|
2house2fly posted:
You missed the conclusion of the previous season. He's a madman with a box... or two boxes in this episode.
|
#
?
Nov 8, 2015 04:40
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 3, 2024 11:41 |
|
|
MrL_JaKiri posted:The "this is what war is" section was fairly good, although it went on for far too long and had Babbys First Political Analysis stuffed in for good measure. But the point it raises is still valid- way too many would-be revolutionaries don't think about what to do afterwards. You can say their anger is justified by the evil of the middle class white guys all you want, it doesn't make their plans any better.
|
|
#
?
Nov 8, 2015 04:46
|
|
|
Maxwell Lord posted:But the point it raises is still valid- way too many would-be revolutionaries don't think about what to do afterwards. You can say their anger is justified by the evil of the middle class white guys all you want, it doesn't make their plans any better. It's not a requirement of revolutionaries to have a plan for the future. If all revolutions had to have fully plotted out roadmaps for after the revolution's done we'd never get anywhere. That was one of the bits of the speech that fell flat for me, even though Capaldi sold the hell out of it. After all, the Zygons have a point. I think this is the best two-parters of the series so far. Seriously, go back and watch the first part. It works MUCH better.
|
|
#
?
Nov 8, 2015 04:57
|
|
|
Rochallor posted:It's not a requirement of revolutionaries to have a plan for the future. If all revolutions had to have fully plotted out roadmaps for after the revolution's done we'd never get anywhere. That was one of the bits of the speech that fell flat for me, even though Capaldi sold the hell out of it. After all, the Zygons have a point. It is if they want anything better to result from it. (An actual plan to WIN would also be good, which is something he also brings up.)
|
|
#
?
Nov 8, 2015 04:59
|
|
|
That was a lot better but that's not saying too much. If it had been one episode rather than two, it may have gone over better. The thing that felt the most silly was the completely unnecessary flashback to Kate shooting the Zygon. Yep, that totally needed to be shown not told! I like how the Sonic Shades are Ray Bands, Doctor has a bit of a Johnny Marr phase I guess.
|
|
#
?
Nov 8, 2015 05:03
|
|
|
For all this Two-parter's myriad structural and thematic issues, I enjoyed Kate it in more than I probably have in any previous stories. Although the idea that they've reached that stand-off with the boxes like 15 other times is kind of depressing and sort of undercuts the tension the story if it's just part of the routine now. Might explain UNIT's staffing issues though.
|
|
#
?
Nov 8, 2015 05:10
|
|
|
I can't quite put my finger on it, but I just cannot loving stand Osgood. like, every time she is on screen I'm find myself really annoyed. Other than that, I liked the episode well enough.
|
|
#
?
Nov 8, 2015 05:10
|
|
|
Roach Warehouse posted:For all this Two-parter's myriad structural and thematic issues, I enjoyed Kate it in more than I probably have in any previous stories. Although the idea that they've reached that stand-off with the boxes like 15 other times is kind of depressing and sort of undercuts the tension the story if it's just part of the routine now. Might explain UNIT's staffing issues though. I kinda like that. They're still not ready to actually resolve their issues, so defusing the violence is the best the Doctor can do each time.
|
|
#
?
Nov 8, 2015 05:13
|
|
|
enigmahfc posted:I can't quite put my finger on it, but I just cannot loving stand Osgood. like, every time she is on screen I'm find myself really annoyed. Other than that, I liked the episode well enough. Funny, this is actually the first and only episode where I didn't cringe every time Osgood was on screen. I thought she was actually well utilized here.
|
|
#
?
Nov 8, 2015 05:22
|
|
|
I wonder if the 2 little girls in the High Command were actually the leaders of the previous revolution? lol.
|
|
#
?
Nov 8, 2015 05:25
|
|
|
That was a loving fantastic monologue, and here's why: It resolved a theme that has been kicking around since the second episode after he regenerated. Why does this Doctor hate soldiers so much? Why does he question his morality? Why did he mention in the bank heist episode that he hated the engineer? The self-loathing for acts he committed during the Time War finally spilled over into plain view, and we finally have an admission that, while he didn't hit the button on the Moment, the War Doctor still did some very bad things. I didn't even care about the little jabs at The new Osgood was wearing Seven's outfit, right? That makes it all part of the plan 
|
|
#
?
Nov 8, 2015 06:26
|
|
|
Rochallor posted:It's not a requirement of revolutionaries to have a plan for the future. If all revolutions had to have fully plotted out roadmaps for after the revolution's done we'd never get anywhere. That was one of the bits of the speech that fell flat for me, even though Capaldi sold the hell out of it. After all, the Zygons have a point. Many successful revolutionaries do and have had plans, but often quickly fall back on tyranny as the easy option. That was the point. Angela Christine posted:I wonder if the 2 little girls in the High Command were actually the leaders of the previous revolution? lol. That makes more sense than this two-parter did. If most of all that was to set up for the speech, what a shonky job is all I can say. Nor do I think it would really convince anyone serious. Kate backs down because she knows what the Doctor means, why would a Zygon give two hoots? Why indeed would a revolutionary Zygon insist on a human name, that's like a slave insisting on their slave name. A bad collection of get-outs and fudges in the service of a not so bad idea.
|
|
#
?
Nov 8, 2015 06:29
|
|
|
Bonnie was a reactionary (with good cause) but she was acting out of rage and a desire for - if not revenge - then at least the sense that she and the other Zygons were doing something about their situation. Every time the Doctor tried to reason with her she'd hit back with some simplistic, often smug dismissal of his concerns because she didn't want to think about things or reason them out, she wanted to act, to achieve something. And that's the beautiful thing for me about that scene, because as justified as she might be in her anger she is still planning something monumentally stupid and suicidal (20 million Zygons in the open are going to lose any war against humanity, they just don't have the numbers despite their tech/abilities) and he actually makes her look past her rage and think about the consequences. As the Doctor says, usually a lot of death and destruction has to happen before people finally sit down and talk, and he wanted to force them to get to the talking sooner rather than later. The status quo is still not exactly a great thing for the Zygons, but Bonnie's solution was by far worse, and as the poor older Zygon showed us, it seems a significant portion of them ARE happy to have a homeworld again and don't mind at all maintaining human shape in public.
|
|
#
?
Nov 8, 2015 06:42
|
|
|
The Doctor's monologue in the Black Archive is, without a doubt, the best performance Capaldi has given in his tenure. Simply outstanding.
|
|
#
?
Nov 8, 2015 07:46
|
|
|
CaptainYesterday posted:The Doctor's monologue in the Black Archive is, without a doubt, the best performance Capaldi has given in his tenure. Simply outstanding. Agreed, it was amazing but it doesn't redeem the poo poo we had to go through to get there. This was a very bad episode but the monologue and that last bit int he TARDIS "I'll be the judge of time." That was wonderful. That was Doctor Who.
|
|
#
?
Nov 8, 2015 08:56
|
|
|
2house2fly posted:I thought that was an okay two-parter in all, with some stupid bits, the standout for me being that Kate survived by just... shooting the zygon. imo they should at least have had a line acknowledging how flat that is, like "it expected me to believe they killed everyone except this one policewoman and vanished, I was ready for it the whole time" or whatever to make Kate seem less dumb for being taken in in the first place. Why did no one else try shooting a Zygon in the first episode then? Seemed to work perfectly fine in this one.
|
|
#
?
Nov 8, 2015 09:15
|
|
|
Paladinus posted:I am still concerned that our government can allow 20 million of Zygons in without even informing us. Now, I have nothing against them coming in reasonable quantities, so that they can integrate into our society and help integrating other Zygons. Bringing the whole lot in one batch means nothing but future radicalisation... Ok, #1, I have a feeling you're not talking about Zygons here. I mean, "concerned"? It's a TV show. #2, You might be surprised at the number of ways you can fit 20 million into 7 billion. 20 million sounds big but 7 billion is much, much bigger.
|
|
#
?
Nov 8, 2015 09:16
|
|
|
Didn't someone tox themselves that this week would turn the previous episode on its head?
|
|
#
?
Nov 8, 2015 10:23
|
|
|
I enjoyed listening to ...ish so much that I immediately grabbed the next audio to listen to. It's The Rapture, written by Joseph Lidster.....  Mr Beens posted:Didn't someone tox themselves that this week would turn the previous episode on its head? That was DoctorWhat, and it was a silly Toxx and he shouldn't follow through on it. 
|
|
#
?
Nov 8, 2015 10:44
|
|
|
Jerusalem posted:I enjoyed listening to ...ish so much that I immediately grabbed the next audio to listen to. It's The Rapture, written by Joseph Lidster..... The rapture is loving DREADFUL. A woman in her mid 40s pretending to be a raving teenager in Ibiza would be bad enough without it being a Lidster script. Early Big Finish bounces around so much in terms of quality it's not funny.
|
|
#
?
Nov 8, 2015 11:18
|
|
|
Okay, that episode successfully managed to not gently caress up everything, and indeed be pretty good. The overall message is still a little bit bad, but it's not insensitive, offensive and harmful like we were worrying. It's just, as people have said here, a little bit naive. And I'd say that if there's any flaw I'm okay with a Doctor Who story's message having, it's being naive. Count me in as someone who thought Capaldi's speech at the boxes was good. The only issue I had is that it might've been a bit long; I got distracted by the Maia helmet behind them partway through, eventually realizing 'oh, it's still going... oh, and it's still GOOD'.
|
|
#
?
Nov 8, 2015 11:18
|
|
|
Jerusalem posted:I enjoyed listening to ...ish so much that I immediately grabbed the next audio to listen to. It's The Rapture, written by Joseph Lidster..... Don't listen to it. Just write it off as accidental loss. It's honestly not worth your time. Do something more useful for those two hours. Start learning scrimshaw or something.
|
|
#
?
Nov 8, 2015 11:24
|
|
|
Why do people dislike Lidster? The Rapture's not amazing, but Terror Firma's great, and so's The Reaping, mostly. Plus his other, non-Who stuff tends to be really good, like his Bernice Summerfield work.
|
|
#
?
Nov 8, 2015 12:05
|
|
|
ashpanash posted:Ok, #1, I have a feeling you're not talking about Zygons here. I mean, "concerned"? It's a TV show. I am talking about unfortunate implications of this episode. But I also wouldn't allow my daughter to date a Zygon.
|
|
#
?
Nov 8, 2015 12:13
|
|
|
Open Source Idiom posted:Why do people dislike Lidster? The Rapture's not amazing, but Terror Firma's great, and so's The Reaping, mostly. Plus his other, non-Who stuff tends to be really good, like his Bernice Summerfield work. His Who stuff is almost always mean spirited and DARK which I don't much like in my Who. Also there is always a big twist that in theory affects everything that has come before (Ace has a brother! Eight travelled with two other companions before Charlie!) which then is ignored in all subsequent stories. I've heard his no who stuff is fine and maybe his style works better for stuff like Dark Shadows but it's just not what I'm after in Who. Paladinus posted:I am talking about unfortunate implications of this episode. I am writing to the Queen to ask her to ensure that UKIP are granted appropriate representation in any further Osgood box button pressings. Fil5000 fucked around with this message at 12:17 on Nov 8, 2015 |
|
#
?
Nov 8, 2015 12:15
|
|
|
So, if both Osgoods are simply Osgood... does that mean we might have to deal with a species of Osgood at one point? Zygons, no problem. But I don't think I could handle 20 million Osgoods.ashpanash posted:Ok, #1, I have a feeling you're not talking about Zygons here. I mean, "concerned"? It's a TV show. Heh. Goons, don't recognize a joke even if it'd punched them in the face.
|
|
#
?
Nov 8, 2015 12:28
|
|
|
Fil5000 posted:A woman in her mid 40s pretending to be a raving teenager in Ibiza Some actors can make that kind of thing work!   
|
|
#
?
Nov 8, 2015 12:31
|
|
|
CaptainYesterday posted:The Doctor's monologue in the Black Archive is, without a doubt, the best performance Capaldi has given in his tenure. Simply outstanding. Yeah, that was utterly fantastic  . This episode was a complete inversion ( ) of Invasion in terms of quality, and made The Zygon Invasion completely irrelevant because none of the supposedly big important story beats carried through to this one. They could've gutted Invasion down to about 5-10 minutes of setup and wrapped it into Inversion altogether.That said, I did like Kate's remark of "five rounds, rapid". Finally found something bullets work on  .
|
|
#
?
Nov 8, 2015 12:57
|
|
|
2house2fly posted:
If its middle class to perform critical thinking then thank god for the middle class. I assume the working class solution was genocide and the upper class solution was to get the working class to perform the genocide.
|
|
#
?
Nov 8, 2015 13:26
|
|
|
The episode was obviously about the Troubles and the Belfast Agreement. 
|
|
#
?
Nov 8, 2015 13:36
|
|
|
Regarde Aduck posted:If its middle class to perform critical thinking then thank god for the middle class. I assume the working class solution was genocide and the upper class solution was to get the working class to perform the genocide. The problem isn't necessarily the "fighting is madness and doesn't solve anything!" perspective. That's correct. The problem is that we have a bit of a problem with discounting entire movements' legitimate concerns the second a small group of them use violence or cause a riot or uprising. Then suddenly the entire media perspective instantly shifts into this concern trolling "I agree people need equal rights but..." stance and focuses solely on the violence instead of the issues. Like, yeah, unless you're living in a legitimate despotic hellhole staging a rebellion or riot probably isn't going to end up being a great idea, but as a society we're way quicker to use 24 hours of constant news to shame and condemn a movement for using violence than we are to give a platform to a similar (even peaceful) movement's concerns. To some degree getting an issue talked about at all requires you to do something either slightly evil, dumb, or provocative and hope people talk about the actual issue in between condemning or mocking you. Moderates can always find a reason why a group they ostensibly "agree with" is doing things incorrectly and should just do something different, or wait until a "better time" to voice their concerns (but of course, that time never comes). Violence is one of the more legitimate "you're doing it wrong" criticisms, but that also means that it makes a much easier thing to talk about instead of taking action over the actual issue at hand. It's kind of just "not even wrong". Yeah, the Doctor has a legitimate point, the violence the Zygon rebellion used was reprehensible. But even in this episode all the focus was on the uprising aspect and they pretty much swept the entire rebellion's actual concerns under the rug in order to lecture them about how their way of accomplishing that objective was dumb. It was framed as "cry me a river, you used violence so you lose all right to have concerns." Like, the speech was an absurdly good character moment, but the whole thrust of the content was troubling. Not like "TAKE DOCTOR WHO OFF THE AIR AND BAN THIS EPISODE" bad or anything so dramatic, just something I found off that I think is worth looking at.
|
|
#
?
Nov 8, 2015 14:04
|
|
|
Neddy Seagoon posted:Yeah, that was utterly fantastic Yeah I said pretty much that earlier - a goon upthread said he is going to try to do it  I found the five rounds rapid remark too forced and the whole sequence really badly pulled off "How did you survive" *slow zoom into her face while she is looking off into the distance* Cut to a human turning into a zygon and menacing her really slowly while she cowers in fear. Cut back to her aiming her pistol and firing it really badly. Cut back to the present "Five rounds rapid" *smirk to camera* No reactions from anyone else in the room.
|
|
#
?
Nov 8, 2015 14:05
|
|
|
drat, a friend just told me that a friend's friend made a whole bunch of 5-min versions of 9th and 10th doctor episodes a few years ago, to practice her video editing. Those summary versions would keep all the important plot points but also have lots of sped-up running with Yakety Sax playing. I'd watch the hell out of Doctor Who Abridged, but apparently she has no intention to release those videos to the world. 
|
|
#
?
Nov 8, 2015 14:11
|
|
|
Once again, a Peter Harness episode involving a bunch of women stuck in a room with a choice between pressing two buttons, and the morality of being a button-pusher, has a bunch of political themes in it that upset a great many people but a fantastic speech near the end that absolutely sells it for me. ...Wait, what year is it again?
|
|
#
?
Nov 8, 2015 14:11
|
|
|
Regarde Aduck posted:If its middle class to perform critical thinking then thank god for the middle class. I assume the working class solution was genocide and the upper class solution was to get the working class to perform the genocide. Or you could say that genocide is the upper class solution, and they get the working class to do it. The working class only resort to genocide themselves when they're tired of the upper class screwing them over in between genocides. Meanwhile the middle class wring their hands over it all and get genocided by the other two classes at every opportunity. Jsor posted:It's kind of just "not even wrong". Yeah, the Doctor has a legitimate point, the violence the Zygon rebellion used was reprehensible. But even in this episode all the focus was on the uprising aspect and they pretty much swept the entire rebellion's actual concerns under the rug in order to lecture them about how their way of accomplishing that objective was dumb. It was framed as "cry me a river, you used violence so you lose all right to have concerns." Partly that for me, but I also felt I was being clobbered by a  conclusion to a bunch of tabloid posturing from episode 1 which actually made the inversion less believable and actually shameless. Capaldi is turning into another Smith, doing a terrific job of interpreting a mess, only now it's an extended mess.
|
|
#
?
Nov 8, 2015 14:21
|
|
|
Jsor posted:It's kind of just "not even wrong". Yeah, the Doctor has a legitimate point, the violence the Zygon rebellion used was reprehensible. But even in this episode all the focus was on the uprising aspect and they pretty much swept the entire rebellion's actual concerns under the rug in order to lecture them about how their way of accomplishing that objective was dumb. It was framed as "cry me a river, you used violence so you lose all right to have concerns." Yeah, this is sort of the issue for me. That sort of view, I find, is largely (perhaps exclusively) held by people who have never been in a position where they feel like they'd have to fight for anything they held dear. In my experience a lot of them might be genuinely good-hearted and well-meaning people, they'll probably even agree with the protester's/rebellion's points if you explain them in a way that's a bit more palatable to them rhetorically. But they've never faced a situation where things they value on a societal level are actually threatened, so they just can't empathize with people who have. Even then, it doesn't feel like the Doctor is one of 'those' people. He might be taking their stance, but he's doing it out of genuine experience with similar situations rather than just gut-feel head-shaking. He's seen a war of this caliber, he's fought on a battlefield where each side only wants total eradication of the other, and he knows no good can come of it. He's talking down a war, not a protest. Cleretic fucked around with this message at 14:47 on Nov 8, 2015 |
|
#
?
Nov 8, 2015 14:42
|
|
|
Maxwell Lord posted:But the point it raises is still valid- way too many would-be revolutionaries don't think about what to do afterwards. You can say their anger is justified by the evil of the middle class white guys all you want, it doesn't make their plans any better. And then you ask is it worse or better than what came before? And that question is much more open. A lot of the time it's better, sometimes it's worse, sometimes it's just different. For ideological reasons we're very focused, in the UK and the US, on the downsides of certain types of society in isolation rather than in comparison to the flaws in our own; or indeed our own part in bringing certain governments (eg. Iran's theocracy) into being. A lot of things are also exaggerated or deliberately mistranslated for propaganda reasons. ewe2 posted:Many successful revolutionaries do and have had plans, but often quickly fall back on tyranny as the easy option. That was the point. I refer you again to the Mark Twain quote. Especially given our current government.
|
|
#
?
Nov 8, 2015 14:49
|
|
|
Regarde Aduck posted:If its middle class to perform critical thinking then thank god for the middle class. I assume the working class solution was genocide and the upper class solution was to get the working class to perform the genocide. Yeah no. An awful lot of social advance has only happened because of violence or the threat of violence - workers rights, votes for women, the Post War consensus in general - and to pretend otherwise is a whitewashing of history and hugely insulting to the memories of people who risked or gave their lives in order to fight for the quality of life of their peers. Basically every time popular history tells us that something was achieved through negotiation alone it's a convenient lie to make both sides feel better.
|
|
#
?
Nov 8, 2015 14:56
|
|
|
Why hasn't the title been changed to Totally And Radically Driving In Space yet?  
|
|
#
?
Nov 8, 2015 15:23
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 3, 2024 11:41 |
|
|
These episodes could've been about Norn Iron easily. Could've come out in the Cartmel era and that's what they'd have been about.
|
|
#
?
Nov 8, 2015 16:41
|
|