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vulturesrow posted:Basically every single thing I learned in SERE about what not to do was taken directly from his evasion and recovery.  Yeah, me too. I also dealt with him in person when I was in high school. He was awfully self-righteous for someone who got famous by completely loving up from start to finish (to include the shootdown itself).
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Nov 25, 2015 08:58
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iyaayas01 posted:So we're giving the VVS what, a week before they're completely broke off their asses?
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Nov 25, 2015 10:35
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Agean90 posted:Hey, at least Putin's now less likely to gently caress with the baltic nations for a bit. The moment that poo poo gets really hot between Turkey and Russia and NATO is hesitant to back them up militarily, the Russians will be yelling "comrades we have done it, we have broken the NATO!". You can bet that the Russians have a "special plan" for us if this is the case. It might not be all-out invasion, but some sort of hybrid warfare we saw in Ukraine. Dark Helmut posted:The Russians don't take a dump without a plan. To be honest, their plan is usually "wreck poo poo" and show that "Russia strong". Putin might be a good tactician, but a good strategist he is not. Bit of worry since he is sitting on the world's second largest nuclear arsenal.
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Nov 25, 2015 12:04
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OhYeah posted:The moment that poo poo gets really hot between Turkey and Russia and NATO is hesitant to back them up militarily, the Russians will be yelling "comrades we have done it, we have broken the NATO!". You can bet that the Russians have a "special plan" for us if this is the case. It might not be all-out invasion, but some sort of hybrid warfare we saw in Ukraine. When you say 'us', are you speaking as someone in a former SSR that is currently a NATO member*? I can't believe an actual shots-fired Russian invasion of a NATO member would fly, but I guess it depends on what people let them get away with. * you're in Estonia, right?
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Nov 25, 2015 14:29
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hogmartin posted:When you say 'us', are you speaking as someone in a former SSR that is currently a NATO member*? I can't believe an actual shots-fired Russian invasion of a NATO member would fly, but I guess it depends on what people let them get away with. Yes. The main problem with getting poo poo stirred up in the Baltics is that most Russians are not really interested in this. As crazy as some of them are, most realize that life here is better than in Russia.
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Nov 25, 2015 15:18
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Dead Reckoning posted:The thing that bugs me is, I can't really get a read on what Russia's intentions are. They clearly feel they need to do something in order to avoid looking weak. I'm hoping they'll be content to do "freedom of Any military conflict benefits Putin domestically, as it plays into the narrative that NATO is hyper-aggressive, and the only thing keeping Russia free is RUSSIAN ARMS. The whole Syrian operation is propaganda, but with the benefit that it is another place to annoy the West and hopefully extract some concessions from them. In a worst case scenario (Turkey clashes with Russia, NATO comes to its defense) Russia then can just do what it really wants to do: annex the Ukraine. Then, it can negotiate a peace, because "Wars start when you like" and I forget how the rest of it goes
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Nov 25, 2015 15:25
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Godholio posted:I understand this reference, and that guy is a tool. Please share. 
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Nov 25, 2015 16:18
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Scott O'Grady I think; got shot down over Bosnia in his F-16 by SAMs and ejected. When he was rescued he nearly got gunned down because he was brandishing a pistol.
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Nov 25, 2015 16:34
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Mortabis posted:Scott O'Grady I think; got shot down over Bosnia in his F-16 by SAMs and ejected. When he was rescued he nearly got gunned down because he was brandishing a pistol. And judging by what people say about him, little of value would have been lost. When Tom loving Clancy writes that "he was relieved of his pistol for his own safety" you done hosed up.
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Nov 25, 2015 16:57
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To add insult to injury, he was rescued by Marines flying Marine Corps developed helos.
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Nov 25, 2015 17:05
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I assume he was an outlier fuckup (I remember seeing interviews and whatnot with him after the incident and he seemed like a huge douche), but are pilots like surgeons in that they are so highly focused and trained in one thing that they tend to be total fuckwits in just about everything else? With the added irony that their attitude is "I can fly a goddamn F-16, I can [do task they assume requires no skill]"?
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Nov 25, 2015 17:22
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Dandywalken posted:That looks like a pretty long range shot. Did the Su-24 not try and evade at all? Was he somehow not alerted that a missile was about to hit him? I am guessing max range or close range with a sidewinder. Sidewinder at max range, the detection equipment made to detect the missile might never have been able to see the plume before it burned out? Maybe there are different secret mods of sidewinder motors with materials/metals mixed in at thiokol to change the IR signature of its engine burn that the equipment couldn't detect it? At close range the detection equipment would give a warning, but if any switches to auto-deploy countermeasures were in the wrong position, and the pilot failed to act quickly or correctly, he would only have like 1 second to react? The way the plane was coming down, it looked like it might have been way up there? If this turns out to be a gun kill from a Russian pilot who was target fixated on his mission I wouldn't be surprised either. Flying along, believing you own the sky, and that there is no reason to be shot at, and *BAM*.  conspiracy alert read no further to avoid my rantingMaybe the rules of engagement were set up purposefully to cause an incident like this? The Turks are not elite fighter pilots https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PpmwjdcGCG0 I don't know what thread, or where it was, it might have even been in IRC and not a thread. But a while back I suggested that only because of their history and proximity, and with consideration to the invasions of Crimea, Ukraine, and Georgia, that a Russian conflict with Turkey was inevitable. I was shot down over the might and strength and NATO and a ton of other reasons. Mainly because I didn't use the phrase "conflict", I used something more definitive like "conquest" or maybe "invasion" since that is what they were doing in these other countries. I think Putin believes that every Ruble he spends building a buffer he won't have to spend later over conflicts in Russia itself. Now this might be seen as irrational, but even if you see Putin as calculating, anyone can be irrational. It all depends on the time and and your perspective. Nuking Japan was seen by the Japanese and many other even today as irrational. See how I avoided the Godwin pitfall? See? 
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Nov 25, 2015 17:52
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joat mon posted:To add insult to injury, he was rescued by Marines flying Marine Corps developed helos. Well at least it wasn't soldiers flying army developed helicopters to rescue a F-15 pilot.
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Nov 25, 2015 17:55
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https://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/usaf-denies-seeking-more-f-16-or-f-15-combat-jets-419473/quote:Asked to categorically confirm or deny any new fighter purchase, a spokesman for the service’s acquisition office says: “At this time the air force has no plans to acquire 72 new F-15s or F-16s, although the air force is always looking at options to be prepared for a dynamic global security environment.” An extremely narrow denial followed by vague buzzing about keeping one's options open. Not that I held this rumor in much credit in the first place anyway, I'm just amused by how categorical this denial isn't.
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Nov 25, 2015 17:56
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^The most definitive statement the USAF has made in the past two years is that Airmen have no expectation of privacy through any communications media to any party and are subject to discipline for any of it (like text messages to friends/family).Blistex posted:Please share. Yeah it's O'Grady, and he was just an insufferable, holier-than-though rear end. Not well liked, and he talked down to everyone, even strangers. Very much a celebrity in his own mind. He got shot down (partially, at least) due to not following the correct procedures, and as mentioned he is literally used as the main example of "what not to do" at the USAF SERE school. His name came up a lot. Why are we assuming AIM-9s were used? That's not likely to be a Turkish pilot's first weapon of choice, they have AMRAAM.
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Nov 25, 2015 18:49
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Is there any equipment that can warn of an incoming IR missile or can they only be detected visually?
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Nov 25, 2015 19:01
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hogmartin posted:Is there any equipment that can warn of an incoming IR missile or can they only be detected visually? IR-guidance is passive, so yo can't detect than your infrared signature is being seen.
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Nov 25, 2015 19:10
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hogmartin posted:Is there any equipment that can warn of an incoming IR missile or can they only be detected visually? Yup. It'll automatically deploy countermeasures too. I think Thales and the Israelis make similar systems.
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Nov 25, 2015 19:15
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Dead Reckoning posted:Yup. It'll automatically deploy countermeasures too. I think Thales and the Israelis make similar systems. How does it actually make the detection? Like Cat Mattress said, it's a passive threat.
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Nov 25, 2015 19:40
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hogmartin posted:How does it actually make the detection? Like Cat Mattress said, it's a passive threat. If it's visual and senses something that has a really large IR signature or something with a IR signature resembling an incoming missile, wouldn't it be really easy to render these detectors ineffective by saturating the environment with lots of IR projections?
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Nov 25, 2015 19:43
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hogmartin posted:How does it actually make the detection? Like Cat Mattress said, it's a passive threat. Suicide Watch posted:If it's visual and senses something that has a really large IR signature or something with a IR signature resembling an incoming missile, wouldn't it be really easy to render these detectors ineffective by saturating the environment with lots of IR projections? Dead Reckoning fucked around with this message at 19:47 on Nov 25, 2015 |
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Nov 25, 2015 19:44
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Suicide Watch posted:If it's visual and senses something that has a really large IR signature or something with a IR signature resembling an incoming missile, wouldn't it be really easy to render these detectors ineffective by saturating the environment with lots of IR projections? It could combine IR detection with a rangefinding laser to identify a detection as a closing contact (there's already a laser in the system) but I'm really just spitballing here which is why I asked. I didn't see anything on the Northrup Grumman page about how it works.
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Nov 25, 2015 19:46
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Suicide Watch posted:If it's visual and senses something that has a really large IR signature or something with a IR signature resembling an incoming missile, wouldn't it be really easy to render these detectors ineffective by saturating the environment with lots of IR projections? Sure, but technical challenges of doing so aside, you're also announcing to the target "HEY IM JAMMING YOUR IR LAUNCH DETECTION IM PROBABLY ABOUT TO LAUNCH SOMETHING AT YOU."
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Nov 25, 2015 19:48
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MrYenko posted:Sure, but technical challenges of doing so aside, you're also announcing to the target "HEY IM JAMMING YOUR IR LAUNCH DETECTION IM PROBABLY ABOUT TO LAUNCH SOMETHING AT YOU." Yes that's true, but in light of recent events, wouldn't it be an effective way to screw with pilots and threaten them without actually firing shots? Or could messing with another nation's combat aircraft's systems & sensor suite from afar be construed as an actual physical attack? Suicide Watch fucked around with this message at 19:55 on Nov 25, 2015 |
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Nov 25, 2015 19:52
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Suicide Watch posted:Yes that's true, but in relation to recent events, wouldn't it be an effective way to screw with pilots and threaten them without actually firing shots? Or could messing with another nation's combat aircraft's systems & sensor suite from afar be construed as an actual physical attack? I hear it works on our own pilots. If you IFF them over and over they get really pissed off at the incessant beeping in their helmets.
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Nov 25, 2015 19:55
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Yeah, spoofing a missile threat moves way past saber rattling and into "grounds for firing in self-defense." Actual ROE may differ or whatever, but if you point a gun at someone's head, they aren't going to check to see if it's loaded.
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Nov 25, 2015 19:57
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O'Grady is funny since his failed attempt as a GOP politician left him to be well hated by many republicans, too.
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Nov 25, 2015 21:58
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Yeah but where could Russia move them where they wouldn't get pasted by Abu TOW?
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Nov 25, 2015 21:59
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Suicide Watch posted:If it's visual and senses something that has a really large IR signature or something with a IR signature resembling an incoming missile, wouldn't it be really easy to render these detectors ineffective by saturating the environment with lots of IR projections? No. I am assuming they use a thermal sensor equal to or greater in accuracy then what I can get as a civilian from FLIR. It's not looking for just heat, but likely it's programmed to be looking at certain temperature ranges. You can then start applying other kinds of filters to it as well like speed. So it's the IR source is moving slowly, you can ignore it. And you can get pretty granular with the civilian options. So making an IR signature that matches an existing missile means getting something that matches the heat output and moves pretty fast. Which would likely be another missile.
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Nov 25, 2015 22:10
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Russian buddy claiming that S-400's are going to be moved into the area. Is this a good thing for ELINT guys? I can only assume so.
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Nov 25, 2015 23:02
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Godholio posted:
Who are you talking about? EDIT: nvm, should finish reading the thread...
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Nov 25, 2015 23:08
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Dandywalken posted:Russian buddy claiming that S-400's are going to be moved into the area. I could only imagine so. Probably gonna have a few drones accidentally get close to some sites.
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Nov 25, 2015 23:35
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Thomamelas posted:No. I am assuming they use a thermal sensor equal to or greater in accuracy then what I can get as a civilian from FLIR. It's not looking for just heat, but likely it's programmed to be looking at certain temperature ranges. You can then start applying other kinds of filters to it as well like speed. So it's the IR source is moving slowly, you can ignore it. And you can get pretty granular with the civilian options. So making an IR signature that matches an existing missile means getting something that matches the heat output and moves pretty fast. Which would likely be another missile. "Moving fast" is not measurable directly. You'd be measuring things like changing intensity, size, location on the sensor. All of those can be faked by a dynamic source like a laser. For example, early radar guidance sensors didn't have a full grid, they spun a linear sensor and measured the change in intensity of the target's reflection as it aligned and moved away. Therefore ECM could fight the sensor by modulating its jamming signal to seem like there's another target at a different location. These kinds of countermeasures involve looking at the system and how it actually works, rather than how it's intended to work. And to assume it's equal or greater in accuracy to civillian sensors isn't accurate, because it's not a FLIR sensor. It's meant to be packed in a box with no maintenance for ten years, temperature cycle through -40 to 140 degrees, and be chucked out into the world on the end of a rocket with no warning and work every time. So they're using a different implementation than your civillian FLIR, and they have a lot of implementation details that end up mattering in these scenarios. I don't know how the implementation works here - if I did I wouldn't be sharing it. But I wouldn't be surprised if there are talented engineers who study the sensors, and the countermeasures, and the counter-counter measures in these scenarios, and could build something if there was a role for it. If you can build a laser that confuses a missile and throws it off course, you can build a laser that confuses a warning detector. Whether you'd use it is another matter.
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Nov 26, 2015 00:03
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What use case, exactly, are you envisioning for this system?
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Nov 26, 2015 00:14
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Dead Reckoning posted:What use case, exactly, are you envisioning for this system?
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Nov 26, 2015 01:01
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Dead Reckoning posted:What use case, exactly, are you envisioning for this system? I'd imagine if you have some anti-IR jamming capability, pointing it at enemy fighters would be an off-label usage to gently caress with people you're not supposed to be shooting at.
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Nov 26, 2015 01:51
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NightGyr posted:I'd imagine if you have some anti-IR jamming capability, pointing it at enemy fighters would be an off-label usage to gently caress with people you're not supposed to be shooting at.
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Nov 26, 2015 02:22
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Dandywalken posted:Russian buddy claiming that S-400's are going to be moved into the area. I am curious to see what happens when a TOW hits an S-400.
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Nov 26, 2015 05:46
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Dead Reckoning posted:What use case, exactly, are you envisioning for this system? Imagine a soldier running up to you and running in circles around you firing blanks. That's the kind of use we're gonna get. Think about it.
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Nov 26, 2015 06:20
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Has anyone seen the full Kunduz report posted yet? I assume it will be redacted in portions, but someone must have FOIA'd it by now.
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Nov 26, 2015 06:21
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