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Puppy Galaxy posted:I'm on board with your second point. Not sure about your first one though. The show isn't a satire. Just because the guy probably isn't magical doesn't make up for the fact that the character embodies every other trait, and lamp shading it was a lazy way of getting viewers to side with the show. The point is that he DOESN'T embody every other trait. It is not just that he isn't magical, but that he clearly has his own agenda and his own past to deal with. Again, think of the classical examples of "magical negro" already presented: Dick Halloran in the shining, or Speedy Parker in the Talisman, or several of Morgan Freeman's characters (like the one in Robin Hood). What makes them part of the trope isn't just the magic or mysticism, but the fact that they have no other point, no other motivation other than to help the white protagonist get through whatever issue they are going through. We don't know what will happen with Kevin, but that scene pretty clearly indicates Virgil had ulterior motives and was lying to Kevin. As such, it doesn't fit the trope in any way (and not just because there wasn't any actual magic involved). n3wt posted:Speculation on the AVclub is that the aptly named Virgil killed himself to guide Kevin in his afterlife journey. I can pretty much guarantee that that is not whats going to happen (as there would be no need to empty the syringe if that was the case). But in the odd chance that that is what Virgil claims to be doing, it would only be the "magical negro"" trope if Virgil actually did guide him in some after life confrontation, as opposed to being a crazy person who thinks he can do it but just kills himself.
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Nov 17, 2015 19:51
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Puppy Galaxy posted:I'm on board with your second point. Not sure about your first one though. The show isn't a satire. Just because the guy probably isn't magical doesn't make up for the fact that the character embodies every other trait, and lamp shading it was a lazy way of getting viewers to side with the show. I think I can side with the show because the Murphy family has a deep and interesting story and their own characters and motivations rather than just being bit pieces in a story about the white family. Not because the writers winked at me.
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Nov 17, 2015 20:59
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n3wt posted:The info we got about Virgil and how he hurt John was very interesting: if he used supernatural woowoo to explain his crimes and then that he was amazingly ~*~cured~*~ then it makes sense that John, like anyone else, would call bullshit. Pedos always have someone or something else to blame for their actions. drat good point!
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Nov 17, 2015 21:05
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Invalid Validation posted:I like to think Kevin figured the hand print out and threatened the old man to help kill (ex)hotcop. Do you mean John? Kevin is the ex-cop.
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Nov 17, 2015 21:40
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Puppy Galaxy posted:I'm on board with your second point. Not sure about your first one though. The show isn't a satire. Just because the guy probably isn't magical doesn't make up for the fact that the character embodies every other trait, and lamp shading it was a lazy way of getting viewers to side with the show. My alarm bells were ringing when the writers leaned incredibly hard into the Magical Negro archetype introducing Virgil, but come on, his magical powers 'saved' a lunatic who lives up a pillar, he (apparently) violently betrays Kevin for his own agenda, and they made his cosy Uncle Tom desexualisation a consequence of him being shot in the crotch by his own son for being a pederast. Kevin was faced with a choice between a dubiously born-again sex offender's death magic and an earnest, rational psychoanalysis, he chose the first one because it was offered by a superficially selfless folksy black man and not his slightly-too-satisfied ex-wife, and it blew up in his face. I'm not about to say whether they've actually pulled off some postmodernist redemption of the Magical Negro, because A) we need to see what actually happens next week and B) I'm white as hell, but you can't think there's not deliberate, darkly comic subversion going on. In any case it'll be better than their attempt to make Holy Wayne transcend the trope because making Wayne a smug English cynic didn't really make him any less a disposable catalyst for Tommy's lame fuckaround season 1 plotline, and he still got helplessly rolled into his grave by the rationalist white world. Although there's no way Kevin is gone for good, Virgil's play hopefully has more to do with the Murphys than the Garveys, and the Murphys are actually well-realised black characters with a non-arbitrary relationship to him.
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Nov 17, 2015 22:00
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So time to bury Garvey in a box in the forest so he lives again rite?
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Nov 18, 2015 01:02
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Last Chance posted:So time to bury Garvey in a box in the forest so he lives again rite? It sounded like a pretty loose dosage. My guess is he wakes up wherever Michael left him, and would have anyway. Just to keep the supernatural in a Mario style question mark block.
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Nov 18, 2015 01:08
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SLOSifl posted:It sounded like a pretty loose dosage. My guess is he wakes up wherever Michael left him, and would have anyway. Just to keep the supernatural in a Mario style question mark block. Heart stopped (supposedly) which doesn't just start back up by itself. If he lives, Michael saves him
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Nov 18, 2015 02:48
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blarzgh posted:drat good point! I talked about this with my roommate, and he was convinced that it wasn't John who had been molested, but John's son. He must've found out about it and then shot Virgil, rather than as sudden payback for something that had happened to him as a kid. This would make John's son hanging around Virgil a thousand times more disturbing, but also explain why he seems to be buying into his weird cult of personality, assuming he doesn't fully remember what happened to him. I don't know if there's evidence to support this one way or another, though, since I also assumed it was John himself.
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Nov 18, 2015 02:51
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Hakkesshu posted:I talked about this with my roommate, and he was convinced that it wasn't John who had been molested, but John's son. He must've found out about it and then shot Virgil, rather than as sudden payback for something that had happened to him as a kid. This would make John's son hanging around Virgil a thousand times more disturbing, but also explain why he seems to be buying into his weird cult of personality, assuming he doesn't fully remember what happened to him. Might also be another reason for his lack of desire for sex.
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Nov 18, 2015 03:24
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GimpChimp posted:
Its probably more that the black guy played into his delusion assuming it is one. A guy I grew up with has schizophrenia. It went full blown somewhere around his early twenties, he's fine now, like an odd dude when he's stable anyway but relatively he's good. Anyway part of why he found it very difficult to accept jesus wasn't really talking to him was because the holy joes he encountered through the delusion played into it. It kind of always started as a "who are you going to believe, me or your lying eyes?" kind of deal or in this case ears i guess and then with people to agree with you and talk about similar experiences well yeah. It probably didn't help he disliked his social worker and shrink. So I thought Kevin's decision made sense however irrational it was
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Nov 18, 2015 03:38
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Hakkesshu posted:I talked about this with my roommate, and he was convinced that it wasn't John who had been molested, but John's son. He must've found out about it and then shot Virgil, rather than as sudden payback for something that had happened to him as a kid. This would make John's son hanging around Virgil a thousand times more disturbing, but also explain why he seems to be buying into his weird cult of personality, assuming he doesn't fully remember what happened to him. I think its clearly John that he diddled, especially if you recall John's wife's reaction to him - I would expect a more visceral reaction from her if it had been Michael (or Eve!) Then again, it was 8 - 10 years before the events of the show that John went to prison, so its easier to believe it was one of the kids rather than John finally snapping 20 years after the abuse.
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Nov 18, 2015 04:31
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blarzgh posted:I think its clearly John that he diddled, especially if you recall John's wife's reaction to him - I would expect a more visceral reaction from her if it had been Michael (or Eve!) Then again, it was 8 - 10 years before the events of the show that John went to prison, so its easier to believe it was one of the kids rather than John finally snapping 20 years after the abuse. Yeah I'm thinking it was John more and more. At first I thought it was clearly Michael, but if it was Michael... and Eve would have learned that Michael had been over there she probably would have burned the place down without hesitation.
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Nov 18, 2015 04:36
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Has it been established that he's John's Father and not his wife's? I just thought he was the wife's father during her episode cuz she told Nora about how her mother or grandmother would tell her the bird resurrection story as a kid and Old Man pedo seemed to know the same story and keep birds around specifically for that purpose.
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Nov 18, 2015 14:30
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savinhill posted:Has it been established that he's John's Father and not his wife's? I just thought he was the wife's father during her episode cuz she told Nora about how her mother or grandmother would tell her the bird resurrection story as a kid and Old Man pedo seemed to know the same story and keep birds around specifically for that purpose. I remember thinking it was her father while she was confronting him.
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Nov 18, 2015 15:33
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blarzgh posted:I remember thinking it was her father while she was confronting him. I thought so too but Virgil specifically says that he hurt John a long time ago then refers to his foul machinery and we're supposed to put the two together. Abuse survivors often take a long time to break out of shame, denial, self blaming and whatever mindfuck the abuser did to them. John probably snapped after seeing Virgil with his son Michael and it all coming back to him. The wife Erika figured what was up when he shot Virgil in the dick and they talked about it when he went to jail. I'm guessing from the town's attitude towards John and the fact that Virgil's shack hasn't been pastered with PEDO graffiti or burned down, that there was no trial and all anyone knows is that there was a family dispute. Wonder if Michael even knows the full details if he's out there praying with him, or maybe he bought the "saved from demons by death" woowoo Virgil believes. Michael's saintly but you gotta hope he's smart enough to know that keeping that rapist in his life causes terrible pain to his parents. There's a special place in hell for those who insist that *family* and *forgiveness* trump all and that people should stay in contact with toxic family members despite the constant reopening of wounds. edit to add NY times article: quote:The fact that Virgil has resurrected before. As Virgil tells it, after he was shot by John, he returned from death cleansed of sin. Which explains what John meant in “Axis Mundi” when he said of his attempted murder charge, “I didn’t try hard enough.” It also explains why John is such an anti-believer; he can’t abide the idea that God would save the man who caused him such pain. (Knowing that John may have been the victim of abuse also sheds some light on why John previously got so irked when Matt refused to admit he raped Mary.) n3wt fucked around with this message at 16:57 on Nov 18, 2015 |
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Nov 18, 2015 16:50
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n3wt posted:(Knowing that John may have been the victim of abuse also sheds some light on why John previously got so irked when Matt refused to admit he raped Mary.)  Holy poo poo, this season is so good.
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Nov 18, 2015 17:38
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I really hope we get a third season
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Nov 18, 2015 18:49
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THA TITTY THRILLER posted:
So many details hidden in the character interactions and so much going in all of their heads. It's been a great year for intense TV that doesn't treat you like an idiot and lets you figure stuff out; TV that's written so the rewatch is just as good, if not better, instead of going for cheap out of character twists. Nora leaving was a shock but makes sense with the character and what's she's been going through. Kevin choosing a dangerous spiritual quest and the belief that Patti is something real over "It's all you, Patti is you" and anti-psychotics makes sense when you know about his dad and his own adventures with dog killing man. John seemed like an irrational petty angry man who was all about control, turns out he's all about protecting folks in his way. and Matt's choices this season are the same stubborn clinging to faith and need for a purpose as last season: if living in the camp seems crazy, this is the man who decided to try to convert GR members with love and thought pigeons were communicating gods message to him.
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Nov 18, 2015 20:47
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n3wt posted:So many details hidden in the character interactions and so much going in all of their heads. I'm really liking Matt's character btw. I'm glad it's expanded and he's (both actor and character) have been given more room. I didn't really like him in Season 1 but he's one of my faves now in Season 2. edit: Also my wife pointed out that Kevin doesn't wear eyeliner anymore in Season 2 (it bothered the poo poo out of her in season 1).
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Nov 18, 2015 21:33
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n3wt posted:So many details hidden in the character interactions and so much going in all of their heads. I think this season in particular has done an excellent job at using the story to explain unrealistic behaviors with realistic motivations. There's so much unusual behavior on the show but it all makes sense in-universe.
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Nov 18, 2015 22:20
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I started watching this season when the third episode was already out, because I wasn't all that impressed by the first season. At this point I look forward to this more than anything else on Sunday nights. Unlike the first season though I've stopped asking why, and I am just enjoying one hell of a ride.
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Nov 19, 2015 00:38
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Iakona posted:I started watching this season when the third episode was already out, because I wasn't all that impressed by the first season. At this point I look forward to this more than anything else on Sunday nights. Unlike the first season though I've stopped asking why, and I am just enjoying one hell of a ride. Tell me that you've managed to find time to watch the first couple episodes that you missed from this season.
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Nov 20, 2015 02:04
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Iakona posted:I started watching this season when the third episode was already out, because I wasn't all that impressed by the first season. At this point I look forward to this more than anything else on Sunday nights. Unlike the first season though I've stopped asking why, and I am just enjoying one hell of a ride. I think the first season really was just too dark. I remember thinking that it was the most depressing show that I'd ever seen and was more or less a meditation on hopelessness. That's fine, but it's not appealing to most people and even people like me who find it intriguing can't love it. This season does a much better job of mixing in hopefulness. Seeing Jill go from positive to angry, for instance far more interesting than only seeing her angry.
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Nov 20, 2015 06:22
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AndyElusive posted:Tell me that you've managed to find time to watch the first couple episodes that you missed from this season. I think he means that he didn't start watching until the third episode was out because he wasn't sure it was going to be good. I am sure he has watched from the beginning.
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Nov 21, 2015 01:16
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boy, did that loveable scamp Wilfred get Ryan into a jam this time
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Nov 22, 2015 05:21
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Yeah obviously I started at the first episode of the season. I just wasn't all that interested in another season full of depressing poo poo. Even though it had its moments.
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Nov 22, 2015 10:18
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I haven't read the entire thread, so apologies if this has been covered, but I've been wondering something: did Patti found the entire GR? I think it's at least a possibility.
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Nov 22, 2015 17:32
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Poor Kevin, always waking up wondering WTF? Edit: Pattie for president! tomapot fucked around with this message at 03:37 on Nov 23, 2015 |
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Nov 23, 2015 03:05
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Holy crap, it's Neal.
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Nov 23, 2015 03:44
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Guy A. Person posted:Holy crap, it's Neal. Literally. Edit: or maybe purgatory crap, not holy crap. tomapot fucked around with this message at 03:52 on Nov 23, 2015 |
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Nov 23, 2015 03:48
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Holy poo poo.
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Nov 23, 2015 04:29
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Holy poo poo
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Nov 23, 2015 04:47
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Jesus what is going on. I enjoyed the ep but I really hope they steer back to reality and no more ghosty poo poo for the final 2 eps.
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Nov 23, 2015 04:47
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Wraith of J.O.I. posted:Jesus what is going on. I enjoyed the ep but I really hope they steer back to reality and no more ghosty poo poo for the final 2 eps. I think that we are gearing up for a thunder dome style showdown between Garvey and the arsonist firefighter.
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Nov 23, 2015 04:50
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What?
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Nov 23, 2015 04:50
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Nov 23, 2015 05:13
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Bulky Bartokomous posted:Every week before it starts I think this run can't continue, and yet it does.
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Nov 23, 2015 05:18
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loving loved that episode, for some reason it reminded me of a trial from a Sandman/Lucifer storyline.
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Nov 23, 2015 05:20
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So very, very good and wonderful. I love how this show is walking the line between the mundane and wonderful. What a pleasure to watch.
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Nov 23, 2015 06:05
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