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Making PVE less of a faceroll isnt necessarily a bad thing, either. Hazres as it is feels pretty safe in a loaded Python unless you pick a fight with a wing of Condas or something. And even those kinds of odds are surmountable with the right tactics. The risk factor needs a boost yet at that level to keep things interesting, imo.
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Nov 12, 2015 20:59
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timn posted:Making PVE less of a faceroll isnt necessarily a bad thing, either. Hazres as it is feels pretty safe in a loaded Python unless you pick a fight with a wing of Condas or something. And even those kinds of odds are surmountable with the right tactics. The risk factor needs a boost yet at that level to keep things interesting, imo. I would think the fix would be "better PvE AI", not "make the ships out of paper". That said, I can understand why the nerf is needed; but I am a little irritated that they're nerfing SCBs while still not touching the half-hour recharge time on conda shields. 
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Nov 12, 2015 21:03
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Toplowtech posted:Armor still don't protect modules, does it? It does in a rather indirect fashion. The more armor it has the less of a chance any shot has to penetrate and hit the module behind it. So the more depleted the armor, the higher the chance a shot has to penetrate, and the more base armor, the smaller the chance. timn posted:Making PVE less of a faceroll isnt necessarily a bad thing, either. Hazres as it is feels pretty safe in a loaded Python unless you pick a fight with a wing of Condas or something. And even those kinds of odds are surmountable with the right tactics. The risk factor needs a boost yet at that level to keep things interesting, imo. IMO it is a bad thing because they've made the game ultra grindy and with small payouts for almost any activity. So NPC farming is essentially an activity that revolves a shooting gallery of NPCs for very long periods of time, one NPC after another. With this change, they've made ships be less sustainable, which, depending on how severe the windup time tax is for a new SCB activation, might make your efforts pay less over time. For no reason other than to spite PVPers. As Ursine said, the 'proper' fix would be to make AIs harder, better pilots, and actually pay good money, and leave you limping after a fight, instead of cakewalks that are hardly challenging 90% of the time. While I'm at it, the real fix for SCBs that would also make armor relevant would be to just make shields recharge near instantly after going down and not taking fire for x amount of time, say, 1 to 2 minutes. If you bit off more that you could chew, you'd have to fall back on your armor to keep you alive, and would also fix the Anaconda's (and every other ship's) ridiculous 25 minute shield recharge tax. Right now tho, SCBs perform an essential role in avoiding the recharge time tax, which is why I'm p much against any nerf to the way they work right now. Chrysophylax fucked around with this message at 21:19 on Nov 12, 2015 |
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Nov 12, 2015 21:10
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Chrysophylax posted:With this change, they've made ships be less sustainable, which, depending on how severe the windup time tax is for a new SCB activation, might make your efforts pay less over time. For no reason other than to spite PVPers. We have to agree to disagree here, I hate SCBs. Especially the way they are now. I prefer putting more armor on my combat ships, or shield boosters. I can't be arsed to deal with some special snowflake modules I have to babysit in a fight, I'm bad enough at fighting as it is. 
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Nov 12, 2015 21:23
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Don't get me wrong, I don't like SCBs, I just accept them as a necessary evil. I just think there's a difference between appreciating the role they play and how nerfing them doesn't solve the underlying problem and saying SCBs are fine and you just need to Git Gud scrub.
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Nov 12, 2015 21:24
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Chrysophylax posted:Don't get me wrong, I don't like SCBs, I just accept them as a necessary evil. I just think there's a difference between appreciating the role they play and how nerfing them doesn't solve the underlying problem and saying SCBs are fine and you just need to Git Gud scrub. where have I heard-- that one rear end in a top hat posted:the BGS is fine and you just need to Git Gud scrub. oh
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Nov 12, 2015 21:36
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Chrysophylax posted:Don't get me wrong, I don't like SCBs, I just accept them as a necessary evil. I just think there's a difference between appreciating the role they play and how nerfing them doesn't solve the underlying problem and saying SCBs are fine and you just need to Git Gud scrub. Heh. I just ignore them completely. 
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Nov 12, 2015 21:38
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Nostalgia4Infinity posted:Cutter looks good on the ground: That base 
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Nov 12, 2015 21:40
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Nostalgia4Infinity posted:Cutter looks good on the ground: Haha its a whale. IMO it doesn't look good, it's a fat cargo clipper
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Nov 12, 2015 21:56
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Sekenr posted:Haha its a whale. IMO it doesn't look good, it's a fat cargo clipper okay
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Nov 12, 2015 22:38
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Mike the TV posted:That base Wanna ramp that base wall
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Nov 12, 2015 22:43
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Need a grilldos assessment on the Cutter, stat.
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Nov 12, 2015 22:44
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TmrkDO9iFyw I could gently caress in a lot of ships and locations recently revealed to us for this space game.
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Nov 12, 2015 23:01
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grilldos posted:I could gently caress ftfy
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Nov 12, 2015 23:19
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grilldos posted:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TmrkDO9iFyw
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Nov 12, 2015 23:21
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 at everything.
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Nov 12, 2015 23:50
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Chrysophylax posted:It does in a rather indirect fashion. The more armor it has the less of a chance any shot has to penetrate and hit the module behind it. So the more depleted the armor, the higher the chance a shot has to penetrate, and the more base armor, the smaller the chance. If you're finding yourself in enough trouble in PvE to need to pop off multiple SCBs at once, you're already hosed up pretty gratuitously
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Nov 12, 2015 23:53
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I only fit one SCB on my ships for PVE.
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Nov 12, 2015 23:55
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Bushiz posted:If you're finding yourself in enough trouble in PvE to need to pop off multiple SCBs at once, you're already hosed up pretty gratuitously That's not the only way to use multiple banks, tho. The setup I use on my Clipper uses two sets of C4 and C3 banks because I put a scoop on the C6 slot. Individually the banks are pretty lame but together they reup like half the shield in one go - A7 Clipper with 4 boosters gets like 550MJ of capacity, so it's about the only fast way to reup them. As a tradeoff you get like only 8 total reups, so you lose sustainability. I also don't really use it to save my rear end and more between fights 
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Nov 13, 2015 00:00
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Is there any station in game where I can buy a sweet new paint job for a ship, or are there only the real money versions?
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Nov 13, 2015 00:13
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forkbucket posted:Is there any station in game where I can buy a sweet new paint job for a ship, or are there only the real money versions? Only real money versions, as far as I'm aware. (however you will still need to apply it at a station outfitting screen though, as you mentioned)
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Nov 13, 2015 00:26
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Nostalgia4Infinity posted:Cutter looks good on the ground:  I really like the new ships, if you couldn't tell.
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Nov 13, 2015 02:28
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I'm fairly new to the game, but I do have a question after reading the op and sinking some hours. I'm following the suggested build for a mid-price range vulture, but can't seem to find any stations with the 5A Power Distributor or the 4B shield bank. Is there any particular way to narrow down my search other than "jump to random places and check every station outfitter"?
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Nov 13, 2015 07:13
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Vahalla posted:I'm fairly new to the game, but I do have a question after reading the op and sinking some hours. I'm following the suggested build for a mid-price range vulture, but can't seem to find any stations with the 5A Power Distributor or the 4B shield bank. Is there any particular way to narrow down my search other than "jump to random places and check every station outfitter"? You can use https://eddb.io/station to track down exactly what you want, but if you don't want to mess with that then try Diaguandri, Lembava, and 109 Piscium. That's my usual three stop run for outfitting new ships.
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Nov 13, 2015 07:27
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Is ranking up in a faction still entirely hosed?
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Nov 13, 2015 08:13
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Vahalla posted:I'm fairly new to the game, but I do have a question after reading the op and sinking some hours. I'm following the suggested build for a mid-price range vulture, but can't seem to find any stations with the 5A Power Distributor or the 4B shield bank. Is there any particular way to narrow down my search other than "jump to random places and check every station outfitter"? Go to your galaxy map, set the filters to “Economy: High Tech” and Population with the minimum slider at about the halfway mark. From there it’s still a little hit and miss, but there probably won’t be many that miss until you’re trying to A-class an Anaconda with 7s and 8s.
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Nov 13, 2015 08:32
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Chrysophylax posted:Don't get me wrong, I don't like SCBs, I just accept them as a necessary evil. I just think there's a difference between appreciating the role they play and how nerfing them doesn't solve the underlying problem and saying SCBs are fine and you just need to Git Gud scrub. They're not spiting PvP players, they're addressing a mechanic that comes close to breaking PvP because of how stupidly good stacked SCBs are. This is a good change for people who like PvP. The fact that a stupid mechanic compensates for another stupid mechanic in one context doesn't mean the solution is to maintain the tenuous balance of bad design decisions.
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Nov 13, 2015 08:42
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Toplowtech posted:Armor still don't protect modules, does it? Which is why I really, really dislike how defense works in this game. You can be at > 80% hull and lose a module due to Good Shots which is absolutely awful considering how crippling that is. It's just not a fun design. I am also super mad at in game ship designers who had > 200 years to work on this poo poo and have not added massive reenforcement around critical modules. Fucks sake, guys. timn posted:Making PVE less of a faceroll isnt necessarily a bad thing, either. Hazres as it is feels pretty safe in a loaded Python unless you pick a fight with a wing of Condas or something. And even those kinds of odds are surmountable with the right tactics. The risk factor needs a boost yet at that level to keep things interesting, imo. That tactic is "shield boosts as often as possible." That's not good either. I hate the idea of "health potions" but unless they make shields down a much less RNG fuckfest, the name of the game right now is keeping shields up. Adult Sword Owner fucked around with this message at 09:37 on Nov 13, 2015 |
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Nov 13, 2015 09:35
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Adult Sword Owner posted:Which is why I really, really dislike how defense works in this game. You can be at > 80% hull and lose a module due to Good Shots which is absolutely awful considering how crippling that is. It's just not a fun design. Maybe they should buff up the strength of the more critical modules like the power plant and have more gradual damage effects, and make modules like weapons and utility slots weaker to encourage taking them out instead.
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Nov 13, 2015 09:46
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Rectus posted:Maybe they should buff up the strength of the more critical modules like the power plant and have more gradual damage effects, and make modules like weapons and utility slots weaker to encourage taking them out instead. I think the idea of automatically targeted systems is kind of bland considering the necessity of gimbaled weapons on any larger ship, so there will be a constant source of damage, and asking commanders to always present the Least Vulnerable Spot during encounters doesn't sound fun for anyone involved, considering the magnitude of getting your power plant or thrusters knocked out. Hell, even losing chaff is significant. I think that the change of 0% PP takes you to 50% production is a good step but it also assumes commanders know this and how to properly power manage buuuut that also loops back into the abysmal introduction and lack of explanation in the game. People who know are OK with it (personally, I like having to figure it out for my outfittings), but it's super lovely to anyone who isn't socking the game and suffering Reddit and reading Wikis and annoying forums with questions.
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Nov 13, 2015 10:28
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Demoed Elite, including the galaxy map, with DK2, me realize just what an incredible technical achievement this is. If the BGS is an actual system then it must've been the work of a temp agency.
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Nov 13, 2015 12:17
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Having the game at least default to thrusters, sensors, life support and FSD at priority 1 and everything else at priority 2 would go a long way to helping newbies. At least they should then always have a chance to run away without having to learn on the spot how power management works.
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Nov 13, 2015 12:21
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Some more info on the impending SCB nerf all you poopsockers are looking forward to:Sandro Sardino Sarny posted:Hello Commanders! Do you think he means 20+ seconds from when you press the 'fire SCB' button, or 20+ seconds from when you activate a bunch of SCBs from the module tab on your RH panel? DarthBlingBling fucked around with this message at 12:49 on Nov 13, 2015 |
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Nov 13, 2015 12:46
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DarthBlingBling posted:Some more info on the impending SCB nerf all you poopsockers are looking forward to: He means they take 20 seconds to come online after you power them up with the right hand panel. This change means I'm going to have to take the beams off my python though.
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Nov 13, 2015 13:02
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Voyager I posted:They're not spiting PvP players, they're addressing a mechanic that comes close to breaking PvP because of how stupidly good stacked SCBs are. This is a good change for people who like PvP. The fact that a stupid mechanic compensates for another stupid mechanic in one context doesn't mean the solution is to maintain the tenuous balance of bad design decisions. I used the word 'spite' because I think PVP is a really bad joke in this game and balancing around an activity only the most hardcore of players even have the patience to engage in is a waste of development time and resources. This whole thing seems motivated by the few people who got hit by a pirate encounter and said things like 'my Type-6 should have a chance against that pirate Python, if only it wasn't for cells  !!!!', unironically. That's a paraphrase of a thing a person said, not hyperbole. In turn, this seems to have started a lot of armchair discussion by people who've never PVP'd but wanted those damned SCBs gone right now, because my skills on the stick ought to determine victory !!! without actually ever addressing why they're needed in the first place. This has been brewing for months, and seems to have ramped up during the Hutton CG, which stressed the game a lot between bad instancing, pointing out to anyone and everyone just how helpless the Types and trade fit ships in general are, and how nothing can really survive or fight on a 4v1 and hope to win - the game isn't/wasn't balanced around PVP and this CG showed everyone that. This SCB change will mostly only affect the 20 persons still doing PVP.I'm glad to hear that it's only a 20 second wind-up, tho, it's shorter than I thought it'd be and won't penalize PVE too much. By the way, here's a very large compiled QA about 1.5 and Horizons features, including SCBs. It seems they really want to kill big ships in PVP, and just changing their King-of-the-Hill status otherwise. Chrysophylax fucked around with this message at 16:32 on Nov 13, 2015 |
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Nov 13, 2015 16:19
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Chrysophylax posted:without actually ever addressing why they're needed in the first place. You need to articulate why these changes to SCBs bother you so much, and what glaring hole they're patching up. Given that lots of other people seem to be able to manage PvE fine without stacking tons of them, you think it might be a hole that's somewhat self inflicted?
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Nov 13, 2015 16:46
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tooterfish posted:You aren't actually addressing that either though, or at least only in the most vague way. This is what I feel the real fix to SCBs is. Chrysophylax posted:While I'm at it, the real fix for SCBs that would also make armor relevant would be to just make shields recharge near instantly after going down and not taking fire for x amount of time, say, 1 to 2 minutes. If you bit off more that you could chew, you'd have to fall back on your armor to keep you alive, and would also fix the Anaconda's (and every other ship's) ridiculous 25 minute shield recharge tax. Right now tho, SCBs perform an essential role in avoiding the recharge time tax, which is why I'm p much against any nerf to the way they work right now. Essentially, I believe the problem to be the fixed 1MW recharge rate. It seems they made it this way so people doing combat would have something else to micromanage during combat, using SCBs, instead of a Halo-like shields on/off switch. You can manage PVE without SCBs just fine, if you stick to certain patterns of flying or certain ships. Even on a Python at a CZ, if you manage your distributor Pips properly and know when to run you'll hardly need cells. But you do need them eventually - because this game's methods of making money by fighting all rely on staying there for very long periods and penalize you with a 10-20 minute tax on shield recharge if you ever let your shields go down. Chrysophylax fucked around with this message at 16:53 on Nov 13, 2015 |
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Nov 13, 2015 16:50
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Okay, that's fair enough. I think one or two changes at a time is the way to go though. More than that and it's hard to gauge what's affecting what. Some people seem to be suffering under the impression that this is the absolute last word on balance (gotta love reddit). And who knows, maybe even some of the combat mission changes might alleviate the need to faceroll in REZs at all.
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Nov 13, 2015 17:03
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I'm convinced shield cells were a problem from the moment they were introduced as I can't even remember a time when anyone asked for them at all, it was like they just cold-dumped them on us with a patch. Nobody asked for space-health, but once they were in you were an idiot if you didn't take them as they are better than every other module if you have the space. You don't fit point defense (lol) or a wake scanner (lol) or anything else, you run shield cells.
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Nov 13, 2015 17:45
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The problem with nerfing SCBs is that stupid pubbies love unintuitive, overpowered poo poo. They want there to be "One Weird Trick" to win a fight and SCBs provided it. If you ran a meta-SCB ship against people who didn't think to put 5 SCBs offline and cycle them you had a huge advantage. Now you're taking away their "skill". I'll give kudos to Frontier for actually following through with the nerf. To many developers just scream "EMERGENT GAMEPLAY" and ignore it when stuff is overpowered.
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