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Megaspel posted:I'm saying it doesn't matter what the creators post on twitter, the point of including queer characters is to normalize it, but who are they normalizing it to? The people following the artists on twitter already agree with what they're saying, but they're too scared to say it to anyone who might change their mind or oppose the message. It's not doing much good is all I'm saying. They haven't kept it out of the show because they wanted to be sneaky or something, They kept it out of the show because the network told them they had to. That likely will change eventually since another popular show on the very same network for the very same audience has openly gay characters as a major plot element and their oppression as a driving character motivation.
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Nov 19, 2015 04:25
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I don't know anything about Tarot, so would someone mind explaining them in regards to the vamps? Moon was pretty insane.
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Nov 19, 2015 04:31
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Triple Helix posted:I don't know anything about Tarot, so would someone mind explaining them in regards to the vamps? Heirophant, the Moon, the Fool, and Empress are all from the Major Arcana Not sure there's more to it than that it's a really cool thing to name vampires after.
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Nov 19, 2015 04:33
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Acne Rain posted:Heirophant, the Moon, the Fool, and Empress are all from the Major Arcana Well, they kind of fit their archetypes. Fool is a straight fool. He moves blindly forward without plans or cares. He just IS, for any good or bad that comes with it. Courage without forethought. Empress is power and control, to an obsessive degree. It also points to her 'royal' tastes about forming a hive and only having the 'top-shelf' stuff. Hierophant fits into whatever role he can in service to an ideal, but ends up too focused and blind to outside influences. His ideal is 'the old ways', and they end him. Moon represents illusion and duality, between the light of the mind and the darkness of instinct. But even the light of intellect is an illusion, hiding the real darkness underneath. Does anyone remember the Vampire King's name?
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Nov 19, 2015 04:45
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briefly wiki'd it. Don't think he has one. And there's not a tarot card that is "the king" or "the lion" or "the zoo" so I don't think anything was strongly implied.
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Nov 19, 2015 04:54
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Acne Rain posted:briefly wiki'd it. Don't think he has one. There is the Emperor however.
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Nov 19, 2015 05:12
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Acne Rain posted:briefly wiki'd it. Don't think he has one. The lion appears in Strength.
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Nov 19, 2015 05:15
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Owlofcreamcheese posted:They haven't kept it out of the show because they wanted to be sneaky or something, They kept it out of the show because the network told them they had to. I'm not sure why people keep saying this. The writers have always said that they don't feel like making it explicit, and CN has already allowed unambiguous depictions of gay couples on their network. It's 100% an intentional creative choice on the writers' part and that's perfectly fine.
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Nov 19, 2015 05:27
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KOO had it coming.
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Nov 19, 2015 05:28
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I'm going to hazard a guess VK was the representation of the Devil tarot (NWS?): Lion's head, man's body, bird feet.
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Nov 19, 2015 05:41
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Between Everything Stays and Marcie's conversation w. the Vampire King about cycles repeating her re-vamping is thematically appropriate.
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Nov 19, 2015 05:42
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Das Boo posted:I'm going to hazard a guess VK was the representation of the Devil tarot (NWS?): Also, according to the wife, the Devil is about temptation and negotiation. Both of which are elements of his character. A little extra searching also includes some things that match and don't match. The Devil can mean choice, which he's constantly alluding to; or to adherence to an ideal, which he is actively against.
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Nov 19, 2015 05:48
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Didn't really enjoy Stakes. It didn't feel like it was really about anything, and just became kind of an empty, if pretty funny at times, run through the villain set.
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Nov 19, 2015 12:20
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Or he isnt represented by a tarot because he wants no part in the cycle he became part of. Which the Tarot, in ATs context, represent. He has successfully defied fate, essentially.
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Nov 19, 2015 12:22
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If you get this far in AT and still expect any changes in status quo at all, I don't even know what to say to you.
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Nov 19, 2015 12:33
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Triple Helix posted:I don't know anything about Tarot, so would someone mind explaining them in regards to the vamps? IIRC acording to mister crawley, the taro was created to try to explain the universe, it's humanity first try at a universal theory for everything, so they created a set of archetypes that each would represent a facet of life, the universe, and everything. Hellblazer is kind of the fool. That's all that I know.
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Nov 19, 2015 12:37
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Das Boo posted:I'm going to hazard a guess VK was the representation of the Devil tarot (NWS?): this is awesome, I thought he was a chimera or something, but it's obviously this.
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Nov 19, 2015 12:40
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The status quo didn't totally upend itself, but it wasn't totally static, either - PB's back in charge but she's a more empathic leader, KOO's all gooey, Marcy's got a tiny ghost grandpa on top of her medium ice grandpa. It's almost as though everything stayed right where we left it. But it still changes, ever so slightly. Daily and nightly.
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Nov 19, 2015 12:53
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Yeah I mean the marketing doesn't have to change, I imagine that'd be a massive pain in the arse for a lot of people, plus confusing for people not following along. Important character changes happened, which are less important to know coming into a episode, but still provides that level of continuity maybe, depending on the story board artist sticking to them or not. The animation in the intros was really good, hope they eventually revamp the main intro with something as cool as that. My only problem with the PBM thing is that people keep touting it as the show being great and progressive even though the show definitely has no homosexual representation whatsoever. I'm fine with that, it'd be nice if they had it, but they don't, but I'm happy enough with the rest of the show. Steven Universe is obviously a step above, but I wouldn't say it's totally non-ambiguous. The only explicit homosexual relationship is between Ruby and Sapphire, but Ruby is sorta designed that the person watching could read into either gender they feel more comfortable with, and, correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think female pronouns are mentioned in episodes with them kissing or whatever, so disinterested parties don't notice the homosexual agenda taking over children's media. I'm cool with that, since obviously those type of people could do a lot of harm, and the message is still getting through pretty cleanly in SU. It's not totally unambiguous though, I'd bet they might redub certain countries so that Ruby is a boy or they're just sisters who love each other very much or something. I'm cool with SU's representation, it is more explicit, and I'm cool with the ambiguity. I don't think it's fair to say it's totally unambiguous though, because I don't think it is. curse of flubber fucked around with this message at 13:22 on Nov 19, 2015 |
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Nov 19, 2015 13:16
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Megaspel posted:Steven Universe is obviously a step above, but I wouldn't say it's totally non-ambiguous. The only explicit homosexual relationship is between Ruby and Sapphire, but Ruby is sorta designed that the person watching could read into either gender they feel more comfortable with, and, correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think female pronouns are mentioned in episodes with them kissing or whatever, so disinterested parties don't notice the homosexual agenda taking over children's media. I'm cool with that, since obviously those type of people could do a lot of harm, and the message is still getting through pretty cleanly in SU. It's not totally unambiguous though, I'd bet they might redub certain countries so that Ruby is a boy or they're just sisters who love each other very much or something. Like one page back people complained bubblegum and marceline are bad because they are hot teens so it's sexualizing and now ruby is bad because she's too butch? It seems like there is an awful specific set of qualities lesbians are allowed to have to 'count' in media. Also: ruby's voice actress might have something to say about this. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WFfKvP4vSL0 Owlofcreamcheese fucked around with this message at 13:42 on Nov 19, 2015 |
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Nov 19, 2015 13:38
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Reading the thread again because I've now seen the whole thing. I was watching it might by night but I won't be able to see it tonight so I skipped ahead. Overall I think the whole thing was extremely good but it also sort of falters in the last part, which is extremely unfortunate. I mean despite being an 8 part series, the last part still felt rushed and unsatisfying. There's also the whole resetting the status quo thing, which to be fair was made a theme but it still felt a little pointless at least to the degree they did it. Still, overall this was fantastic. Also, bravest of the lamps, loving cool it. I'm no mod, but considering you were probated for this type of posting in the SU thread before its demise, I don't think I'm out of line here. Just discuss the show like a normal person without shaming people for thinking things about the show you don't approve of. If posts get too creepy just report them and move on.
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Nov 19, 2015 13:56
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Owlofcreamcheese posted:Like one page back people complained bubblegum and marceline are bad because they are hot teens so it's sexualizing and now ruby is bad because she's too butch? It seems like there is an awful specific set of qualities lesbians are allowed to have to 'count' in media. Jeeze, calm down. I'm not saying it was bad, I'm saying it's ambiguous for people who don't want to see gay relationships in cartoons, so it stops them from doing as much complaining, I can't say if that was intentional or not. Also I'm a different person to the other posters on this forum, if you haven't guessed, my opinion may not line up with whatever person a couple pages back said whatever. Marceline and Bubblegum are definitely not shown as a lesbian couple in the context of the show, it is only apparent if you're already a fan and seek out that information from behind the scenes, but that really only amounts to fanfiction, or fan canon or whatever. Try not to read my posts as like an angry mad man ranting about the gays in cartoons, I'm just stating my observations. curse of flubber fucked around with this message at 14:42 on Nov 19, 2015 |
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Nov 19, 2015 14:39
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Megaspel posted:Jeeze, calm down. I'm not saying it was bad, I'm saying it's ambiguous for people who don't want to see gay relationships in cartoons But it's not ambiguous, any more than saying that the actual real life actual woman that plays ruby is herself sometimes told she is too manish and not a real women.
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Nov 19, 2015 15:24
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Megaspel posted:Marceline and Bubblegum are definitely not shown as a lesbian couple in the context of the show, it is only apparent if you're already a fan and seek out that information from behind the scenes, but that really only amounts to fanfiction, or fan canon or whatever. Yeah if you think it's not possible whatsoever to read Marcy/PB's relationship as queer without having outside information then you're basically confirming exactly what I said about people in general (I'm assuming you're not queer) not parsing same gender relationships as romantic. Marceline singing an emotional song about wanting PB's forgiveness and how she's not sweet enough for her while PB sits there and blushes uncontrollably isn't exactly the straightest thing that's ever happened on TV.
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Nov 19, 2015 17:18
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Philip Rivers posted:Yeah if you think it's not possible whatsoever to read Marcy/PB's relationship as queer without having outside information then you're basically confirming exactly what I said about people in general (I'm assuming you're not queer) not parsing same gender relationships as romantic. Marceline singing an emotional song about wanting PB's forgiveness and how she's not sweet enough for her while PB sits there and blushes uncontrollably isn't exactly the straightest thing that's ever happened on TV. I just don't think it's actually doing anything good for anybody by being so under the radar. Also assuming things makes an arse out of u and ming. I can see the incredibly incredibly subtle hints at a relationship, but I'm wondering if that's because of the prior knowledge I have, which I'm guessing it is, but I have just as much evidence that I wouldn't have noticed it if not for following the artists as you have for me being able to see it without that. Owlofcreamcheese posted:But it's not ambiguous, any more than saying that the actual real life actual woman that plays ruby is herself sometimes told she is too manish and not a real women. I'm not saying it's super ambiguous, I think SU is a great example of homosexual acceptance in comparison to AT, as I mentioned before, but they definitely have a few outs if they need them, which may or may not have been intentional, but certainly works to the network's advantage for avoiding any sort of anti-homosexual fire.
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Nov 19, 2015 17:40
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Megaspel posted:incredibly incredibly subtle hints at a relationship If that had been Marshall Lee then there's no possible way that song plus PB's reaction wouldn't have been read as romantic by the vast majority of viewers.
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Nov 19, 2015 17:42
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Philip Rivers posted:If that had been Marshall Lee then there's no possible way that song plus PB's reaction wouldn't have been read as romantic by the vast majority of viewers. Which song are you referring to anyway, I got no idea. Youtube link or something?
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Nov 19, 2015 17:46
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Megaspel posted:Which song are you referring to anyway, I got no idea. Youtube link or something? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1s5-ODUA-Cc
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Nov 19, 2015 17:47
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Escobarbarian posted:Didn't really enjoy Stakes. It didn't feel like it was really about anything, and just became kind of an empty, if pretty funny at times, run through the villain set. Really weird criticism, most at episodes are not about anything with stakes being far more about something (Marcie's arc) than anything else in the show I can think of
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Nov 19, 2015 17:56
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Megaspel posted:I'm not saying it's super ambiguous, I think SU is a great example of homosexual acceptance in comparison to AT, as I mentioned before, but they definitely have a few outs if they need them, which may or may not have been intentional, but certainly works to the network's advantage for avoiding any sort of anti-homosexual fire. What outs? It's two female characters referred to as female who are played by women who have described themselves as in a relationship on screen multiple times, sang a song about how another character is single, told a boy she would not date them ever because she was in a relationship, kissed each other in every single appearance they have had, had their whole reason for being on the team described as their home culture oppressing their relationship and god drat had a character from their culture make two Os with their fingers then bump them together for their hand motion for why they felt garnet was disgusting and inappropriate. Like romeo and juliet have more outs for if they are in a relationship. The show is very intentionally very forceful in saying they are. And intentionally shooting down fan objections. Owlofcreamcheese fucked around with this message at 18:40 on Nov 19, 2015 |
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Nov 19, 2015 18:35
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Owlofcreamcheese posted:What outs? It's two female characters referred to as female who are played by women who have described themselves as in a relationship on screen multiple times, sang a song about how another character is single, told a boy she would not date them ever because she was in a relationship, kissed each other in every single appearance they have had, had their whole reason for being on the team described as their home culture oppressing their relationship and god drat had a character from their culture make two Os with their fingers then bump them together for their hand motion for why they felt garnet was disgusting and inappropriate. Yeah, like I said, the subtext in SU is waaaay more obvious and clear than AT, but angry homophobic parents could probably see Ruby and Sapphire as a boy and a girl, since I don't think, again correct me if I'm wrong, they actually used female pronouns until episodes later, so any angry homophobe probably wouldn't be paying attention enough to notice the gay agenda™ taking over the childrens cartoons. I'm not saying they're wrong for doing this, it's a million times better than AT, which is why I brought it up, but networks are still frightened of any sort of pushback with this sort of stuff, so they like to cover their arses, like firing a dude for suggesting Marceline and PB were in a gay relationship. I don't blame them either, I think SU is pushing it as far as they can without risking getting pulled off the air in countries where homosexuality or homosexual "propoganda" is illegal, like Russia. I feel like you're really misinterpreting my feelings on this, I just think we still have further to go and things could be better and more open in the future. Also for some reason I'm having youtube troubles today, and I can only get the first two frames of that youtube video to play before it crashes. EDIT: Okay I restarted my computer, that fixed it for whatever reason. Yeah, this doesn't really seem gay at all to me, I think you may just be seeing what you want in it, which is sorta my point about intentional ambiguity, though I don't think this song really even hints at a romantic or non-platonic relationship in the slightest. If anything it just reinforces my belief that someone definitely does not want any gay romantic relationship shown on AT. I did expect that song to infer something romantic, since it's by Rebecca Sugar, whose art is what started this all off, but I'm just not seeing anything there. What lines specifically do you think show a romantic relationship? Maybe I'm just missing something. curse of flubber fucked around with this message at 18:59 on Nov 19, 2015 |
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Nov 19, 2015 18:45
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Megaspel posted:Yeah, like I said, the subtext in SU is waaaay more obvious and clear than AT, but angry homophobic parents could probably see Ruby and Sapphire as a boy and a girl, since I don't think, again correct me if I'm wrong, they actually used female pronouns until episodes later, so any angry homophobe probably wouldn't be paying attention enough to notice the gay agenda™ taking over the childrens cartoons. I mean both ruby and sapphire are girl's names and they are voiced by women using basically their actual voices and they don't use pronouns because there is like maybe 8 lines they speak in that episode total and they use female pronouns in every single other episode with no problem at all. But the first thing they do is kiss and sing about them being in love and a stable relationship. To call any of it "subtext" is crazy, they are as up front about this as a show even possibly could be.They have explicitly said it onscreen dozens of times.
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Nov 19, 2015 19:06
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Owlofcreamcheese posted:I mean both ruby and sapphire are girl's names and they are voiced by women using basically their actual voices and they don't use pronouns because there is like maybe 8 lines they speak in that episode total and they use female pronouns in every single other episode with no problem at all. But the first thing they do is kiss and sing about them being in love and a stable relationship. Plenty of women voice actors voice boys, and combined with Ruby's design, the ambiguity has the potential to stop angry homophobic parents from preventing their kids watching the cartoon. As I've said a million times now, go back and count, it's exactly one million, I think homosexuality is much more obvious in SU, and I have no problem with the little tricks they use to maximize the help they can do, but that resistance is still there and Cartoon Network has shown themselves to not be amazingly comfortable with promoting homosexuality. All I'm saying is that the world still isn't perfect, I don't know why you keep acting like I'm saying SU is the devil or whatever and no one is gay in it.
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Nov 19, 2015 19:12
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I think it is just kind of nice to have Marceline and PB be really good mates who hang out and go on adventures.
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Nov 19, 2015 19:16
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Megaspel posted:Plenty of women voice actors voice boys, and combined with Ruby's design, the ambiguity has the potential to stop angry homophobic parents from preventing their kids watching the cartoon. Okay so why did they set that ruse up for literally like 3 minutes then drop it in every single other appearance?
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Nov 19, 2015 19:20
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King Crab posted:I think it is just kind of nice to have Marceline and PB be really good mates who hang out and go on adventures. Yes, it's nice when two people break up and can still be friends. 
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Nov 19, 2015 19:22
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Adventure Time Thread posted:faaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaarrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrt
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Nov 19, 2015 19:24
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post fart code is for emergencies only
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Nov 19, 2015 19:25
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I wish sithsaber still posted
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Nov 19, 2015 20:19
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frank.club posted:I wish sithsaber still posted What happened to them anyway?
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