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trapped mouse posted:The big problem is that we're seeing these populations as non-white. yeah. but the GOP is to loving bigoted and stupid to actually court hispanics properly. To the GOP they are just the southern boogeyman when they bored of using muslims and education.
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Nov 2, 2015 20:56
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icantfindaname posted:white ethnic catholics who immigrated in the 1800s are still significantly more Democratic than their native WASP counterparts, and that's been fading for 150 years. hispanics will not be anywhere close to equally R as non-hispanic whites within my or your lifetime. and as for black people, lol Well, a lot of these immigrants moved to states like Massachusetts, New York, and New Jersey, which are very blue states on the national and local level. Hispanics are moving to these states, but are also overwhelmingly moving to very red states like Texas and Arizona. Now, obviously the American South has a rather large black population, but Hispanics are a lot more likely to eventually assimilate into white culture, especially after a couple of generations. Honestly, the only group of people who are guaranteed to never be considered white are black people. I think we're mostly agreeing, but I do very much think it could happen within our lifetimes. baw posted:the thing is that they can't just turn off the racism and xenophobia without losing key demographics, especially now that Trump has broken the dog whistle Dapper_Swindler posted:yeah. but the GOP is to loving bigoted and stupid to actually court hispanics properly. To the GOP they are just the southern boogeyman when they bored of using muslims and education. This is accurate. I'm talking about if they can actually get their party and their base in order, which in the current political climate, is a tall order.
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Nov 2, 2015 21:07
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Ocrassus posted:I think the biggest stumbling block to a democrat victory in 2016 can be seen in this very thread. It is found in the tendency of educated progressives to openly pathologise their political opponents. I am not saying this is something the right wing is immune to either, they infact say the very same thing about us 'not living in the real world', but it is much less associated with them. I think you're looking at this from the wrong angle, mainly because I do not believe that the Democrats are going to have a particularly hard time winning the presidency for the forseeable future - but that's neither here nor there. The Republican party has completely shot itself in the foot in pretty much every part of the country that is growing, by dint of being the party for homophobes, bigots, racists and actual crazy people. As such, the GOP as it's currently constructed isn't a "growth" party, inasmuch they've got an ossified base of support - that is, their base is literally dying faster than they can reproduce, because they are old  Those aforementioned undesireable elements of the party are also the most vocal, because they are repugnant and scared by the way the world changes. The Dems don't need to worry about being "divisive" against these "outsiders" because they completely stand opposed to the Civil Rights movement that has continued unabated for the past 50 or so years - and that slow revolution IS the Democratic party. Back to the 'pubbies, I feel that what we're seeing in the current primary is the result of these stark-raving loonies being the only ones politically engaged enough to give a drat and turn out, despite the public spectacle of it all. The Bush/Rubio/Kasich/Pataki contingent are the last vestiges of the Rockefeller political machine happlessly struggling along to the tune of "we're good for business!", which has only just recently began to ring hollow for the base of the party. That now being the case, we see the outsiders putting up a real fight for the first time - Trump and Carson making up the far-right fringe outsiders (aka the id of the Tea Party), Fiorina and Paul working up the libertarian elements (which basically amount to weedsmoking California shitheads), and Cruz. Seriously, the more I think about it, the more it seems inevitable that Ted Cruz will eventually be the Republican nominee for president. Maybe not in 2016, but he sure as hell won't be going away anytime soon. He's erected his own political fiefdom in Texas, where he totally bypassed the state machine by being what is known academically as a "motherfucker". Seriously, the dude totally jumped the line of succession in a state with a huge, healthy GOP machine. If he can beat the system in Texas, he sure as hell can handle the general election primary. He ticks all the boxes of being demonstrably insane in the face of reality (see his wrangling of the house that almost lead to default), openly defiant of party leadership (despite being in the party himself), and he's a goddamn sitting senator of the United States of America, which again grants him a huge institutional bonus over all the other outsiders like Trump and Fiorina and Carson. I know that Rubio and Rand are both senators, but they're a couple of loving dorks compared to Cruz, who pretty much encapsulates the sort of charming southern-baptist-ish preacher character that could probably convince the good part of the GOP to jump into a volcano. Basically, I'm very afraid of Ted Cruz.
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Nov 3, 2015 00:52
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MODS CURE JOKES posted:Basically, I'm very afraid of Ted Cruz. Nah, it's pretty easy to kick him out of your country as it turns out. Worked for us finally!
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Nov 3, 2015 00:56
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MODS CURE JOKES posted:I think you're looking at this from the wrong angle, mainly because I do not believe that the Democrats are going to have a particularly hard time winning the presidency for the forseeable future - but that's neither here nor there. In the party sure. But everyone outside see cruz as being exactly what he is, a snake who doesnt mind crashing the goverment because of his political beliefs. He is basically all the shittyness of the party wrapped up in one smug shell. Cruz fancises himself to be like otto von bismark. making short term friendships/betrayls, fights and alliances to make his political vision come about. it wont because no one outside the crazies like him.
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Nov 3, 2015 01:11
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Hitlers Gay Secret posted:No thanks, I don't bet on elections. Oh ok. Do you think Clinton will lose, though? Because that is crazy. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Nov 3, 2015 01:12
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Cruz isn't fooling anyone but his most stalwart fans. Even my Tea Party relatives think he's two faced and don't trust him. There's no way he's going to be the last man standing unless something crazy happens. Cruz can't hide the fact he thinks he's the best man in every room and that isn't an appealing trait to anyone.
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Nov 3, 2015 01:43
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Well good new guys, middle aged white people with a high school education or less are dying at a rate that's like 3x the rate of wealthy white people, 2x the rate of Hispanics and have almost caught up to African Ameicans in mortality rate! http://mobile.nytimes.com/2015/11/03/health/death-rates-rising-for-middle-aged-white-americans-study-finds.html
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Nov 3, 2015 01:59
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rscott posted:Well good new guys, middle aged white people with a high school education or less are dying at a rate that's like 3x the rate of wealthy white people, 2x the rate of Hispanics and have almost caught up to African Ameicans in mortality rate! Every little bit helps, minority-majority can't come soon enough for America.
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Nov 3, 2015 03:04
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Radish posted:Cruz isn't fooling anyone but his most stalwart fans. Even my Tea Party relatives think he's two faced and don't trust him. There's no way he's going to be the last man standing unless something crazy happens. Cruz can't hide the fact he thinks he's the best man in every room and that isn't an appealing trait to anyone. again this. most of my extended family is conservative in one way or another, all of them except for a few dislike cruz. they think he is a snake and an oppertunistic vulture or or a radical rear end in a top hat.
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Nov 3, 2015 03:07
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MODS CURE JOKES posted:I think you're looking at this from the wrong angle, mainly because I do not believe that the Democrats are going to have a particularly hard time winning the presidency for the forseeable future - but that's neither here nor there. Personally, I would be exceptionally concerned about expressing this sort of complacency. Yeah, the march of social progress has largely been inexorable throughout the past few decades, but that has come from the sustained effort and sacrifice of many brave people, constantly wearing on the narratives of prejudice and oppression. Do not underestimate the capability of easily digested political hatred and tribalistic otherisation, it could very easily begin rolling back the hard fought gains if it's opponent allows it to reach momentum. Don't forget that a significant segment of the population, though perhaps not all as virulent as the smaller segment involved with the primaries, still likes to vote republican and millions will turn out to do it in 2016. These aren't all rascal riding, free republic posting dang gummit people. Dismissing the lot of them as crazy purely via association is a dangerous strategy, as they largely see themselves as normal, hardworking folk being lambasted by pampered coastal college-educated people (an assessment that is obviously false with a cursory glance at D voting demographics). Yeah the current base is aging, but a right wing counter culture is entirely possible and is something we here in Europe are beginning to observe. quote:Back to the 'pubbies, I feel that what we're seeing in the current primary is the result of these stark-raving loonies being the only ones politically engaged enough to give a drat and turn out, despite the public spectacle of it all. The Bush/Rubio/Kasich/Pataki contingent are the last vestiges of the Rockefeller political machine happlessly struggling along to the tune of "we're good for business!", which has only just recently began to ring hollow for the base of the party. That now being the case, we see the outsiders putting up a real fight for the first time - Trump and Carson making up the far-right fringe outsiders (aka the id of the Tea Party), Fiorina and Paul working up the libertarian elements (which basically amount to weedsmoking California shitheads), and Cruz. I wrote a paper analysing Cruz's presidential announcement earlier this year. The man is intentionally pitching toward a small but exceptionally vocal demographic. It took place at Liberty University, which really ought to tell you everything you need to know about his views and campaign. He started with a story about his parents coming to and living in America, which I imagine was included right off the bat to clarify his eligibility. His meteoric rise is largely down to his generally unquestionable experience as a lawyer, it is something that he is pretty indisputably good at. He stands little chance of winning the nomination or the election, he blows too much fire and brimstone which appeals to all but the evangelical base, not enough to propel him to the hot seat. Your biggest fear ought to be the successful republican nominee taking him as a running mate to shore up their (excepting Huck who doesn't have a hope in hell) anaemic Christian credentials.
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Nov 3, 2015 04:13
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trapped mouse posted:
No it doesn't, and it especially doesn't for Hispanics who have been trying to be seen as white for the better part of 100 years.
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Nov 3, 2015 04:18
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computer parts posted:No it doesn't, and it especially doesn't for Hispanics who have been trying to be seen as white for the better part of 100 years. "White" shifted a lot during the early 20th century (e.g. the Irish, Italians and Poles) and people keep kinda clinging to that idea that it's definitely going to happen with Hispanics. Until the "Mexicans sneaking across the border build a wall!" poo poo gets settled, one way or the other I don't see that happening.
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Nov 3, 2015 04:43
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computer parts posted:No it doesn't, and it especially doesn't for Hispanics who have been trying to be seen as white for the better part of 100 years. Well, Nonwhite Hispanics are going to have a gently caress of an uphill battle, but I can see a pretty clear path for white Hispanics to be considered fully white (to the point where being Hispanic is not held against them) in the next decade or so. Arguably it's already well underway. White Cuban-Americans like Marco Rubio and Ted Cruz are not really being attacked on the basis of their heritage, and I'm guessing Spaniards, and Mexicans of pure Spanish heritage don't get poo poo on the same as Mestizos do, even if they don't speak 'Murican and follow the Pope. I don't mean to make light of any discrimination they do still face, but I think it's an order of magnitude less than Mestizo/Mulato (Edit; Because it caused a shitstorm in other threads: I'm using that term in the Cuban sense: used as a self-identifier, not a pejorative) or black Hispanics face. If Marco Rubio had a black grandparent or something, he'd never be where he is, and that's the more pressing issue in a lot of ways. PT6A fucked around with this message at 04:45 on Nov 3, 2015 |
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Nov 3, 2015 04:43
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RagnarokAngel posted:"White" shifted a lot during the early 20th century (e.g. the Irish, Italians and Poles) and people keep kinda clinging to that idea that it's definitely going to happen with Hispanics. Until the "Mexicans sneaking across the border build a wall!" poo poo gets settled, one way or the other I don't see that happening. Yes lets all post that old Thomas Nast cartoon or whatever, but give me a break. The people did not regard Irish as nonwhite, and if they thought people from southern or eastern Europe were different from them it was along lines of class, culture and religion.
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Nov 3, 2015 05:41
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SedanChair posted:Yes lets all post that old Thomas Nast cartoon or whatever, but give me a break. The people did not regard Irish as nonwhite, and if they thought people from southern or eastern Europe were different from them it was along lines of class, culture and religion. I'm sorry, "white trash" has never been a thing.
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Nov 3, 2015 05:46
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Jack of Hearts posted:I'm sorry, "white trash" has never been a thing. That's a class insult, not a racial one.
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Nov 3, 2015 06:03
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people who think mexican-americans are going to assimilate into white WASP culture in sooner than 100 years are stupid, and people who think irishmen were ever treated as badly as black people are even stupider
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Nov 3, 2015 12:13
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 Just because I ran into it at the same time this came up. Warcabbit fucked around with this message at 13:16 on Nov 3, 2015 |
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Nov 3, 2015 12:57
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PT6A posted:Well, Nonwhite Hispanics are going to have a gently caress of an uphill battle, but I can see a pretty clear path for white Hispanics to be considered fully white (to the point where being Hispanic is not held against them) in the next decade or so. Arguably it's already well underway. White Cuban-Americans like Marco Rubio and Ted Cruz are not really being attacked on the basis of their heritage, and I'm guessing Spaniards, and Mexicans of pure Spanish heritage don't get poo poo on the same as Mestizos do, even if they don't speak 'Murican and follow the Pope. Good thing that Mestizos are the vast majority of Mexicans (who themselves are the vast majority of Hispanics) or else that might be an issue. Yes, there will be conservative Hispanics that (continue to) exist. This doesn't mean Ronald Reagan part 2 is going to bring all of the youth over to the Republican side.
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Nov 3, 2015 14:01
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baw posted:the thing is that they can't just turn off the racism and xenophobia without losing key demographics, especially now that Trump has broken the dog whistle Who else are the racists and xenophobes going to vote for? The Democrats? Besides, there is room to strike a balance with the racist stuff - for example, legal immigrants tend to be anti-illegal immigration. The Republicans don't need to dump the racists, they just need to dogwhistle and cloak it enough that both minorities and racists will be willing to swallow their bile and vote for them. MODS CURE JOKES posted:Back to the 'pubbies, I feel that what we're seeing in the current primary is the result of these stark-raving loonies being the only ones politically engaged enough to give a drat and turn out, despite the public spectacle of it all. The Bush/Rubio/Kasich/Pataki contingent are the last vestiges of the Rockefeller political machine happlessly struggling along to the tune of "we're good for business!", which has only just recently began to ring hollow for the base of the party. That now being the case, we see the outsiders putting up a real fight for the first time - Trump and Carson making up the far-right fringe outsiders (aka the id of the Tea Party), Fiorina and Paul working up the libertarian elements (which basically amount to weedsmoking California shitheads), and Cruz. All of this is stuff that's been going for years. After eight years of Bush, the more radical base hadn't gotten much and had become deeply skeptical of the moderate pro-business wing. McCain tried to make up for it by swinging right and bringing on Palin, but that just gave the party clean lines to fracture along when Obama won. Eight years later, the presidential candidates clearly aren't sure how to handle this split yet, but the party as a whole has got it well in hand by now.
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Nov 3, 2015 17:35
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rscott posted:Well good new guys, middle aged white people with a high school education or less are dying at a rate that's like 3x the rate of wealthy white people, 2x the rate of Hispanics and have almost caught up to African Ameicans in mortality rate! Too bad that Millennials are just as biased as their parents, so the demographic shift isn't as much of a boon as one might hope: https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2015/06/23/millennials-are-just-as-racist-as-their-parents/
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Nov 3, 2015 17:37
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Rap Record Hoarder posted:Too bad that Millennials are just as biased as their parents, so the demographic shift isn't as much of a boon as one might hope: https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2015/06/23/millennials-are-just-as-racist-as-their-parents/ Hope does not lie with young white people, it lies in the elimination of the white race. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Nov 3, 2015 17:49
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I keep waiting for them to dump the loons of all stripes and trek through the wilderness for a while but they absolutely refuse to change.
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Nov 3, 2015 17:52
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Monkey Fracas posted:I keep waiting for them to dump the loons of all stripes and trek through the wilderness for a while but they absolutely refuse to change. turns out the entire party is loons. dropping the loons would literally mean there's nobody left to vote for them. it's like a twilight zone episode, the leadership baited the loons for decades, and then when they try to get rid of them there's nothing left
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Nov 3, 2015 18:03
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Main Paineframe posted:Besides, there is room to strike a balance with the racist stuff - for example, legal immigrants tend to be anti-illegal immigration. The Republicans don't need to dump the racists, they just need to dogwhistle and cloak it enough that both minorities and racists will be willing to swallow their bile and vote for them. I can see why you'd think that, but when republicans scream about illegal immigration what they really mean is any Latino immigration at all, and Latinos can hear that whistle better than the GOP thinks they can.
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Nov 3, 2015 19:58
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icantfindaname posted:turns out the entire party is loons. dropping the loons would literally mean there's nobody left to vote for them. it's like a twilight zone episode, the leadership baited the loons for decades, and then when they try to get rid of them there's nothing left This is the part I don't get when I think about the current state of the Republican party. Why court the crazy, paranoid reactionaries so aggresively? Surely it wasn't the only way to win, considering how much of the center the Democrats control. Take centrist positions and force the Democrats leftward, and there is still a big enough base in the center-right without the fringe weirdos. And didn't anyone know what it would do to the party long-term?
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Nov 3, 2015 22:36
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Terrorist Fistbump posted:This is the part I don't get when I think about the current state of the Republican party. Why court the crazy, paranoid reactionaries so aggresively? Surely it wasn't the only way to win, considering how much of the center the Democrats control. Take centrist positions and force the Democrats leftward, and there is still a big enough base in the center-right without the fringe weirdos. And didn't anyone know what it would do to the party long-term? make a faustian bargain, etc. etc.
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Nov 3, 2015 22:41
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Terrorist Fistbump posted:This is the part I don't get when I think about the current state of the Republican party. Why court the crazy, paranoid reactionaries so aggresively? Surely it wasn't the only way to win, considering how much of the center the Democrats control. Take centrist positions and force the Democrats leftward, and there is still a big enough base in the center-right without the fringe weirdos. And didn't anyone know what it would do to the party long-term? The problem is that the party was too successful in its lies and now most of them actually believe them. icantfindaname fucked around with this message at 23:11 on Nov 3, 2015 |
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Nov 3, 2015 23:04
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icantfindaname posted:The problem is that the party was too successful in its lies and now most of them actually believe them. this. when you feed a ignorent, probaly not finaly secure person a bunch of bullshit about the minorites/wealth/all that poo poo for couple of generations, they start to believe it. this is the result.
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Nov 3, 2015 23:39
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computer parts posted:Good thing that Mestizos are the vast majority of Mexicans (who themselves are the vast majority of Hispanics) or else that might be an issue. I'm just making the point that racial discrimination against people who aren't white (including both Hispanics and non-Hispanics who aren't white) is a much bigger issue than discrimination against Hispanic people in general. No one's talking about how we need to find and deport all Spanish visa overstayers, or anything like that. Likewise, I'm pretty sure that black Hispanics suffer a lot more discrimination, and again it's based on skin colour and appearance, not cultural heritage. That's one of the reasons that support for white Hispanics like Rubio and Cruz doesn't really prove the GOP has advanced beyond its racism against mestizo, indigenous and black Hispanics, which you correctly point out make up the far greater percentage of all Hispanic people in the US.
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Nov 4, 2015 02:29
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7c Nickel posted:Hope does not lie with young white people, it lies in the elimination of the white race. Too true my man.
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Nov 4, 2015 02:45
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My greatest hope is to kill off the bigoted whites so that the grand culture of empty materialism, atomized angry liberals, and immigrants who see the concept of nation as nothing more than a chance to earn a paycheck can start wringing each others neck when the Elite finally cutoff the flow of cheap cash to the rest of the USA as real globalization kicks in. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Nov 4, 2015 02:52
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7c Nickel posted:Hope does not lie with young white people, it lies in the elimination of the white race. Good loving lord, why does D&D still put up with poo poo like this being posted "ironically"? No other subforum would, not even GBS. Please never post this kind of discourse poisoning crap again. Also that article is yet another example of millenials as a demographic being held to a double standard, just from the left for once instead of the right. "Implicit racial bias has declined among whites of your generation but only by a few points? drat RACIST MILLENIALS!"
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Nov 4, 2015 02:57
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Dapper_Swindler posted:this. when you feed a ignorent, probaly not finaly secure person a bunch of bullshit about the minorites/wealth/all that poo poo for couple of generations, they start to believe it. this is the result. What literally happened in the US is that the Elite have purposefully inundated the native population in the US with immigrants for decades now and it's radically altered demographics in the US while also coinciding with the destruction of many white communities. Republicans may believe lots of stupid poo poo but at least some of the "conspiracy theory" is correct. Whether you think it's a good thing or not that the US has changed from essentially a white nation to what it is today is debatable, but it's not crazy. TheNakedFantastic fucked around with this message at 03:22 on Nov 4, 2015 |
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Nov 4, 2015 03:11
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Liberal_L33t posted:Good loving lord, why does D&D still put up with poo poo like this being posted "ironically"? No other subforum would, not even GBS. Please never post this kind of discourse poisoning crap again. I mean, they also put up with you saying the same thing about Islam.
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Nov 4, 2015 03:12
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TheNakedFantastic posted:coinciding with the destruction of many white communities.
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Nov 4, 2015 03:42
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TheNakedFantastic posted:What literally happened in the US is that the Elite have purposefully inundated the native population in the US with immigrants for decades now and it's radically altered demographics in the US while also coinciding with the destruction of many white communities. Republicans may believe lots of stupid poo poo but at least some of the "conspiracy theory" is correct. Whether you think it's a good thing or not that the US has changed from essentially a white nation to what it is today is debatable, but it's not crazy. What? 
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Nov 4, 2015 04:05
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Dapper_Swindler posted:What? Maybe I'm thinking of someone else but TheNakedFantastic's gimmick (or terrible brain or whatever) is that he's a economically-left (marxist?) racist.
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Nov 4, 2015 05:23
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Its a "gimmick" that has traction though. Capitalistic bosses love to off-shore production and in-shore immigrant labor to drive down wages. TheNakedFantastic takes it too far but the right person can make alot of hay coupling an appeal for restricted immigration with infrastructure spending to create high-paying blue-collar jobs. ie Trumps plan to Make America Great Again.
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Nov 4, 2015 05:47
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