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Pot Pie posted:Kevin cries in pretty much every episode, I love it. Theroux is really good at it. The regret and pain in his face and voice when he tells little Patti "It's not true" that she deserves to die is beyond palpable. He and both Patti actresses were amazing.
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Nov 24, 2015 01:17
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So much good stuff in this episode The "adorn thyself" closet with the 4 costumes, the priest, guilty remnant outfit, cop and international assassin. We later see a cop with a hood over his head and a weeping priest. The get well soon card from his father literally meaning "get to the well soon." The bodyguard telling him to make like jesus and then he rises from the dead after three days (the burying ritual is for 3 days right?)
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Nov 24, 2015 02:03
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 That was loving insane. I was glued to the TV the entire time. I liked the callback to the cave collapse in episode one. That Patti body double was pretty good at improv.
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Nov 24, 2015 02:03
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Oh one thing I was totally lost on - whats with the multiple arguing medical people and the emergency organ transplant? Who is it for/which organ?
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Nov 24, 2015 02:04
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I'm so happy this show exists.
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Nov 24, 2015 02:32
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joepinetree posted:Issues 1 and 2 are not explained and will not be explained. There is no way for Kevin to know, and likely there will be no way for Kevin to know. He knows, because Laurie told him, that Neil was a massive rear end in a top hat to Patti and likely to have caused a lot of her mental issues. He may be in the afterlife with Kevin. Or that is simply Kevin's subconscious, since Kevin has demonstrated more empathy for Patti when she was alive than most, likely because of all the crap he heard she went through from Laurie. Thanks! I think that works and really helps, on the bird issue. I either didn't catch all that or didn't remember it, particularly the taxidermy, which I can take your word on. I probably could have or should have gotten it eventually if I had rewatched or combed through enough of the episodes, or at least the right parts. I will point out that rewatching and combing through parts of the current and past episodes is something I have totally been doing. Just didn't do it enough or with the right parts here. Anyway, I do think Virgil is so obsessed with birds because of the Jarden bird legend, but that doesn't matter here since I now think Kevin (who almost certainly doesn't know that legend) knows enough about Virgil+birds to imagine that bit up on his own. That bit with Virgil and the birds does seem even more meaningful if you look at it with the afterlife view instead of the dream view, but that's no big deal: there's bound to be tons of stuff in that episode that mean even more or work even better with either the dream view or the afterlife view versus the other. What counts is that either view remains tenable, and I'm optimistic to convinced on that front. I had a similar viewing experience with the Watership Down movie, specifically how the movie works equally well viewing the rabbits' religious/mythological views as being a literally true depiction of what is actually going on and as being just the rabbits' cultural gloss on a colder, less supernatural reality. Wouldn't have liked the movie as much if both views hadn't been tenable. I would like to point out I would be totally OK with the Leftovers eventually explaining what happened with Evie and the other two girls in the car, though of course it could just as easily leave that unexplained. Not every mystery in this show has to stay a mystery, just a certain one (or ones).
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Nov 24, 2015 02:40
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DebonaireD posted:Oh one thing I was totally lost on - whats with the multiple arguing medical people and the emergency organ transplant? Who is it for/which organ? I thought more about that on the rewatch. My theory is the hotel is a place where other people on similar missions were in action. They seemed to be meeting in the parking garage just like Kevin and his guide and not wanting anyone to hear what they were talking about. E: Also Neal tells Kevin half the people don't remember their own name and half running around doing crazy stuff like him. Bulky Bartokomous fucked around with this message at 03:43 on Nov 24, 2015 |
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Nov 24, 2015 02:45
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I don't mind if we never get a definitive answer on whether this quest was an NDE, dream, real spiritual voyage or a bad trip because the point was that Kevin needed to make peace with his sympathies for Patti and accept the fact that he understands her insane beliefs. He hated Patti and the GR for the pain they caused his family and his town but Patti sensed something in him which is why she had such a powerful psychological hold over him and her suicide affected him so much that he went and dug her up. Kevin's world has been certainly been apocalyptic since the departure. The supernatural has been ambiguously there from his interactions with his father to the feral dogs to his blackouts, his ghost and a lifesaving earthquake. He needed to come to terms with his sympathies with the devil that was Patti because on some gut level, he too believes that the world ended: it's been there, eating at him and he's been in denial. He could also see the broken person behind the sadistic cult leader and he felt for her when he beat her up and she committed suicide, they had a wierd bond that he needed to deal with, maybe even grieve... In the lie detector scene: why do you smoke? because I'm addicted to nicotine. *red light for lying* why do you smoke? I smoke to remember that the world ended. *no light* In the Senator meeting scene: She discusses how caring is irrelevant now - that's something Kevin can never embrace: he saved little Patti from drowning and "killed" Neal. In other notes: The guy on the bridge might be Miracle tower guy. The birth through bathtub water then resurrection through dirt was beautifully done The dad on TV "hosed up on on this poo poo they call God's tongue" in aboriginal paint, lighting a fire in a hotel room was so absurdly hilarious. Virgil's instructions weren't that good w/r/t killing Patti (why?) Holy Wayne! Man, he should have had more screentime last season, he's amazing. I'm going to miss Patti after her fantastic sassy, ultra dark humour this season, the senator Patti's great monologue & the moments in the well. Not gonna call this going full LOST unless Virgil wakes up (improbable) or Mary seems to have had a moment (possible). If Virgil doesn't wake up , the poison could have been something like pufferfish that puts you in a coma for a few days. argh this show.
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Nov 24, 2015 04:20
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Borrowed Ladder posted:loving loved that episode, for some reason it reminded me of a trial from a Sandman/Lucifer storyline. I thought that immediately.
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Nov 24, 2015 04:31
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Bulky Bartokomous posted:I thought more about that on the rewatch. My theory is the hotel is a place where other people on similar missions were in action. They seemed to be meeting in the parking garage just like Kevin and his guide and not wanting anyone to hear what they were talking about. I like this theory that the spanish speaking organ deliverer is a fellow vision quester. Seems oddly specific though... and if the get well card came from Kevin's dad, who sent Mary the balloons?
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Nov 24, 2015 04:32
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DebonaireD posted:I like this theory that the spanish speaking organ deliverer is a fellow vision quester. Seems oddly specific though... and if the get well card came from Kevin's dad, who sent Mary the balloons? My guess would be Matt. Maybe thoughts, or prayers or his constant talking to her manifests on the other side that way?
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Nov 24, 2015 05:13
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Bulky Bartokomous posted:My guess would be Matt. Maybe thoughts, or prayers or his constant talking to her manifests on the other side that way? So I'm guessing Matt is going to find out about this via Kevin or Michael somehow and is going to be deadset on going on a journey to go get Mary which will be ill advised and go horribly wrong.
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Nov 24, 2015 05:16
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By the way, this was the symphony that was playing throughout the episode: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Va,_pensiero "Va, pensiero" (Italian: [va penˈsjɛro]), also known in English as the "Chorus of the Hebrew Slaves", is a chorus from the third act of the operaNabucco (1842) by Giuseppe Verdi, with a libretto by Temistocle Solera, inspired by Psalm 137. It recollects the story of Jewish exiles in Babylon after the loss of the First Temple in Jerusalem.
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Nov 24, 2015 05:19
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https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psalm_137 Psalm 137 (Greek numbering: Psalm 136) is one of the best known of theBiblical psalms. Its opening lines, "By the rivers of Babylon..." (Septuagint: "By the waters of Babylon...") have been set to music on several occasions. In its whole form, the psalm reflects the yearning for Jerusalem as well as hatred for the Holy City's enemies with sometimes violent imagery.
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Nov 24, 2015 05:23
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Pretty sure those balloons for Mary were a congratulations on her pregnancy. They had words on them if I recall.
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Nov 24, 2015 05:31
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Onomarchus posted:Thanks! I think that works and really helps, on the bird issue. I either didn't catch all that or didn't remember it, particularly the taxidermy, which I can take your word on. I probably could have or should have gotten it eventually if I had rewatched or combed through enough of the episodes, or at least the right parts. I will point out that rewatching and combing through parts of the current and past episodes is something I have totally been doing. Just didn't do it enough or with the right parts here. Anyway, I do think Virgil is so obsessed with birds because of the Jarden bird legend, but that doesn't matter here since I now think Kevin (who almost certainly doesn't know that legend) knows enough about Virgil+birds to imagine that bit up on his own. That bit with Virgil and the birds does seem even more meaningful if you look at it with the afterlife view instead of the dream view, but that's no big deal: there's bound to be tons of stuff in that episode that mean even more or work even better with either the dream view or the afterlife view versus the other. What counts is that either view remains tenable, and I'm optimistic to convinced on that front. In the same episode (the one before this one) we see both some sort of stuffed large rodent and some sort of owl inside Virgil's trailer, which is why I mentioned taxidermy. And yes, there are multiple things that we can take to mean that it was the actual after life. But there are many others that point to just the opposite. For example, holy Wayne and Patti being connected in the afterlife, when their only actual connection is Kevin (and Kevin first seeing him in the exact situation he first saw him in real life - in the toilet). Or little girl Patti showing/discussing the abuse she suffered as a child being told to always shut up, but that abuse coming from Neil and not her father (and we can infer that Laurie told Kevin about Neil, but likely either made no reference to Patti's father or just referred to him as the father, without a name). I.e., things that suggest that this afterlife does not exist independent of Kevin and Kevin's knowledge, and hence are likely the product of his imagination. I don't say this to convince you of that. Just to point that either interpretation is just as plausible.
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Nov 24, 2015 07:20
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DebonaireD posted:So much good stuff in this episode I can't believe I missed these two.
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Nov 24, 2015 14:53
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n3wt posted:He needed to come to terms with his sympathies with the devil that was Patti because on some gut level, he too believes that the world ended: it's been there, eating at him and he's been in denial. I was trying to write a post about the overall "lesson" that Kevin was being imparted with, either by his subconscious or by divine intervention, and this put it way more succinctly than I could. Kevin kept being tested to tell the truth: first it was to dress himself as he truly sees himself, then it was the lie detector. By the time he got to the bridge and had a noose thrown around his neck, he didn't even try deception to get out of the situation, he just flat out said "I'm here to throw this girl into the well." And it's interesting, too, that you point out that where Kevin disagrees with Patti is in the scene with her Senator "body double." First off, she's a politician in this world. Now, last season, Kevin was butting heads with the Mayor of Mapleton because she just refused to acknowledge that the GR was posing a legitimate threat to the community, they're just a bunch of religious crazies using the first amendment to stir up trouble. And, on the ideological surface, she was absolutely right, they were doing nothing "illegal" at the time, they were basically just making people upset. But Kevin can feel the trouble brewing in his community and, while he can acknowledge that she's technically correct, it's just not good enough to ignore reality and be correct on paper. And that's how he views politicians, as good on paper. He can listen to Senator Patti's speech about how we'd be better off if we didn't care for each other, how emotional connections are just baggage in a post-Departure world, and he can agree with her IDEAS. He can recognize that he believes that the world ended and that Humanity may just be running out the clock. But at the end of that discussion, he still has to live in that world, and it's not good enough to be a lovely person and be correct on paper.
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Nov 24, 2015 15:55
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joepinetree posted:In the same episode (the one before this one) we see both some sort of stuffed large rodent and some sort of owl inside Virgil's trailer, which is why I mentioned taxidermy.
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Nov 24, 2015 16:58
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I thought for a moment it was sweet the way the concierge/voodoo witch doctor was being nice to little Patty until I realized oh no that's not nice at all. Guess his dick works in the hotel world. Maybe thats the organ that woman was trying to deliver.
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Nov 24, 2015 18:04
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DebonaireD posted:I thought for a moment it was sweet the way the concierge/voodoo witch doctor was being nice to little Patty until I realized oh no that's not nice at all. Guess his dick works in the hotel world. Maybe thats the organ that woman was trying to deliver. I'd have to disagree, presumably Virgil is no longer a pedophile after conquering his own demon.
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Nov 24, 2015 18:33
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I completely missed that the Mary excepting the balloons was Matt's wife. Other than Patty, Virgil, and Patty's assistant who got stoned last season, where there any other characters we were supposed to recognize?
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Nov 24, 2015 18:41
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Rad Lieutenant posted:I completely missed that the Mary excepting the balloons was Matt's wife. Other than Patty, Virgil, and Patty's assistant who got stoned last season, where there any other characters we were supposed to recognize? The limbo (or whatever it was) had people who's death touched Kevin so the GR stoned lady, Holy Wayne who was shot on the toilet then died in Kevin's arms, Patti who commited suicide and also died in Kevin's arms, Mary who's between life and death in a vegative state and his dad who's doing a vision quest by tripping on drugs. There's also Virgil who had promised to be his guide, Kevin asks him why he's there and he says 'to atone' Neil, the tubby drinking dude who seems to be aware of being in limbo is Patti's ex husband who likes scat. No idea if that's actually him and Kevin remembers him from Mapleton or if he's just a representation of the paternal and spousal abuse Kevin knows Patti went through. As is the case with most Leftover stuff, it's all left ambiguous enough that this could all be just Kevin's subconcious. edit: man on bridge is Bill Camp (credited for 1 episode only), Miracle pillar man is Turk Pipkin n3wt fucked around with this message at 19:33 on Nov 24, 2015 |
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Nov 24, 2015 19:17
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I knew something was up when I had read the name of the episode and when the Intro played right as the episode began but I was in no way prepared for any of what happened next.
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Nov 24, 2015 19:42
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Gonz posted:Probably one of the best episodes of a TV show in 2015. 32MB OF ESRAM posted:This was the craziest goddamn thing I've seen in a long time. Totally perfect. I think that ep killed me. Am I dead? I'm awful thirsty.
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Nov 24, 2015 20:03
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This is it though, right? The show starts going downhill from here?
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Nov 24, 2015 20:05
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I've been thinking that for the whole season, but the show keeps out doing itself, only it outdoes itself in new and unexpected ways.
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Nov 24, 2015 20:07
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AndyElusive posted:This is it though, right? The show starts going downhill from here? I've had this thought after ever episode this season.
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Nov 24, 2015 20:08
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AndyElusive posted:This is it though, right? The show starts going downhill from here? No idea about the show but on other places on the internet, the comment sections are going down in flames. It's a relief that we've somewhat settled on "letting the mystery be" and decided last season that this show isn't LOST 2.0 because hoo boy a lot of people are angry that this episode gave answers/didn't give answers, was a waste of time/wasn't rated high enough, too Lost like/too on the nose, too Lynch-ian/too derivative...
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Nov 24, 2015 20:22
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I just continue to be baffled by the hike in quality. I think if a time traveler had stopped into the season 1 thread to provide the (justified) praise they'd be laughed out of the forums. I wonder how much of that was due to being tied to the pre-existing story from the novel.
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Nov 24, 2015 20:47
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Has anyone rewatched season one? I liked it enough overall and loved a few episodes (the Character specific ones). But is there really a huge upgrade in quality like we're all thinking or was one just like an 8 and this is a 9?
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Nov 24, 2015 20:53
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4 RING SHRIMP posted:Has anyone rewatched season one? I liked it enough overall and loved a few episodes (the Character specific ones). But is there really a huge upgrade in quality like we're all thinking or was one just like an 8 and this is a 9?
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Nov 24, 2015 21:00
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4 RING SHRIMP posted:Has anyone rewatched season one? I liked it enough overall and loved a few episodes (the Character specific ones). But is there really a huge upgrade in quality like we're all thinking or was one just like an 8 and this is a 9? I really only rewatched a handful of episodes when they were marathoning them before the new season began. I remember I was extremely excited for the finale but then was bored until the last 15 minutes, which was some of the best television I had watched last year (so much so that I had blocked out the rest of the episode). I also really liked the Nora focused episode but the ones around it were kinda boring; my wife similarly watched the Matt episode, which was possibly the overall best episode of the first season and loved it. Basically I really like the template they used for a few episodes last season and adopted wholesale for this season. The pacing of the show and storylines are very slow and deliberate, so if you are jumping around to different characters each episode it can feel like nothing is happening some weeks. When you focus in on a single character/storyline you're able to deliver an entire story with a climax, and not have the setup of one storyline in the same episode as the climax of another. Imagine splitting up the Laurie/Tom story from episode three across 2, 3, or even 4 weeks in 15 minute installments. EDIT: I guess what I am trying to say here is that the pacing is considerably better this season, since you aren't getting a "boring" episode of setup in 3-4 different storyline followed by an episode that is a series of climaxes that can be emotionally draining.
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Nov 24, 2015 21:04
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n3wt posted:I don't mind if we never get a definitive answer on whether this quest was an NDE, dream, real spiritual voyage or a bad trip because the point was that Kevin needed to make peace with his sympathies for Patti and accept the fact that he understands her insane beliefs. That's totally what it is--and all it is--under the empiricist/Enlightenment view. However, The Leftovers is arguably about a world where the Enlightenment is being killed by the Departure. Under the religious/supernatural view of the episode, or at least one such view, Patti is a or the antichrist. The psychological stuff, while potent and even still dead-on true, might then be mere distractions from Kevin's anointed mission to defeat her; or maybe it's how he breaks free of a role as her thrall or potential priest. It's also not clear if Virgil in the real world and the other is at any time 100% helping Kevin. He might be 50% helping Kevin (to defeat her then return) and 50% trying to ensure that if Kevin fails he dies so that Patti never returns with him to the normal world. I'm not arguing the supernatural view is right and the psychological/scientific view wrong, just that they both can hold, which is the way I want it to be viewable. The Leftovers is basically a higher-brow answer to the Left Behind franchise, which I know about mostly second-hand. One thing I enjoy about the Leftovers is that as different as it and Left Behind are, the TV Leftovers currently has a valid interpretation that makes it a pretty similar--but better done--story to Left Behind complete with an antichrist. There's still a lot of other angles out there. Like in the "Fleshy Part of the Thigh" episode of the Sopranos, the scientific and supernatural viewpoints agree on some stuff. Like lenses here. The regular science people (Scientific American, the government) think lenses could be a natural phenomenon worth looking into while some supernatural-oriented people (with scientific pretensions) think as a lens Nora is probably the vehicle of the spirit Azrael. (Death of the Enlightenment angle: the Azrael hunters might have started out as normal scientific researchers.) But if Nora is a lens, what does that make the Garveys? Then Kevin and Laurie are most likely lenses, while Tom, Jill, and Garvey dog individually may or may not be lenses. As a lens Kevin would make the ideal vehicle for an even worse spirit than Azrael. n3wt posted:I'm going to miss Patti after her fantastic sassy, ultra dark humour this season, the senator Patti's great monologue & the moments in the well. I will greatly miss dead-Patti as played by Ann Dowd if she's really gone, but there no guarantee she is. I do bet she won't show up for a while, if at all. Maybe in the last scene of the season finale? If someone you knew out in our real world had a serious psychological issue and told you he had beaten it forever with either one drug trip or an NDE from a suicide attempt, would believe him that it would never come back? Still just possibly might could be gone that way, of course, and maybe Patti is now dedicated to running for President of Hell or Hades.
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Nov 24, 2015 21:06
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Guy A. Person posted:I really only rewatched a handful of episodes when they were marathoning them before the new season began. I remember I was extremely excited for the finale but then was bored until the last 15 minutes, which was some of the best television I had watched last year (so much so that I had blocked out the rest of the episode). I also really liked the Nora focused episode but the ones around it were kinda boring; my wife similarly watched the Matt episode, which was possibly the overall best episode of the first season and loved it. Good stuff. I'm really really enjoying this season. I remember before this season started I was kind of hoping they'd drop all the main characters (as much as I enjoy just about all of them) and just make every episode or couple episodes about how the Event effected random people around the world. Like show me what happened in China and India and poo poo, random stories every week or maybe make them last a couple episodes. But what we got this season is totally fine with me
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Nov 24, 2015 21:09
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Onomarchus posted:I will greatly miss dead-Patti as played by Ann Dowd if she's really gone, but there no guarantee she is. I do bet she won't show up for a while, if at all. Maybe in the last scene of the season finale? If someone you knew out in our real world had a serious psychological issue and told you he had beaten it forever with either one drug trip or an NDE from a suicide attempt, would believe him that it would never come back? Still just possibly might could be gone that way, of course, and maybe Patti is now dedicated to running for President of Hell or Hades. I doubt she will come back at all this season, which is fine since there are 2 episodes left and we are building to a climax. If they really want Ann Dowd back but don't want to burden Kevin, they can work her into Laurie flashbacks or have her talking to Liv Tyler's character or something.
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Nov 24, 2015 21:11
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Watched episode 8 last night. What the hell is going on? One thing I noticed was Pattys jeopardy story about getting money together to leave her husband - didn't Erika do the same? She told Nora this during the department of sudden departure interview questions.
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Nov 24, 2015 21:35
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n3wt posted:The limbo (or whatever it was) had people who's death touched Kevin so the GR stoned lady, Holy Wayne who was shot on the toilet then died in Kevin's arms, Patti who commited suicide and also died in Kevin's arms, Mary who's between life and death in a vegative state and his dad who's doing a vision quest by tripping on drugs. I really wish they wouldn't have buried him and had him dig himself out. I can buy it all being a bit "is it/isn't it" until that part which is really REALLY implausible.
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Nov 24, 2015 21:41
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I still can't get over the wonderful use of Chorus of the Hebrew Slaves by Verdi in this episode.
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Nov 24, 2015 21:51
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Gonz posted:Probably one of the best episodes of a TV show in 2015. 
Josh Lyman fucked around with this message at 00:08 on Nov 25, 2015 |
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Nov 25, 2015 00:06
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