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magnificent7 posted:Cormac McCarthy didn't need no goddamn "said" nonsense. Neither do you. That dude inspires such a sense of urgency and terror.
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Nov 5, 2015 16:54
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Please don't take writing advice from Wendig's books, or you deserve what's going to happen to you.NiffStipples posted:I've been lurking this thread for about 3 years now, clicking all the links and reading all the recommended books. I just wanted to thank everyone here for putting up all your valuable insight. What genre is it.
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Nov 5, 2015 17:04
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NiffStipples posted:Questions! Please look at Mag7's posting history regarding his novel and take that as a guide to determine the kilos of salt you take his publishing advice with. Mag, you're totally well-meaning... But your judgment on publishing matters is pretty suspect. Skim this thread for gems from General Battuta, who was just traditionally published. You may want to take a look in the Self-Pub thread as well; obviously it's oriented towards going your own way, but it's much more business-oriented than the FA thread. When I re-up on Plat, feel free to PM me as well -- I am going through the querying process on a couple of novels and we can at least commiserate and swap tips. There are not many posters here querying novel-length work at this time.
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Nov 5, 2015 17:13
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No really, don't take Mag7's publishing advice. The second post in the SelfPub thread is a morality play about his misadventures in publishing.
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Nov 5, 2015 17:16
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magnificent7 posted:One of my favorites: This poo poo has been going on ever since Virgil wrote the Aeneid.
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Nov 5, 2015 17:17
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To Mag7's credit, he writes a lot, sticks with it, and has finished novels. More than most people. I didn't read his novels, but they seem like they are at least pretty good. With that said, do not take his PUBLISHING advice.
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Nov 5, 2015 17:24
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This poo poo has been going on ever since Virgil wrote the Aeneid. [/quote] Joseph Campbell taught me that everyone is just plagarizing the bible, anyways.
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Nov 5, 2015 18:45
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angel opportunity posted:To Mag7's credit, he writes a lot, sticks with it, and has finished novels. More than most people. I didn't read his novels, but they seem like they are at least pretty good.
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Nov 5, 2015 18:58
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To be fair it sounds like good advice and he never mentioned the company that screwed things up for him, so caveat blah blah etc.
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Nov 5, 2015 19:04
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Bobby Deluxe posted:To be fair it sounds like good advice and he never mentioned the company that screwed things up for him, so caveat blah blah etc.
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Nov 5, 2015 20:22
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No, they're taking a big chunk of his money for a service that all the experienced posters in the self pub thread agree he could be doing much better himself.
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Nov 5, 2015 20:32
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To summarize as much as possible: -Mag7 spent a very long time writing a novel that seems was actually good. -He outsourced the 'self-pubbing' to a site that parcels off various elements of the self-pub process to random people with nebulous and/or no qualifications. -He was assigned a "book manager," for example, who did no promotion at all, priced his book at a crazy high price that would never sell, and then the book never sold. The book manager gets a percentage of all income, as do all the other unqualified people doing the self-pub for him. -He had to make his own promo materials and own cover, which he did a good job on, but they were never circulated at all or anything since his book manager did no marketing. -His book maxed out at like #200,000 on the paid kindle store, and is close to #1,000,000 now after 30 days. He definitely sold fewer than 10 copies total. -If he had made an account on Kindle Direct, dumped his book onto it, and set it to go free for five days, and then sold it for $0.99 or $2.99 after it was off free promo, he would have 100% chance made more money than he did and made more sales. -If he had done a tad of marketing on his own, even a $9.99 spot with BKnights on Fiverr, which takes a total of 3 minutes to set up, he would have made significantly more money. -After we told him all this, he decided, "No, I'm sticking with my book manager."
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Nov 5, 2015 21:03
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You can't traditionally publish and keep your IP. It might revert to you after a while, if you can convince them to put that in your contract (lol, probably not). You can expect royalties of...uh, maybe 8-12% I think? Benefits: probably an advance on royalties, professional editors, professional cover designers (though you'll have less control over cover), some amount of advertising budget given to you, they can get paper copies of your book on shelves. In theory you will sell a lot more books and the reduced royalty per book is worth it. Very few trad-pub companies accept non-solicited manuscripts (i.e. you have to get an agent). Read the self-pub thread for self-pub stuff. Small-presses are kind of in-between, they help you out with some stuff and take a smaller cut of your royalties. Lots of variables here and I don't know how to find a good/reliable one. Probably look at their catalog and see how it's doing on amazon? What mag7 did wasn't a small press, it was some other mysterious thing, I'm pretty sure. I'd self-pub romance and attempt to trad-pub everything else. This place is good for query advice: http://queryshark.blogspot.com https://www.alanjacobson.com/writers-toolkit/the-business-of-publishing/ says this about typical trad-pub royalties: Hardback edition: 10% of the retail price on the first 5,000 copies; 12.5% for the next 5,000 copies sold, then 15% for all further copies sold. Paperback: 8% of retail price on the first 150,000 copies sold, then 10% thereafter. Ebooks: 25% of what the publisher receives Dr. Kloctopussy fucked around with this message at 21:14 on Nov 5, 2015 |
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Nov 5, 2015 21:08
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quote:I'd self-pub romance and attempt to trad-pub everything else. This is also my advice
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Nov 5, 2015 21:15
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Dr. Kloctopussy posted:You can't traditionally publish and keep your IP. It might revert to you after a while, if you can convince them to put that in your contract (lol, probably not). You can expect royalties of...uh, maybe 8-12% I think? Benefits: probably an advance on royalties, professional editors, professional cover designers (though you'll have less control over cover), some amount of advertising budget given to you, they can get paper copies of your book on shelves. In theory you will sell a lot more books and the reduced royalty per book is worth it. Very few trad-pub companies accept non-solicited manuscripts (i.e. you have to get an agent). Most of this and: There's now a bunch of Big 6 imprints that do eBook only and give better royalties (some as high as 50%). I'm not saying this is better than actually getting on a Big 6 publisher, but it's probably better than going with small press. If you're writing fantasy/horror/sci-fi, depending on subgenre, you might find success in selfpub, but it's a hard road to trek. If you want to try small press, I can give you specific publishers that are legit, albeit small.
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Nov 5, 2015 21:23
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There are no up front costs in traditional publishing. If an agent or publisher requires money from you, IT IS A SCAM. Money flows from the publisher to the agent to the author. Never ever in reverse.
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Nov 5, 2015 22:45
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General Battuta posted:There are no up front costs in traditional publishing. If an agent or publisher requires money from you, IT IS A SCAM. Money flows from the publisher to the agent to the author. Never ever in reverse. The money that flows to you up front is your money, it's just that when your book starts to make money, the first thing the publisher does is take out that money they advanced you... that's why it's called an advance, as opposed to "payment to let us publish your book."
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Nov 6, 2015 00:08
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magnificent7 posted:That's so cute the way you put it like that.
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Nov 6, 2015 01:40
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magnificent7 posted:That's so cute the way you put it like that. That is still money flowing from the publisher to the author, not the other way around.
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Nov 6, 2015 03:22
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magnificent7 posted:There are a LOT of legit sources that suggest entirely opposing strategies. I spent a year agonizing over which direction to go, and in the end, decided to take baby steps instead of going all-in on one or the other. (It should be noted that I'm the laughing stock of the self-pub thread, but that's another story). Thanks for all the resources! I'll check everything out and probably heed to ravenkult's advice to be on my guard  I think I'm ultimately leaning toward traditional publishing. Even though I have an Art degree in graphic design and could work my own marketing campaign and website, I'd rather put that time toward writing more books. Artwork I don't mind doing. I'm just not interested in regularly posting on social media sites to keep my web presence up.I'm aware that I'm at great odds of getting the exact numbers I'm looking for from a publisher, but I've worked too hard on these to not push back in negotiations or take the first offer to come around. I've got nothing to lose to be honest. ravenkult posted:Please don't take writing advice from Wendig's books, or you deserve what's going to happen to you. Thanks! I always appreciate peoples objective opinions. It's why I came to the goons I think my series is a Sci-Fi Suspense. I haven't spent much time reading up on the intricacies of book genre labeling. RedTonic posted:Please look at Mag7's posting history regarding his novel and take that as a guide to determine the kilos of salt you take his publishing advice with. Thanks! I'll do as you advise and maybe I'll read up on the self publishing thread once more just because. I'm, without a doubt, the worst when it comes to dealing business matters. Especially when it comes to my hobbies (technically my passion). I just wanna create poo poo and move on I came across another blog site or two offering publishing advice a while back and after reading around for an hour, I closed out of the page, certain that 20% or more of the advice was filler to boost sales and Google Adword revenue. I'll definitely take you up on the PM offer Red. Hit me up anytime and we'll butt heads.
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Nov 6, 2015 03:50
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NiffStipples posted:Thanks! I'll do as you advise and maybe I'll read up on the self publishing thread once more just because. I'm, without a doubt, the worst when it comes to dealing business matters. Especially when it comes to my hobbies (technically my passion). I just wanna create poo poo and move on It sounds like you definitely want to start with an attempt at traditional publishing, at the very least. Self-pub very much requires dealing with business stuff. The good news is that it can be learned, and it's not as complicated as it seems. With traditional publishing, the basic process is to get your manuscript as good as you possibly can, find agents to query, and do so. The agent then takes care of selling it to a publishing house and managing your relationship with them. Don't bother checking out Mag7's links if you want to find an agent! Personally, I don't think the twitter blitzes are a good way to find agents. They're sporadic and not that many agents participate, plus they seem to have a decided bias towards YA and Romance (just look at the first page of the hashtag). You can see by Mag7's post that he isn't actually trying to be helpful, as the next two links he posts are basically trying to discredit what he just said about finding a literary agent. Also that literary agent vader thing is just a bunch of lame jokes?? A sample post: Literary Agent Vader @AgentVader Aug 21 -- #askagent Most female agents take wayyyyy too many pictures of their cats. Like, Jesus ... they're loving cats! Get a life! I don't think that's the kind of advice you want. I don't know wtf Mag7 is doing, but he's not giving you helpful advice at all. Some real advice on finding an agent: To find agents you want to query, look at other books in your genre/sub-genre, go to the acknowledgments section, where they will usually thank their agent. You can also look at directories like https://www.writersmarket.com (pay site), https://www.agentquery.com (free), or https://querytracker.net. I got all these names from this article on finding an agent on the Science Fiction & Fantasy Writers of America: http://www.sfwa.org/real/ Once you have some agents that look interesting, read their websites to make sure they really want what you are sending. Then it's time to write your query. As mentioned above, http://queryshark.blogspot.com has tons of advice and examples on how to do that. Then, send in your queries and wait. General Battuta posted:
Also, expect it to take over a year to get an agent/sell your book/get it released. It's slow. * The above information has been compiled through a couple years of reading about how to publish a novel instead of finishing writing one! * Dr. Kloctopussy fucked around with this message at 04:37 on Nov 6, 2015 |
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Nov 6, 2015 04:24
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but also it's true, when you are trying to sell your novel most agents will expect to reject you after the first three paragraphs of your query letter. They won't even look at your manuscript.
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I'm gonna put out a soft recommend for those Twitter pitch events that happen now and then, like #SFFPit. I pitched my book this summer and got some bites. Out of the 7 or 8 agents and publishers who showed some interest, at least 3 of them were legit agents with legit agencies. One of the publishers was a MacMillan imprint for Australia. Not stellar, but it might pan out if you're just starting out.
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Nov 6, 2015 09:18
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ravenkult posted:I'm gonna put out a soft recommend for those Twitter pitch events that happen now and then Yeah, these can be good; just, as ever, do your due diligence with any agents or publishers who show interest. Not all of them are worth your time! You can check back on some of my posts in here for a bad experience with Pandamoon. Querytracker is great, by the way. I check it regularly.
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Nov 6, 2015 14:22
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I didn't mean to imply that they weren't legit or anything. And they look fun, too. I just don't think that if you want to find an agent, your best bet is to wait for someone else to post on twitter asking for something like your novel.
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Nov 6, 2015 23:36
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Thanks explaining these steps out! This is perfect! I've only had the time to read the writersmarket.com site so far, but I've already copied a ton of info down from it into my hard notes. I'll check out the rest over the next couple weeks. I may throw a couple tweets out while I query just to see what happens. Doesn't hurt to test the waters a little while I'm waiting on responses. Don't get me wrong, I'm not fond of the idea using Twitter to network for this sort of thing, but it's still technically a method of ice-breaking I suppose. Here's one more (possibly tough) question I don't recall this thread ever mentioning that I'd love to know. If I'm querying for my 4 book series, would it be better to write the query based on the entire 4 book series, or should I write them as one book at a time? For your reference, my first book's major plot line comes to a tidy resolution, save for a few Chekhov's Gun plot devices that are used throughout books 2-4.
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Nov 9, 2015 07:19
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NiffStipples posted:If I'm querying for my 4 book series, would it be better to write the query based on the entire 4 book series, or should I write them as one book at a time? For your reference, my first book's major plot line comes to a tidy resolution, save for a few Chekhov's Gun plot devices that are used throughout books 2-4. One book at a time. It's good that the first book comes to a clean resolution. The "one book" thing is because as a new author, nobody knows whether or not your first book will make enough sales to warrant picking you up again for sequels.
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Nov 9, 2015 15:08
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If the other three books are written I feel like they'd be worth mentioning in the cover letter, but yeah I'd only submit the one if you're an unknown quality.
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Nov 10, 2015 01:31
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Will do. Thanks everyone! I'll be sure to drop any useful tidbits I learn along this process.
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Nov 10, 2015 04:42
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Hey - just a quick note... no advice, no condescending crap. My book is free on kindle this week! Go get it! LINK: http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B015QH2U0E?*Version*=1&*entries*=0  Here's the blurb / promotional banner I made for it, (with help from the self publishing thread) 
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Nov 10, 2015 22:41
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fwiw i like your cover
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Nov 11, 2015 01:35
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crabrock posted:fwiw i like your cover yep: nice work dude
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Nov 11, 2015 04:40
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magnificent7 posted:Hey - just a quick note... no advice, no condescending crap. Congrats on finishing and publishing this -- writing/editing an entire book is an awesome accomplishment! Grabbed it on KU, so you'll get some $$
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Nov 11, 2015 06:14
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Dr. Kloctopussy posted:Congrats on finishing and publishing this -- writing/editing an entire book is an awesome accomplishment! And hey... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hjFRFtxgKig
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Nov 14, 2015 04:37
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magnificent7 posted:Holy poo poo thanks - I thought I'd replied to this with a LOT of grovelling and all that. Thank you thank you. Ultimately, sure, all writing advice is 'subjective' because the value of writing is 'subjective' because it's experienced by humans, subjectively — but there are techniques of analysis you can apply to any writing to understand how it's trying to achieve its goals. You can then apply that analysis to your own writing to make better, more deliberate choices. It will make you better. When you are a new writer, this advice is disproportionately valuable. I know I got way way better just by getting all my work critiqued by a better writer for a couple years. Man, what the gently caress, I thought I was replying to a link to a Chuck Wendig post. Did I completely hallucinate that?
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Nov 14, 2015 04:46
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No... I came to post that and saw DKs post about my book, updated the post, added more, then left out the wendig link.
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Nov 14, 2015 04:53
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oh god query letter arglebargle unnnnnghhhh I'm reading Queryshark like it's my second job but surprise, it's really difficult to make a 95k super complicated multigenerational literary novel read like the flap copy to an exciting mystery
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Nov 23, 2015 00:46
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Why you should avoid double negativesDislike button posted:Lol if you're not incapable of proper squat form without at least 225 on your back rockcity posted:So lol if you're capable of squating 225? Dislike button posted:It's interesting to me how you managed to miss the point so completely. What specifically about the statement "incapable of proper squat form without at least 225 on your back" led you to post this in reply? Apologies if English is your second language DoubleT2172 posted:I think it's the part where you said "not incapable" champ. Dislike button posted:You may want to read that again Dislike button posted:wait so you mean people who speak English can't understand you? Dislike button posted:you read good
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Nov 23, 2015 02:02
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Defenestration posted:oh god query letter arglebargle unnnnnghhhh Give up on summarizing your book. Instead, write a 3 paragraph story designed to make the reader super excited to read your book! Distort, bend, omit, and rearrange as necessary.
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Nov 23, 2015 02:04
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Defenestration posted:oh god query letter arglebargle unnnnnghhhh I went through your pain. My book is through three different POVs that see a challenge differently, each serving their own purpose and chasing their dream, and there's murder, and ghosts, and a long buried past and all that poo poo, but in the end, none of that matters if you can't get somebody interested. So forget the massive universe and the multi-generational timeline. Pick the thing that sucks people in. My blurb/query pitch was crafted with a lot of help from the indie-pub thread. But only after two other completely different stabs at capturing all the poo poo I could force into two paragraphs. THIS ONE? This is on the back of my book now, and it's working goddamn great. I left out a lot of poo poo, and nailed it down to the OH gently caress moment. 
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Nov 23, 2015 05:28
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Hey, I just wrote this big thing about critiques in writing groups on a friend's Facebook, because I am like this IRL, too.my friend on Facebook posted:The problem with traditional workshop criticism is that the author will either hear "This sucks" or "This is great," and either way they'll stop listening. I wish it was possible to withhold that kind of advice and instead find some way to directly engage with the text. I've found that asking questions about what the writer meant ends up with too much of the writer talking about what they wanted to say instead of the critiques focusing on what the words actually said. It might just be a function of working in a group of primarily "beginner writers," but in my experience, that results in more explanation and excuses from the writer, and less constructive feedback from the critiquers. There is actually LESS listening. What has worked best in my groups is setting up a structure for the feedback, like "first we will talk about how you dealt with setting, then plot, then characters, then dialogue." Or "let's start with where this scene could be improved, then what you did well." Or sometimes with what aspects the author had specific questions about, i.e. "man, writing the dialogue in this scene was like pulling teeth. Was reading it the same?" Hopefully obviously, there weren't rigid lines within the discussions. You can hardly discuss plot effectively without discussing characterization, or characterization without discussing dialogue. Mentioning "setting" as a separate category feels almost bizarre to me now, but the group in question was formed as a follow-along to the Brandon Sanderson lecture series, so we were all writing fantasy/sci-fi novels, and effectively conveying setting was pretty important in the first several chapters at least, and definitely deserved its own topic, but as you know, setting can't just be dropped in whole-sale, so even those discussions overlapped with other topics. Having conversational "sub-headings" meant that practically no discussion started with "I liked this, but..." or "I didn't really like this, but..." Instead the author might get the impression that people overall liked or disliked one aspect, and possibly stop listening, but would start listening again when we moved on. The general "like/dislike" grouping worked well, too, at least within our small group, once we all knew each other pretty well. Not gonna lie, I probably listened a little bit harder to all of the things people liked, because "yay praise!" But I did also pay attention to each of the things that people disliked. And because of the way it was organized, there was discussion around each point. Someone would like something, and another person might dislike it. Someone else would have a third opinion like "I liked/disliked it for a different reason." When we addressed the author's own uncertainties about a scene/chapter, I think they were just inherently likely to listen to everything we had to say because we were going over something they had already thought about a lot. Although maybe they just wanted confirmation for their gut feelings. I'm trying to remember how I react in these particular situations, and am realizing that I cannot give a reliable answer. One thing that, in my opinion, made a huge difference in this group, was that we were very strongly encouraged to make a few WRITTEN notes about our opinions on each sub-topic of discussion for each piece we were discussing. So if we were going to approach a critique from a like/dislike, we would all come into it with a short list of the things we liked/disliked the most on every single point, and would try to make sure each of those was covered. I find it's easy to read a piece and have a vague opinion about it, and then get into a critique group and just kind of go along with what someone else is saying and not contribute much, honestly. Having those written notes beforehand made for a much richer experience all around. ALSO. As long as it's not overwhelming negative, I love listening to people talk about my writing, so I dunno what's up with people just tuning other people out during critique groups. It's soooooooo flattering that they are giving you this time and effort and attention. Bask in it. BASK IN IT.
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Nov 24, 2015 08:20
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