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eXXon posted:I've heard the claim before and find it plausible because some cancer treatments are really expensive, but even if it were true that dying early of heart failure reduces healthcare spending,it's a little myopic to suggest that that's a net benefit to society. ....but if it's smoking that's going to eventually take you down it'll be due to either heart disease or cancer.
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Nov 6, 2015 02:43
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Suicide is also a net benefit to healthcare spending, that doesn't mean we shouldn't have suicide prevention efforts.
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Nov 6, 2015 02:44
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Junk food isn't cheaper than real food.* Junk food requires a lot of processing which is added "value" and their prices reflect that. It's perceived as cheaper because Westerners are incredibly incapable of cooking for themselves, or else too lazy to. This makes the price issue a lot more complicated. It is, however, much cheaper to drink water than it is to drink soda, and it is much cheaper to eat full meals than snacking on Doritos and Pringles. *: http://drhyman.com/blog/2010/08/13/why-eating-quick-cheap-food-is-actually-more-expensive/ *: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/12/05/eating-healthy-vs-unhealthy_n_4383633.html (I'd find more on this but the conversation is incredibly muddled, to say the least) Twiin posted:Obesity (along with smoking and alcohol) actually lower healthcare costs because people die sooner. The cost of treating obesity-related diseases is less than the cost of ongoing healthcare and treating non-obesity diseases that will come up and eventually kill people in those extra years they live. This is a garbage fat-acceptance argument. Part of why obese people are cheaper and why they die earlier (other than the severe health issues they incur by being obese, of course) is because medicine has taken a while to catch up to handling the sudden explosion in fats. Not only are more people than ever obese, they're also more severely obese than they have ever been in history. Many hospitals and clinics just simply were not equipped to handle the behemoths that waddle through their doors or onto their operating tables. We have been actually unable to help save those people from themselves, so they've died early. Now, much like how many diseases have had significantly improved life prognoses compared to a century ago ... Medicine, being a profession where you try to help people regardless of what they've done to themselves, have made significant strides in treating the obese. They will live longer and longer now that we're better at keeping them alive, and they will cost colossally more than normal healthy people. Further, even if people were dying younger and earlier thanks to obesity and this made them cheaper, the fact that obesity is exploding across all demographics means that there are that many more dead young people who can't work and can't provide the necessary manpower and economic productivity to keep a nationalized healthcare system sustainable and solvent. If you look at countries suffering demographic crises you can see what happens when there isn't a sufficiently large cohort of young workers to prop up their healthcare and welfare systems. Finally, the claim that obese people cost less in the healthcare system doesn't take in account all the other incurred costs and losses to society in sick days, overconsumption, reduced productivity, and increased stress over their lifetimes. Also, vyelkin posted:Suicide is also a net benefit to healthcare spending, that doesn't mean we shouldn't have suicide prevention efforts. Brannock fucked around with this message at 02:49 on Nov 6, 2015 |
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Nov 6, 2015 02:47
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Twiin posted:Obesity (along with smoking and alcohol) actually lower healthcare costs because people die sooner. The cost of treating obesity-related diseases is less than the cost of ongoing healthcare and treating non-obesity diseases that will come up and eventually kill people in those extra years they live. Feel free to cite a North American study for your claim.
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Nov 6, 2015 02:49
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Also, at least in America, healthcare costs for normal healthy people are exorbitant because we try to keep the geriatrics alive for as long as possible even when it means a vastly reduced quality-of-life experience. Keeping your nonagenarian grandma alive another 8 months but bedridden and in severe pain costs gargantuan amounts of cash (as well as familial stress and anguish) compared to letting her pass peacefully. This, as you can imagine, skews the numbers pretty wildly when you start talking about total-cost-to-the-health-system numbers for smokers and the obese and such. The Western attitude towards death and dying is really hosed up, to the point that many doctors have resolved to let themselves pass on instead of subjecting themselves to the near-torture Western medicine puts people through. Fortunately this seems to be going through the beginnings of a cultural shift the last few years, with the increased acceptance of euthanasia.
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Nov 6, 2015 02:53
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The letter (and all the other assorted stuff like US reports) going around about Sajjan is pretty ridiculous. It doesn't mean he'll do a good job, but the guy is certainly talked about in glowing terms, not just his "military" qualities like bravery etc, but his intelligence, and the quality of his analysis. When is the last time we had a defense minister with that level of personal experience in the military?quote:LETTER OF APPRECIATION—DETECTIVE CONSTABLE NUMBER 1967-HARJIT SAJJAN
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Nov 6, 2015 02:55
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On that, the board of a hospice in Sherbrooke voted unanimously to allow doctor-assisted suicide to begin there. It's only for cancer patients, and not all of the doctors will be doing it, but it's a start that's been a long friggin time in coming.
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Nov 6, 2015 02:57
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flakeloaf posted:On that, the board of a hospice in Sherbrooke voted unanimously to allow doctor-assisted suicide to begin there. It's only for cancer patients, and not all of the doctors will be doing it, but it's a start that's been a long friggin time in coming. A good first step. Have the Liberals given any indication about their potential plans about this topic? A cursory look around Google says that the grace period the Supreme court gave the government is set to expire in February at which point, I presume, it becomes legal. Maybe it goes the way of abortion in Canada and sits legal, untouched by the government in perpetuity.
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Nov 6, 2015 03:07
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Helsing posted:You're comparing apples and oranges here. It kind of makes me think you just don't have much knowledge of the dilemmas that low income parents face or that you're just so entirely unsympathetic to them that you don't actually care. Okay, so are these parents feeding their child poo poo because it'll keep them happy and quiet, or because they don't have time for anything else? You've made two claims. If they're cooking poo poo food because it keeps their kids happy and compliant, that's a different issue from not having enough time to cook something better. Still, I don't think lack of time is an excuse. There's plenty of healthy meals you can cook with 20 minutes of prep, really limited dishes, and only a few pans you need to clean. Hell, to speak to the earlier example of KD, you could easily cook some nice whole wheat pasta with a decent jarred pasta sauce and perhaps some chopped veggies (which you can get together while the pasta is cooking anyway) and you'd have a more complete meal than Kraft Dinner. Pick up a roast chicken from the grocery store or something, if you're really feeling lazy. Pretty much every grocery store has ready-to-go chicken and a prepared salad you can just take home, and it's not exactly a bank-breaker. I grew up in a town where there simply weren't any options for food you don't cook yourself after 4PM, and there were a lot of people with not a lot of money. How did these parents cope, I wonder? Did they and their families starve because they would've had to... cook food themselves? EDIT: I'm not saying I haven't done the same thing. I ate a lot of fast food and garbage when I was in university, and I told myself a lot of lies to justify. The truth was, it was more expensive, not much faster, generally less healthy, it was only slightly less work. And that's a valid reason to prefer one thing over the other! But that doesn't mean you should go on about how life is so hard, ergo my kids must eat a mainly-KD diet. Also, if your kids are old enough to have a late bedtime that doesn't allow you a half-hour to chop some poo poo up and throw it in a slow-cooker to make soup, stew, pasta sauce, chilli, etc., they're old enough to help you prepare a meal, and maybe in so doing they will learn how to be functional adults that can prepare their own meals! PT6A fucked around with this message at 03:28 on Nov 6, 2015 |
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Nov 6, 2015 03:14
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Just spitballing but I don't think disabled groups would or should allow that kind of detente. I'd expect the government to clarify this one explicitly.
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Nov 6, 2015 03:16
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People are stupid and/or raised by stupid people and don't even learn how to use the microwave on their own until they learn how from crappy college TV as an adult https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mLn5SCRYWGw
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Nov 6, 2015 03:29
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Suicide has a lot of social benefits bros. Think of all the generations of human garbage ceos in Japan and Korea that saved not only their honour but the costs of prosecuting their corrupt asses.
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Nov 6, 2015 03:29
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http://ottawacitizen.com/news/local-news/joly-to-make-a-prompt-decision-on-the-memorial-to-the-victims-of-communismquote:New Canadian Heritage Minister Mélanie Joly, who is now responsible for the National Capital Commission, said she was being briefed Thursday afternoon by her deputy minister and hoped to make a decision soon on the controversial Memorial to the Victims of Communism that is planned for a site next to the Supreme Court of Canada. lol I'm guessing they're going to scrap that huge piece of poo poo
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Nov 6, 2015 03:35
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when is weed?
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Nov 6, 2015 03:37
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colonel_korn posted:http://ottawacitizen.com/news/local-news/joly-to-make-a-prompt-decision-on-the-memorial-to-the-victims-of-communism Oh man I hope so hard that they dump that dumb thing.
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Nov 6, 2015 03:40
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BattleMaster posted:People are stupid and/or raised by stupid people and don't even learn how to use the microwave on their own until they learn how from crappy college TV as an adult Honestly, though, if you can't follow a list of simple-rear end instructions (which is what a recipe is), what is your rear end doing trying to raise a kid? Raising a kid is way harder than cooking a basic meal! Like, if you can't handle it, spend some of your TV time watching Jamie Oliver teaching people how to cook basic-rear end poo poo with no training. That's pretty much how I started cooking for myself on a regular basis, and it's some delicious, cheap, quick stuff. There's even an entire section of his website that has 15- and 30-minute meals, and the "Food Revolution" book I learned from had a whole chapter of 20-minute meals.
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Nov 6, 2015 03:41
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Oh man some of the fear mongering going on regarding the long form census already is precious And how at the same time emphasizing that Stephen Harper didn't get rid of the long form, he just changed it so that you wouldn't go to jail if you didn't feel like doing it. Did you know liberals want you to go to jail?? They won't even tell you what'll happen to you if you don't do it!
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Nov 6, 2015 03:42
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PT6A posted:Honestly, though, if you can't follow a list of simple-rear end instructions (which is what a recipe is), what is your rear end doing trying to raise a kid? Raising a kid is way harder than cooking a basic meal! I wasn't being as flippant as it looked when I said that there are a lot of stupid people out there. A lot of people can figure out how to make babies on their own (we evolved to be pretty good at that), but probably couldn't follow the instructions to make a box of Hamburger Helper on their own because they don't know how to work a stove to brown the beef.
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Nov 6, 2015 03:48
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BattleMaster posted:I wasn't being as flippant as it looked when I said that there are a lot of stupid people out there. A lot of people can figure out how to make babies on their own (we evolved to be pretty good at that), but probably couldn't follow the instructions to make a box of Hamburger Helper on their own because they don't know how to work a stove to brown the beef. Yes, but if you can't be arsed to figure out how to turn on a stove, how are you going to be even close to able to change a diaper or fit a car-seat into the car, or do laundry, or... accomplish even the simplest of jobs? If you can't figure out how to make chilli or shepherd's pie or a basic stew, your daily life must be downright frightening because you are literally unable to learn to do basic tasks with a list of instructions (and, with YouTube, usually videos alongside). EDIT: I'd never made fried chicken before tonight, but after looking at a recipe, I did it and it was the best fried chicken I've ever had. Boy, the joys of being a functional adult, it's pretty great! I'm sorry to keep harping on this, but I cannot imagine how you get to adulthood without the ability to cook and feed yourself. I wasn't amazing at first, but my parents sent me off to uni with a copy of Joy of Cooking and I figured it out pretty quick. I've only ever made one thing that was so unpalatable I couldn't eat it, and I've never given myself food poisoning. Basic loving life skills, people! I didn't even have my promised beer, this is me totally sober! PT6A fucked around with this message at 04:01 on Nov 6, 2015 |
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Nov 6, 2015 03:54
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BattleMaster posted:Oh man I hope so hard that they dump that dumb thing. This. It's one of the dumbest wastes of money the Conservatives ever dreamed up and that's saying something.
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Nov 6, 2015 04:06
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I hope Justin Trudeau outlaws being a bloodmouth because eating flesh is disgusting and morally repugnant. Also let him subsidize chickpeas and lentils to accommodate this cultural shift. Bunny, whisper my demands lovingly into his gorgeous ear. I voted Lib. I'm his constituent, drat it.
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Nov 6, 2015 04:10
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vyelkin posted:This. It's one of the dumbest wastes of money the Conservatives ever dreamed up and that's saying something. Agreed. Scrap that poo poo right away. Blade_of_tyshalle posted:I hope Justin Trudeau outlaws being a bloodmouth because eating flesh is disgusting and morally repugnant. You crazy.
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Nov 6, 2015 04:10
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If you think about it there have been many victims of communism who deserve recognition. like a sponge to mop up all those ndp tears
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Nov 6, 2015 04:15
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Blade_of_tyshalle posted:I hope Justin Trudeau outlaws being a bloodmouth because eating flesh is disgusting and morally repugnant. The only thing I whisper in his ear is "May the Force be with you".
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Nov 6, 2015 04:16
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bunnyofdoom posted:The only thing I whisper in his ear is "May the Force be with you". That's not very sexy
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Nov 6, 2015 04:18
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Slightly Toasted posted:That's not very sexy Seriously, how am I supposed to masturbate to that?
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Nov 6, 2015 04:20
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Slightly Toasted posted:That's not very sexy Depends on who you are.
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Nov 6, 2015 04:21
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Any good Conservative tears regarding any part of the swearing-in or the cabinet selection, bunny? The more outlandish and bigoted, the better (for us, not your sanity!) EDIT: Has anyone done the unthinkable and complained about the throat singing?
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Nov 6, 2015 04:22
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PT6A posted:Any good Conservative tears regarding any part of the swearing-in or the cabinet selection, bunny? The more outlandish and bigoted, the better (for us, not your sanity!) Thank god, no-one has. Althought, I do expect to see some. I did have some on my personal FB page, from a now former friend, which I think I already posted about. Will put screenshots up tommorow.
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Nov 6, 2015 04:25
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Social dynamics definitely factor into things but Alberta's health minister is making at least $127,000 a year so I don't see what poverty could have to do with her health or weight. And honestly cigarettes, and to a lesser degree alcohol, seem like easy targets because they're socially maligned rather than any sort of concrete argument about relative harms. I mean how hard would it be to tax just sodas? High fructose corn syrup is a huge contributor to diabetes, and you can't pretend that sugary drinks are impossible to substitute for cheaper, even if you don't know how to cook. Especially given this thread's majority stance on marijuana getting all high and mighty about discouraging alcohol or cigarettes seems ridiculous. Beelzebufo fucked around with this message at 04:33 on Nov 6, 2015 |
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Nov 6, 2015 04:26
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No you see smoking weed yields the following health benefits
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Nov 6, 2015 04:29
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Sedge and Bee posted:Especially given this thread's majority stance on marijuana getting all high and mighty about discouraging alcohol or cigarettes seems ridiculous. I think all of those things should be discouraged to some degree (including soda and lovely food). I mean, let's face it, I'm a fan of all of them, but they aren't good for society and they aren't good for your health. The real question is where the discouragement should stop, and what form it should take. Sin taxes, being regressive and most punitive to poor addicts, seem lovely. Display bans to stop "power walls", on the other hand, seem like a good idea although I was slightly against them at first. Restricting advertising is another thing I don't really have a problem with, especially when it's aimed at minors. Warning labels, as seen on tobacco packages, are a bit irksome but in the end I can deal with it -- I would, in fact, support extending them in some form to alcohol and possibly soda containers. The commonality with all of the measures I support is that they do not affect my ability to make an adult decision and purchase those harmful products, nor do they punish me for doing so. I'm fine with being discouraged; I'm furious when I feel restricted.
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Nov 6, 2015 04:33
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The sin tax isn't up to the Alberta health minister when the price of oil is this low. It has nothing to do with health or addiction and everything to do with collecting money.
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Nov 6, 2015 04:41
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vainman posted:The sin tax isn't up to the Alberta health minister when the price of oil is this low. It has nothing to do with health or addiction and everything to do with collecting money. What about banning flavoured tobacco? That sure was.
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Nov 6, 2015 04:44
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Well sure but that was a party promise from before the NDP even took office. It's good optics and easy to implement, even if I don't care about it.
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Nov 6, 2015 04:46
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vainman posted:The sin tax isn't up to the Alberta health minister when the price of oil is this low. It has nothing to do with health or addiction and everything to do with collecting money. So then collecting money from sodas and other unhealthy foods would be bad because.....? E: Basically, the social narrative surrounding alcohol and tobacco allows them to be targeted as revenue sources by the government under a fairly paternalistic premise about mitigating harm. The same narrative doesn't exist for sodas, probably because they are far more widely consumed, and therefore the government can't target them as easily for "sin" taxation under the premise of contributing to public health. Beelzebufo fucked around with this message at 04:50 on Nov 6, 2015 |
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Nov 6, 2015 04:46
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 this is Quebec's minister of Health he's entirely qualified but if you can look at that fat gently caress telling you about our childhood obesity epidemic for more than 30 seconds without giggling you are a god damned saint it's like if Rob Ford was promoting a crackdown on illegal drugs
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Nov 6, 2015 04:46
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Sedge and Bee posted:So then collecting money from sodas and other unhealthy foods would be bad because.....? It would be fine but setting up a system to do that would cost political capital and take a lot of time. It wouldn't be in this budget.
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Nov 6, 2015 04:47
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Hey PT6A, have you ever done any sort of working class job? The kind that leaves you stone dead tired every night? Where even thinking of having the energy to cook something decent after working all day is impossible? Because I kinda doubt it. Because after working all day, and I do mean actually loving working, not pushing paper in a loving highrise like all the other FYGM people, odds are good you are worn the gently caress out. And grabbing some fast food or some other poo poo, just to keep you going to the next day is often the best choice. Putting more taxes on smokes? Well poo poo, who gives a gently caress? I only quit recently, but a small increase in tax never bothered me. I enjoy drinking too, like basically everyone. Still don't really give a gently caress about the taxes. And that's coming from someone who this year, for the first time in their entire life, will be above the poverty line. So if my broke loving rear end isn't complaining on a sin tax on two things that have huge societal costs, then maybe you should shut the gently caress up. Fast food and junk food might be unhealthy. People might be overweight because they eat too much, or don't get enough exercise(because they're working miserable dead end jobs that suck the life out of you). But unlike smoking, unhealthy food doesn't reliably give you cancer, and unlike drinking, someone isn't gonna smash into another another vehicle and kill a family. Suck it up, shut your bitch hole, and pull on your big boy pants. Food is a stupid thing to tax. Luxuries like booze and nicotine aren't. Edit: now can we please get on with watching what our politicians are doing, and hoping desperately it end up being positive and working towards fixing Harper's mess?
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Nov 6, 2015 04:50
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vyelkin posted:I don't know if you've put this quite the right way. It's true that regressive shitheads assume white men are the most qualified at everything.
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Nov 6, 2015 04:52
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