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cargohills posted:His purpose was to represent the average Zygon to contrast with the villains. Of course not every Zygon agrees, otherwise there would be no villains. MrL_JaKiri posted:I don't understand why you are repeatedly trying to explain to me something I must already have known to have made the post that you replied to? [edit] Can you please imagine I post this after every post you're making because it applies to all of them MrL_JaKiri fucked around with this message at 21:40 on Nov 8, 2015 |
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Nov 8, 2015 21:32
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OldMemes posted:The zygons are guests on Earth. Man, The Silurians would blow your mind OldMemes posted:I don't think it's unreasonable to ask the giant blobs who can steal people's identities and electrocute people to keep a low profile to stop people freaking out. It's not like they were being forced to work in salt mines, or kept in camps, or there were signs up saying "no dogs, no zygons" Indeed. Instead they were given no work, sent around the world to places they weren't welcome even as humans (having initially been in camps) and were shot on sight for making the mistake of being unable to hold your shapeshifted form for long enough. That's much better.
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Nov 8, 2015 21:35
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UNIT aren't the good guys. The Doctor, Clara and Osgood are. E: in the single episode we are talking about
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Nov 8, 2015 21:37
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MrL_JaKiri posted:"Jim Crow laws are actually good" was a pretty widely held opinion in the South, sorry for you to find out from a Doctor Who thread. Either way the solution wasn't the kind of random "all of us against all of them" violence presented here. And it's not like that's a strawman- that's what groups like ISIS and Golden Dawn and US militarist hardliners and Sam Harris want, one big Clash of Civilizations. That's the sort of scenario we're presented with, and it's precisely the kind of unwinnable and pointless conflict the Doctor would want to prevent.
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Nov 8, 2015 21:41
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The Silurians at least chilled out eventually and realised that trying to become the dominant ideology/species on Earth was pretty stupid. If your plan involves wiping out millions of humans/zygons for not thinking the same way you do, then the plan is wrong. I felt bad for the zygon Bonnie murdered, that guy was happy, doing his thing.  The best solution if if the rebel hardliner zygons leave Earth if they hate it so much, and the majority of zygons stay. And they can take the lock ness monster with them - (did the Doctor defeat it? I haven't seen Terror of the Zygons for years and years).
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Nov 8, 2015 21:43
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i'm getting the impression that the pro-episode people are like "don't think too hard about it, it's a tv show" and not really answering any of the problems brought up with the episode. Which is not great. Sure I mock Cine D for "overthinking movies", but what happens with them is they make up a completely new movie in their heads and fall in love with it and forget completely what the hell happens in the actual film. Here the surface reading is lame and there's no helping it. I mean, I don't really understand how, even if you liked the episode, you could like it enough to muster the enthusiasm to defend it. The last one was super boring and this one had some good visuals but the episode itself, in the doctors own words, tells you that this story is a shallow and simplistic one with a villain who's basically a "tantruming child" who hasn't thought through things, only mildly better than a villain who is evil for evil's sake. this is an episode that ended with the Doctor, saying outright, "you're a credit to your race" I mean seriously.
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Nov 8, 2015 21:44
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MrL_JaKiri posted:Man, The Silurians would blow your mind I love the first one so much because it has so much more depth than any of this bullshit. Capaldi really deserved better. Like, you have the people in the middle, the Doctor and the Silurian leader, and you have the people on the outside- The Brigadier and the son. But none of them are without justification and none of them are villains per say. The Upstart Silurian does not trust humanity and believes them to be a threat to his own species, and he has good reason to given the Brigadier and others like him. The Brigadier, on the flip side, does not trust the Silurians and believes them to be a threat to HIS own species, and he has good reason to given the Upstart Silurian and others like him! No one is at fault for what's going on and both sides have legitimate complaints, and its ending is fantastic. Just the right blend of moral complexity and good story telling mixed with amazing things like the underground dinosaur.
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Nov 8, 2015 21:45
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Acne Rain posted:i'm getting the impression that the pro-episode people are like "don't think too hard about it, it's a tv show" and not really answering any of the problems brought up with the episode. Which is not great. Yeah nobody on the other side is thinking about things at all. You're really facilitating good conversation with posts like this.
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Nov 8, 2015 21:47
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I'm arguing with the reading because I think the message was the exact opposite, and I'm not writing much because that would take ages on a phone.
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Nov 8, 2015 21:48
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cargohills posted:I'm arguing with the reading because I think the message was the exact opposite, and I'm not writing much because that would take ages on a phone. Perhaps if you want to make an argument about the reading you should actually argue with the reading, and if you want to get involved in an involved argument not doing from a phone?
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Nov 8, 2015 22:17
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I'm not turning on my computer just to argue about Doctor Who and then immediately turn it off again. Sorry pal.
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Nov 8, 2015 22:19
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I don't think maybe that Doctor Who is the right show to be having serious discussions of the necessity of violent protest? Like, maybe 'war is bad and the actions of a radical few should not precipitate widespread retributive violence' is a controversial enough message these days? I just watched both Invasion and Inversion back-to-back though, so I didn't have a week to let the first half marinate / over-analyze it to death. It definitely could have done better as an extended single episode and there were a lot of problems, but the ending was great! e: and also it's not like Bonnie's contingent isn't getting their concerns addressed. Her keeping her memory and becoming an Osgood gives her significant agency going forward!
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Nov 8, 2015 22:21
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cargohills posted:I'm not turning on my computer just to argue about Doctor Who and then immediately turn it off again. Sorry pal. Oh no I'm missing out on all your valuable novel insights like "Doctor Who is a television programme"
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Nov 8, 2015 22:25
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With the one obvious exception, the Doctor never wants to fight. That's consistently his deal. It may not be the right attitude for every situation you can think of, but you wouldn't really expect the Doctor to say anything else.
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Nov 8, 2015 22:25
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evenworse username posted:With the one obvious exception, the Doctor never wants to fight. That's consistently his deal. It may not be the right attitude for every situation you can think of, but you wouldn't really expect the Doctor to say anything else. I could list twenty exceptions off the top of my head. A hundred exceptions. One of the Doctor's big things is "Arrive at a place where poo poo is hosed up, help overthrow the people loving it up". quote:There are some corners of the universe which have bred the most terrible things. Things which act against everything we believe in. They must be fought.
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Nov 8, 2015 22:27
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The Doctor isn't really all that into killing millions of innocent people and since the revival the Doctor's pacifism has developed significantly.
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Nov 8, 2015 22:28
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There's a Big Finish deal on Zygon stories, let's just read up what they're all abou- "This festive tale also features the dreaded Zygon subspecies, the Zynogs!" 
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Nov 8, 2015 22:30
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The Moonbase was a good, solid serial. I was not aware that quote came from it and was so happy to hear it when it happened.
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Nov 8, 2015 22:35
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As a last resort, sure, ok. I can't think of a single example (and I'm sure I'm about to get a correction here) where he doesn't attempt to find a peaceful solution or compromise, first. There really isn't any reason the Zygons and humans can't share Earth.
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Nov 8, 2015 22:36
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cargohills posted:The Doctor isn't really all that into killing millions of innocent people and since the revival the Doctor's pacifism has developed significantly. Season 4 has the Ood episode where they outright stage a violent slave revolt against their colonial masters and The Doctor basically just lets it play out and tells them they deserved it at the end. As Jakiri's been stating through this thread, sometimes violence is the lesser evil and pretending people have never had to physically fight for their rights is pretty disingenuous
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Nov 8, 2015 22:36
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Obivously the doctor should have let the rebel zygons kill millions of humans beings and other zygons, because not letting them do it might offend them. The Ood were literally being operated on and enslaved. The zygons were given asylum with a few conditions attached. Maybe the Doctor should let the Daleks win because not repescting their culture at all costs is very offensive and triggering for them. OldMemes fucked around with this message at 22:41 on Nov 8, 2015 |
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Nov 8, 2015 22:39
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evenworse username posted:As a last resort, sure, ok. I can't think of a single example (and I'm sure I'm about to get a correction here) where he doesn't attempt to find a peaceful solution or compromise, first. The Macra Terror The Happiness Patrol The Sun Makers and basically every "The Doctor finds a society where some bastard is in charge" episode that isn't Vengeance on Varos (oddly enough, given the prevailing violence of the time) evenworse username posted:There really isn't any reason the Zygons and humans can't share Earth. There isn't. You should ask the Zygon commanders (before they were vapourised), UNIT and the Doctor why they didn't try to find a peaceful solution before it got to this stage.
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Nov 8, 2015 22:41
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 Shapeshifting Zygons are everywhere in the UK, and there is no way of knowing who to trust. With UNIT neutralised, only the Doctor stands in their way. But how do you stop a war? And what can the Doctor do to save his friends? Peter Capaldi is the Doctor in The Zygon Inversion. X X X X X Cast The Doctor - Peter Capaldi Clara - Jenna Coleman Osgood - Ingrid Oliver Kate - Jemma Redgrave Etoine - Nicholas Asbury Zygons - Aidan Cook, Tom Wilton, Jack Parker Voice of the Zygons - Nicholas Briggs Written by: Peter Harness and Steven Moffat Directed by: Daniel Nettheim Trailer - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U3LMOcIDTSU Gifs by: J-Ru X X X X X  The Zygon Inversion is much better than the episode that preceded it. The first 40 minutes of the episode feel a bit like filler as there's a lot of running around talking as well as standing around talking, and some of the political/societal aspect don't quite hold water.. But it's all set-up for Peter Capaldi delivering perhaps his finest performance so far as the Doctor, codifying this episode's (and the last episode's) anti-war theme with a brilliant final 10 minutes. UNIT is in disarray. Kate Stewart is at the mercy of a Zygon. The Doctor and Osgood are presumed dead in a plane explosion. And Bonnie is ready to proceed with her plans to draw humanity into a war with the Zygons, with all of Clara's memories at her fingertips. Even the revelation that the Doctor and Osgood are still alive does little to concern her. All she had to do is break into the Black Archive (with Clara's unwilling help) and take control of the one weapon that will ensure total Zygon victory; the mysterious Osgood Box... Whereas The Zygon Invasion was a bit muddled in terms of the content of its message, The Zygon Inversion firmly plants its banner in fertile “anti-war” ground. But in order to get to the flag raising, Peter Harness and Steven Moffat first take the viewer down a winding, meandering river. If The Zygon Invasion and The Zygon Inversion are meant to be combined into one singular narrative, than it's a story that could have been told in 50 minutes as opposed to 100. While I wouldn't quite call the first 40 minutes of this episode “filler,” they could have been handled better, benefiting from a pass with the editor's scalpel or the addition of an extra scene. The scenes with the Doctor and Osgood surviving the plane crash was well done with Osgood pointing out how the Doctor was trying to distract her from their near-death experience, and the scene between Bonnie and Clara was a great exercise in bluff/counter-bluff. The other scenes however were just...lacking something. I don't know if I'd call it a sense of urgency or a sense of plot continuation, but I found myself glancing down at my phone more often than not. The reveal that Kate Stewart wasn't a Zygon fell flat, with the revelation that Kate simply shot her Zygon attacker (“five rounds rapid”) meant to be this big awesome moment when the awesome moment should have been “Kate Stewart pretending she was a Zygon and bluffing her way from New Mexico back to London without being discovered (what, do all humanized-Zygons look alike to the Zygons?).” With that said, it was nice to see Kate stand on her own, without a mention of her father. Hopefully this is some characterization that Jemma Redgrave can carry forward in future appearances, including the upcoming Big Finish UNIT: Extinction release. The scene in the shop with the “non-rebel Zygon,” Etoine, was another moment that just felt like it could have more weight to it. The special effects were top-notch as he slowly started to show evidence of being a Zygon, and Nicholas Asbury was superb with his panic, his wish to just be left alone, and willingness to sacrifice himself to prevent a war breaking out. Here was the non-rebel Zygon that I wanted to see last episode, someone who agrees with the peace treaty and what it represents. But something about the scene just felt off to me. I think I would have to liked to have seen a little more of Etoine trying to maintain his human form and avoiding inciting a riot before the Doctor and Osgood met him.  Props to Ingrid Oliver for her turn as Osgood. Oliver has taken the overeager, asthmatic fangirl from The Day of the Doctor and turned her into someone who takes her responsibilities (the burden the Doctor has laid upon her to keep the ceasefire) seriously, to the point where she refuses to answer the Doctor's repeated inquiry of “human or Zygon” because the question only can be answered when the answer isn't important anymore. Osgood didn't get all that much to do during this episode in terms of being an active observer, but her on-screen time was enjoyable as the Doctor's companion for the episode, a companion who understood the seriousness of the situation and focused on the task at hand. The highest praise I can give Ingrid Oliver is this – if it turned out that Osgood is the Doctor's new companion once Clara leaves, I don't think I'd mind all that much. And find me another actress who can make “twins taking a simultaneous hit off their inhalers” somewhat badass.   Credit has to go to Jenna Coleman for playing against herself for most of the episode. Physical and metaphysical locations aside, Clara and Bonnie (Zygella) are two completely different characters in the way Clara plays them. Bonnie is the character who thinks she has the upper hand and shows her smarts by out-bluffing Clara a time or two as she goes ahead with her plan, determined to see things through to the very end no matter how the situation breaks down – dedicated, ruthless, and zealous in her belief that what she's doing is the right thing, even if it's in a losing cause. On the other hand, Clara shows her quick thinking when she realizes her ability to lie like a politician is useless and takes another tract – telling the truth. Not all of the truth, but just enough of it. There's also her method of communicating with the Doctor through small body motions (unconscious text messaging, blinking twice for “yes” during Facetime). This episode is very much a case of “show, don't tell” in terms of how strong Clara is as a companion and why the Doctor thinks so highly of her, but Coleman's time as Bonnie shouldn't be discounted in the least. The revelation of the Osgood Box is brilliant, and a very well done reveal by Harness and Moffat that I did not see coming – of course there isn't one Osgood Box. There are two.  And of course the arc words from the very beginning of the first episode of this story would come back into play.   Here is where Peter Capaldi shines. After an episode-and-a-half of having relatively little to do, the Doctor comes roaring out of the booth and nails his hatred at the futility of war. The Doctor has seen war in all its forms – the beginning of war, war in progress, the end of war, and he's done his best to stop them all, to minimize the damage and the casualties. The Time War is where it all changed, where the man who was always seen as a healer and a peacemaker proceeded to do things so against his nature that thousands of years later, he still sees the consequences when he closes his eyes. Here is a man speaking from centuries of experience, someone who has seen the most beautiful and horrific things (often at the same time), and as long as there is the thinnest chance at peace, he will do all he can to grab a hold of that thread and pull it for all its worth. That's the Doctor in a nutshell – he knows when evil must be fought (the Daleks, the Cybermen) and when peace should be given a chance. I wish I could put into words just how easily Capaldi relates this concept to Bonnie and Kate, all the pain and anguish mixed in with the faintest of hopes.  The Osgood Boxes are war boiled down to its basic form – one button leads to peace, the other button leads to utter destruction. Before war, peace exists. After war, utter destruction exists...and so does peace. Why experience utter destruction and massive death if peace is the end result in both the case of war and no war? And what if the Zygons get what they want? What them? It's the question all revolutions should ask – once your goals are achieved, then what? The Doctor has been there before, and while he could force peace upon both the humans and the Zygons, he instead decides to set the parameters and allow the two sides to choose peace and negotiation – much like the cease-fire negotiations during The Day of the Doctor. War is a hard decision. Peace is even harder.   It's a lovely scene, a monologue (well...is there a word for 10 minutes of Capaldi being wonderful mixed in with occasional interjection from Coleman and Redgrave?) that Capaldi delivers in a straight forward, honest, almost anguished manner. And while I watched it, I was enthralled as both UNIT and the Zygons chose peace. But... ...Bonnie just calls the militant Zygons off. That's it? There's no repercussions for her or the rest of Zygon High Command, a group who killed UNIT soldiers left and right, kidnapped English civilians in order to copy them, and caused another Zygon to commit suicide, but they walk off scot free? I mean, I would think that UNIT would want some kind of assurance or way to ensure the peace is kept... ...except the Doctor wiped Kate Stewart's mind so she's not aware that the Osgood Boxes are truly empty. Aside from the simple fact that THE DOCTOR WOULD NEVER HAVE DONE THAT TO THE GENTLY CARRESSING BRIGADIER, it's the casual way that he states “I've done this fifteen times before.” Fifteen times the Zygons and UNIT have been at each others' throats? Fifteen times he's casually wiped Kate's mind? It's way too flippant and way too open ended...especially since, you know, you're letting a known terrorist walk away knowing that you don't have a final option. It's just too pat. For a two-parter that drops a whole lot of anvils about the topic of xenophobia, assimilation, and terrorism as a means to an end, the conclusion just plays it a little too safe. There should have been more to the negotiations, or perhaps some mention of peaceful protests/ongoing discussions by the Zygons to ensure their voices are heard. Instead, all of their (somewhat legitimate) demands are dropped by both sides, and they're just going go their merry way and everything will be all sunshine and rainbows... ...just like the fifteen times before?  I get the television production concerns of 20 million Zygons living in the United Kingdom when Doctor Who keeps ending up there – you can't have a random Zygon extra just wandering in the background – but for a story trying to deliver a strong message, The Zygon Inversion falls apart after the credits roll. Really, if it wasn't for Peter Capaldi's brilliant performance that cuts to the heart of what it means to be the Doctor there would be strong consideration that The Zygon Invasion/The Zygon Inversion would be the weakest episode of Twelve's run. It's definitely the weakest episode this season, which is a bit of a downer as it's the episode that has the most to say. Random Thoughts - Basil Puntastic. Doctor John Disco. Thick McRunfast. Bob Johnson. - “I'm over 2000 years old. I'm old enough to be your Messiah!” - I liked the Zygon morphing effects. It seemed like the Zygon inside was bursting out of the human balloon - TARDIS now stands for Totally And Radically Driving In Space - Two Osgoods? I can't begin to tell you what I'm thinking right now.  Cobi's Synopsis - The denouement breaks down the more you think about it, so just did back and enjoy the final 10 minutes of The Zygon Inversion as Peter Capaldi puts on his best performance this season. Next up - Terrifying footage is discovered in the wreckage of Le Verrier Space Station. … Peter Capaldi is the Doctor in...Sleep No More. CobiWann fucked around with this message at 02:00 on Nov 9, 2015 |
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Nov 8, 2015 22:47
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MrL_JaKiri posted:The Macra Terror I've watched none of those (aside from Vengeance on Varos) but I assume the violence supported by the Doctor is not of the human/Zygon genocide kind.
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Nov 8, 2015 22:56
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 It’s time for…  THE 2015 DOCTOR WHO THREAD SECRET SANTA! Yes, it’s that time of the year again! If you're new to this Secret Santa malarkey, we all throw our names into my hat, receive a random name, and send that person a lovely gift of Transformers goodies, toys, candy, maybe some booze, and all around a big ol' ball of holiday cheer! It's fun, trust me. No really.  SIGNING UP: 1 )First thing, sign up here: http://goo.gl/forms/ldaiubFMd7 If you find you are having problems, email me at doctorwhosecretsanta [at] gmail [dot] com In the subject, please include the tag [DWSS] as I am running another Secret Santa and don’t want to confuse the two. 2) Post in this thread! Tell us what kinds of stuff you're into! Once Santas are assigned, we're all going to be trying to figure each other out, so some healthy conversation will help things go smoothly. 3) DEADLINE: The deadline for sign-ups is SUNDAY NOVEMBER 15TH! #SAVETHEDAY Assignments will go out shortly thereafter. 4) BUDGET: Somewhere in the $25-$30 (£15-20) range (before shipping). You're welcome to spend more, but that's no guarantee you'll get that much in return. Gag gifts are cool, but please include some kind of actual gift. 5) COLLEGE STUDENTS: Remember that these gifts will likely go out around the holiday break, so be mindful of which address you give me. If you have any concerns about packages being stolen from your doorstep, use the address of your work/friend/parents, just so long as it's cool with them. 4) INTERNATIONAL SHIPPING: If you sign up for this, you are agreeing to the possibility of getting an international address. The USPS international price calculator can be found here. 5) SHIPPING DEADLINES: • International - Tuesday December 15th (This is the UK to US last shipping date, so I'd imagine the same is true vice versa) • Within the same country - Friday December 18th 6) WHEN YOUR GIFT ARRIVES: Show us your loot! Take pictures! You can wait until Christmas morning if you want, but still, show us all the awesome goodies your Santa brought you. 7) LATE PACKAGES: If you haven't received your gift by January 1st, let me know so I can look into it. If you haven't SENT your gift by December 17th, let me know so I can contact your recipient. 8) DON'T BE A DEADBEAT: If you sign up, please get your person something. Nobody likes a deadbeat santa. 9) FINALLY: A Merry Christmas to all of you at home! 
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Nov 8, 2015 22:58
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The "trouble" here is that the show takes a very simplistic approach to a very complex issue. This is perhaps by necessity, though it does raise the question of whether it would have been better not to tackle the issue at all. Obviously in the context of the show, the expectation is that we believe/agree with the idea that the Zygon splinter-group were simple reactionaries pushing for a fight because they were immature and hadn't thought through any of the consequences - they're explicitly referred to as the "younger brood" in the first story, not as intimately familiar with the horrors the older generations faced after losing their homeworld. Even though we only see one "regular" Zygon, the idea is clearly that he is meant to represent the "majority view", though as others have mentioned it draws some uncomfortable parallels with the idea of,"Well my one black friend...." If we take the episode purely at face value, it's a rather uplifting story about how the Doctor forces a radical, thoughtlessly violent person to actually stop and think, and more importantly that once you get two sides into the same room and they talk to each other they start to realize that they're not so different, that they have more in common than not. But they really should have made more of the human side of the equation - the scene with the two boxes is meant to be balanced by the fact that Kate is just as willing to use her box as Bonnie is, and that the two are equally culpable in the potential start of a war that will kill millions (and pretty much guaranteed to wipe out the Zygons entirely). Too much emphasis is put on the Doctor pleading with Bonnie, Kate kind of gets away with being her mirror image, and in fact comes across as more heroic/noble because she is the first to stand down and choose not to use her box. The Zygon splinter group is painted too clearly in the role of the villains (particularly with the use of the ISIS imagery in episode 1) and the emphasis is more on their moment of revelation, on Bonnie standing down and accepting the status quo. I think there should have been some sort of mention of Kate and Bonnie going back into negotiations to address Zygon concerns and acknowledge that the humans had done some hosed up things in the way they handled assimilation, but instead Bonnie just gets slotted into the pre-existing system that she herself revolted against initially. The idea that she is able to give a fresh perspective is a nice one, but the Doctor's (rather beautiful) plea to them to talk and think kind of gets glossed over and what we actually see suggests that things just go back to exactly the way they were before - mostly unavoidable given the story is based explicitly in modern day London and they wouldn't be able to make any visible changes, but at least a few lines here and there might have helped to get the sense that there was more going on behind the scenes. On an unrelated note, anyone else think it was pretty lovely of the Doctor and Osgood to abandon that captive Zygon, the pilot and presumably the commander and whatever soldiers she had left who might have been onboard to die in the plane explosion? Again, I think that was more a matter of the writer forgetting about them once their scenes were done - Harness tackles some interesting issues which in turn get some fun discussion going, but unfortunately I think his reach exceeds his grasp. CobiWann posted:It's just too pat. For a two-parter that drops a whole lot of anvils about the topic of xenophobia, assimilation, and terrorism as a means to an end, the conclusion just plays it a little too safe. There should have been more to the negotiations, or perhaps some mention of peaceful protests/ongoing discussions by the Zygons to ensure their voices are heard. Instead, all of their (somewhat legitimate) demands are dropped by both sides, and they're just going go their merry way and everything will be all sunshine and rainbows... Even one line about ongoing discussions would have been welcome, just to suggest that the peace-settlement is an ongoing, evolving thing and not just set in stone. Because if it is the latter, they're just going to find themselves in that room with those boxes again and again and again. The "15 times before" line is meant to evoke a sense of hope, that the humans and the Zygons keep coming to the brink and then choosing the better path.... but if the status quo never, ever changes, then "15 times before" becomes a dark portent for the future - this poo poo will just keep happening and resetting forever. I prefer the former, more optimistic take and I think that is what is intended, but just one line would have helped so much. Jerusalem fucked around with this message at 23:11 on Nov 8, 2015 |
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Nov 8, 2015 22:58
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You summed up my issues with the episode really well. The episode is too simplistic in its depiction of its dilemma, and it's not entirely clear to me whether Harness wrote it that way out of political conviction or just because he can't make it any more involved.Jerusalem posted:The "15 times before" line is meant to evoke a sense of hope, that the humans and the Zygons keep coming to the brink and then choosing the better path.... but if the status quo never, ever changes, then "15 times before" becomes a dark portent for the future - this poo poo will just keep happening and resetting forever. That's one of those things that stands out to me in particular because in Kill the Moon there was a similar exchange: quote:DOCTOR: You made your decision. Humanity made its choice. that almost ends up revealing the whole resolution to be a bunch of bullshit. I wonder if he's doing this intentionally. It's really hard to tell. And More fucked around with this message at 23:36 on Nov 8, 2015 |
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Nov 8, 2015 23:32
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The_Doctor posted:It’s time for… I may actually join up for one of these this year! It always seemed like a nice idea and it's in the spirit and all that. I just hope if I do, I can think of a good enough thing to give someone.
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Nov 8, 2015 23:50
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Blindly stumbling into the thread, may I ask if the current season's gone to poo poo or not?
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Nov 8, 2015 23:57
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Grouchio posted:Blindly stumbling into the thread, may I ask if the current season's gone to poo poo or not? It's been good but nothing spectacular so far - just mostly solid episodes with a few standout moments. The worst episode so far was last week's.
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Nov 8, 2015 23:59
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Grouchio posted:Blindly stumbling into the thread, may I ask if the current season's gone to poo poo or not? Series 9 has been all over the place. I'm still not sure whether I like it. There definitely hasn't been some kind of unforgivable blunder, though.
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Nov 9, 2015 00:05
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Jerusalem posted:It's been good but nothing spectacular so far - just mostly solid episodes with a few standout moments. The worst episode so far was last week's. loving Osgood. That loving homage and moffat's rear end-kissing to a useless side-plot from the anniversary. *sugh*
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Nov 9, 2015 00:09
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Osgood right at he end still refused to tell the Doctor if she'd been the human or zygon one all along. But then another Osgood arrives and says there was a vacancy to fill. Congratulations, we don't know which of you two is which but you've just given away the answer to who was around for the last 2 weeks (the human cos zygon was dead, this would be stupid and pointless if you were both zygon now).
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Nov 9, 2015 00:11
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No it wouldn't.
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Nov 9, 2015 00:22
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Can a zygon copy a human form from another zygon?
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Nov 9, 2015 00:24
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Cerv posted:Osgood right at he end still refused to tell the Doctor if she'd been the human or zygon one all along. But then another Osgood arrives and says there was a vacancy to fill. Congratulations, we don't know which of you two is which but you've just given away the answer to who was around for the last 2 weeks (the human cos zygon was dead, this would be stupid and pointless if you were both zygon now). Unless it's completely unimportant whether one of them is human as long as there are two Osgoods. In that case, they could both be Zygons. Tempo 119 posted:Can a zygon copy a human form from another zygon? They said during the first episode that the human original wasn't actually needed for anything other than memories.
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Nov 9, 2015 00:26
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OldMemes posted:Well they must have gotten to Earth somehow. Earth took the zygons in - a race who previously attacked Earth, remember and gave them all identies, with the only condition being "please disguise yourself, aside from, that, you're good", then a few radicals try and ruin that? The Doctor should have kicked the radicals off earth - if they can't respect the humans or the majority of peaceful zygon's wishes, why should they get to speak for the entire species? The episodes goes to great efforts to show that most zygons are against the plan, and are actively treating the rebels as criminals. He should have put Bonnie on an uninhabited planet as irnonic punishment, in a "you wanted to force your will on the world? here you go, here's an entire planet for you, go nuts". The radicals became radicals after some of them were murdered by humans, remember? Humans fired the first shot. One Zygon lost control of it's form and was killed, but that wasn't the only one. In the police station we see that several of them were killed. As part of a group of British people that all dropped into town together it was easy to identify them even if they held their disguises. Friends, family members, people they've known all their lives are getting gunned down by panicked americans, and no one is coming to help them. No one is going to stop it. When Bonnie has members of UNIT killed she says "Kill the traitors" not "Kill the humans." She feels betrayed by UNIT, the humans who authored the agreement and were supposed to keep them safe. They are only 2 years old, which for their species is physically and cognitively adults, but they still have very little life experience. I think the Doctor's plan is to try to hold the situation together and prevent all out war until the newborn Zygons accumulate the life experience to make good decisions. Bonnie and her crew still aren't happy with the way things have gone, but now they are thinking like adults, not angry adolescents. They are trying to make things work, rather than tear them down. They know what went wrong in New Mexico, so they can be on the lookout for similar situations and try to head off future crisis points. That makes them more useful on Earth than in exile. Yeah, this time around 7000 people died, mostly human. But that's still better than the millions on both sides who would die if all out war breaks out.
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Nov 9, 2015 00:30
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And More posted:Series 9 has been all over the place. I'm still not sure whether I like it. There definitely hasn't been some kind of unforgivable blunder, though. I've enjoyed it but for me it's all going to hinge on Clara's departure and how the Doctor handles it, which - if this season so far has been any indication - might be 'poorly' at best.
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Nov 9, 2015 00:37
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Cerv posted:Osgood right at he end still refused to tell the Doctor if she'd been the human or zygon one all along. But then another Osgood arrives and says there was a vacancy to fill. Congratulations, we don't know which of you two is which but you've just given away the answer to who was around for the last 2 weeks (the human cos zygon was dead, this would be stupid and pointless if you were both zygon now). The point is that there are two Osgoods - one is definitely a Zygon, the other one MIGHT be a Zygon OR a human, and that is the important thing. They can't judge her/dismiss her as "one of them" because she might be one of their own - Is she a human saying all this nice stuff about cooperation/togetherness or is she a Zygon? They don't know, and that is important, and as Osgood says she'll only reveal which she is when the answer is no longer important, when all humans and Zygons look at each other as equals and not "us vs them". For me, I think it would be quite wonderful if the pairing meant to represent the peace between human and Zygon was actually two Zygons.
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Nov 9, 2015 00:40
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Grouchio posted:Blindly stumbling into the thread, may I ask if the current season's gone to poo poo or not? It's mostly been kinda "meh". I don't think the experimentation with a season consisting of two parters (barring next week's stand alone) has been that successful - the pacing has completely hosed most of the episodes, either with excessive padding in the first parts, and then a break-neck hurdle to resolve poo poo in the second part, or just fizzles out. There's been nothing that's plunged the depths to be as bad as series 8's Forest of the Night or Kill the Moon - though The Zygon Invasion (from the writer of KtM) has received the most divisive thread reaction due to its overt political...well it's too blunt to be called subtext... an allegory, I guess. Conversely (and personally), I also don't think there's been any outstanding episodes on the level of Flatline, or Mummy, in this series either - though Under the Lake was pretty great. The series arc term has been talk of a "prophesied hybrid", and it's been very awkwardly shoe-horned into a majority of the episodes. It's hard to tell where they're going with it at the moment...and even harder to give a gently caress about it. 
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Nov 9, 2015 00:46
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