terrible programmers: my god, it's full of chars

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Serious Hardware/Software Crap > YOSPOS > terrible programmers: my god, it's full of chars

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Brain Candy: May 18, 2006

Symbolic Butt posted:

IDEs are great debuggers

but I feel like they're overkill for just like, you know, typing code

typing code is the least important thing i do while programming

# ? Nov 19, 2015 13:14

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# ? May 27, 2024 23:04

Blinkz0rz: May 27, 2001; MY CONTEMPT FOR MY OWN EMPLOYEES IS ONLY MATCHED BY MY LOVE FOR TOM BRADY'S SWEATY MAGA BALLS

Symbolic Butt posted:

IDEs are great debuggers

but I feel like they're overkill for just like, you know, typing code

you act like somehow a text editor that does static analysis is overkill in this era of massively overpowered developer boxes

work gave me a 15" mbp and it starts intellij in a few seconds

basically who gives a poo poo an ide helps you write better code so don't be an obstinate gently caress

# ? Nov 19, 2015 14:08

The Leck: Feb 27, 2001

~Coxy posted:

**your CRUD statements don't count

read this as CHUD statements, got excited briefly

# ? Nov 19, 2015 14:16

jesus WEP: Oct 17, 2004

hurf durf no one need an ide just use vim and integrate these 500 plugins into it

# ? Nov 19, 2015 14:28

Symbolic Butt: Mar 22, 2009; (_!_); Buglord

Blinkz0rz posted:

you act like somehow a text editor that does static analysis is overkill in this era of massively overpowered developer boxes

work gave me a 15" mbp and it starts intellij in a few seconds

basically who gives a poo poo an ide helps you write better code so don't be an obstinate gently caress

it's not even about IDEs being slow, it's just features that I don't use. I don't build code inside the IDE, I don't use source control inside the IDE etc. I trust the command line for most of this stuff.

I'm used to skimming code through vim (which seems to be a big issue to some people) and that's it. also typing, basic word completion is good enough for me. it's mostly personal preference

I leave an IDE open when I can and it's great but I don't actually use the features that much besides debugging

# ? Nov 19, 2015 14:29

Blinkz0rz: May 27, 2001; MY CONTEMPT FOR MY OWN EMPLOYEES IS ONLY MATCHED BY MY LOVE FOR TOM BRADY'S SWEATY MAGA BALLS

also lol if anything at your job is so urgent that you can't wait a few seconds for an ide to open

also who doesn't just leave that poo poo running in the background

# ? Nov 19, 2015 14:29

Captain Foo: May 11, 2004; we vibin'
we slidin'
we breathin'
we dyin'

lol i tried to start using intellij for erlang yesterday but i have no idea where it's sticking the files when i hit Make, it's not in the /out directory like it's supposed to be lomarf@me

# ? Nov 19, 2015 14:39

~Coxy: Dec 9, 2003; R.I.P. Inter-OS Sass - b.2000AD d.2003AD

Symbolic Butt posted:

it's not even about IDEs being slow, it's just features that I don't use. I don't build code inside the IDE, I don't use source control inside the IDE etc. I trust the command line for most of this stuff.

I'm used to skimming code through vim (which seems to be a big issue to some people) and that's it. also typing, basic word completion is good enough for me. it's mostly personal preference

I leave an IDE open when I can and it's great but I don't actually use the features that much besides debugging

building and source control doesn't make your IDE slow

I'll admit there is something to be said for the old days when VS2003 was usable as a text editor but I'd rather have VS2015 and Notepad++ than one tool which did both poorly

# ? Nov 19, 2015 14:52

Brain Candy: May 18, 2006

Symbolic Butt posted:

it's not even about IDEs being slow, it's just features that I don't use. I don't build code inside the IDE, I don't use source control inside the IDE etc. I trust the command line for most of this stuff.

I'm used to skimming code through vim (which seems to be a big issue to some people) and that's it. also typing, basic word completion is good enough for me. it's mostly personal preference

I leave an IDE open when I can and it's great but I don't actually use the features that much besides debugging

the magic of an IDE isn't in the gui, it's that you don't need to fiddle with configuration to add another tool once you've set up your build

debugger - configured
tests - configured
running - configured
REPL - configured
&c

you can bodge together something that works equivalently, but i'm pretty sure you didn't go through the effort of setting up a linter to check your code in vim because it's a pita

# ? Nov 19, 2015 14:53

MononcQc: May 29, 2007

I still use vim to edit every day. I've written about vim and composability before. I use vi bindings in my browser, terminal, tmux.

My dev environment is a bunch of pre-programmed tmux panes and windows: one for the editor, one for running type checks and tests, one for handling source control and diffing, and one for an interactive REPL, for example.

Never felt the need for an IDE based on this. I love working in a terminal and don't want to leave it.

# ? Nov 19, 2015 14:55

Brain Candy: May 18, 2006

that you made your own ide on top of vim is not an argument against ides

# ? Nov 19, 2015 15:00

MononcQc: May 29, 2007

I didn't make an argument against IDEs either.

# ? Nov 19, 2015 15:11

Brain Candy: May 18, 2006

MononcQc posted:

I didn't make an argument against IDEs either.

but i want to argue pointless on the internet

# ? Nov 19, 2015 15:17

Brain Candy: May 18, 2006

i guess the reasonable thing to say here is you want the tools that typically come with ides even if you don't give a crap about keeping everything in once place. and ides are good for dummies like me because they make it easier to try out and add more tools

# ? Nov 19, 2015 15:22

Captain Foo: May 11, 2004; we vibin'
we slidin'
we breathin'
we dyin'

ffllllrrrb i'm not sure I actually need or want to implement a supervision tree in my erlang mafia program? i don't grok

# ? Nov 19, 2015 15:23

Bloody: Mar 3, 2013

JawnV6 posted:

you know what I miss? the time before HDL's when you had a GUI to drag nets around like a caveman instead of using some unambiguous text declaration to express that same thing

so modern schematic entry tools

# ? Nov 19, 2015 15:30

MononcQc: May 29, 2007

Brain Candy posted:

i guess the reasonable thing to say here is you want the tools that typically come with ides even if you don't give a crap about keeping everything in once place. and ides are good for dummies like me because they make it easier to try out and add more tools

Yeah that does sound reasonable. The tooling is nice. If an IDE is the only place to get it, I'm not sure if it's an argument in favor of the IDE or against the tooling available to the language/framework ecosystem though.

Captain Foo posted:

ffllllrrrb i'm not sure I actually need or want to implement a supervision tree in my erlang mafia program? i don't grok

How do you boot your program now?

An OTP app has the following:

an application behaviour, with the start callback function. This function is in charge of starting the top-level supervisor for your app. Having this defined (along with the {mod, the_module_that_implements_the_application_behaviour} in the .app file) will allow you to start booting your app with application:ensure_all_started(mafia_app) (or whatever its name is).
a top-level supervisor. This supervisor will be in charge of booting up all the processes you need. If all you need is a thing that waits for new games to be started, it sets up the structure for that. It may also set up other supervisors awaiting actual games and whatnot.
a bunch of OTP processes. Those can be supervised. If you have non-OTP processes to supervise, take a look at supervisor_bridge, whose role it is to make non-otp procs supervisable.

That's it. The advantage of doing that is that if you use a build tool like rebar3, you can define your release as:

code:

{relx, [
  {release, {mafia, "1.0.0"}, [mafia_app]}
]}

Calling 'rebar3 release' will create a self-executable bundle. Calling 'rebar3 shell' will boot an interactive session for development with the code running. Call 'r3:do(compile)' from that shell and it will hot-load code changes as you go.

So yeah, you kind of want the supervision tree just because that's the best way to go about structuring, releasing and running software in Erlang.

# ? Nov 19, 2015 16:03

Captain Foo: May 11, 2004; we vibin'
we slidin'
we breathin'
we dyin'

I don't boot it, i've barely got one module half-written that sort of interacts with another to print some basic logging and fails to start the actual fsms

so far i've been interacting with it through the shell? maybe i should pay more attention to rebar

# ? Nov 19, 2015 16:19

Jerry Bindle: May 16, 2003

Hey MononcQc, I've had your 'awk in 20 minutes' article book marked for a while, i go back to it everyone once in a while when i need to re-remember some awk stuff. i just now noticed it was your site by the icon in the tab. holy cow. thank you.

# ? Nov 19, 2015 16:20

the talent deficit: Dec 20, 2003; self-deprecation is a very british trait, and problems can arise when the british attempt to do so with a foreign culture

Captain Foo posted:

I don't boot it, i've barely got one module half-written that sort of interacts with another to print some basic logging and fails to start the actual fsms

so far i've been interacting with it through the shell? maybe i should pay more attention to rebar

rebar is an unending pit of existential terrors

rebar3 is good

# ? Nov 19, 2015 16:22

Symbolic Butt: Mar 22, 2009; (_!_); Buglord

Brain Candy posted:

the magic of an IDE isn't in the gui, it's that you don't need to fiddle with configuration to add another tool once you've set up your build

debugger - configured
tests - configured
running - configured
REPL - configured
&c

you can bodge together something that works equivalently, but i'm pretty sure you didn't go through the effort of setting up a linter to check your code in vim because it's a pita

I'm too lazy to learn how each of these features work (and in some cases they don't even work very well, I'm looking at visual studio builds here) for each ide that I stumble into

ironically for me, just using command line tools is the most universal approach

~Coxy posted:

building and source control doesn't make your IDE slow

I didn't say it made them slow, it's just that I don't use them. that's what I meant by "overkill"

~Coxy posted:

I'll admit there is something to be said for the old days when VS2003 was usable as a text editor but I'd rather have VS2015 and Notepad++ than one tool which did both poorly

this is precisely the point that I'm trying to make, IDEs tries to centralize a lot of different tasks and I don't think most of them are better than the equivalent command line tools

# ? Nov 19, 2015 16:27

Captain Foo: May 11, 2004; we vibin'
we slidin'
we breathin'
we dyin'

i belong in this thread

# ? Nov 19, 2015 16:32

Shaggar: Apr 26, 2006

the features being there doesn't mean they're hurting you if you aren't using them. also why wouldn't you use the source control or build tools in the ide? command line tools are garbage

# ? Nov 19, 2015 16:33

The MUMPSorceress: Jan 6, 2012; ^SHTPSTS; Gary’s Answer

For me, the biggest godsend in IDEs is when I have a few theories about where a bug is hiding. It's much easier to throw breakpoints into every file I'm suspicious of and run the whole thing from source than it is to try to track that stuff down one at a time. Just start execution, examine the relevant values each time it breaks, and move that breakpoint if it's not the culprit.

If you're working in the languages VS is good at, some of its other niceties like its extremely smart refactoring tools and its ability to track down includes you forgot based on the methods you're trying to call is really nice.

I guess what I'm arguing is that everything other than VS sucks, and VS is only good at a handful of languages. Half the reason C# is so much better than Java is just the ease and robustness of the tools and libraries. It also helps that .net code can launch COM objects so we didn't have to rewrite our whole drat frontend in one go.

And I agree with Shaggar on this; if you think the command line is easier for anything aside from basic one-liners, you likely haven't learned whatever feature in your IDE thoroughly enough. If committing, for example, is just a matter of a single line to push your changes and you'll never need to resolve anything, that's fine. But if there's a big tangled web of branches out there having visual management tools for your source control really helps you figure out which poo poo is safe to blow away, which you need to merge delicately, and when you need to just go talk to somebody else before proceeding.

# ? Nov 19, 2015 16:40

Symbolic Butt: Mar 22, 2009; (_!_); Buglord

Shaggar posted:

the features being there doesn't mean they're hurting you if you aren't using them.

it's not hurting me, I'm just arguing against the general sentiment of "lol if you don't code inside an ide"

unix is my ide etc, I'm not trying to say the typical "heh I don't depend on IDEs :smug:

". it's just that I won't give up my bespoke tools that I'm used to for half-baked garbage features embedded in ides

# ? Nov 19, 2015 16:44

Shaggar: Apr 26, 2006

unix is a bad ide because the built in tools are crap.

# ? Nov 19, 2015 16:49

The MUMPSorceress: Jan 6, 2012; ^SHTPSTS; Gary’s Answer

Symbolic Butt posted:

it's not hurting me, I'm just arguing against the general sentiment of "lol if you don't code inside an ide"

unix is my ide etc, I'm not trying to say the typical "heh I don't depend on IDEs ". it's just that I won't give up my bespoke tools that I'm used to for half-baked garbage features embedded in ides

You're fine. Unix is the edge-case where I'd just deal with the pain of vim+plugins+other tools because I've literally never encountered an IDE that both targets or linux and doesnt suck balls to work with.

developing for unix or linux sucks balls.

# ? Nov 19, 2015 16:52

Shaggar: Apr 26, 2006

linuxes like unix or bsd or osx or redhate are all bad and you should avoid them. just use windows and java or c# but really mostly c# these days.

# ? Nov 19, 2015 16:53

The MUMPSorceress: Jan 6, 2012; ^SHTPSTS; Gary’s Answer

Shaggar posted:

linuxes like unix or bsd or osx or redhate are all bad and you should avoid them. just use windows and java or c# but really mostly c# these days.

as a server linux is fine, but that's because there's a specialized class of poop-touchers to maintain that poo poo so normal people don't ever have to look at it. one day those people will become the morlocks, and the rest of us will be their unknowing herd.

# ? Nov 19, 2015 17:02

Shaggar: Apr 26, 2006

Linux is not even good for a server cause you can just run it on windows instead. like you litterrally just copy the tomcat installation to windows and install java and ur done. you've replaced Linux.

# ? Nov 19, 2015 17:03

MrMoo: Sep 14, 2000

Shaggar posted:

Linux is not even good for a server cause you can just run it on windows instead. like you litterrally just copy the tomcat installation to windows and install java and ur done. you've replaced Linux.

That kind of is the point.

# ? Nov 19, 2015 17:05

Jerry Bindle: May 16, 2003

my main reason for using linux over windows 7 is that on my work laptop IS installed all this bullshit that slows the system down to a crawl. really kind of ridiculous.

# ? Nov 19, 2015 17:19

Bloody: Mar 3, 2013

Shaggar posted:

the features being there doesn't mean they're hurting you if you aren't using them. also why wouldn't you use the source control or build tools in the ide? command line tools are garbage

b/c sourcetree isnt built in

# ? Nov 19, 2015 17:47

The MUMPSorceress: Jan 6, 2012; ^SHTPSTS; Gary’s Answer

Shaggar posted:

Linux is not even good for a server cause you can just run it on windows instead. like you litterrally just copy the tomcat installation to windows and install java and ur done. you've replaced Linux.

people prefer linux for servers because windows has a zillion extra things you don't need on a server built in which makes it
A)slower
B)more vulnerable to attack

with a linux you can by and large get things stripped down to just what you actually need to run whatever it is you're running. We used to support customers running Cach� on windows, but it was so crazy slow compared to the *nix versions that we axed it. We even supported fuckin OpenVMS longer than Windows.

# ? Nov 19, 2015 17:54

JawnV6: Jul 4, 2004; So hot ...

Symbolic Butt posted:

ironically for me, just using command line tools is the most universal approach

talk about debug

have you learned a mountain of gdb hooks, do you think printf is enough, or do you actually have some reasonable generalizable practice that you use?

that's where IDE's, especially embedded ones that simplify 0x170902 into "dividing main clk by 5895, CPOL=0, CPHA=1, no pending TX," really shine compared to doing things on the cmd line. I still use cmd line git, grep, vim for big merges, i get the general sentiment

# ? Nov 19, 2015 18:46

GameCube: Nov 21, 2006

regex in c++. should i even try?

# ? Nov 19, 2015 18:53

Luigi Thirty: Apr 30, 2006; Emergency confection port.

regex in c++ is about as advisable as parsing HTML in PHP

# ? Nov 19, 2015 18:55

GameCube: Nov 21, 2006

syntax error: 'string'

lol c++

# ? Nov 19, 2015 18:56

Symbolic Butt: Mar 22, 2009; (_!_); Buglord

JawnV6 posted:

talk about debug

have you learned a mountain of gdb hooks, do you think printf is enough, or do you actually have some reasonable generalizable practice that you use?

that's where IDE's, especially embedded ones that simplify 0x170902 into "dividing main clk by 5895, CPOL=0, CPHA=1, no pending TX," really shine compared to doing things on the cmd line. I still use cmd line git, grep, vim for big merges, i get the general sentiment

Symbolic Butt posted:

IDEs are great debuggers

edit: oh yeah, I didn't consider the debugger item at Brain Candy's list :doh:

Symbolic Butt fucked around with this message at 19:00 on Nov 19, 2015

# ? Nov 19, 2015 18:56

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# ? May 27, 2024 23:04

Luigi Thirty: Apr 30, 2006; Emergency confection port.

what are you trying to do?

# ? Nov 19, 2015 18:56

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