015 22:26
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I didn't care for that episode. Jakiri put it extremely well about the immigration stuff, so instead of talking about that I'll talk about how poo poo UNIT are these days. Kate Stewart is a terrible boring character (hey everyone remember my dad!) and none of her flunkies are interesting at all. There's nothing as unwatchably bad as Lee Evans' UNIT scientist from that bus episode, so I guess it could be worse, but I just do not give a gently caress about these people. The strength of the old UNIT was the characters, and their interactions with the Doctor and friends. It wasn't just an excuse for the showrunners to play with military toys. Pertwee era UNIT, despite dealing with insane extraterrestrial threats all the time, felt so grounded in comparison. As a group they felt like the British army, or at least like a tv version of the British army. Modern UNIT feels like a pound shop version of SHIELD from the Marvel movies.
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Nov 2, 2015 22:31
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cargohills posted:You realise that joke was at the expense of the racists, right? It's not paranoia, if it's real.
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Nov 2, 2015 22:43
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Osgood is such a poo poo character. And are they glossing over the fact that the Osgoods knew which of them was real because of the inhaler?
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Nov 2, 2015 22:44
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cargohills posted:You realise that joke was at the expense of the racists, right? Yeah, that's the kind of thing that the right wingers in the audience (such as they may be) will go "This programme is clearly too fluffy and biased" about, because they have internalised the primary, right wing, theme. marktheando is pretty spot on about UNIT, it's just dull. There's two characters - the Brig, who is a character vacuum, and Osgood, who exists primarily as a cosplay fan-insert. Go back to the original version of UNIT and you had a UNIT that felt extremely integrated into the world - talk of the bosses in Geneva, working with the regular military and political structures, the Brigadier not putting up with all of the Doctor's crap - sometimes even going so far as to be an anti-hero (again, The Siluarians). Now it's Torchwood 2.0, outside the government, beyond the police, slightly to the diagonal of SHIELD. It exists to give little moments like giving the Doctor a big plane. There isn't enough "normal" to make those sequences - and, eg, the sequence at the church - feel special by comparison. It's all too much loud noises and fancy nonsense. Which is, you know, a critique of the programme as a whole nowadays. Those of us who looked forward to the multiple two parters because it might be used to give stories a bit of time to breathe, woo boy not so much.
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Nov 2, 2015 22:49
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Rhyno posted:Osgood is such a poo poo character. They're doing a lot of stupid stuff with Osgood right now. Like they have been.
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Nov 2, 2015 23:02
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Rhyno posted:Osgood is such a poo poo character. One of the few things this episode did right was having Osgood point out that which one was real wasn't really the point. THEY knew but they refused to tell anyone else.
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Nov 2, 2015 23:03
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My suspension of disbelief with Who runs realllll long, but the church scene with UNIT in this one managed to break it. It's not just that we're expected to buy that these elite specialized soldiers would fall for such an incredibly obvious ruse; it's that we're expected to believe they'd fall for it *knowing in advance exactly what the ruse would be*. This is another one of those bafflingly incompetent turns in this episode: why would you have the same exact scene, beat-by-beat, twice in a row (the drone scene and the church scene) and yet have the characters learn nothing from it, no evolution or progression or subversion? Hell, if they'd cut the drone scene, the church scene could have reasonably worked (at least as far as "Oh no! The zygons have a new tactic our soldiers weren't expecting!"). But having UNIT soldiers fall into the trap knowing exactly what the trap would be *and* after having pointed out the obvious trap-nature of it basically leaves us with nothing but "UNIT soldiers are seriously the dumbest motherfuckers in the galaxy." Christ.
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Nov 2, 2015 23:07
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I don't think for a moment that this episode was racist. I don't think the act of commenting on sensitive issues means it's inheritly xenophobic. I actually thought the message was quite an honest and common sense one. Not all the Zygons are assholes, but there are some that are assholes. And their reasons, while assholish, have enough logic that you believe that they think themselves justified and not just moustache twirling evil. They don't want to hide as humans, because why should they? Then you've got the military trying to bomb the poo poo out of them, which of course is going to create more anger and resentment. And regular people find it hard to separate the assholes and the not assholes. It's an interesting analogy. The problem was that the way they went about it was so hap-loving-hazard that it came across as racist despite itself. Sure, the Doctor and a few others mention that not all Zygons are like this, and it's just a small group, and so on. And Osgood herself says that Zygons are a race just like ours, with good and bad people. Which after watching bad sci-fi for so long is such a fresh concept I nearly starting loving cheering at the screen. But we don't actually see any of these good Zygons. They tell and don't show. All the ones we see are lightning bolt throwing teeth baring lunatics. And considering that there was a direct comparison with them and immigrants. It was...problematic. I completely see what he was trying to do, though. And it was interesting. I was blown away that they even attempted it. The episode sucked though.
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Nov 2, 2015 23:10
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Someone buy me a Capaldi basiltar with the text "Some of my best friends are Zygons" tiaThe_Master posted:Which after watching bad sci-fi for so long is such a fresh concept I nearly starting loving cheering at the screen. Watch some good sci fi instead then?
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Nov 2, 2015 23:19
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MrL_JaKiri posted:"Some of my best friends are Zygons so try to kill as few of them as possible." The Doctor was being sarcastic/dismissive of the soldier's mentality obviously but it was a pretty loving inappropriate line for him to take. Even the delivery seemed off, even for a Doctor who can come across as callously pragmatic sometimes like Capaldi. Jerusalem fucked around with this message at 23:27 on Nov 2, 2015 |
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Nov 2, 2015 23:24
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Capaldi in this episode sort of put me in mind of my avatar.
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Nov 2, 2015 23:33
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MrL_JaKiri posted:
Jerusalem posted:In Caves of Androzani, I believe every single character except for Peri and one secretary (who just walks off screen and is never seen again) die. Including the Doctor! Sames goes for Horror of Fang Rock
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Nov 2, 2015 23:53
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Davros1 posted:Sames goes for Horror of Fang Rock RIP the pigment of Leela's eyes.
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Nov 2, 2015 23:55
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Davros1 posted:Sames goes for Horror of Fang Rock RIP Martha Jones.
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Nov 3, 2015 00:00
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MrL_JaKiri posted:Phew that completely changes the anti-abortion theme good work everyone There was no abortion but that doesn't mean there is an anti-abortion message in the episode. If anything there is a pro-choice theme because the women/ a woman made the choice, not a man, and it's completely legitimate to not have an abortion because that's what pro-choice is all about. If you want you can even read Clara ignoring what the whole population if Earth voted for as an allusion to the idea that only the woman can decide and no one else. saucerman fucked around with this message at 00:45 on Nov 3, 2015 |
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Nov 3, 2015 00:42
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saucerman posted:If you want you can even read Clara ignoring what the whole population if Earth voted for as an allusion to the idea that only the woman can decide and no one else. Just as equally though, you can read that the two "outsiders" are the ones who ultimately make the final choice, overriding the wishes of the only actual representative physically present of the "body" that was at risk. Basically you can read it a lot of ways! Jerusalem fucked around with this message at 00:56 on Nov 3, 2015 |
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Nov 3, 2015 00:50
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Jerusalem posted:Basically you can read it a lot of ways! I think all right thinking people in this country are sick and tired of being told that ordinary, decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I'm certainly not! And I'm sick and tired of being told that I am.
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Nov 3, 2015 00:55
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I loving hate Kill The Moon's stupid confused muddled abortion bullshit. It's the single worst kind of message- incoherent and possibly not even intentional. You can read it so many different ways that it's utterly pointless and just really awful writing.
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Nov 3, 2015 00:59
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CobiWann posted:I think all right thinking people in this country are sick and tired of being told that ordinary, decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I'm certainly not! And I'm sick and tired of being told that I am. Somewhere Sylvester McCoy just sat up straight in his chair, rubbed his hands together and got ready to get in some chessmastering.
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Nov 3, 2015 00:59
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Jerusalem posted:Basically you can read it a lot of ways! Most importantly, though, nobody takes the opinion of the mother space chicken into consideration. What a bunch of assholes.
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Nov 3, 2015 01:04
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Jerusalem posted:In Caves of Androzani, I believe every single character except for Peri and one secretary (who just walks off screen and is never seen again) die. Including the Doctor! In fact, in true Robert Holmes fashion, she backstabs her boss and seizes all his assets at the end. The way everything ties up so neatly (and brutally) despite the complexity is one of the amazing things about that episode. (spoilered because it's obviously been too long since you've seen it.  )
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Nov 3, 2015 01:04
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I was gonna pop in and ask if this show has improved at all since the end of the eleventh doctor's run but judging by the last page it really hasn't changed at all.
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Nov 3, 2015 01:14
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Cyberbird posted:I was gonna pop in and ask if this show has improved at all since the end of the eleventh doctor's run but judging by the last page it really hasn't changed at all. The season has been pretty solid/good (if unspectacular) up to the latest episode which was really bad. Season 8 was really good.
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Nov 3, 2015 01:16
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Wikipedia posted:Critical Reception I have honestly never felt so out of lockstep with popular consensus. I feel like I watched a completely different episode, and nearly all of my friends I've talked to about this episode hated it mostly for its anvil nature but also for the bad writing. 
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Nov 3, 2015 01:26
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Cyberbird posted:I was gonna pop in and ask if this show has improved at all since the end of the eleventh doctor's run but judging by the last page it really hasn't changed at all. CobiWann posted:I have honestly never felt so out of lockstep with popular consensus. I feel like I watched a completely different episode, and nearly all of my friends I've talked to about this episode hated it mostly for its anvil nature but also for the bad writing. No, it is the children who are wrong.
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Nov 3, 2015 01:31
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The stand-off scene outside the Church being praised in particular really leaves me surprised, because I thought that scene was so terribly done. Also, as I keep saying, even ignoring the refugee/ISIS stuff, I thought that the story was really bad structurally with poor characterization and no real sense of narrative flow. I feel it was just a bad episode in general and though I can fully understand people disagreeing with me on that and liking it/enjoying it, the idea that it has a perfect score of 100% from critics is just baffling.
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Nov 3, 2015 01:36
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It was my least favourite so far this season, but I wasn't about to call it A Bad Episode.
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Nov 3, 2015 01:37
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CobiWann posted:I have honestly never felt so out of lockstep with popular consensus. I feel like I watched a completely different episode, and nearly all of my friends I've talked to about this episode hated it mostly for its anvil nature but also for the bad writing. I suppose this means Peter Harness will be back.
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Nov 3, 2015 02:24
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Random Stranger posted:I think the real question here is if Talons is more racist than The Celestial Toymaker. I remember to this day the moment I found out a couple years ago that the "Celestial" Toymaker wasn't referring to some sort of Space Toymaker, but the Al Swearingen style name for Chinese, and that his Mandarin costume wasn't just a random costuming choice and I was like  "Wow, that is incredibly racist."  I had just never made the connection before, and now I can never unsee it.
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Nov 3, 2015 02:30
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I do think it was absolutely an effective episode, even though I have some lingering doubts as to how well the follow-up is going to pivot on the racial issues. When was the last time we had a globe-hopping political thriller? Enemy of the World?
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Nov 3, 2015 02:32
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Astroman posted:I remember to this day the moment I found out a couple years ago that the "Celestial" Toymaker wasn't referring to some sort of Space Toymaker, but the Al Swearingen style name for Chinese, and that his Mandarin costume wasn't just a random costuming choice and I was like Guess who only just figured this out right now 
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Nov 3, 2015 02:43
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