USPOL Nov: I would've preferred Huckabee have said nothing at all

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Godlessdonut: Sep 13, 2005

computer parts posted:

The Confederates had a habit of claiming more territory than they actually controlled.

I guess Kentucky isn't in the South either.

# ? Nov 8, 2015 17:17

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# ? May 29, 2024 23:44

computer parts: Nov 18, 2010; PLEASE CLAP

El Disco posted:

I guess Kentucky isn't in the South either.

Correct, under the previous definition.

# ? Nov 8, 2015 17:18

Cythereal: Nov 8, 2009; I love the potoo,
and the potoo loves you.

You don't need to be in the South to be a racist shitbag fyi.

# ? Nov 8, 2015 17:21

Raskolnikov38: Mar 3, 2007; We were somewhere around Manila when the drugs began to take hold

Rygar201 posted:

Yeah, Missouri explicitly voted down secession.

Most of Missouri voted down secession, those in favor set up a rump government and 'seceded' but Union troops controlled the state from the get go.

# ? Nov 8, 2015 17:24

Pythagoras a trois: Feb 19, 2004; I have a lot of points to make and I will make them later.

So when are we expected to see big downturns in Sander's campaign? He's doing fine against Hillary in Primary states, is it just supposed to keep looking better until 'surprise skewed polls' Hillary wins Iowa?

# ? Nov 8, 2015 17:25

Boon: Jun 21, 2005; by R. Guyovich

Deep south, a state of being.

# ? Nov 8, 2015 17:26

computer parts: Nov 18, 2010; PLEASE CLAP

Raskolnikov38 posted:

Most of Missouri voted down secession, those in favor set up a rump government and 'seceded' but Union troops controlled the state from the get go.

There was a kinda similar process surrounding the formation of West Virginia. Officially you can't create a state from pieces of another state without that other state's consent, so the "totally legit" recognized government of Virginia formed and gave their blessing for West Virginia to become its own state.

# ? Nov 8, 2015 17:30

sullat: Jan 9, 2012

El Disco posted:

One of the 13 stars on the confederate battle flag represents Missouri, so yes.

There were 13 states that the rebels had hoped would secede, but only 11 did. Missouri and Kentucky voted it down, although the pro-seccesion forces set up a rival government, and in Kentucky's case, even managed to control the state capitol for a bit before being pushed out.

# ? Nov 8, 2015 17:32

30.5 Days: Nov 19, 2006

Cheekio posted:

'surprise skewed polls' Hillary wins Iowa?

Hillary is ahead in Iowa. In literally every poll.

# ? Nov 8, 2015 17:39

smg77: Apr 27, 2007

Cheekio posted:

So when are we expected to see big downturns in Sander's campaign? He's doing fine against Hillary in Primary states, is it just supposed to keep looking better until 'surprise skewed polls' Hillary wins Iowa?

Where are you seeing him doing fine against Hillary in primary states? I thought all the polling was showing him maybe competitive in NH but Hillary leading by fairly wide margins just about everywhere else.

# ? Nov 8, 2015 17:42

happyhippy: Feb 21, 2005; Playing games, watching movies, owning goons. 'sup; Pillbug

Greatbacon posted:

It's specifically quoting Proverbs 22:4, which is "By humility and the fear of the Lord are riches, and honour, and life." -King James Version

When I decide to go full Politcal Supply Side Jesus Galt I'm going to hang up a pic that says: "Thou shalt...kill. - Exodus 20:13".

# ? Nov 8, 2015 17:42

Luigi Thirty: Apr 30, 2006; Emergency confection port.

Remember the story a week or so ago about the Idaho rancher who got into a shootout with cops over his dying bull? Turns out that wasn't the whole story.

The cops shot the bull with M16s but didn't kill it because they are dumb. The rancher arrived and took out his rifle to finish off the bull cleanly. One officer turned him around by grabbing the rifle while he had his finger on the trigger and he incidentally pointed his rifle at the officers and may have accidentally fired it pointed at the ground, which was enough for them to light him up and put a gun to his nephew's head. Oh and his wife had a heart attack at the scene.

Is calling for the brutal murder of all police still frowned upon?

# ? Nov 8, 2015 17:44

Woof Blitzer: Dec 29, 2012; [-]

Luigi Thirty posted:

Is calling for the brutal murder of all police still frowned upon?

Yes.

# ? Nov 8, 2015 17:48

Greatbacon: Apr 9, 2012; by Pragmatica

Please use a guillotine, we're not monsters.

# ? Nov 8, 2015 17:51

Crowsbeak: Oct 9, 2012; by Azathoth; Lipstick Apathy

So I tohught we might all like this article. This article, besides showing why I am a sceptical Sanders supporter ovr Hillar, shows that the Democrats will eventually need to muzzle the neoliberals that still infest it.

Gaurdian posted:

Leading architects of the �New Democrat� movement are sounding the alarm over a lurch to the left in the party, after candidates at the latest presidential primary debate confirmed a resurgence of more populist economic policies.
Hillary Clinton seeks to outflank liberal rivals at Democratic forum
Read more

Hillary Clinton, Bernie Sanders and Martin O�Malley spoke passionately about the need to reduce wage inequality and corporate power during a forum in South Carolina on Friday in which all three distanced themselves from the establishment orthodoxy that has long prevailed in Washington.

It followed a similar performance from Clinton at the first official debate in Las Vegas last month that restored her lead over Sanders � who describes himself as a democratic socialist � but has nonetheless left the party with one of its most radical policy platforms in decades.

�We�re at a point in history right now where both our democracy and our economy are not working for the majority,� the former secretary of state told MSNBC moderator Rachel Maddow at the South Carolina event.

�People rightly believe that corporations and the powerful have stacked the deck in their favour and against everybody else.�

How committed Clinton is to her new anti-establishment agenda remains a matter of fierce debate, not least among Sanders supporters, but Guardian interviews with leading activists on both sides of the party�s divide suggest the lurch to the left is not limited to presidential politics.

�The battle for the soul of the Democratic party is coming to an end,� claims Adam Green, co-founder of the Progressive Change Campaign Committee (PCCC), a champion of Massachusetts senator Elizabeth Warren.

�It�s not just Sanders and O�Malley, there is an entire Warren wing of American politics that includes certain politicians, thinktank, and advocacy groups [and] has fundamentally shifted the national debate in an economic populist direction.�

They point to near-universal rejection among Democrats of Barack Obama�s free trade agreement, a lasting revolt against his plans to cut social security and radical promises to curb student debt as signs that the Democratic mainstream has outstripped a progressive president who once seemed too radical for his party.

Yet signs are growing of a backlash within what remains of the party�s more business-friendly and economically conservative New Democrat wing.

At Columbia University in New York this weekend the Progressive Policy Institute, which helped Bill Clinton and Tony Blair pioneer so-called third way politics in the 1990s, held a closed-door strategy session for congressional staffers that was designed to find ways of promoting growth.

�There is no question that the prevailing temper of the Democratic party is populist: strongly sceptical of what we like to call capitalism and angry about the perceived power of the monied elite in politics,� says PPI president and founder Will Marshall.

�But inequality is not the biggest problem we face: it is symptomatic of the biggest problem we face, which is slow growth.�

Al From, a leading figure of the centre left who chaired the Democratic Leadership Council during the first Clinton presidency, argues that a focus on inequality, though understandable after the banking crash, risks driving all candidates too far from policies that would promote growth.

�They rev up the base of the party, but if all you are doing is redistributing golden eggs and you�ve got a dead goose, you aren�t going to get very far,� he says. �That�s what I worry about more than anything else.�

He adds: �It�s feelgood politics. It�s very easy to say, �When I�m elected we are going to increase social security�, but we might not be able to pay for social security as it is.�

The Wisconsin congressman Ron Kind, who chairs the New Democrat Coalition in Congress, even compares some progressives in the House of Representatives to the Tea Party movement among Republicans: a sign that redistricting of once tightly-contested seats has left American politics �way too polarised, way too partisan, and way too much about playing to niche interests�.

But despite PPI�s Columbia summit and a burst of recent policy papers from another centrist group, Third Way, the influence of the New Democrat Coalition and a similar grouping of moderate southern Democrats known as the Blue Dogs is widely seen as in terminal decline.

All three moderates who spoke to the Guardian ahead of the South Carolina forum acknowledge that the US has changed dramatically since the 1990s, when the New Democrat movement was born as an answer to three heavy defeats to Republicans under Ronald Reagan and George HW Bush.

�Culturally, the country has progressed a lot and we are not going back,� says From, who points especially to changing attitudes to gay marriage and women�s rights. �But the question is whether a major political party can sustain itself solely on cultural issues and can have a real shot at governing, if it doesn�t have a growth agenda as part of its programme.�

Unsurprisingly, their view is not shared among those pushing the party to the left, who dispute the claim that it reduces the chances of ever taking back control of Congress as well as the White House.

They argue the reverse: that economic populism is a way for Democrats to transcend culture wars that have divided the country and find common cause with Republicans who are equally fed up with stagnant middle class wages and the power of the Wall Street elite.

�These are sound general election strategies, not just primary strategies � especially in red states, and especially in purple states, where if we want to overcome cultural divide issues we need to lean more into economic populist issues,� says Green at the PCCC.

�If [voters] are thinking about debt-free college and social security benefits, then we win. In some states, if they are thinking about guns and immigration, then we lose.�

Green and Neil Sroka of the grassroots group Democracy for America also revealed how a key gathering of activists in California in 2013 laid the groundwork for the transformation now reverberating through the party.

The meeting in a San Jose hotel room of groups also including MoveOn.org, Working Families, Progressives United and Social Security Works was an informal spin off from the annual Netroots Nation conference. Attendees dressed in shorts and T-Shirts.

But despite the laid-back vibe, the meeting was an angry reaction to Obama�s recent proposal to cut social security, something the White House saw as a necessary concession to encourage Republicans to compromise on other budget issues.

Having successfully fought their own president and defended the pension rights of millions of Americans, the activists decided to go on the offensive and try to convince other Democrats to begin talking about expanding social security instead.

�We treated it like a product launch,� explains Green, who describes how they latched on to a bipartisan bill in Congress and eventually persuaded almost every Senate Democrat and presidential candidate to consider expanding this key federal entitlement programme.

A similar orchestrated push lay behind the decision by Clinton, Sanders and O�Malley to back radical reform of college funding.

This time Senator Warren worked with New York moderate Chuck Schumer to sponsor a bill proposing to eliminate student debt for poorer students in public colleges � something later taken up in some form by all the party�s would-be nominees for the 2016 election.

�The entire time, the main objective was to get presidential candidates to feel comfortable,� Green says.

�This isn�t just an election year reality,� Sroka adds. �These issues are things progressives have been talking about for the better part of two or three years.�

Of course, such lobbying is only part of the explanation but the well-funded and well-organised groups behind it are attracting envy from rivals.

�What they have built is a progressive infrastructure to counter the power of right wing media,� claims PPI�s Marshall. �And they have succeeded, so now we have a left wing echo chamber that is at least as well funded and robust as the right wing.

�It is big, pervasive and well-funded, so you have a lot of the energy on the extremes of American politics propelled by anger.

The response from those inside the supposed leftwing echo chamber is actually more one of hollow laughter as they point how much groups such as Third Way are backed by Wall Street and how 80% of the money for groups such as DFA comes from individuals giving $200 or less.

Nonetheless, it is far from the biggest source of disagreement between the two wings of the party. That prize goes to Hillary Clinton, whose long-term commitment to the radical cause remains a matter of heated dispute.
Hillary Clinton
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Hillary Clinton has shifted left on a number of policy positions. Photograph: Hillary Clinton campaign

On Friday, Clinton was barely distinguishable from Sanders and O�Malley � even denying her hawkish foreign policy reputation by insisting she would be no �more aggressive� a commander-in-chief than Obama.

But many moderates believe she will come around once the primary contest is over, particularly over trade when her opposition to Obama�s Trans Pacific Partnership (TPP) deal is the biggest thorn in the side of pro-business Democrats.

�I�d lie if I said I wasn�t disappointed with the statement that she made on TPP,� says representative Kind. �Everyone knew where she was on that and where she will be, but given the necessities of the moment and a tough Democratic primary she felt she needed to go there initially.�

From agreed. �Hillary will bend a little bit but not so much that she can�t get herself back on course in the general [election] and when she is governing,� he said.

Yet others on both right and left believe Clinton may have gone too far to turn back.

�The danger is that she and other Democrats may believe that there is no political risk in appeasing core partisans with an ideological message,� warns Marshall.
Democratic forum � what we learned
Read more

Others caution against writing off the challenge from Sanders just yet, but agree that Clinton cannot easily walk away from her stand against inequality just because he is beaten.

�I think the idea that this primary is over is overblown,� Sroka says. �But you also need to recruit and gain the allegiance of the grassroots base of the party to win the general and you can�t do that by taking one position now and changing it later.�

Paradoxically, some New Democrats may even relish a Sanders resurgence, pointing to the similar experience of Ed Miliband and Jeremy Corbyn in the British Labour party, which they claim will ultimately prove the folly of pandering to the left.

�If we are going to be a governing party we have to [focus more on economic growth], but there is not going to be any pressure in the presidential process until we lose an election or two,� concludes From.

�I think we are in for a long period of the Republicans dominating Congress and state legislatures and the Democrats holding the presidency.�

Because they at the end would rather the teabaggers dominate congress then actual protections against their paymasters be passed.

# ? Nov 8, 2015 18:12

JT Jag: Aug 30, 2009; #1 Jaguars Sunk Cost Fallacy-Haver

Link the article and maybe quote your favorite part, don't quote the entire article

# ? Nov 8, 2015 18:22

RuanGacho: Jun 20, 2002; "You're gunna break it!"

Crowsbeak posted:

So I tohught we might all like this article. This article, besides showing why I am a sceptical Sanders supporter ovr Hillar, shows that the Democrats will eventually need to muzzle the neoliberals that still infest it.

Because they at the end would rather the teabaggers dominate congress then actual protections against their paymasters be passed.

These fuckers should be the first against the wall with how economic growth is apparently their only concern. More especially because they for some reason think that "spreading the golden gooses eggs" will somehow kill the goose.

loving aristocrats.

# ? Nov 8, 2015 18:32

AriadneThread: Feb 17, 2011; The Devil sounds like smoke and honey. We cannot move. It is too beautiful.

Greatbacon posted:

Please use a guillotine, we're not monsters.

well, yeah, we're monsters
but we're not monsters about it

# ? Nov 8, 2015 18:34

Aves Maria!: Jul 26, 2008; Maybe I'll drown

RuanGacho posted:

These fuckers should be the first against the wall with how economic growth is apparently their only concern. More especially because they for some reason think that "spreading the golden gooses eggs" will somehow kill the goose.

loving aristocrats.

Seriously, these boot-lickers can't die off fast enough. The problem isn't that all the economic gains are going to the rich, it's that there isn't more! (that would also go to the rich)

# ? Nov 8, 2015 18:35

Nonsense: Jan 26, 2007

Fix posted:

Trump is great, pushing this pic of Rubio stuck in some dumb meme.

"My campaign will consist primarily of freeze-framing my opponents and attaching it to whatever Twitter says."

This is better than my Cruz, but it would be best inside the little square cruz is in.

# ? Nov 8, 2015 18:38

Raskolnikov38: Mar 3, 2007; We were somewhere around Manila when the drugs began to take hold

Crowsbeak posted:

Because they at the end would rather the teabaggers dominate congress then actual protections against their paymasters be passed.

Liberals have always handed the guns over to the right whenever the left seems to be gaining power.

# ? Nov 8, 2015 18:40

alpha_destroy: Mar 23, 2010; Billy Butler: Fat Guy by Day, Doubles Machine by Night

What counts as "The South" is not nearly as clear cut as Northerners (or Southerners) want to believe.

Want to define it by the Mason-Dixon? Cool, that includes Maryland and Connecticut. Which may be cool with you. Former Confederate states sounds good til you remember Kentucky. Or West Virginia for that matter (Hi Jesco!). Texas and Florida may seem like a lock to a lot of people, but they have their own unique cultures too.

Plus there is more to the South than race. Living in Missouri my whole life I've never been much on what is usually considered southern food. I've never had grits. I don't drink sweet tea. My family or friends never made chicken and waffles. I've never had crayfish. I don't even know what collard greens are. This whole discussion isn't even touching on sports culture, gender, or sexuality. Or poverty. Or military fetishism.

My point is, it seems to me the entire concept of "South" exists so white Northerners and white Southerners can feel superior in there own ways. Because of that it is almost impossible to create a definitive list of Southern states.

# ? Nov 8, 2015 18:45

JonathonSpectre: Jul 23, 2003; I replaced the Shermatar and text with this because I don't wanna see racial slurs every time you post what the fuck; Soiled Meat

Lotka Volterra posted:

Seriously, these boot-lickers can't die off fast enough. The problem isn't that all the economic gains are going to the rich, it's that there isn't more! (that would also go to the rich)

Your faith in trickle-down economics is lacking, friend. Now I know your faith has been tested by the previous 30 years of the utter and total failure of trickle-down economics but you have to understand that much like the rattlesnake in certain churches, its success or failure is entirely up to you and your faith. If you get bit, or if your country's economy skews towards the very wealthy almost exclusively, it's because you didn't believe hard enough. Go to the polls and vote Republican with a faithful heart (or the ER with some fang-sized holes in you) and try again. Four years from now if it didn't work and you're still not rich, well, whose fault is that? I think we both know the answer.

# ? Nov 8, 2015 18:47

Raskolnikov38: Mar 3, 2007; We were somewhere around Manila when the drugs began to take hold

I feel this map provides a pretty clear outline of what the South is (New Mexico and Utah excepted).

e: lmao I just noticed the map maker was too lazy to get a clean map of the US and labeled the edges he didn't clean up

Raskolnikov38 fucked around with this message at 18:51 on Nov 8, 2015

# ? Nov 8, 2015 18:48

i say swears online: Mar 4, 2005

Crowsbeak posted:

So I tohught we might all like this article. This article, besides showing why I am a sceptical Sanders supporter ovr Hillar, shows that the Democrats will eventually need to muzzle the neoliberals that still infest it.

Because they at the end would rather the teabaggers dominate congress then actual protections against their paymasters be passed.

quote:

"But inequality is not the biggest problem we face: it is symptomatic of the biggest problem we face, which is slow growth.�

gently caress youuu, New Democrats

# ? Nov 8, 2015 18:50

Absurd Alhazred: Mar 27, 2010; by Athanatos

alpha_destroy posted:

What counts as "The South" is not nearly as clear cut as Northerners (or Southerners) want to believe.

Want to define it by the Mason-Dixon? Cool, that includes Maryland and Connecticut. Which may be cool with you.

You want to run that by us again?

# ? Nov 8, 2015 18:51

Die Sexmonster!: Nov 30, 2005

Doesn't settle the conversation, but in WA people I know consider Missouri to be Midwest.

(Everything that doesn't touch water is Midwest. :v:

)

# ? Nov 8, 2015 18:52

JonathonSpectre: Jul 23, 2003; I replaced the Shermatar and text with this because I don't wanna see racial slurs every time you post what the fuck; Soiled Meat

alpha_destroy posted:

What counts as "The South" is not nearly as clear cut as Northerners (or Southerners) want to believe.

Can you walk into any restaurant and order sweet tea and they bring you a delicious glass of sweet tea? You're in "the South."

Do they say, "No, but we can bring you some unsweet tea and some sugar packets?" :ohdear:

You may not necessarily be in "the North" but you sure as gently caress ain't in "the South."

# ? Nov 8, 2015 18:53

JT Jag: Aug 30, 2009; #1 Jaguars Sunk Cost Fallacy-Haver

JonathonSpectre posted:

Can you walk into any restaurant and order sweet tea and they bring you a delicious glass of sweet tea? You're in "the South."

Do they say, "No, but we can bring you some unsweet tea and some sugar packets?" You may not necessarily be in "the North" but you sure as gently caress ain't in "the South."

This is a solid definition

# ? Nov 8, 2015 18:57

alpha_destroy: Mar 23, 2010; Billy Butler: Fat Guy by Day, Doubles Machine by Night

Absurd Alhazred posted:

You want to run that by us again?

gently caress, I meant Delaware. I am so stupid. Still. I wouldn't generally call Delaware the south even if it was a slave state.

# ? Nov 8, 2015 19:01

i say swears online: Mar 4, 2005

JonathonSpectre posted:

Can you walk into any restaurant and order sweet tea and they bring you a delicious glass of sweet tea? You're in "the South."

Do they say, "No, but we can bring you some unsweet tea and some sugar packets?" You may not necessarily be in "the North" but you sure as gently caress ain't in "the South."

This is the only way to truly tell tbh

# ? Nov 8, 2015 19:01

Absurd Alhazred: Mar 27, 2010; by Athanatos

alpha_destroy posted:

gently caress, I meant Delaware. I am so stupid. Still. I wouldn't generally call Delaware the south even if it was a slave state.

I'd call it more like a punctuation mark. :v:

# ? Nov 8, 2015 19:03

slicing up eyeballs: Oct 19, 2005; I got me two olives and a couple of limes

The sweet tea thing is actually a working theory of mine, but I base it on what you get if you walk into a restaurant and ask for iced tea. Asking for unsweet tea in northern Virginia got me stared at like I was an idiot

# ? Nov 8, 2015 19:10

Sylphid: Aug 3, 2012

alpha_destroy posted:

gently caress, I meant Delaware. I am so stupid. Still. I wouldn't generally call Delaware the south even if it was a slave state.

If Wiki is to be believed, slavery was extremely marginal in Delaware by the time of the Civil War anyway.

# ? Nov 8, 2015 19:11

Alec Bald Snatch: Sep 12, 2012; by exmarx

You guys are approaching the issue from the wrong direction. Instead of trying to determine Missouri's status as a Southern state, it's much easier to figure out if it's in the Midwest. In fact, there's a simple, 100% guaranteed method of determining Midwesternness for lack of better term:

If the Gathering of the Juggalos has been held or was scheduled to be held in your state, you're in the Midwest.

Alec Bald Snatch fucked around with this message at 19:14 on Nov 8, 2015

# ? Nov 8, 2015 19:12

Cythereal: Nov 8, 2009; I love the potoo,
and the potoo loves you.

There are racist assholes throughout the entire drat country. Pretending systemic and institutional racism are a uniquely "Southern" problem is disingenuous at best of times.

# ? Nov 8, 2015 19:15

Alfred P. Pseudonym: May 29, 2006; And when you gaze long into an abyss, the abyss goes 8-8

Missouri became a southern state when Mizzou joined the SEC.

# ? Nov 8, 2015 19:17

Alec Bald Snatch: Sep 12, 2012; by exmarx

Alfred P. Pseudonym posted:

Missouri became a southern state when Mizzou joined the SEC.

And Notre Dame and Louisville are in the ACC.

# ? Nov 8, 2015 19:20

Islam is the Lite Rock FM: Jul 27, 2007; by exmarx

Alfred P. Pseudonym posted:

Missouri became a southern state when Mizzou joined the SEC.

This is a fair test for being in the south.

# ? Nov 8, 2015 19:27

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# ? May 29, 2024 23:44

woke wedding drone: Jun 1, 2003; by exmarx; Fun Shoe

Cythereal posted:

There are racist assholes throughout the entire drat country. Pretending systemic and institutional racism are a uniquely "Southern" problem is disingenuous at best of times.

I like to think of it like this: it's all the racism from everywhere else in America, plus a fat giggling pervert on a porch in a white suit, drinking tea, ogling his own kids toiling in the field.

# ? Nov 8, 2015 19:27

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Debate & Discussion > USPOL Nov: I would've preferred Huckabee have said nothing at all

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