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jsoh posted:im certain that the islamic state has more to do with twenty plus years of western interests intentionally destabilizing the middle east than it does with religion. the important part of it is that there are people there with different religions than eachother which lead to them hating eachother , not what each of those religions is i think As if. Islamic extremism can only be purged by fire. Intervention destabilizing the region and allowing extremism to flourish is plain poppy cock. We need to root these scum from their hovels with force. Any time an imam calls to prayer in Isis territory there should be a drone waiting..From the ashes of this region purged of the influence of Islam will rise a secular Phoenix to guide the middle east.
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Nov 14, 2015 07:21
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You can be against interventions without letting geopolitics totally absolve religious teachings for the role they played. The west helped create IS by its interventions, but that doesn't make Islam irrelevant to what happened anymore than Christianity being irrelevant to treatment of LGBT people in Uganda and East Africa, despite colonialism having a big influence on that, too! The accounts I've heard seem to point to homegrown anyway, so geopolitics are an indirect cause at best. Radicalization still took the route of targeting a person's religion to turn them against their neighbors.* *and of course disenfranchisement is a part of that to, but not every disenfranchised person targets civilians.
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Nov 14, 2015 07:40
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PT6A posted:I too am a self-hating white person! I need to be be punished, it makes me very hard! I know you get very emotional here when these kinds of things happen, but please remember that you don't have to post stupid embarrassing poo poo like this. Remember to breathe, PT6A.
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Nov 14, 2015 07:47
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Do the people calling for war also support the fifty years of nation building that's needed too?
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Nov 14, 2015 07:49
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Odobenidae posted:I know you get very emotional here when these kinds of things happen, but please remember that you don't have to post stupid embarrassing poo poo like this. Embarrassing? What on earth do I have to be embarrassed about? I'm not called to victim-blaming based on pathological white guilt, gently caress me right?
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Nov 14, 2015 07:52
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Evis posted:Do the people calling for war also support the fifty years of nation building that's needed too? Do people who are anti-abortionists support the building of social safety nets for unexpected children?
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Nov 14, 2015 07:52
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Sedge and Bee posted:You can be against interventions without letting geopolitics totally absolve religious teachings for the role they played. The west helped create IS by its interventions, but that doesn't make Islam irrelevant to what happened anymore than Christianity being irrelevant to treatment of LGBT people in Uganda and East Africa, despite colonialism having a big influence on that, too! The accounts I've heard seem to point to homegrown anyway, so geopolitics are an indirect cause at best. Radicalization still took the route of targeting a person's religion to turn them against their neighbors.* Do you posit that regressive warlords would not have sprung up in the region had the majority religion been different but geopolitical influences remained the same? Do you think there is something unique to the beliefs of Islam that is fueling Isis expansion?
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Nov 14, 2015 07:55
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Not unique to Islam, but the power of Islam in middle eastern society allowed the regressive ideas it (and many other religions) contains to fuel conflict and sectarian violence. And geopolitics is inextricably linked to dominant religions, from the cultural chauvinism and orientalism of Europe when it was dividing the region up, to Saudi Arabia's promotion and use of Wahabism as a way of countering Iran (another geopolitical conflict implicating religion). I don't hate Islam, I find that religion itself as a social influence, whatever form it takes, is overall a negative and destabilizing element. I don't value its contributions and would like to see it eventually be relegated to history. E: that's like asking if there's something unique to Christianity that allows the Catholic Church to gently caress up family planning programs in developing countries. Nothing other than the influence it wields. Beelzebufo fucked around with this message at 08:11 on Nov 14, 2015 |
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Nov 14, 2015 08:06
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gently caress Saudi Arabia in the rear end. That is all. We should deny every single visa application from the KSA and its citizens (except under refugee criteria), including an absolute prohibition on any Saudi royal entering the country under any circumstance, until they reach the 21st century.
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Nov 14, 2015 08:12
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agreed, we should attempt to destabilize another middle eastern country because ??????????????????????????????
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Nov 14, 2015 08:14
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jsoh posted:agreed, we should attempt to destabilize another middle eastern country because ?????????????????????????????? Because white people think that they can solve all of the world's problems.
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Nov 14, 2015 08:16
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I was being glib before. I don't favor interventions as a solution to anything. Especially if they don't involve taking out the Vatican. I really hope Article 5 doesn't get invoked because it won't solve anything in Syria and Iraq, and other groups area already learning from IS recruiting tactics, so radicalization will not go away even if/when IS is decisively defeated. To say nothing of what a loving international relations nightmare dealing with Russian operations in support of Assad would be. Beelzebufo fucked around with this message at 08:22 on Nov 14, 2015 |
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Nov 14, 2015 08:18
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jsoh posted:agreed, we should attempt to destabilize another middle eastern country because ?????????????????????????????? Remind me again how preventing Saudis from leaving their medieval shithole to come to our country is "destabilizing" them, please. Remind me how the nation that's sentenced Raif Badawi to flogging deserves anything but the utmost contempt. Or we could talk about the domestic workers who have their limbs severed with the perpetrators protected by the corrupt, criminal Saudi government. gently caress that country; we should not accept anything but refugees from it. We should treat them as beneath contempt, and recognize that such is still better than they deserve.
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Nov 14, 2015 08:27
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When you say accept nothing from them do you mean embargo? Do you not think isolating a nation like that would cause instability.?
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Nov 14, 2015 08:40
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i think we should start small, maybe set up some kind of tip line so i can report these kinds of barbaric cultural practices, then we can really figure out a plan of action.
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Nov 14, 2015 08:46
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We could start by not selling them billions of dollars in weaponry.
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Nov 14, 2015 08:56
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flashman posted:When you say accept nothing from them do you mean embargo? Do you not think isolating a nation like that would cause instability.? How much worse can it get? They behead and crucify people. What's the risk -- that Daesh takes over and does basically the same thing? They might produce terrorists? Saudis were already responsible for 9/11, and they've long funded any number of terrorist groups under flimsy pretences. loving the house of Saud up the rear end with a broom handle would be a boon for the planet, at this point.
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Nov 14, 2015 08:58
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I think you'll find that things can get much worse especially for the people who live there!
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Nov 14, 2015 09:01
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what could be worse than saddam hussein ? he gassed his own citizens and killed thousands. oh wait lol
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Nov 14, 2015 09:10
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PT6A posted:That is all. Oh, but if only
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Nov 14, 2015 10:01
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jsoh posted:im certain that the islamic state has more to do with twenty plus years of western interests intentionally destabilizing the middle east than it does with religion I think you're off by about a century on that estimate, and certainly more if you include Egypt/Suez. Actually I have to share this hilarious bit of European dickwaving from Wikipedia: quote:The canal opened under French control on 17 November 1869. Although numerous technical, political, and financial problems had been overcome, the final cost was more than double the original estimate. The opening was performed by Khedive Isma'il Pasha of Egypt and Sudan, and at Ismail's invitation French Empress Eugenie in the Imperial yacht Aigle piloted by Napoléon Coste, who was bestowed by the Khedive the Ottoman Order of the Medjidie. The first ship through the canal was the British P&O liner Delta.[54][55] Although L'Aigle was officially the first vessel through the canal, HMS Newport, captained by George Nares, passed through it first. On the night before the canal was due to open, Captain Nares navigated his vessel, in total darkness and without lights, through the mass of waiting ships until it was in front of L'Aigle. When dawn broke, the French were horrified to find that the Royal Navy was first in line and that it would be impossible to pass them. Nares received both an official reprimand and an unofficial vote of thanks from the Admiralty for his actions in promoting British interests and for demonstrating such superb seamanship. Precambrian Video Games fucked around with this message at 11:16 on Nov 14, 2015 |
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Nov 14, 2015 11:03
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I just finished catching up from about Wednesday, thanks canpol thread, for the glorious sight that was jm20 asking a lawyer to post IANAL (and asking for canlii links while he posts media poo poo) and the glory that was swagger trying desperately to score cheap points as people die in France. Why the gently caress do I bother reading this poo poo. Then again Helsing is generally quality posting, BoD is pretty amusing, and PT6A occasionally glimmers. Also CI, whatever that is.
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Nov 14, 2015 11:30
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Odobenidae posted:I know you get very emotional here when these kinds of things happen, but please remember that you don't have to post stupid embarrassing poo poo like this. You can tell when PT6A has been drinking and posting because he becomes the thread equivalent to that guy that no one really likes who gets really drunk at the party and gets embarrassingly drunk and everyone whispers about them 
Professor Shark fucked around with this message at 14:35 on Nov 14, 2015 |
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Nov 14, 2015 14:33
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The vindictive frothing at the mouth is a bit extreme.
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Nov 14, 2015 14:44
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Colour me surprised and impressed. I was half expecting Paris to be on fire last night. I'm glad that didn't happen.
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Nov 14, 2015 14:44
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I also look forward to the >130 civilian deaths in Syria and Iraq that will no doubt result from our continued cycle of revenge.
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Nov 14, 2015 14:58
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Baudin posted:I just finished catching up from about Wednesday, thanks canpol thread, for the glorious sight that was jm20 asking a lawyer to post IANAL (and asking for canlii links while he posts media poo poo) and the glory that was swagger trying desperately to score cheap points as people die in France. I hope by amusing you mean that in a good way. Anyways guys I am about to crack open my email inbox. I may be gone a couple days.
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Nov 14, 2015 15:05
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From a Canadian context, since this is still a CanPol thread, let's remember that our military is in very very poor shape and even if we do decide to do an abrupt about-turn and not withdraw our forces from Syria, they make very little difference there. On the other hand, we do have a fairly well developed humanitarian relief system that could help ameliorate the suffering of the millions of displaced people in and outside of Syria, and a safe society that can welcome Syrian refugees. If you ask me, we should probably be leaving the military stuff to countries that actually have a strong capacity to act on that, like France and the United States, and we should instead be focusing our efforts on relieving the suffering of the Syrian civilian population, especially since this is theoretically something military powers like France and the US would be doing anyway so we can still be lightening their workload and allowing them to focus slightly more on the military mission that everyone has a hardon for. Division of labour and specialization is a thing outside of economics, and this is a case where our specialization is really not in the application of military force. Also, friendly reminder that if anyone you know starts spouting off about how the Paris attack means we shouldn't be allowing Syrian refugees into Canada, probably the best response you can make is to point out that trying to get away from men like that is exactly the reason these refugees are fleeing Syria in the first place. If we're scared for ourselves in a safe country like Canada, imagine how afraid the refugees must feel having lost their homes, their friends, their family members, and their belongings, and try to feel some empathy for them by imagining how amazing it must be to be granted a new home in a country where you no longer have to fear for your life on a daily basis.
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Nov 14, 2015 15:05
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Also, in more domestic news, Canada will not be setting new emissions targets ahead of the Paris talks.quote:Canada will not go to the Paris climate change talks with a new target, or a concrete framework to reduce carbon emissions, according to Catherine McKenna, the minister for the environment and climate change.
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Nov 14, 2015 15:22
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Sedge and Bee posted:We could start by not selling them billions of dollars in weaponry. woah woah woah what about the jobs
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Nov 14, 2015 15:35
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Count Roland posted:woah woah woah what about the jobs I can't be the only one who finds it dryly amusing we're selling arms to another country when we're so utterly inept at buying them for ourselves.
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Nov 14, 2015 15:45
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PT6A posted:No, clearly not. I'm saying we should support the government of Al-Sisi against the fundamentally anti-democratic regime of Morsi. Oh seems like a missed some incisive analysis last night. lol at calling Morsi the undemocratic one when Sisi came to power in a coup, jailed and banned the opposition and won unfair elections with 96% of the vote. Truly a force for democracy.
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Nov 14, 2015 15:49
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Count Roland posted:Oh seems like a missed some incisive analysis last night. Theocracy is inherently anti-democratic and fundamentally incompatible with any notion of a free society, regardless of how it gained power in the first place.
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Nov 14, 2015 15:59
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Morsi was a heavy-handed theocratic rear end in a top hat but uh I'm not sure I'd compare his regime to widespread factional violence in Lybia, the insurgency in Afghanistan, or ISIS in Iraq/Syria. Maybe I'm naive but Egypt looked like it was on its way to developing a culture of democracy (with large scale protests against military rule followed by large scale protests against theocracy) until Sisi put a stop to all that nonsense.
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Nov 14, 2015 17:11
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WATCH TRUDEAU START A loving WAR
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Nov 14, 2015 17:14
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PT6A posted:Theocracy is inherently anti-democratic and fundamentally incompatible with any notion of a free society, regardless of how it gained power in the first place. So are military dictatorships. The difference is that secular military dictatorships are better aligned with the West's political interests.
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Nov 14, 2015 17:41
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bunnyofdoom posted:I hope by amusing you mean that in a good way. Of course I do. Considering your Quixotic quest to carry the liberal brand in the thread for quite some time I'm particularly in favor of your posting. God bless you in your journeys to the email mines where all the racist and sexist trolls live.  PT6A posted:Theocracy is inherently anti-democratic and fundamentally incompatible with any notion of a free society, regardless of how it gained power in the first place. Yea, sure, but I hate to tell you this: Morsi wasn't leading a theocracy, he led an Islamist party within a democratic system. A party that Sisi then made illegal and began jailing members of. This is pretty directly related to the conflicts in Sinai - his heavy handed rule is driving away portions of society. Baudin fucked around with this message at 18:08 on Nov 14, 2015 |
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Nov 14, 2015 18:02
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Gwynne Dyer published a book recently about the issues we're talking about and unlike his last couple of books, this one, by all the reviews so far, seems solid.
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Nov 14, 2015 18:20
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Thought this was worth sharing: The Firewall From the Other Side: The past and future of Stephen Harper’s agendaquote:It didn’t take long for the new Liberal government in Ottawa to start undoing the changes Stephen Harper made to the way the country is run over his nine years as prime minister. Many of these changes were in the tone and style of governance: Trudeau unmuzzled scientists, said nice things to public servants, promised more access and openness to journalists. From coast to coast to coast, bowling scores are up sharply, and mini-put scores are way down.
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Nov 14, 2015 18:28
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If I am reading that article correctly, does that mean Harper essentially wasn't a federalist? Does that make his party the Bloc Albertois? If everything he did was to essentially force Alberta to become more independent and to protected it from the other provinces, damning even his own support in rural Ontario, then the only thing he would stop short of was shattering confederation? (And even then?) Does that mean if nothing happens to ease western alienation, we're going to have to it all over again?
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Nov 14, 2015 18:46
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