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Ocelot: Eli, you're looking a lot like your father did back when I met him. Mmm... Miller: I gotta keep this pedo off of him as long as possible
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Nov 3, 2015 07:27
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| # ? May 30, 2024 05:30 |
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The medic, Kaz, and BB were only all together, injured, and conscious for a very brief moment there. It's likely he didn't get a chance to see much. I took that line about getting used to working together in the opposite sense - I thought it was more of a, "Well, we've already been working together for a while, looks like that isn't going to change." The "what was it all for?" also suggests it's after the end of the game. There's not really anyplace before the end of the game that the Ocelot and Kaz conversation fits in, timeline-wise, since it has to be sometime when Ocelot isn't hypnotized, and it can't be before Kaz is rescued, since in the helicopter scene he clearly thinks this is the real Big Boss he's talking to. It also wouldn't really make any emotional or thematic sense for Kaz to be acting the whole time, especially since finding out that Big Boss was an rear end in a top hat who ditched and used him is a big turning point in his motivations. Ocelot's the actor (the one we're told is "living a lie") and even he is doing some serious method poo poo. It's interesting contrast Ocelot and Kaz's reactions to meeting Venom for the first time. Ocelot has hardly any emotional reaction. He doesn't even  at him. Deep down he knows this isn't the real him, so he just does his job and sends him on his way. Kaz, on the other hand, immediately pours his heart out. Metal Gear rule: if someone is acting restrained and failing to chew scenery, there is a sinister reason.
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Nov 3, 2015 07:28
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Thinky Whale posted:There's not really anyplace before the end of the game that the Ocelot and Kaz conversation fits in, timeline-wise, since it has to be sometime when Ocelot isn't hypnotized, and it can't be before Kaz is rescued, since in the helicopter scene he clearly thinks this is the real Big Boss he's talking to. It also wouldn't really make any emotional or thematic sense for Kaz to be acting the whole time, especially since finding out that Big Boss was an rear end in a top hat who ditched and used him is a big turning point in his motivations. Ocelot's the actor (the one we're told is "living a lie") and even he is doing some serious method poo poo. The conversation can only really take place right after Episode 1 or all the way at the end of the game, since Ocelot can't be hypnotized. Problem is we don't know when Ocelot started to hypnotize himself (except that it must be after the Prologue/Truth since he discusses the matter with Big Boss and talks to the real Big Boss on Cyprus before leaving with Venom) or when the hypnosis broke or wore off and how. Ocelot just says he's gonna do it and at some point he clearly stopped doing it or learned the truth, but there's really nothing in the text saying so. With Kaz the issue is that he's told and vows to keep playing his role, so if he was told early in the game he's going to be pretending like he wasn't regardless, and he has reasons enough for most things he does to make sense either way.
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Nov 3, 2015 07:36
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there is zero chance kaz knows throughout the game
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Nov 3, 2015 07:40
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Alternatively, they actually did a blood test against the real big boss. Both Ocelot and Miller would want to know if Eli was a clone. When they find out he is, they tell Venom he isn't, but can now keep tabs on him for real BB. Also I agree with everything you said about why this issue is confusing. Some of the most important conversations in the game aren't on tapes and are inconvenient to replay. Edit: and while people like to play up Ocelot's loyalty to BB, the real reason Ocelot does anything is "because he can". Snak fucked around with this message at 07:45 on Nov 3, 2015 |
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Nov 3, 2015 07:43
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There is also a zero chance Kaz can't connect the dots between "that guy we had with us in our helicopter who threw himself in front of Big Boss and got all hosed up with head shrapnel" and "hmm I don't recall Big Boss having head shrapnel," but the Kaz-doesn't-know position essentially requires that he somehow not figure this out through a combination of Mister Magoo shenanigans, nobody ever mentioning anything to him, and/or just plain forgetting. Since the final conversation is completely isolated in space and time (it's not even on a tape or anything for context), there's no way to know when Ocelot and Kaz had it except that it can't have taken place while Ocelot was hypnotized, which means only very early or very late. That's all we know about it.
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Nov 3, 2015 07:45
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Yeah I mean, you can claim the Kaz doesn't remeber due to trauma or hypnotism seeing medic with the horn when asking "What about him?" But then you have to remember that Venom was later able to recall these events, despite brainwashing and being the one with shrapnel in his head. So it would be silly to rule out Kaz putting it together.
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Nov 3, 2015 07:50
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Snak posted:Yeah I mean, you can claim the Kaz doesn't remeber due to trauma or hypnotism seeing medic with the horn when asking "What about him?" But then you have to remember that Venom was later able to recall these events, despite brainwashing and being the one with shrapnel in his head. So it would be silly to rule out Kaz putting it together. Kaz can't see very good and no one wants to say anything or draw attention to Venom's horn because he's self-conscious about it
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Nov 3, 2015 07:55
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Nakar posted:There is also a zero chance Kaz can't connect the dots between "that guy we had with us in our helicopter who threw himself in front of Big Boss and got all hosed up with head shrapnel" and "hmm I don't recall Big Boss having head shrapnel," but the Kaz-doesn't-know position essentially requires that he somehow not figure this out through a combination of Mister Magoo shenanigans, nobody ever mentioning anything to him, and/or just plain forgetting. He's got poor vision to begin with and is bleeding out from severe injuries. It's fair to roll with the idea that he could be unaware of the injuries of both Big Boss and the Medic especially not when thinking back on the situation 9 years after the fact. It makes more sense for Miller to not know until after then end of chapter 1, as otherwise the revenge plot and its conclusion get hosed to hell and back. The scene where Huey kills Skullface is key to this. We have a sequence of events shown to us where the protagonists team up to enact their revenge by symbolically reproducing the cause of their revenge on to the person who has wronged them. This scene is immediately undercut by Huey (who has no reason to be enacting revenge) missing the point of their revenge entirely. The heroism or "badass" nature of the revenge scene is stripped away, revealing (to the audience) the truth that it was just the pointless torture of a dying man. This revelation is repeated in the truth tapes, but it is the characters who have the revelation this time. Miller finds out that the person he thought was sharing his experience of loss and revenge was never there in the first place, and the person who he actually shared his revenge with had about the same investment as Huey did. This parallel collapses if you assume he knew and was just going through the motions.
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Nov 3, 2015 07:58
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Yeah Bro posted:He's got poor vision to begin with and is bleeding out from severe injuries. It's fair to roll with the idea that he could be unaware of the injuries of both Big Boss and the Medic especially not when thinking back on the situation 9 years after the fact. Kaz's revenge against Skull Face would still be totally real.
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Nov 3, 2015 08:02
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Snak posted:Kaz's revenge against Skull Face would still be totally real. Why would he share the revenge with Venom?
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Nov 3, 2015 08:09
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Was Venom suddenly not a member of MSF who also lost his home and companions? Did Venom not get hosed over by Skull Face? Was Venom not maimed as a direct result of Skull Face's actions? It's still totally thematically appropriate for Kaz and Venom to take vengeance against Skull Face together. Either Kaz believes Venom is Big Boss or Kaz knows he's not but he still has every reason to want to gently caress up Skull Face. We see most scenes as Venom sees them, and Venom definitely thinks he's Big Boss. The fact that Kaz might have known he wasn't is only revealed well after Episode 31, so there's no reason to think otherwise the first time through and every reason to wonder after going through all the Truth stuff.Yeah Bro posted:He's got poor vision to begin with and is bleeding out from severe injuries. It's fair to roll with the idea that he could be unaware of the injuries of both Big Boss and the Medic especially not when thinking back on the situation 9 years after the fact. * Not stated anywhere in the game and frequently contradicted.
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Nov 3, 2015 08:10
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interpreting kaz knowing to cover a small potential plothol fucks over a heap of other important events in the narrative and is generally pretty dumb
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Nov 3, 2015 08:12
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Venom Soag posted:interpreting kaz knowing to cover a small potential plothol fucks over a heap of other important events in the narrative and is generally pretty dumb EDIT: Also which events couldn't Kaz have known about and just been pretending like he says he'll pretend? We don't see into Kaz's head during the course of the game.
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Nov 3, 2015 08:13
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venom had a blankie over his forehead when kaz looked over all fuxed
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Nov 3, 2015 08:15
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Nakar posted:OK so it's just a plot hole then? Because a plot hole is a pretty serious issue in a story. I'm not saying it isn't a plot hole, but if it is that's kind of a serious problem. Plot holes are not super serious problems with stories, actually. Raxivace fucked around with this message at 08:32 on Nov 3, 2015 |
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Nov 3, 2015 08:16
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Venom Soag posted:interpreting kaz knowing to cover a small potential plothol fucks over a heap of other important events in the narrative and is generally pretty dumb I don't think it actually fucks over the other events though. But I haven't gone over the plot with a fine-toothed comb. I played "Over the Fence" a lot of times, and first exchange between Kaz and Venom is weird and I can't shake the feeling that it's because Kaz realizes or knows. I'm just saying, I kind of like this idea, even if I'm not sure I can back it up.
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Nov 3, 2015 08:22
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Generally speaking, plot holes aren't super important. Most works have more going on than just the A>B>C linear progression of events. It's far more worthwhile to ask why are we being shown things, what effect does it have, etc. Than it does to be concerned with "how does so and so know/not know X".
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Nov 3, 2015 08:28
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Another reason to believe it is that Ocelot's dialogue in Episode 1 reads very much like a lot of winking nods to the idea that Venom isn't BB:
Yeah Bro posted:Generally speaking, plot holes aren't super important. Most works have more going on than just the A>B>C linear progression of events. It's far more worthwhile to ask why are we being shown things, what effect does it have, etc. Than it does to be concerned with "how does so and so know/not know X". Thematically it's entirely possible to construct an interpretation of Kaz's behavior where he's operating under the knowledge of who Venom really is but unable to speak about it for numerous reasons. Given that people have at times described Kaz's behavior as suspicious throughout the game in this very thread, the possibility that Kaz is suspicious leads us to ask what would make his behavior suspect, since his anger and drive for vengeance against Skull Face appears to be (and is) completely sincere. But if Kaz is hiding things from Venom, then there is something that explains his suspicious behavior that doesn't contradict his pursuit of revenge. If he's not... again, we just kind of shrug it off as coincidence or something, which doesn't satisfy me thematically. Likewise saying Kaz knew gives certain weight to his treatment of Eli. Ocelot states repeatedly that Kaz is protecting Eli, but why would Kaz give a poo poo considering Eli is a huge rear end in a top hat who never once expresses any appreciation? "No. Big Boss can go to hell. I'll make the phantom and his sons stronger, to send him there." If that was a resolution Kaz made before he met Eli, then treating Eli with greater caution was supposed to keep Eli around to expose him to the guy he assumed was his father and cultivate his hatred of him. Which seems to have worked if we go by MGS1 Liquid. If it's one he made after then that stuff he does with Eli is just kind of coincidental and unrelated because at the time he was completely ignorant of Big Boss's deception and if any of it helped to turn Eli against Big Boss it was just a happy accident. Again, it doesn't seem as thematically fitting as "Kaz was grooming Eli to resent Big Boss the whole time because he knew Ocelot was hypnotized and couldn't do poo poo about it."
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Nov 3, 2015 08:47
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Venom Soag posted:why did ocelot brainwash himself Seems unnecessary is the answer to any MGS plothole
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Nov 3, 2015 08:51
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I think what someone said earlier is the best logic for Ocelot brainwashing himself: Ocelot is a true believe in torture and brainwashing. If Ocelot wanted to ensure he'd never give up the secret, he'd probably attempt some mental gymnastics to hide it even from himself. Also, from my understanding of MGS4 (which I haven't played) we know that Ocelote later uses self hypnosis in a retcon of him being possessed by Liquid. Now this sounds really stupid, however, it would be consistent logic if Ocelot wanted Solid Snake to be convinced that he was possessed by Liquid. In order to sell it, he'd have believe it himself. Now this is all really stupid, but if you spend enough of your life thinking about it, the crazy are starts to have some kind of thematic internal consistency. Before you know it you're composing your lore theories on the walls of your padded cell. Which brings me to my next point: If Venom thematically represents the player who self-identifies as Snake, Ocelot represents the player who is a crazy lore conspiracy theorist. Ocelot is connected to every single plot, because he's the player who's obsessed with connecting all the events of the franchise into not only a singular canonical continuity, but also a thematically effective epic. He literally hypnotizes himself in order to make the plots make sense, and he tortures people until they explain their motivations. edit: And his three favorite people are Aerith, The Big Badass, and the guy who's mad that everything isn't the way he wants it to be.
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Nov 3, 2015 09:01
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I think you're starting to over-analyze it, now.
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Nov 3, 2015 09:07
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Buschmaki posted:I think you're starting to over-analyze it, now. It's like one of my Japanese animes!
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Nov 3, 2015 09:10
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I honestly can't figure out why Ocelot thought it was necessary or a good idea to hypnotize himself at any point so I'm just going with the thing someone said earlier that he couldn't bear to be without John and just wanted to believe Venom was him while he was away doing John's work. Because if he was trying to manage things I have no earthly idea why he'd want to intentionally forget a critical aspect of the plan and he was never in any danger of being captured or tortured since he stayed at Mother Base all the time and I don't know why anyone would've ever even tried to find out about the body double thing since it appeared that it fooled literally everybody, unless it didn't fool Skull Face but if it didn't fool him then Skull Face also didn't care, so whatever.
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Nov 3, 2015 09:10
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Why would someone try to know one thing and believe another? What could this mean? Where did this idea come from? Must be a plot-hole, i guess
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Nov 3, 2015 09:14
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The anime that I over-analyse is Ghost in the Shell, which is likely the anime that Otacon was thinking of in the previous quote.
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Nov 3, 2015 09:16
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Yeah Bro posted:Why would someone try to know one thing and believe another? What could this mean? Where did this idea come from? Must be a plot-hole, i guess In MGS5, Ocelot chooses to forget about the substitution and that the real Big Boss is off building his nation in secret... but nobody is ever going to ask him about this, or ever does, and he has no reason to believe anyone will because he has a substitute Big Boss (who believes himself to be Big Boss) that he's going to make the world think is Big Boss, and he's doing this because the real Big Boss entrusted this task to him. He then chooses to engage in self-deception, to willingly accept a lie as if it were the truth - which is a theme of the game, sure - for what reason, exactly? He places himself in a situation where he now knows less than he might need to know in order to carry through the real Big Boss's orders, but there appears to be no specific purpose to doing so other than "People aren't what they seem! People believe things that aren't true! People accept a meme as the real thing so completely that it is the real thing!" being a major thematic undercurrent in the game. Ocelot never seems to be in a position where he needs to believe that Venom is the true and singular Big Boss and appears to have no reason to expect that he ever would. The AIs aren't watching him yet and nobody has any reason to think Mother Base isn't the true Outer Heaven. He says in the Truth tape that he needs to hypnotize himself, but it's unclear why he thinks that's necessary: 'Doublethink' Tape posted:BIG BOSS: And you?
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Nov 3, 2015 10:02
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Pequod is the pilot.
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Nov 3, 2015 10:09
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Maybe Ocelot is such a good liar because he's always hypnotizing himself.
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Nov 3, 2015 12:09
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Elephant Ambush posted:Uhhhh torture is always wrong no matter what and if you watched any of those torture scenes and thought "haha awesome they deserve it" then you are human garbage It was exploring the concept of doublethink by forcing players to simultaneously believe torture is wrong, and that Huey should be slowly tortured to death with maximum agony. Kojima, you genius, you've done it again!
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Nov 3, 2015 13:34
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Anyone who thinks DD is a Wolf 100% deserves it.
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Nov 3, 2015 13:40
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Josuke Higashikata posted:Anyone who thinks DD is a Wolf 100% deserves it. alternate ending to Huey's plotline: 
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Nov 3, 2015 13:46
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I skim-listened to the Truth tapes and assumed Ocelot brainwashed himself, Kaz, and Medic, each with permission.
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Nov 3, 2015 15:54
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Josuke Higashikata posted:Anyone who thinks DD is a Wolf 100% deserves it. he's probably a robot
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Nov 3, 2015 16:35
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Venom could have been the one to tell Kaz in the first place. Then Ocelot confronted him to ask him what he was going to do since Kaz sulks like a teenage girl.
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Nov 3, 2015 16:36
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Doesn't Zero straight up tell Kaz the plan over the phone in the Truth tapes? I remember him telling him the code to enact the plan is 'V has come to'. I thought this was the source of all of his 'never be whole' talk because he felt Big Boss betrayed him.
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Nov 3, 2015 16:50
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Raxivace posted:Plot holes are not super serious problems with stories, actually. Yes they are. They're insulting to the audience's intelligence.
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Nov 3, 2015 16:51
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AnxiousApatosaurus posted:Doesn't Zero straight up tell Kaz the plan over the phone in the Truth tapes? I remember him telling him the code to enact the plan is 'V has come to'. I thought this was the source of all of his 'never be whole' talk because he felt Big Boss betrayed him. Nope, he told Kaz that he was keeping Big Boss safe and he needed Kaz to be there to support him when he woke up. That was Kaz's part to play. Ocelot was to protect him, Kaz was to build his army.
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Nov 3, 2015 17:05
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Elephant Ambush posted:Yes they are. They're insulting to the audience's intelligence. lol. you loving dweeb.
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Nov 3, 2015 17:05
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Elephant Ambush posted:Yes they are. They're insulting to the audience's intelligence.
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Nov 3, 2015 17:09
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