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MikeCrotch posted:Got a question for any serious air nerds out there. So I was always under the impression (I think from the Il-2 manual :sperg:) that dive bombers performed their dives by inverting over the target and pulling into the dive, so they would be pulling positives Gs. But when i've been reading about the Pacific war all US and Japanese dive bombing refers to a 'push-over point' and pushing the aircraft over into the dive, at something like 70% for a steep dive. Wouldn't this produce huge negative G, or is the pushover gentle enough so that you don't get any bad effects from it? This video is a pretty cool overview. You can really see how the plane maneuvers into the dive. Basically, you're right that the plane would be pulling a lot of negative Gs during the start of the dive. For carbureted engines this would indeed starve them of fuel for a bit. This wasn't a particularly big deal though, they weren't trying to maintain speed/energy in the same way a fighter would be. In fact, they went to some considerable lengths to slow the planes down further (dive flaps, etc) in the dive. It was a much bigger deal for fighters: every shred of energy was important, and it really sucked to have your engine cut out while your opponent's didn't.
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Nov 19, 2015 21:10
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bewbies posted:This video is a pretty cool overview. You can really see how the plane maneuvers into the dive. Dive bombers were also pretty cool in that they were about as close to precision-bombing as was possible in WWII. I doubt Dick Best was aiming for anything other than an unencumbered spot of deck when his flight wrecked the Akagi (was it the Akagi? Going with Akagi.) but it was deadeye compared to the flight of level bombers that had to sight through clouds from 15k feet and give the carriers enough lead time to straight-up dodge the bombs.
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Nov 19, 2015 21:47
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FAUXTON posted:Dive bombers were also pretty cool in that they were about as close to precision-bombing as was possible in WWII. I doubt Dick Best was aiming for anything other than an unencumbered spot of deck when his flight wrecked the Akagi (was it the Akagi? Going with Akagi.) but it was deadeye compared to the flight of level bombers that had to sight through clouds from 15k feet and give the carriers enough lead time to straight-up dodge the bombs. I think he just aimed for the big ol meatball painted on the deck.
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Nov 19, 2015 22:08
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P-Mack posted:I think he just aimed for the big ol meatball painted on the deck. As good a spot as anything, probably better because it's hard to lose track of a big ol' sunburst compared to some random spot or hatch.
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Nov 19, 2015 22:14
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FAUXTON posted:Dive bombers were also pretty cool in that they were about as close to precision-bombing as was possible in WWII. I doubt Dick Best was aiming for anything other than an unencumbered spot of deck when his flight wrecked the Akagi (was it the Akagi? Going with Akagi.) but it was deadeye compared to the flight of level bombers that had to sight through clouds from 15k feet and give the carriers enough lead time to straight-up dodge the bombs. Yeah, it's kind of hilarious how those bombers didn't amount to anything despite the loads of bombs they dropped during the battle. However, from the Japanese perspective, they were constantly under attack and the various bomber flights never gave them any respite. Probably not the most efficient contribution but it helped.
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Nov 19, 2015 23:13
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Argas posted:Yeah, it's kind of hilarious how those bombers didn't amount to anything despite the loads of bombs they dropped during the battle. However, from the Japanese perspective, they were constantly under attack and the various bomber flights never gave them any respite. Probably not the most efficient contribution but it helped. It's also problematic to launch and recover aircraft while evading bombs.
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Nov 19, 2015 23:19
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Argas posted:Yeah, it's kind of hilarious how those bombers didn't amount to anything despite the loads of bombs they dropped during the battle. However, from the Japanese perspective, they were constantly under attack and the various bomber flights never gave them any respite. Probably not the most efficient contribution but it helped. A B-26 did almost slam into the Akagi's conn tower.
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Nov 19, 2015 23:21
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So I linked the Jonathon Parshall video about German tank production on the Hearts of Iron IV forums since I do really hope that can be abstractly modeled somehow in game (In Hoi2: Arsenal of Democracy you could do this, by having long serial production lines with few upgrades or short ones with high upgrade investment). The responses are funny and make me very happy I discovered this thread. Link if people want to check it out. Reading the thread brought up this video by The Chieftan from World of Tanks; which was cool to see a bunch of myths debunked here debunked there, some recent topics too!
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Nov 19, 2015 23:24
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HEY GAL posted:did someone say superstitions in war? quote:Abu Omar, a Syrian whose wispy beard hinted at his jihadist sympathies, 
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Nov 20, 2015 00:34
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Raenir Salazar posted:So I linked the Jonathon Parshall video about German tank production on the Hearts of Iron IV forums since I do really hope that can be abstractly modeled somehow in game (In Hoi2: Arsenal of Democracy you could do this, by having long serial production lines with few upgrades or short ones with high upgrade investment). I'm pretty sure they specifically modeled production line mechanics so that there's an incentive for longer runs and converting old chassis to tank destroyers, so you're probably in luck. Also that thread is so much better than I expected a paradox forum thread to be. As far as I can tell there's actually a pretty good sized shift in the common understanding of the war, and that's awesome.
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Nov 20, 2015 01:42
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xthetenth posted:Also that thread is so much better than I expected a paradox forum thread to be. As far as I can tell there's actually a pretty good sized shift in the common understanding of the war, and that's awesome.
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Nov 20, 2015 01:44
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Holy poo poo, a guy with a talking beard? I'd listen to a hell of a lot of things if it were being presented as a duologue between a dude and his talking beard.
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Nov 20, 2015 01:44
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What's the thread's take on the web series The Great War? I mean the dude can't pronounce foreign names for poo poo but otherwise it seems pretty legit.
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Nov 20, 2015 01:45
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HEY GAL posted:paradox games are complicated and for nerds, go ask gbs or imgur about world war 2 and see what you get 
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Nov 20, 2015 02:19
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i'm the japanese battleship
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Nov 20, 2015 03:16
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HEY GAL posted:paradox games are complicated and for nerds, go ask gbs or imgur about world war 2 and see what you get What I mean is that a few years ago there might've been one heroic soul not touching themselves to thoughts of zee glorious natsees in that entire thread. It's gotten a lot better among nerds with an interest via nerdgames.
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Nov 20, 2015 05:05
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HEY GAL posted:i'm the japanese battleship I'm the lovingly-drawn zebra genitals.
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Nov 20, 2015 07:47
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I'll be the zebra shin about to tenderize nazi crotch 
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Nov 20, 2015 08:19
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Gargamel Gibson posted:What's the thread's take on the web series The Great War? I mean the dude can't pronounce foreign names for poo poo but otherwise it seems pretty legit. It's pretty good. There's quite a few things I'd like to talk to them about but I'm pretty sure for most people it's just rivet-counting. Anyone who devotes an entire episode to the Senussi Campaign is doing worthwhile work.
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Nov 20, 2015 10:45
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Milhist thread: I'll be the zebra shin about to tenderize nazi crotch
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Nov 20, 2015 11:25
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So did we ever discuss the movie "1944"? It looks kinda cool.
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Nov 20, 2015 15:11
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That looks pretty good. I hope there is a scene where one German just straight out explains why they hosed up and how the Red Army got it's groove back correctly. I am so tired of explaining to people the Russian hordes thing is incorrect and rascist. Props to you guys fighting pop culture ignorance as a profession. You have patience of saints.
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Nov 20, 2015 15:47
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SeanBeansShako posted:That looks pretty good. I hope there is a scene where one German just straight out explains why they hosed up and how the Red Army got it's groove back correctly. From watching that scene though I kinda doubt it. Where's the Russian artillery and katyusha barrages? Il-2's flying overhead? Where's the self propelled guns? Why aren't they taking cover behind their tanks? The infantry tactics seem circla 1941 not 1944.
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Nov 20, 2015 16:16
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I'm actually a tad impressed by that, at least on an equipment level. Especially by the fact that the show the Germans using a mix of soviet weapons in there. I know I spotted at least one SVT40 and a PPSh41. As a bonus the tanks didn't explode into giant fireballs or anything when knocked out.
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Nov 20, 2015 16:21
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Raenir Salazar posted:From watching that scene though I kinda doubt it. Where's the Russian artillery and katyusha barrages? Il-2's flying overhead? Where's the self propelled guns? Why aren't they taking cover behind their tanks? The infantry tactics seem circla 1941 not 1944. Eh, I'm not too concerned by that. First off we don't know the context of the assault. Not every single engagement in 1944 was a combined arms masterpiece. For all we know it could have been a diversionary thing or just something to keep pressure on the line. 4 tanks and maybe a company or two isn't exactly a high priority assault needing battalion level arty and air support. Second, and someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm pretty sure clustering behind/around tanks was a really good way to get killed. Not only did it bunch you up, but it also just exposed you to all the fire that was incoming on the tanks.
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Nov 20, 2015 16:26
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If it's about the Battle of the Tannenberg Line, it's about SovietHordesTM
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Nov 20, 2015 16:26
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my dad posted:If it's about the Battle of the Tannenberg Line, it's about SovietHordesTM Being held off by plucky Waffen SS soldiers to boot.
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Nov 20, 2015 16:31
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uuuuugh don't read the comments on that film. god why did I do that 
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Nov 20, 2015 16:32
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Cyrano4747 posted:uuuuugh don't read the comments on that film. god why did I do that Pretty much anything with military/WW2 was the final straw with me and YouTube comments before I said gently caress all internet comments and got that plug in for my browser that just disables them.
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Nov 20, 2015 16:33
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Cyrano4747 posted:Eh, I'm not too concerned by that. First off we don't know the context of the assault. Not every single engagement in 1944 was a combined arms masterpiece. For all we know it could have been a diversionary thing or just something to keep pressure on the line. 4 tanks and maybe a company or two isn't exactly a high priority assault needing battalion level arty and air support. Correct. Infantry goes in front of the tanks to sniff out AT guns and obstructions. The best way to support infantry for a tank is to knock out MG nests from behind, not serve as a fairly narrow shield. That said, armored sleds being towed behind a tank is a sweet way to swiftly transport infantry very quickly during the winter. Interestingly enough, when you look at Soviet mixed type tank tactics, they change. In heterogeneous 1941-42 tank units, the big poo poo like KVs goes first, than T-34s, then T-60s. In 1944-45, IS-2s (if there are any) trail behind the T-34s, at least initially. That's what you get when your heavy tank finally gets a much better gun than your medium one.
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Nov 20, 2015 16:46
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The tactics in that clip are loving terrible, but it's hard to find a movie where they aren't. The main thing is there is no fire coming from the Soviets, filmakers have some weird obsession with making the attacking side just run at the other side with everyone. The DP-28s you see dudes running around with would have been used to try and keep the Germans down in the trenches so the other could get into grenade range, not run across the killing grounds like a dumbass. I had some hope once the russians started to lay down near the trench, but turns out only mighty Germans know how to use grenades. Only bit that is somewhat credible is when the dude gets on the MGs and cuts down half a squad, since having machineguns you thought knocked out come back would be a nasty surprise. All in all, the way this poo poo would have actually gone would be for the tanks to stay a few hundred meters back and sling HE and MG fire at anything that looks suspicious, the infantry would advance until under fire, once a squad takes fire it goes to ground and takes some sort of cover if it can and everyone near tries his best to make the offending German keep his head down, while the rest continue. The goal being to get into grenade range and blow the gently caress out of the MGs and any obvious firing position. Once that's accomplished you'd then see people standing up in mass and running the last 15m or so into the trench for the nasty close quarters cleanup. Equipment wise it's surprisingly accurate, the only thing that jumped out at me is that the antitank gun you see early on is a 37mm Pak 36, that thing would be completely useless versus a T-34-85 from the front, it would be emplaced for side shots if they bothered to use it at all. Kafouille fucked around with this message at 18:01 on Nov 20, 2015 |
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Nov 20, 2015 17:43
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We'll never get a film that covers how it happened in real life. Real life always loses in a battle with the rule of cool and cinematography tag team.
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Nov 20, 2015 17:52
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SeanBeansShako posted:We'll never get a film that covers how it happened in real life. Real life always loses in a battle with the rule of cool and cinematography tag team. But the way Kafouille describes how the battle should go sounds pretty cool and cinematic as is?
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Nov 20, 2015 17:55
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SeanBeansShako posted:That looks pretty good. I hope there is a scene where one German just straight out explains why they hosed up and how the Red Army got it's groove back correctly. Care to elaborate? I mean, I know Russia didn't win just by throwing endless hordes of men at their quarry, but apart from that and rehabilitating their general staff, it's still kind of indistinct what exactly turned the tide for the Red Army for me.
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Nov 20, 2015 17:56
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Tias posted:Care to elaborate? I mean, I know Russia didn't win just by throwing endless hordes of men at their quarry, but apart from that and rehabilitating their general staff, it's still kind of indistinct what exactly turned the tide for the Red Army for me. Part of it is getting really good combined arms going, part is doing so well at operational level stuff that with a slight advantage in force, they continually leveraged it to keep hammering Germany with overwhelming local superiority. I have a feeling that the latter is part of the genesis for the hordes myth when filtered through amateurs' understanding of war.
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Nov 20, 2015 17:59
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Tias posted:Care to elaborate? I mean, I know Russia didn't win just by throwing endless hordes of men at their quarry, but apart from that and rehabilitating their general staff, it's still kind of indistinct what exactly turned the tide for the Red Army for me. More material which was generally equal or better to what the germans had, which they were able to make better use of due to more robust logistics and ultimately at least as good use of tactics as the germans employed for their initial success in the invasion, the russians got really good at focusing a huge amount of men and machines at a point and just breaking the german line and then exploiting that.
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Nov 20, 2015 18:09
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sullat posted:Being held off by plucky Waffen SS soldiers to boot. actually the movie is supposed to be about Estonians who were forced to fight on both sides. was made in Estonia and apparently was a huge deal there
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Nov 20, 2015 18:12
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Davin Valkri posted:But the way Kafouille describes how the battle should go sounds pretty cool and cinematic as is? But is it cost effective? Will our focus groups like it? I'm feeling we need a romantic triangle in this too. Does the IL-2 HAVE to hate the Panzer column?
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Nov 20, 2015 18:13
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bewbies posted:actually the movie is supposed to be about Estonians who were forced to fight on both sides. Well, not necessarily forced to fight for the Germans, in reality. I mean, the Soviets had already annexed their country once just a few years earlier, it was pretty obvious that it wasn't going to be sunshine and butterflies there after the Germans were defeated.
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Nov 20, 2015 18:18
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Strategically the main thing the Soviets did was heavily reinforcing success. Instead of having rigid battleplans where they decided on a map where the main push would be, they would have a a large section of the front in a sector attack at once, with the aim of finding weakpoints in the line. Most of those attacks would be repulsed (That doesn't mean slaughtered, the commanders knew the initial attacks were probes) but a few would make progress. Those spots would get a large influx of reinforcements, with the others withdrawing and reorganising. That would continue, and as the Germans would commit reserves to the most pressing points of the line the Soviets would start reinforcing the other spearheads and go around the hardpoints that way. The end result if successful would be one or two deep penetrations into the German lines that would then process to try to meet to form a new frontline and encircle the Germans they bypassed. As far as i know this basic setup stayed the way the Soviets would plan for war until the end of the USSR, and it's a very solid approach that tends to overwork and overwhelm the enemy general staff while being fairly simple to put into action and has the built-in assumption that poo poo is going to go wrong and how to deal with it. Kafouille fucked around with this message at 18:57 on Nov 20, 2015 |
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Nov 20, 2015 18:24
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