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Just edit your post and replace CIA with ~some type of intelligence analyst position~.
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Oct 6, 2015 09:03
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We have certainly talked about intelligence analysis positions in the thread before; I believe the consensus was that while technically you can get such a position as a civilian, realistically since the military is one of the only places you can get that kind of experience you are not likely to get considered for even entry-level stuff without that background. I am still just mad that the Coast Guard age cutoff was "the exact age I had just passed when I decided to seriously consider enlisting." I am vague because for all I know they subsequently raised it and I never heard and now I would be staring into the sunset crying.
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Oct 6, 2015 12:59
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Justus posted:So rather than a question about GETTING Federal Employment, here's a question about LEAVING it, for a change. Report this to your local ethics officer if you are considering it. Contractors are big on sniping contract related people, DCMA especially. They usually wind up in positions interfacing with government where they can use their knowledge of government rules and processes as well as connections to smooth things over for the contractor. Be very aware that no matter what they say up front this is likely what they want you to do in the long run. And you will probably also hear "Justus, you worked DCMA... Isn't there someone you can call? We need them to understand our position, and this drat COR just won't listen! JLENS really does work from the ground, you need to explain that to them!" Also, not leaving before completing the internship is the best way to go. You will graduate into competitive service and if you ever want to go back it will be easier for you. There is design work happening in the DoD, too, where I work does a good deal of it. If you wind up staying look around a bit, once you graduate your dev program you can go just about anywhere in DoD at least. Though I doubt you will have any problems leaving and working for Raytheon so long as your talk to your ethics officer and clear it with them first, and get a list of programs at Raytheon that you are not allowed to work on for the next two years (basically anything you worked on in government unless they grant a waiver).
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Oct 6, 2015 15:15
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Question on career tracks: If I get hired for a GS 9/11/12 track at GS 9 (Master's Degree), then after a year I'm eligible to promotion to GS 11, right? So how common is it to be promoted after a year to the next level? Is this "theoretically possible but in practice never happens unless you're a Yale/Harvard grad with lots of experience, genius ideas and incriminating pictures of your boss," "probable if you're reasonably high performing, say top 30% or so", or "likely unless you're a gently caress-up"? If it depends on the agency/department (I would assume it does), how much variance is there between departments?
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Oct 6, 2015 16:09
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HisMajestyBOB posted:Question on career tracks: If I get hired for a GS 9/11/12 track at GS 9 (Master's Degree), then after a year I'm eligible to promotion to GS 11, right? So how common is it to be promoted after a year to the next level? Is this "theoretically possible but in practice never happens unless you're a Yale/Harvard grad with lots of experience, genius ideas and incriminating pictures of your boss," "probable if you're reasonably high performing, say top 30% or so", or "likely unless you're a gently caress-up"? Within the DOD it's all but guaranteed. If you're doing enough work to not be fired, it will happen.
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Oct 6, 2015 16:12
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While that was true, and maybe still is in many places, USCIS seems just a few months ago to switched to the "Career Ladder" system, where ultimately your supervisor has to agree that you are performing at a level expected of someone in the next highest grade level. Which is a very strange concept if you do literally the same work at every grade level. But the point is it used to be automatic after a year and now is not. And they also changed my position to be 9/11/12 instead of 5/7/9, but... you only get one guess as to whether that change applies to current 9s.
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Oct 6, 2015 19:37
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Thanks for this. I think I'd like to stay in the government. I like the stability, benefits, and work life balance. It would be nice to actually enjoy 4 weeks of vacation for awhile, and I need at least 5 years of service to defer a pension too. I didn't know there were dev jobs in the DoD. Do you know which agencies/grades? Like, what should I look for in USAjobs listings? I look at series 854 jobs sometimes but never seem to see anything obviously like that. Do 855s or whatever the comp sci series is do more FPGA stuff?
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Oct 6, 2015 20:30
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Quarex posted:While that was true, and maybe still is in many places, USCIS seems just a few months ago to switched to the "Career Ladder" system, where ultimately your supervisor has to agree that you are performing at a level expected of someone in the next highest grade level. Which is a very strange concept if you do literally the same work at every grade level. With the way performance reviews go in the government, you would have to be in a very bad situation for your supervisor to not agree.
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Oct 6, 2015 22:00
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So I'm 19 and a dual Canadian-US citizen. I'm a legal resident of California, spend my summers here, and fly on my American passport regularly. However, I also possess a Canadian passport and am currently attending a Canadian university for my Undergraduate Degree in Political Science, specializing in MENA security issues. I was born in the United States and my mother is a Canadian citizen. When my parents split as a child my mother had custody so I went to school in Canada. I've never voted in Canada, never owned property in Canada, and the only benefits I've received from the Canadian government were a $2000 automatic scholarship due to high grades in High School and some investments in a Canadian Tax Free Savings Account. I'm planning on moving to the United States fulltime (rather than just being here part of the year) after I graduate to pursue (probably) a JD or a Masters, and after that I'm hoping to apply for work with the federal government. Alternatively if the military changes their policy on transgender people in the military I'd consider trying to go for the OCS or something like that. Am I screwed out of any job that would require a security clearance? The Iron Rose fucked around with this message at 10:11 on Oct 7, 2015 |
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Oct 7, 2015 10:04
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Cat Army 
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The Iron Rose posted:So I'm 19 and a dual Canadian-US citizen. I'm a legal resident of California, spend my summers here, and fly on my American passport regularly. However, I also possess a Canadian passport and am currently attending a Canadian university for my Undergraduate Degree in Political Science, specializing in MENA security issues. I was born in the United States and my mother is a Canadian citizen. When my parents split as a child my mother had custody so I went to school in Canada. I've never voted in Canada, never owned property in Canada, and the only benefits I've received from the Canadian government were a $2000 automatic scholarship due to high grades in High School and some investments in a Canadian Tax Free Savings Account. I'm planning on moving to the United States after I graduate to pursue (probably) a JD or a Masters, and after that I'm hoping to apply for work with the federal government. Alternatively if the military changes their policy on transgender people in the military I'd consider trying to go for the OCS or something like that. Im not an expert, but from my understanding as long as you have never exercised or acted using your rights as a Canadian citizen you could potentially get a clearance. Not having voted and not owning property are both good signs you don't hold a preference but having a passport is bad. Whether you have ever used or recently used the passport would probably be relevant. I know just being a dual citizen alone won't always disqualify you.
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Oct 7, 2015 10:10
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hitachi posted:Im not an expert, but from my understanding as long as you have never exercised or acted using your rights as a Canadian citizen you could potentially get a clearance. Not having voted and not owning property are both good signs you don't hold a preference but having a passport is bad. Whether you have ever used or recently used the passport would probably be relevant. I've used my Canadian passport for flying just recently. I updated my information (name/gender change) on my US passport literally yesterday and am now waiting to get the new US passport, but I can stop using it as soon as I get the new passport book (so in 4-6 weeks). I also figure not updating my Canadian information vis a vis the transgender stuff would probably help as well? I realize these are kinda broad questions without specific answers though especially since I'm only in third year undergrad looking at potentially applying years in the future. Still for the purposes of applying in the future the less I use my Canadian documentation and the longer it's been since I've used it the better, which is why I'm asking now.
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Oct 7, 2015 10:16
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You can get away with a lot more with Five Eyes countries like Canada. Like you said, no specific answers, and it will really depend on how you discuss it with the clearance investigator and how you demonstrate your loyalty to the US as opposed to Canada, but you have much more leeway with Canada than almost any other country.
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Oct 7, 2015 12:26
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Quarex posted:While that was true, and maybe still is in many places, USCIS seems just a few months ago to switched to the "Career Ladder" system, where ultimately your supervisor has to agree that you are performing at a level expected of someone in the next highest grade level. Which is a very strange concept if you do literally the same work at every grade level. It's almost like the government is just fine paying GS-11(or lower) wages to people doing GS-13 work!! A month after finally getting my grade 12 and I am considering leaving for the private sector. Given the constant budget cuts to my agency I have a feeling I will be spending a long time here doing the same job I've been doing since GS-7 and hoping a 13 opens up, while the job I am waiting to hear back from would be a 50% increase in salary. Yes, you give up the defined benefit pension but if you're max salary potential at the government is only low 100's after decades of work I think it's worth it. Edit: counting the time I was first hired and the time I applied for and received a promotion (but continued to sit at the same desk in the same group doing the same work) I am now 2/30 for successful applications. heated game moment fucked around with this message at 14:49 on Oct 7, 2015 |
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Oct 7, 2015 14:43
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I am still sitting at 1/~275. Tell me your tales of what it is like to have marketable skills! My alternative career path was academia, though, so the idea of hitting 100k someday sounds like a silly fantasy rather than a limitation.
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Oct 8, 2015 04:20
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Justus posted:Thanks for this. I think I'd like to stay in the government. I like the stability, benefits, and work life balance. It would be nice to actually enjoy 4 weeks of vacation for awhile, and I need at least 5 years of service to defer a pension too. You'll probably have to look at things under the services before you see much design work. I'm an army civilian, and there's a good amount of design and pure research at the different RDECs and ARL. A lot of times you'll see people at an RDEC matrixed out to a PM shop for specific programs. Definitely look into CERDEC and CECOM - they have a huge campus at APG and I've worked with a few people there who do real engineering
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Oct 10, 2015 16:58
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Kolodny, can you discuss what part of that org you work for or do? Sounds interesting.
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Oct 10, 2015 18:30
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I was re-reading the first post for the first time probably since actually getting my job, and the section about how nice it is to be able to hop from one department to another and do a similar job made me wonder--is there a better way to find "comparable jobs in other agencies" besides doing a job search by GS-series? Obviously it would be easy for some people here, like when your keyword search would have the word "engineer" or "IT specialist" or "pipefitter lol" in it, but immigration seems so weirdly specific that it makes me wonder if anything other than Department of State consular posts would actually use related skills. Maybe criminal investigation desk job or something, I mean, we use like 2 or 3 of the 100 databases law enforcement uses; that counts for something, right? Edit: In the process of trying to figure out if my application history gave me any useful information in this regard, I noticed you can download a spreadsheet of your application history from USAJobs now. This is awesome, now that I sorted by job series I can see that all my applications were basically in 01XX, 03XX, and 18XX! That counts as an underwhelming but still valid answer to my question! Wooo! Also sorting by status is good for amusing outlier entries. My favorites are the succinct "Eligible ?" and "Not Hired." 
Dr. Quarex fucked around with this message at 21:24 on Oct 10, 2015 |
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Oct 10, 2015 20:58
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Quick question, I'm applying for a GS-5 position with the GSA. A cover letter isnt required, but would it be recommended that I submit one anyway?
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Oct 12, 2015 06:02
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It doesn't matter and has no bearing on whether or not you proceed to the next step. All that matters is your resume, answers to any questions asked when you apply, and that you attached the required documentation before the close date of the position.
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Oct 12, 2015 14:49
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Most government job applications should usually include what's asked for, anything extra usually has no baring to those initially processing the application and gets tossed.
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Oct 12, 2015 18:27
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Yeah even the absolute worst federal hiring discussion I have ever been part of, where one of the presenters constantly contradicted all of the conventional wisdom and even the unconventional wisdom of federal hiring, the presenter still only said that "sometimes" they look at cover letters. Not exactly a ringing endorsement of the practice. Certainly there are jobs out there that ask for them, particularly if you are applying for a non-USAJobs job; I think I still have a half-dozen cover letters I wrote for FBI postings over the years, all of which were obviously horrible failures.
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Oct 12, 2015 19:34
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Quarex posted:We have certainly talked about intelligence analysis positions in the thread before; I believe the consensus was that while technically you can get such a position as a civilian, realistically since the military is one of the only places you can get that kind of experience you are not likely to get considered for even entry-level stuff without that background. for strategic level analysis, which is what most laypeople are probably thinking, a bachelors degree is just as competitive. There is a slight DoD agency preference toward veterans, given hiring laws, but there are plenty of people within DoD three letters with no prior military experience. CIA gets to ignore some OPM HR standards, but I'm not sure whether they give veterans preference for hiring or not. Experience wise a military vet isn't going to have THAT much of a leg up. Your average service intel analyst (army, navy, af, marines, etc) are doing fairly specialized service-related stuff that isn't transferable to strategic level analysis. Another way to think about this is that strategic level intel analysis is remarkably similar to what a journalist or a political scientist academic will produce. There are obvious differences in WHO they are writing for that then drives some important day to day changes, but fundamentally all three jobs are about taking disparate pieces of information, thinking deeply about what all that data actually means, and then preparing those conclusions for a consumer. Prior service does help with that, but being a foreign correspondent for a newspaper, or even almost any published writer in general, will have a greater leg up than an air force analyst deeply versed in targeting minutia, an army analyst who can whip up a MCOO, or a naval analyst doing whatever happens within an N2 shop. Happydayz fucked around with this message at 23:15 on Oct 12, 2015 |
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Oct 12, 2015 23:11
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Sounds good, thanks for the advice guys.
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Oct 13, 2015 03:54
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Happydayz posted:for strategic level analysis, which is what most laypeople are probably thinking, a bachelors degree is just as competitive. There is a slight DoD agency preference toward veterans, given hiring laws, but there are plenty of people within DoD three letters with no prior military experience. CIA gets to ignore some OPM HR standards, but I'm not sure whether they give veterans preference for hiring or not. Unrelated: Are you supposed to use your USAJobs résumé for (detail) applications that are done through e-mail? My Person On The Inside says it probably does not matter, but whenever a detail opportunity comes up and is like "just e-mail your qualifications to this person, whatever, just get it done and shut up" I always think they want it to be hyper-compressed one-page-style, but I have also heard the opposite argued. I bet "it depends," huh
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Oct 15, 2015 01:10
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Quarex posted:I appreciate this, I had never heard that there was any reason to keep hope alive until now. Since you basically described me in passing as what a strategic-level intelligence analyst does. Hmm. I should reconsider my plans and go talk to the DHS Guidance Counselor about what I want to be when I Job-Grow-Up. Just be prepared - IC jobs are extremely competitive, especially coming from outside the government and without experience. Having an executive referral (from a general officer or SES level senior civil servant) helps a TON, an in house recommendation also helps but is not nearly as decisive. Just throw your name into the resume pile and hope that you get lucky. Don't plan on it though, chances are slim with 500+ applicants for one open job vacancy being common. If you ever have the opportunity to attend an IC agency organized hiring fair, absolutely shot up. Hiring managers are empowered to make same-day conditional offers through this streamlined process. quote:Unrelated: Are you supposed to use your USAJobs résumé for (detail) applications that are done through e-mail? My Person On The Inside says it probably does not matter, but whenever a detail opportunity comes up and is like "just e-mail your qualifications to this person, whatever, just get it done and shut up" I always think they want it to be hyper-compressed one-page-style, but I have also heard the opposite argued. I bet "it depends," huh It's stupid. Your resume needs to make it past HR screeners. If they are using automated software then length is better. Even if they are reading it in person length might still be better; they have a scorecard and are marking off resume bullets that add points to your overall score. HR's job is take the ~500 or ~1000 resumes that come in and whittle it to a more manageable number (~50ish?) for the actual hiring manager or hiring board. So resumes are racked and stacked, and every resume above a certain cut off get forwarded. However, brevity probably helps once you are past the HR screen . Your resume is now being looked at by a hiring manager (GS-14 or GS-15 manager who will either be within your rating chain or at least directly part of your organizational structure). These guys have every incentive to hire a good candidate as they'll be working with them day in or day out. What they end up getting is one giant .pdf with every resume scanned into it. So basically a monster 500+ pg pdf of resume, one after the other. In this case being short and sweet is helpful. This is for resumes sent into USAJobs. A hiring fair has the hiring manager identifying which applicants he wants to meet in person during the fair. All of those applicants will get invited, along with every other invitee, and those applicants can go around meeting multiple hiring managers, even those who didn't initially select them, and potentially leave with a conditional offer made that day. This is better for everyone. One caveat - these are just examples. Practices can vary both between and within agencies. To directly answer your question - if your person on the inside is saying "just e-mail your qualifications to person X", then I personally would not e-mail me shitily formatted USAjobs resume and instead send my regular civilian resume. It sounds like you are skipping the horrible HR screening step and going straight to a hiring manager. If he really likes you that hiring manager can ask HR to send your resume through the hiring screen. That way, all the process boxes are checked, but the hiring manager can still formally interview/consider someone he got as a recommendation.
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Oct 17, 2015 15:57
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HisMajestyBOB posted:Question on career tracks: If I get hired for a GS 9/11/12 track at GS 9 (Master's Degree), then after a year I'm eligible to promotion to GS 11, right? So how common is it to be promoted after a year to the next level? Is this "theoretically possible but in practice never happens unless you're a Yale/Harvard grad with lots of experience, genius ideas and incriminating pictures of your boss," "probable if you're reasonably high performing, say top 30% or so", or "likely unless you're a gently caress-up"? Likely, unless you're a gently caress up. Ladder promotions are a formality in a lot of agencies (including mine, and I work in HR).
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Nov 7, 2015 18:24
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Only time I have seen people not get their ladder promotions is when they are total fuckups. Often half fuckups still get them.
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Nov 9, 2015 05:56
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So if I could theoretically get a 5/15 job I could get in the door making ~30k and rocket to 6 figures in 5 years? And its practically gauranteed? How do the steps play into yearly bumps? Do you only go through steps once youve maxed out your ladder? rockamiclikeavandal fucked around with this message at 13:53 on Nov 10, 2015 |
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Nov 10, 2015 13:46
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rockamiclikeavandal posted:So if I could theoretically get a 5/15 job I could get in the door making ~30k and rocket to 6 figures in 5 years? And its practically gauranteed? You won't get step increases because you are eligible for the step and grade increases at the same time and the grade increases are much larger. You would need to be about step 4 in a grade to move into the next grade at step 2 per the OPM rules. 5/15 jobs don't exist as far as I know. 7/12 is the largest jump I've ever seen. 12/13 and 13/14 exist but usually anything ending above a 12 would only be one grade at a time. A ton of people just out of college enter under 7/12 or 7/11 because someone with 5 years work experience is worth twice as much as one just out of college.
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Nov 10, 2015 14:13
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This is the 5/15 I was looking at. https://www.usajobs.gov/GetJob/ViewDetails/420075300 Just seems crazy you can swing ay that much in 5 years.
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Nov 10, 2015 14:35
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rockamiclikeavandal posted:This is the 5/15 I was looking at. If you are eligible for that job you should sure-as-poo poo apply. A 5->15 ladder is unheard of, jump on that pronto holy poo poo
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Nov 10, 2015 14:43
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I need to get back on the inside something fierce, but I don't qualify for any of the reinstatement stuff. Right now I'm contracting at a GS-12 equivalent, but I think OPM is just shitcanning most of my applications before I even get to the BQ list because they are under-rating my experience. Is there a good way to find out exactly which checkboxes I'm failing to hit on an application so I can rejigger my resume to at least hit the BQ list (when the things aren't monopolized by Vets, a thing that happens in my office a lot)?
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Nov 10, 2015 14:52
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rockamiclikeavandal posted:This is the 5/15 I was looking at. I'm not sure where you're getting that it's a five year ladder from 5 to 15. It reads to me like a bucket for EHA positions that can be anywhere from 5 to 15. The announcement doesn't necessarily reflect the paperwork you might sign on a job offer. Still, never hurts to apply.
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Nov 10, 2015 15:01
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I have an interview for a position that was listed as 14/15. I'm qualified for 15 based on private sector experience, and on the application questionnaire I meet all the requirements for 15. But I checked 14 as the lowest grade I would consider. Prior to the interview, I got the notification that I was rated 100 for 14 and 15. After scheduling the interview, I received a second notification letter that I am qualified at Grade 15 and being referred to the hiring official (this one said nothing about 14 at all). Obviously I will be asking to be hired at 15 and as high a step in-grade as possible to match current salary, though a good chunk of income is a bonus based on productivity so not part of base pay. I assume they will not consider "bonuses" when looking at matching, even though it's very common in the industry (lawyer). I presume since they have deemed me qualified, if they have the budget for it they would hire me at 15. But I'm so used to the private sector mentality of "let's pay them the absolute minimum possible." Has anyone dealt with this type of situation, a position at two possible grades? If they list it at both, are they funded for both or looking to get someone cheap? Are they willing to pay what they ordinarily pay at a certain level of experience? "It depends"?
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Nov 10, 2015 16:54
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Kolodny posted:I'm not sure where you're getting that it's a five year ladder from 5 to 15. It reads to me like a bucket for EHA positions that can be anywhere from 5 to 15. The announcement doesn't necessarily reflect the paperwork you might sign on a job offer.
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Nov 10, 2015 17:29
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For an engineer position with specialized skills I could see a GS15 promotion ladder but I highly doubt you would come in as a GS5 unless you got in straight out of school with 0 experience and with less than a 3.0 GPA. 15s are pretty damned rare in my agency unfortunately, or at least you aren't likely to get one without 20+ years of experience.Phil Moscowitz posted:I have an interview for a position that was listed as 14/15. I'm qualified for 15 based on private sector experience, and on the application questionnaire I meet all the requirements for 15. But I checked 14 as the lowest grade I would consider. Yes it's funded and yes if you best qualified for both the 14 and the 15 they should hire you as the 15 off the bat. If you can show your previous earnings they may give you some extra steps. I wouldn't bring up the fact that it's bonus just show them your W2 or something with the total. It sounds like since you were qualified as a 15 and referred that it will be a non-issue. Of course your specific agency may differ but this has been my experience.
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Nov 10, 2015 17:37
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Dislike button posted:
Great, thanks for the information!
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Nov 10, 2015 17:48
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Thanks for the info. I am still earning how to read these announcements. 7/11 provides some pretty low salary for an engineer. To be blunt, I dont know why would anyone take these jobs? If you dont have a nice payoff on the back end rockamiclikeavandal fucked around with this message at 19:41 on Nov 10, 2015 |
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Nov 10, 2015 19:09
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The DoD engineering announcements are always worded poorly. In reality, it's a non compete ladder from GS-05 to GS-12 with competitive promotional potential to 15.
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Nov 10, 2015 19:39
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rockamiclikeavandal posted:Thanks for the info. I am still earning how to read these announcements. They can be more or less competitive depending on the location and specialty. Locality pay is a joke in any major city but a GS-11 is competitive for an industrial engineer in the Midwest. There are other advantages beyond purely salary. Job security is a huge one, with layoffs being almost non-existent. Your work hours will actually be 40 hours per week, 37 if you take advantage of fitness leave. Overtime is typically paid above and beyond your salary. The retirement benefits are amazing. The total compensation package is pretty comparable when you factor everything in.
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Nov 10, 2015 21:25
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