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Poulpe
Nov 11, 2006
Canadian Santa Extraordinaire
Grim Fandango has a really great setting and story and is remarkably charming, but the 90s-era puzzle "solving" is really dragging it down for me. The chapter I just finished, aside from a particularly egregious "rub X on everything/everyone until it works" puzzle, has a quest line where you are given a photo of a racetrack mid race, and in the background a number of electronic signs read "Olivia, will you marry me?"

So I figure, great, I'll go show this photo to the character named Olivia, and maybe she'll give me a hint. Nope! She won't even recognize you're carrying it. The actual hint in the photo is the number of the race in it (obvious) and the fact that everyone in the photo is wearing hats.

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Krinkle
Feb 9, 2003

Ah do believe Ah've got the vapors...
Ah mean the farts


Poulpe posted:

Grim Fandango has a really great setting and story and is remarkably charming, but the 90s-era puzzle "solving" is really dragging it down for me. The chapter I just finished, aside from a particularly egregious "rub X on everything/everyone until it works" puzzle, has a quest line where you are given a photo of a racetrack mid race, and in the background a number of electronic signs read "Olivia, will you marry me?"

So I figure, great, I'll go show this photo to the character named Olivia, and maybe she'll give me a hint. Nope! She won't even recognize you're carrying it. The actual hint in the photo is the number of the race in it (obvious) and the fact that everyone in the photo is wearing hats.

I've played grim fandango like six times in the last sixteen years and I look up the answer to this every time because the answer never makes sense. This only stuck out to me this summer when I played the remastered version and said "goddamn I still don't understand this loving puzzle?"

Veotax
May 16, 2006


The marriage proposal is a hint that this is the race that killed the stuffed cat by the litter box. When you talk to the race track owner (his name escapes me right now), he says that his new blimp crashed and killed his favourite cat while he was proposing to Olivia. The cat hats and the race number are two other parts of it.

It's a pretty obtuse puzzle.

StandardVC10
Feb 6, 2007

This avatar now 50% more dark mode compliant
Pokemon Platinum: Sunnyshore City's music is awesome, but the small number of POIs are too far apart from one another, so I keep ending up listening to the bicycle music instead.

Nuebot
Feb 18, 2013

The developer of Brigador is a secret chud, don't give him money

StandardVC10 posted:

Pokemon Platinum: Sunnyshore City's music is awesome, but the small number of POIs are too far apart from one another, so I keep ending up listening to the bicycle music instead.

What did me in for Platinum was the encounter rate. Just to make sure I wasn't going insane I seriously booted up pokemon red to compare and you could make it through entire rooms without running into a random encounter early on, and it was fairly rare to get back to back encounters. When I played Platinum I could almost never get more than three steps without fighting something. I don't think I even finished the game because I just got tired of fighting the ten thousandth bidoof or whatever was in that generation.

Krinkle
Feb 9, 2003

Ah do believe Ah've got the vapors...
Ah mean the farts


The themesong to tabletop simulator is jarringly like a 90s dating sim it makes me feel like someone's going to drop a whole bunch of anime words, translate them in parentheses and then get a nosebleed.

Pocket Billiards
Aug 29, 2007
.
A couple of games I've played lately have had stand out levels that really got to me, made me want to give up on games I had enjoyed up until that point.

First was Far Cry 4. There's a mission, I think called 'City of Pain' that has you rescuing some hostages from a cramped little village separate to the open world. The goal is to free hostages and the mission starts with some hostages in plain view, so I tried to free them repeatedly until I had the right mixture of luck and AI bugginess to stealth eliminate all the guards. This was harder than anything in the game, took a lot of attempts and there was no margin for error. Turns out you can't free them, they're just there for ambience and the hostages that are actually the objective are further inside and not only that are very easy to reach and free without being seen.

The other was Mad Max. Everything is a little wonky and rough in that game and even the best made open world games tend to have funny vehicle physics.. It's like the vehicles don't deform or want to flip so they pinball around in a odd floaty way. It's very noticeable when riding bicycles or motorbikes in GTA games. One of the final missions in Mad Max is a race in an enclosed track. There's plenty of level geometry that protrudes out, so if you clip it you get spun around which pretty much means you have to restart because you can't run down the car you need to chase. It also switches to a cinematic camera angle when you use your weapons which you're intended to because you have unlimited ammo. It's always stealing control over your view and makes it really hard to stay on course. AI vehicles constantly spawn and they don't race, just plow into you. It's like all the open world game vehicle frustrations condensed into one mission.

Morglon
Jan 13, 2010

Safe and sound, detached from reality.
Just like your posting.
So Vermintide. Okayish Left 4 Dead clone I can see enjoying. Eventually. For now the game still has massive flaws like:
-Completely toxic community. I've seen people snatch up and use healing items for what amounts to a scratch while you're barely holding on next to them, run off while you're still fighting specials or are getting swarmed by tons of small crap and just be dicks in general for no real reason. Playing with bots isn't really an option either since
-Bots are completely retarded. Seriously, mine got stuck walking up loving stairs a bunch of times. Stairs. That's not mentioning all the times they just stood there and looked at me while I was fighting a boss, getting stuck on other random pieces of terrain, just wandering off and not coming back, failing to help me up when I get downed and just not being much help in general.
-The loot system. Oh god the loot system. The general idea is do things on harder difficulties and snatch up bonus items during a mission and get better loot, in practice you're likely to roll like poo poo anyway, if you even get an item your class can use and that's also a weapon type you actually want to use and forget about getting trinkets that are worth a poo poo.
-Sword fighting is still as awkward as ever in first person
-The music slider. This is kind of a big one for me, it tells you outright if you turn this off you may miss some things the game wants to tell you but it might as well not because it doesn't actually turn that part off. Fight music would be grating under the best of circumstances, it's pretty much the same three notes looped over and over and it's not just the fact that it interferes with you listening to something else, it's also constantly playing on difficulties higher than normal since it plays for waves of small poo poo and specials so it's a bit like water torture eroding your will
-The banter. Your party will never. shut. the. gently caress. up. This ranges from information you actually want like telling people where potions and the like are to the outright annoying like characters calling each other out for friendly fire which isn't even a thing that's possible. I cringe every time the elf calls someone lumberfoot. Oh yeah, the elf is also Scottish for no reason.

Having written all this I feel like I should probably play something else.

Der Kyhe
Jun 25, 2008

MisterBibs posted:

I'm nearly done with it, and season three of Sam & Max is really solidifying itself as a dragging-down compared to the other seasons. It boils down to a bunch of things, really:


- The overarcing plot isn't doing it for me, four chapters.


Really late to comment this but THANK YOU! I thought that I was the only person in the planet to prefer the "episode of the week"-approach of seasons 1 and 2 over the overarcing, one continuous plot they used in the S3.

StealthArcher
Jan 10, 2010




Morglon posted:

So Vermintide. Okayish Left 4 Dead clone I can see enjoying. Eventually. For now the game still has massive flaws like:
-Completely toxic community. I've seen people snatch up and use healing items for what amounts to a scratch while you're barely holding on next to them, run off while you're still fighting specials or are getting swarmed by tons of small crap and just be dicks in general for no real reason. Playing with bots isn't really an option either since
-Bots are completely retarded. Seriously, mine got stuck walking up loving stairs a bunch of times. Stairs. That's not mentioning all the times they just stood there and looked at me while I was fighting a boss, getting stuck on other random pieces of terrain, just wandering off and not coming back, failing to help me up when I get downed and just not being much help in general.
-The loot system. Oh god the loot system. The general idea is do things on harder difficulties and snatch up bonus items during a mission and get better loot, in practice you're likely to roll like poo poo anyway, if you even get an item your class can use and that's also a weapon type you actually want to use and forget about getting trinkets that are worth a poo poo.
-Sword fighting is still as awkward as ever in first person
-The music slider. This is kind of a big one for me, it tells you outright if you turn this off you may miss some things the game wants to tell you but it might as well not because it doesn't actually turn that part off. Fight music would be grating under the best of circumstances, it's pretty much the same three notes looped over and over and it's not just the fact that it interferes with you listening to something else, it's also constantly playing on difficulties higher than normal since it plays for waves of small poo poo and specials so it's a bit like water torture eroding your will
-The banter. Your party will never. shut. the. gently caress. up. This ranges from information you actually want like telling people where potions and the like are to the outright annoying like characters calling each other out for friendly fire which isn't even a thing that's possible. I cringe every time the elf calls someone lumberfoot. Oh yeah, the elf is also Scottish for no reason.

Having written all this I feel like I should probably play something else.

-Play with goons, the Gooncave.com Teamspeak or CampingtheStairs mumble both have people who like the game and hop in and out a lot.

- 100% correct. See above.

- 200undoubleplusgood% correct. The sooner a borderlands 2 like trainer the better.

- Eh, opinions but granted. Play with a sword/board and get used to rolling Rmb to lmb to quick bash.

- haven't had problems can't comment.

-You are in the wrong mood to play Warhammer: Bad Rats 2 Edit: Also ranged/bomb FF is possible on Nightmare/Cataclysm

StealthArcher has a new favorite as of 16:04 on Nov 2, 2015

FalloutGod
Dec 14, 2006

Morglon posted:


Having written all this I feel like I should probably play something else.

The "gaming community" as a whole seems a lot more toxic then it once was. When you had to go out of your way to get poo poo working online you were just wasting your time being an rear end but when you can drop in with ease people get to waste everyone elses. I also could just be remembering wrong after all these years though. :shrug: Doing anything cooperatively in multiplayer just isn't worth it unless you have a premade group going in.

Action Tortoise
Feb 18, 2012

A wolf howls.
I know how he feels.

FalloutGod posted:

The "gaming community" as a whole seems a lot more toxic then it once was. When you had to go out of your way to get poo poo working online you were just wasting your time being an rear end but when you can drop in with ease people get to waste everyone elses. I also could just be remembering wrong after all these years though. :shrug: Doing anything cooperatively in multiplayer just isn't worth it unless you have a premade group going in.

i've had good and bad experiences with running with randoms in l4d. if you have guys who've played the maps over and over again and expect everyone else to do the same thing, they're usually the worst because they like to rush for the objective and poo poo on anyone who gets caught by an infected or horde. the ones who are into it casually are usually a good crowd.

Krinkle
Feb 9, 2003

Ah do believe Ah've got the vapors...
Ah mean the farts


The vermintide problem is the loot. You can get 99.99999% to the goal and wipe and you get loving NOTHING. You can do everything right and roll a 2 and get a white duplicate. You can roll a 6 and get a blue gun that is terrible and look at the green sword below you that is exactly the loving thing you want, but sorry: All rolls are final and you can't just choose anything below the number you rolled for some reason.

You can grind up old equipment to make ... a slightly more ornate version of the poo poo you didn't want before. Seriously it takes five items in the grinder to at random shoot one of them back out again but it doesn't tell you this. I threw all the garbage I could ever find into there hoping for poo poo I"VE NEVER SEEN BEFORE and kept getting the same awful staff popping back out. No matter what I threw in, shields, guns, axes, only the staff came back out. I thought I had the worst luck ever. The more I tossed that awful staff back in there the more orange it got. I've got the best worst staff in the game now.

Morglon
Jan 13, 2010

Safe and sound, detached from reality.
Just like your posting.
And even if you do get something the loot seems not very exciting. I've been playing the elf mostly and was pretty excited about the poison bow because it's different but it just doesn't seem as good as the one I had before. Sure, it ignores armor but the other one had armor penetration and would go through a bunch of enemies if you could get them to line up. I'll try hooking up with goons maybe it helps but the reason I got it was because I usually play games with a super Warhammer sperg who isn't picking up the game at all because he's butthurt about end times. Go figure.

Your Gay Uncle
Feb 16, 2012

by Fluffdaddy
Can anyone explain to me why the gently caress Marle who only uses ICE MAGIC is shown casting a FIRE SPELL on the box cover for Chrono Trigger?

AlphaKretin
Dec 25, 2014

A vase to face encounter.

...Vase to meet you?

...

GARVASE DAY!

Your Gay Uncle posted:

Can anyone explain to me why the gently caress Marle who only uses ICE MAGIC is shown casting a FIRE SPELL on the box cover for Chrono Trigger?

Plans changed during design. There's a concept mock-up of it happening in game, give me a bit to look through Quovak's LP.
E:

Aphrodite
Jun 27, 2006

Your Gay Uncle posted:

Can anyone explain to me why the gently caress Marle who only uses ICE MAGIC is shown casting a FIRE SPELL on the box cover for Chrono Trigger?

It's the ultimate ice technique, Freezer Burn.

Leave
Feb 7, 2012

Taking the term "Koopaling" to a whole new level since 2016.

Aphrodite posted:

It's the ultimate ice technique, Freezer Burn.



In the DS extra content, you can pretty well recreate the box art, barring the costume Marle is wearing in the box art.

Aphrodite
Jun 27, 2006

Finlanded the poo poo out of that snow beast.

The Moon Monster
Dec 30, 2005

Krinkle posted:

The vermintide problem is the loot. You can get 99.99999% to the goal and wipe and you get loving NOTHING. You can do everything right and roll a 2 and get a white duplicate. You can roll a 6 and get a blue gun that is terrible and look at the green sword below you that is exactly the loving thing you want, but sorry: All rolls are final and you can't just choose anything below the number you rolled for some reason.

I feel like randomized loot makes 90% of the games it's added to worse. It works well in ARPGs (if done well) but in most other games that have it it's just a huge pain in the rear end.

Like Darksiders 2, I would have vastly preferred if I just unlocked [subweapon A] by running a dungeon. Instead you get 5 of them that drop randomly and one has 100 attack, another has 90 attack and +5% crit, another adds fire damage etc. I'd rather just not have to think about stats and tedious inventory management at all in a game like that.

MisterBibs
Jul 17, 2010

dolla dolla
bill y'all
Fun Shoe
In Farm Simulator 2015, one of the best ways of making money is by creating silage. You do this by cutting grass and taking it to a special building, where you dump/cover it, wait, and then pick it up and sell it.

The problem is that the Special Building is incredibly bugged, and was designed poorly. I've had two different bugs, with two different solutions:

- The Pile Of Silage spawns too low to actually be scooped up by your machine. This requires you to open up your map in the surprisingly-unintuitive level editor and telling it the correct coordinates for the Pile Of Silage for the map, since the developers used another map's coordinates and didn't bother to notice it. To

- The amount of silage in the Pile Of Silage isn't tracked properly. There's two variations of this, either it tells you there's a ton of silage in a visually-empty place, or there's an infinitesimal amount. You have to open your save file (entitled vehicles.something, of course) and manually tell the game that there's no silage in the pile. The last time I did this, the Pile Of Silage was less than .00000005 of a unit, rounded up to 1.

Horrible Smutbeast
Sep 2, 2011
In League of Legends the dev's said that all the shooty type characters feel the exact same when you play them all. There's no difference in playstyles if you pick gruffshootyman or prettyboyshootyman, the skills still feel too similar and there's not enough difference. So they've decided to fix this by not changing it so every shootyman hasving almost identical skills to each other, instead they've just changed the basic right click attacks so some characters play little reloading minigames.

:downsbravo:

Horrible Smutbeast has a new favorite as of 09:36 on Nov 3, 2015

Jobbo_Fett
Mar 7, 2014

Slava Ukrayini

Clapping Larry

Horrible Smutbeast posted:

In League of Legends the dev's said that all the shooty type characters feel the exact same when you play them all. There's no difference in playstyles if you pick gruffshootyman or prettyboyshootyman, the skills still feel too similar and there's not enough difference. So they've decided to fix this by not changing it so every shootyman has almost identical skills to each other, instead they've just changed the basic right click attacks so some characters play little reloading minigames.

:downsbravo:

Someone needs to get to work on a Gears of War moba. All thats missing is a cover mechanic, which they can just rip from company of heroes.


As for LoL, I wish heroes cost less over time. Just thinking of all the heroes im missing makes me a little sad. :(

Horrible Smutbeast
Sep 2, 2011

Jobbo_Fett posted:

Someone needs to get to work on a Gears of War moba. All thats missing is a cover mechanic, which they can just rip from company of heroes.


As for LoL, I wish heroes cost less over time. Just thinking of all the heroes im missing makes me a little sad. :(

That actually sounds really fun and tactical. It'd basically be the top down tactical war games but with everyone playing a character moba style. It would be way more teamwork dependent and the genre probably wouldn't bring in the lovely 14 year olds or flabby college students.

poo poo. I need to find out if someone's made this already now.

RPATDO_LAMD
Mar 22, 2013

🐘🪠🍆

Jobbo_Fett posted:

As for LoL, I wish heroes cost less over time. Just thinking of all the heroes im missing makes me a little sad. :(

You might want to try out Dota 2. It's a pretty similar game, but all the heroes are unlocked from the start and there are no runes or summoner levels to grind for. (Although you still need a certain amount of playtime to do ranked mode.) Valve makes all their money from selling cosmetics/skins instead.

Just don't read the Dota thread in Games, it's terrible.

Away all Goats
Jul 5, 2005

Goose's rebellion

RPATDO_LAMD posted:

Just don't play Dota Games, they're terrible.

I fixed that for you.

RPATDO_LAMD
Mar 22, 2013

🐘🪠🍆

Away all Goats posted:

I fixed that for you.

Actually also true. Every game in the genre seems to inspire its players to be the worst humans they can be.

But once you start, the game owns your soul and you can never stop.

Strom Cuzewon
Jul 1, 2010

RPATDO_LAMD posted:

Actually also true. Every game in the genre seems to inspire its players to be the worst humans they can be.

But once you start, the game owns your soul and you can never stop.

When you tell your teammates "gently caress this bullshit, I'm gonna go play dark souls" and still come back the next day, you know you have an unhealthy relationship with it

Taeke
Feb 2, 2010


Back when I still played LoL, years ago, /ignore all at the startbof every match worked pretty well.

Gitro
May 29, 2013
In Kotor2, changing the difficulty to Difficult raises the DC for skill checks. Skills are capped based on character level, and early game it makes some checks outright impossible. Later on you'll probably have enough equipment that it doesn't matter, but even then it's easier to just lower the difficulty a step rather than shuffle equipment around. Also AI characters don't give a single gently caress about running through mines.

But then I get to run around twirling my space swords so it's not all bad.

RyokoTK
Feb 12, 2012

I am cool.
Median XL is a pretty cool mod for Diablo 2. Adds an absolute ton of content and reworks the game to be a really fun progression through the three difficulties, with some challenges along the way and a ton of end-game content.

That end-game content sucks rear end and is extremely over-reliant on instant kills (in a game absolutely not balanced around instant kills), invincible enemies, and super-strong enemies that can shoot you from off-screen.

Leveling to 120 is really fun, but that's the first third of character progression; the rest of the time is spent doing the garbage uber-quests that suck to get charms to make yourself more powerful so you can do the other garbage uber-quests.

Nuebot
Feb 18, 2013

The developer of Brigador is a secret chud, don't give him money
So in KOTOR2 there's a great segment where your main character gets kidnapped and you're forced to play as three arbitrary characters and you have to fight a gauntlet of hard enemies. If you didn't build up those three characters, one of which you literally just get about five minutes earlier, you're hosed and this is nearly unwinnable. I just gave up because the enemies in this hallway were stunning all three of my characters in one hit each and doing 90% of their HP per attack. There's no warning this happens either so gently caress you if you save after the character switch, your game is now unwinnable.

Breetai
Nov 6, 2005

🥄Mah spoon is too big!🍌

Nuebot posted:

So in KOTOR2 there's a great segment where your main character gets kidnapped and you're forced to play as three arbitrary characters and you have to fight a gauntlet of hard enemies. If you didn't build up those three characters, one of which you literally just get about five minutes earlier, you're hosed and this is nearly unwinnable. I just gave up because the enemies in this hallway were stunning all three of my characters in one hit each and doing 90% of their HP per attack. There's no warning this happens either so gently caress you if you save after the character switch, your game is now unwinnable.

Even characters that don't accompany you on missions have rough xp parity so you can just level them like two dozen times immediately upon assuming control of them even if you've literally never used them in battle.

Nuebot
Feb 18, 2013

The developer of Brigador is a secret chud, don't give him money
That doesn't make them good though. I don't ever use the other two characters it sticks you with so I'd never planned out a specifically good build for them. The AI controlled characters die instantly, the one I control gets murdered the second the stunning instant death melee monsters show up. :shrug: there doesn't seem to be anything I can do other than restart and keep in mind that one day I'll have to use two characters I'd otherwise never use.

Jobbo_Fett
Mar 7, 2014

Slava Ukrayini

Clapping Larry

RyokoTK posted:

Median XL is a pretty cool mod for Diablo 2. Adds an absolute ton of content and reworks the game to be a really fun progression through the three difficulties, with some challenges along the way and a ton of end-game content.

That end-game content sucks rear end and is extremely over-reliant on instant kills (in a game absolutely not balanced around instant kills), invincible enemies, and super-strong enemies that can shoot you from off-screen.

Leveling to 120 is really fun, but that's the first third of character progression; the rest of the time is spent doing the garbage uber-quests that suck to get charms to make yourself more powerful so you can do the other garbage uber-quests.

Median XL is a pretty cool idea for a cool mod, but the execution is terrible. Every class I played (3 or 4) eventually all devolved into using the most overpowered skills just to get by. Some classes are still hampered by lovely maps (I'm looking at you, caves of Act 2), which admittedly isn't the mods fault.

I can't remember how far I got, but I mostly stalled out when dying would effectively require me to exit out so I could get back to my corpse without dying a further infinite times.

That said, I'm sure it would be fun playing with other people and the new items/skills/challenges are interesting and cool.

RyokoTK
Feb 12, 2012

I am cool.

Jobbo_Fett posted:

Median XL is a pretty cool idea for a cool mod, but the execution is terrible. Every class I played (3 or 4) eventually all devolved into using the most overpowered skills just to get by. Some classes are still hampered by lovely maps (I'm looking at you, caves of Act 2), which admittedly isn't the mods fault.

I can't remember how far I got, but I mostly stalled out when dying would effectively require me to exit out so I could get back to my corpse without dying a further infinite times.

That said, I'm sure it would be fun playing with other people and the new items/skills/challenges are interesting and cool.

I mean, I'm pretty sure Median is made by poopsockers, for poopsockers, and with stuff like the super-powerful charms you can get and transfer to new characters, I'm pretty sure the intent is to stockpile all the strong charms with one of the cookie-cutter builds first before moving all the gear they farm to a new character that you can run with a gimmick. Now that I am finally at that point for the first time, I'm trying to think of what kind of goofy character I can run afterward. Plus then I can spend more time leveling a new character, which so far has been a lot more fun than trying to farm up for the uberquests.

Corpse running isn't really Median's fault either, since those situations came up often enough in vanilla D2 and it's just a bullshit mechanic no matter what. It is definitely exacerbated by all the instant kill stuff in the mod though.

MiddleOne
Feb 17, 2011

Nuebot posted:

So in KOTOR2 there's a great segment where your main character gets kidnapped and you're forced to play as three arbitrary characters and you have to fight a gauntlet of hard enemies. If you didn't build up those three characters, one of which you literally just get about five minutes earlier, you're hosed and this is nearly unwinnable. I just gave up because the enemies in this hallway were stunning all three of my characters in one hit each and doing 90% of their HP per attack. There's no warning this happens either so gently caress you if you save after the character switch, your game is now unwinnable.

Yeah I just barely got through when replaying a week ago so I see your problem. It's so weird how the difficulty just spikes towards the end of Nar Shadaa when it very likely will be your first world.


Breetai posted:

Even characters that don't accompany you on missions have rough xp parity so you can just level them like two dozen times immediately upon assuming control of them even if you've literally never used them in battle.

Most characters are kinda poo poo and gear dependent at the beginning of KOTOR2 and that definitely goes for what you're stuck with in that segment.

Nuebot
Feb 18, 2013

The developer of Brigador is a secret chud, don't give him money
It's especially bad because like right before it you're given two other characters, one of which you get to pick, and it's okay because even if you don't use Atton at least one of the three can be someone you do use and have set up fine. But then nope, the other two vanish into the ether and you're stuck using Atton, T3 and the new girl.

Gitro
May 29, 2013
See, there's your problem. You didn't go darkside and get the infinite rage-tank.

You can also try cheesing it by letting them almost die, levelling for full health and repeat. T3's shock arm is a godsend, and if you did the droid quest he can have an infinite shield which doesn't help at all against the melee dudes. Also there's a droid armour with 50% energy resist, so if you're lucky enough to get that then T3 can tank blasters forever.

I just did that segment light side and holy poo poo not having Hanharr made it so much harder. No more oneshotting everything with 4 power attacks/round :black101:

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DMorbid
Jan 6, 2011

With our special guest star, RUSH! YAYYYYYYYYY

If this is the segment I'm thinking of (fighting a bunch of HK-50 robots at the Nar Shaddaa docks), I believe that was actually cut from the released version and added back in via the restoration mod. This is definitely one of the cases in KotOR 2 where something was removed for a good reason.

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