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Grand Prize Winner posted:No but seriously, why were armored trains more of an eastern front thing? Armored trains are a thing you need when you don't have air superiority or a secure rail corridor and want to use the trains anyway, but somehow manage to keep the tracks from being blown up. Also poo poo got real bad during the spring and fall over there with regard to ground transportation, so it was either tracked vehicles (lol if you plan on concentrating men anywhere fast) or trains. or if, you know, you're British and you given't a piddling gently caress: 
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Nov 4, 2015 08:48
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Keldoclock posted:So, why did you choose to do this? I never understand why anyone would willingly choose to eat a military ration. For science. Duh.
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Nov 4, 2015 08:56
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Are these guys off to reinforce the battle of the copper mine or what?
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Nov 4, 2015 08:58
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Slavvy posted:Are these guys off to reinforce the battle of the copper mine or what? Turns out Britain has a 15-inch gauge rail line in operation and by god Jerry isn't going to have a go at it unopposed.
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Nov 4, 2015 09:04
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FAUXTON posted:Turns out Britain has a 15-inch gauge rail line in operation and by god Jerry isn't going to have a go at it unopposed. Turns out it shot down three planes.
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Nov 4, 2015 09:32
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ALL-PRO SEXMAN posted:Turns out it shot down three planes. Are you loving making GBS threads me That's the most adorable thing. That little bitty train blasting nazibirds out of the sky. E:  EAGER TO POT ANY JERRY WOT SHOWS 'IS BLOOMIN' FYCE FAUXTON fucked around with this message at 09:43 on Nov 4, 2015 |
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Nov 4, 2015 09:35
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Wait, what would that thing even shoot at planes with, it appears to be armed with a Boys AT rifle and a sewerpipe (empty Vickers mount ? The walls of that tube look way too thin to be an actual cannon)
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Nov 4, 2015 09:40
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ALL-PRO SEXMAN posted:Turns out it shot down three planes. Source your quotes. Kafouille posted:Wait, what would that thing even shoot at planes with, it appears to be armed with a Boys AT rifle and a sewerpipe (empty Vickers mount ? The walls of that tube look way too thin to be an actual cannon)  It has at least two lewis guns that could be used for AA purposes.
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Nov 4, 2015 09:41
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FAUXTON posted:Are you loving making GBS threads me So a book cited in Wikipedia claims, anyway.
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Nov 4, 2015 09:43
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Dusty Baker 2 posted:I've been working on a project lately in my spare time, basically making an identification chart of every major warship in the world that's currently in-service or will be in service in the near future (within the next 3-5 years). This is a pretty sweet project. Someone did something similar a few years ago and posted it to the TFR Cold War thread, it had jet silhouettes broken out into 'generation' along the x axis and nation of origin along the y, color-coded for purpose. I can't seem to find it though. MrMojok posted:Hogmartin, when you were going fast, but not changing depth, was there any sensation of speed at all inside the vessel? Or was it just like being in an office building with no windows? Nah, with anything else, you can only feel acceleration forces. Once you're at a speed, you couldn't tell how fast you were going without checking instruments.
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Nov 4, 2015 11:26
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hogmartin posted:This is a pretty sweet project. Someone did something similar a few years ago and posted it to the TFR Cold War thread, it had jet silhouettes broken out into 'generation' along the x axis and nation of origin along the y, color-coded for purpose. I can't seem to find it though. That sounds really cool, if anybody remembers where this post is please link me, thank you.
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Nov 4, 2015 11:34
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So I'm slowly trawling my way through Europe's Tragedy (just past the Battle of Wittstock) and the thing that has struck me the most is how much it revolves around financing - getting loans, avoiding paying loans, avoiding paying soldiers, avoiding paying subsidies promised, etc. The fact Wallenstein's financier topped himself when Wallenstein was relieved of his command because he knew he wasn't going to be able to pay back any of the loans he had got on Wallenstein's behalf is fascinating. I remembered the introduction from The 120 Days of Sodom: Marquis de Sade posted:The extensive wars wherewith Louis XIV was burdened during his reign, while draining the State’s treasury and exhausting the substance of the people, none the less contained the secret that led to the prosperity of a swarm of those bloodsuckers who are always on the watch for public calamities, which, instead of appeasing, they promote or invent so as, precisely, to be able to profit from them the more advantageously. The end of this so very sublime reign was perhaps one of the periods in the history of the French Empire when one saw the emergence of the greatest number of these mysterious fortunes whose origins are as obscure as the lust and debauchery that accompany them. While there is financing coming in from people with ideological goals, I'm going to assume people were speculating on the war (consider that Tulip Mania hits the Netherlands in 1637), but surely this would be stupidly risky. Would anyone be able to provide a bit of insight in war financing in the period (or any period), or be able to recommend a book dealing specifically with this side of things?
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Nov 4, 2015 11:43
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Dusty Baker 2 posted:That sounds really cool, if anybody remembers where this post is please link me, thank you. I think it was a work in progress last time I saw it, so all I have is this image: http://imgur.com/JbaUckv  Unfortunately I can't credit the poster because I don't remember who it was. There may be a more updated version as well. Oh, I think the same poster or someone else did the same thing with tanks too.
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Nov 4, 2015 11:55
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Elissimpark posted:Would anyone be able to provide a bit of insight in war financing in the period (or any period), or be able to recommend a book dealing specifically with this side of things? I'll take notes
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Nov 4, 2015 12:05
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Elissimpark posted:While there is financing coming in from people with ideological goals, I'm going to assume people were speculating on the war (consider that Tulip Mania hits the Netherlands in 1637), but surely this would be stupidly risky. Would anyone be able to provide a bit of insight in war financing in the period (or any period), or be able to recommend a book dealing specifically with this side of things? For what it's worth, 'war financing' and 'financing things as a state in general' are pretty closely related in this period. Wars are expensive, rulers like to do them a lot, and the state isn't doing and hence having to pay for a lot of the non-war-related stuff a modern state does. So a general book on, say, Jean-Baptiste Colbert and the French economy under Louis XIV is mostly telling you how he raised enough cash that Louis could blow it on warfare. Edit: I wonder if 'those bloodsuckers' refers to tax farmers. Basically, the king would tell a dude something like 'you have the right to handle collecting the tax for this region; get me <x> thousand livres and anything else you can squeeze out of them you can keep'. As you can imagine, these guys weren't popular. feedmegin fucked around with this message at 12:51 on Nov 4, 2015 |
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Nov 4, 2015 12:45
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I think Geoffrey Parker mentioned that like 75% of the English budget during Early Modernity went to finance wars and the armed forces. Today, the US spends, what, about 20% of its budget on the military? And that is considered obscenely much by most countries. So yeah, the modern state was pretty much founded to pay for the wars of the monarchs. They literally built a modern bureaucratic administration so they could squeeze the last bit of tax money from the citizenry.
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Nov 4, 2015 12:53
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FAUXTON posted:Are you loving making GBS threads me ahahaha drat that's nice
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Nov 4, 2015 13:11
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hogmartin posted:Unfortunately I can't credit the poster because I don't remember who it was. There may be a more updated version as well. Oh, I think the same poster or someone else did the same thing with tanks too. That was me and I did a ground attack/strike/bomber aircraft one as well:  Don't seem to have updated a lot except for the glorious Swedish flag! I've even forgotten where I was going with the color-coding, something something dedicated naval aircraft/later adopted for land use/vice-versa/'joint'/whatever 
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Nov 4, 2015 13:24
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The Parola Armour museum has an armoured train on display and a website in English: http://www.panssarimuseo.fi/kehys-e.html
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Nov 4, 2015 13:42
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Koesj posted:That was me and I did a ground attack/strike/bomber aircraft one as well: Holy cow, the Blackjack is gigantic.
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Nov 4, 2015 13:49
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Object 172 Aka, T-72 “Straight outta Nihzny Tagil Ft. Leonid Kartsev” It would seem that much it's subject, it is much simpler and easier to write about the T-72 than the T-64  For the purpose of brevity, I'll also stick to the Russian usage of the tank and leave the T-72M(1) story for another post. T-72A's on exercises. They can be identified as earlier production T-72A's by the turret shape and laser range finder, but also lacking the frontal smoke launchers. Videos “Made in the USSR: T-72 Main Battle Tank” https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HBWUyxjM0vE chitoryu12 posted:Here's some footage of the inside of a Syrian Army T-72 in the civil war. You get to see the autoloader in action. Background After the Morozov design team was moved back to their original home at Kharkov in 1958, a smaller engineering team was left behind in Nizhni Tagil, Uralvagonzavod KB. This “new startup” was headed by the young engineer Leonid N. Kartsev. The first development of this group was the “Jubilee” project, involving the Object 165 and 166. The Obj.165 was armed with the 100mm rifled D-54TS gun and would go on briefly as the T-62A. The Obj.166 was armed with the 115mm smoothbore U-5TS gun and would have a long career and impact as the T-62. Both were accepted in 1961 at the behest of Vasily Chuikov and Nikita Khrushchev as a stop-gap measure while the T-64 continued its development. Both of these “Jubilee” tanks were evolutionary designs based off the T-55 and would have limited upgrade potential. Nonetheless, the work on the T-62 tank gave valuable experience to the “Vagonka” KB and gave them resources and latitude needed to continue their own, unauthorized tank development projects. Another project of this pedigree was the Object 167, an Obj.166 fitted with a more powerful V-26 diesel engine, and perhaps an appeal to Khrushchev’s preferences, one of them had three launch rails for the Malyutka ATGM fitted. The suspension of the vehicle was also improved, utilizing return rollers and new lightweight aluminum wheels. Only three of the Obj.167 these were made. Uralvagon KB also engaged in development of a mounting for the 125mm smoothbore 2A46 gun that would be suitable for one of their Obj.167 tanks. Additionally, an autoloader was developed as well. This UVZ autoloader was simpler and more reliable than the high-performance system being developed for the Object 430 in Kharkov. Global Security.org ‘T-72 Background’ posted:In November 1967, Sergei A. Zverev, the minister for transportation machinery, visited the Nizhni Tagil plant as part of the anniversary festivities. While being given a tour of the experimental workshop, he was shown the upgunned T-62 tank. Zverev exploded and accused Kartsev of "intriguing against Kharkov again." Kartsev placated the minister by pointing out that the United States and Germany had an active program for modernizing their series production tanks. He slyly asked the minister why they were forbidden from doing so. This calmed down the argument, and Zverev was given a demonstration of the new autoloader. After having heard of the difficulties with the T-64 autoloader, Zverev was impressed with the smooth performance and speed of the Vagonka system, as well as the fact that it was already adapted to the new 125mm gun. Zverev suggested that the new system be incorporated into the Kharkov T-64. Kartsev agreed but suggested that the modification include the addition of a new diesel engine from Trashutin's team at Chelyabinsk, yet another evolutionary development of the long-serving V-2 diesel of 1939. Lastly, the cost of the T-64 was considered unsuitable for true mass production and replacement of the T-55 and T-62 fleet in the soviet inventory. All of these factors lead to the development of a “mobilization model” of the T-64 that would be cheaper (by half), simpler and more reliable. Object 172 “T-72 Ural” Development and Production Authorized by the Military Industrial Commission (VPK), the codename “Ural” was purposefully chosen so as to remind the Army that the tank had been developed in Nizhni Tagil, and not by the favorites in Kharkov. Uralvagonzavod had been assigned to produce the T-64 since 1965, so they were very familiar with the myriad problems of that design. Their primary concern was replacing the troubled 5TD engine and transmission with cheaper and simpler designs. Their neighbors at the Chelyabinsk engine KB had developed yet another version of the V-2 diesel of T-34 fame, called the V-46. This engine was chosen as the replacement of the 5TDF in the Obj.172. However, this new engine caused problems with the comparatively delicate suspension and hull of the T-64. As a result, the hull was modified and the suspension developed for the Obj.167 was adapted for the new tank in 1968, this would also provide cost savings. The second major area of the design to be changed was the replacement of the Kharkov “basket” vertical autoloader with their “cassette” horizontal autoloader. A factor in this was that the vertical system of the T-64 would cut off the driver’s access to the rest of the crew unless two trays in the loading system were removed. Kartsev felt that this was a mistake and required the use of a horizontal system. Their simpler and reliable system used in the Obj.167 2A46 project would be used here. Army trials of the Obj.172 were conducted at Kubika in 1968, hot weather trials in Central Asia in 1969 and final pre-production trials in the Transbaikal region in 1971. Production of the new tank began in 1972 for use in operational trials with regular Soviet Army Tank units. There was an immediate improvement program to fix flaws found as a result of these trials. The Luna IR sight was move from the left to the right, the radio antenna was moved from in front of the commander’s station to behind it and additional external stowage was added to the turret. This updated form of the tank was known as the Object 172M. The Obj.172M was accepted for production in 1974 as the “T-72 Ural”, earmarked at first for exclusive use with the Soviet Army, and its design team was awarded the prestigious State Prize in recognition of their efforts. Object 174 “T-72A” Development and Production A major update of the T-72 was developed by the Uralvagon KB during the 1970’s, designated the Object 174. The engine, communications suite, night vision equipment and ammunition stowage was improved. The TPD-2 optical coincidence rangefinder was replaced with the much more effective (and cheaper!) TPD-K1 laser range finder. A new version of the turret incorporating K-combination in its frontal projections was also introduced (known in the west as “Dolly Parton”), improving protection against APFSDS from 410mm to 500mm equivalent and against HEAT from 500mm to 560mm equivalent. The Obj.174 entered production as the T-72A in 1978. Later in 1980, twelve 902A smoke grenade launchers were added for the front of the turret. One particular issue however with the T-72A was that it's LRF was not perfectly aligned with the gun sight and as a result the point you need to use to lase the target before firing is different for each vehicle! Production of the T-72 was primarily based at Uralvagonzavod in Nizhni Tagil, but production was later expanded in the Soviet Union to the Kirov plant in Leningrad, and the Chelyabinsk Machinery Plant once they had finished producing the T-55 and T-62 for export. Object 174M “T-72B” Development and Production The Uralvagon KB undertook an effort to bring their T-72 up to T-80B standard, at least in terms of armor protection but ended up surpassing the T-80B in a number of ways. A new laminate armor package (known as Super Dolly Parton in the west) was added to the turret front. This armor upgrade also added a substantial three tons to the weight of the vehicle, mandating an upgrade to the engine in the form of the V-84. At first the 902A smoke launchers were mounted on the turret front, but were soon moved in order to allow the fitting of Kontakt-1 ERA to the turret front. Kontakt-1 was fitted to the T-72BV and the T-72AV. The aforementioned turret upgrade was the thickest and most effective of any soviet vehicle, including that of the concurrent T-80B, second only to the protection offered by the T-80U (but was much cheaper than the latter!). This new armor package was designed to defend best against the threat posed by HEAT warheads, providing an impressive 950mm equivalent against it. However it was only a modest 520mm equivalent against APFSDS rounds. Further details about the turret can be found here: http://tankandafvnews.com/2015/06/12/t-72b-turret-armor-exposed/ Another addition to the tank was the new 1K13 laser designator sight needed for the new “Svir” gun-tube launched missile. The Svir is a laser beam-riding missile that extends the range of gun out to 5km and can reportedly penetrate over 700mm of armor. This updated version of the tank entered production as the T-72B and T-72B1 (which lacks the 1K13 LDS) in 1985. The T-72B went on to provide the basis of the T-90 line of tanks. _________________________________________________________________________ Also found and imgur album full of auto-loader gifs: http://imgur.com/gallery/TBEsN Edit: just found this youtube for the T-72B as well: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uTGM1n8CYyQ Xerxes17 fucked around with this message at 14:41 on Nov 4, 2015 |
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Nov 4, 2015 14:33
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100 Years Ago Thank God, Third Isonzo is finally over. In Greece, the King's preferred prime minister is voted down by Parliament and Flora Sandes finds transport (of a sort) into Serbia, where things still suck. Lord Kitchener tries to preserve the Gallipoli campaign by politcking behind General Monro's back, the War Committee begins getting out of control only 48 hours after its formation, and Louis Barthas's attempt to asphyxiate himself fails miserably.
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Nov 4, 2015 16:07
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I have to say, I'm curious who actually commissioned and wrote the official Austro-Hungarian history of the war given the Austro-Hungarian Empire itself ceased to exist at the end of it.
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Nov 4, 2015 16:17
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Elissimpark posted:So I'm slowly trawling my way through Europe's Tragedy (just past the Battle of Wittstock) and the thing that has struck me the most is how much it revolves around financing - getting loans, avoiding paying loans, avoiding paying soldiers, avoiding paying subsidies promised, etc. The fact Wallenstein's financier topped himself when Wallenstein was relieved of his command because he knew he wasn't going to be able to pay back any of the loans he had got on Wallenstein's behalf is fascinating. This book is exactly what you're looking for http://www.amazon.com/The-Business-War-Enterprise-Revolution/dp/0521735580 , read it recently and it really goes into detail how the wars were financed and mercenaries were used.
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Nov 4, 2015 16:29
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Lord Tywin posted:This book is exactly what you're looking for http://www.amazon.com/The-Business-War-Enterprise-Revolution/dp/0521735580 , read it recently and it really goes into detail how the wars were financed and mercenaries were used. I imagine that the use of fiat currency greatly simplifies these things. Having to pay for soldiers and their equipment via little bits of metal means you either have a great store of the stuff, or you squeezed all you could out of your local economy. Taxing people heavily is bad enough - taxing them so that their medium of exchange vanishes must produce all sorts of economic fuckery.
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Nov 4, 2015 16:59
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Nebakenezzer posted:I imagine that the use of fiat currency greatly simplifies these things. Having to pay for soldiers and their equipment via little bits of metal means you either have a great store of the stuff, or you squeezed all you could out of your local economy. Taxing people heavily is bad enough - taxing them so that their medium of exchange vanishes must produce all sorts of economic fuckery. Soldiers Hate Him - Click Here To Find Out One Weird Trick By A Bohemian Colonel To Avoid Financial Ruin! (you could always not pay your soldiers)
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Nov 4, 2015 17:04
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Koesj posted:That was me and I did a ground attack/strike/bomber aircraft one as well: That's pretty sick, thank you for this. 
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Nov 4, 2015 17:06
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Kemper Boyd posted:Soldiers Hate Him - Click Here To Find Out One Weird Trick By A Bohemian Colonel To Avoid Financial Ruin! Or just buy a ton of valuable things with wildly debased currency.
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Nov 4, 2015 17:09
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Nebakenezzer posted:I imagine that the use of fiat currency greatly simplifies these things. Having to pay for soldiers and their equipment via little bits of metal means you either have a great store of the stuff, or you squeezed all you could out of your local economy. Taxing people heavily is bad enough - taxing them so that their medium of exchange vanishes must produce all sorts of economic fuckery. It was mostly that the warlords(various states) hired Colonel-proprietors, the proprietors then advanced and paid for the upfront costs and general upkeep of the soldiers. While the warlords gave the proprietors gave them areas to tax and allowed them to loot, really heavy taxation to fund the massive armies of Gustavus Adolphus and Wallenstein used wasn't sustainable. Which is why the number of soldiers actually decreased and the smaller armies in the later stages of the thirty years who were funded by more manageable taxes were sustainable. As for why anyone would sign up to be a colonel-proprietor it could be financially lucrative as hell, Karl-Gustav Wrangel built this estate from the proceeds and Mattias Gallas built the foundation for his family to be part of the highest echelons of the Bohemian nobility for 300 years with the money he made. It was also and honorable career that could really allow you to enhance your status, like Peter Melander who went from being a knight to becoming a Reichsgraf. Pump it up! Do it! fucked around with this message at 18:09 on Nov 4, 2015 |
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Nov 4, 2015 17:20
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Clowning on Gallas being a lovely commander is one thing, but worth noting that he was successful in making a profit. Kinda like Mansfeld who had a habit of losing battles but getting paid.
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Nov 4, 2015 17:51
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Oh my god I am reading the wikileak report about HMS Vanguard and it is like a terrifying insane real life Up Periscope.quote:If you've never seen a missile compartment before you probably have a picture of a glistening high tech piece of equipment in your head. Before Captains rounds or a VIP visit it is pretty glistening but during most of the patrol it's far from it. Missile Compartment 4 deck turns into a gym. There are people sweating their asses of between the missiles, people rowing between a blanket of s**t because the sewage system is defective, sometimes the s**t sprays onto the fwd starboard missile tubes and there's also a lot of rubbish stored near the missile tubes. Not an image you would expect of the “most advanced weapon system on the planet”. quote:I was working in the senior rates mess for a week. I heard them complain about the atmosphere not being in spec. For a while everyone was sleepy and then there were times people couldn't sleep. Too high or to low O2 or CO2 levels can cause this. Around the time of Captains rounds people were complaining about being sleepy all the time. It could've been because of the extra work but a lot of people were saying it was the atmosphere. Most people onboard were using a cleaning solution which was supposed to be banned onboard. People were also mixing the cleaning agents together to create a super cleaning agent. Someone told me they made a cocktail of cleaning products which evaporated instantly when they added hot water. I had a headache that lasted for the whole cleaning period; it went away shortly afterwards. We had to start cleaning again for the VIP visit. The person I was cleaning with brought a bucket which had the banned substance in it, and within a few minutes my headache was back. I told him it was banned but he just cracked on. The product had a distinct smell, and it didn't take long before it was picked up. The medical assistant walked past and recognised the smell. He said “said that smells like Terry's chocolate orange, you know that's banned.” then walked off. Yet again the rules weren't being followed. It was several years ago. I have a feeling barely any of this was addressed. SeanBeansShako fucked around with this message at 17:54 on Nov 4, 2015 |
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Nov 4, 2015 17:52
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Xerxes17 posted:Also found and imgur album full of auto-loader gifs: Note that the "T-90" gif in that is mislabeled, that tank uses a T-72 2-stage autoloader, it's a T-64/80 basket type single stage one (And while Kartsev has a point about the driver separation, it's also obviously faster) Also, do you have a source for the LRF alignement thing ? I've never heard of a tank where that kind of thing was not adjustable and it's alignment should be part of the duties of the crew. It may be some distortion of the fact that the T-72 aiming system is relatively primitive and will move your reticle when you enter the range instead of directly adjusting the gun like on the T-64/80 or western systems. So you need to aim at the target, lase, then the reticle will jump by the needed amount to correct the drop, and you have to manually put it back on the target.
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Nov 4, 2015 18:05
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SeanBeansShako posted:Oh my god I am reading the wikileak report about HMS Vanguard and it is like a terrifying insane real life Up Periscope. The guy who "leaked" that information is pretty much full of poo poo on a lot of things, like thinking that the boat's maximum safe depth is 213 feet. The guy went on one patrol, didn't understand how anything worked, and freaked out. quote:Okay, I read most of it. I was on a Trident sub years ago and I can tell you this guy is mostly full of poo poo.
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Nov 4, 2015 18:19
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Even if it isn't as bad as the report makes it out, there are still a few issues that I personally find just alarming or sloppy as hell. Considering the amount of money to maintain the Trident system now it makes you think at least what the general structural amd mechanical state of of the Submarine fleet is like.
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Nov 4, 2015 18:22
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Given the amount of money to maintain the Trident system, if shaving on board actually could break the boat, that would be a travesty. But it can't, and this guy's inexperience doesn't turn shaving on board into a scandal. Seriously, e-cigarettes? They used to let you smoke on board. Real cigarettes, I mean, with tobacco and particulates and everything. It's a nuclear missile submarine, not a Class 10 clean room. Not shaving on board went out with the Kriegsmarine, back when you could sink the boat by flushing the toilet.
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Nov 4, 2015 18:34
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Phanatic posted:Given the amount of money to maintain the Trident system, if shaving on board actually could break the boat, that would be a travesty. But it can't, and this guy's inexperience doesn't turn shaving on board into a scandal. Even with the KM the shaving (and bathing, and washing clothes) ban was because they had very, very limited amounts of fresh water and it was restricted to drinking and certain mechanical roles that sea water wasn't suited for.
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Nov 4, 2015 18:43
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So, could they bathe with seawater or was that worse than not bathing?
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Nov 4, 2015 18:53
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Besides, the subs are reaching the end of their design life, and (may) be replaced soon.
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Nov 4, 2015 19:47
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Grand Prize Winner posted:So, could they bathe with seawater or was that worse than not bathing? Seawater leaves salt deposits behind. Multiply that by however many days you're at sea for and imagine how comfortable or healthy that will be.
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Nov 4, 2015 19:52
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Tomn posted:Seawater leaves salt deposits behind. Multiply that by however many days you're at sea for and imagine how comfortable or healthy that will be. Lol, bringing salt sores for sailors back in tyool 2015, brilliant.
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Nov 4, 2015 20:04
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