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I don't want three little girls to drown in loving grain because their parents don't think to supervise them around dangerous situations and farm equipment. Bill 6 or get out.
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Nov 26, 2015 16:47
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Coolwhoami posted:Unironically posted by a family member:
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Nov 26, 2015 16:50
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Excelsiortothemax posted:I don't want three little girls to drown in loving grain because their parents don't think to supervise them around dangerous situations and farm equipment. No poo poo. I think a 10-year-old died recently because the forklift he was driving flipped over, too. Every business should have to follow labour and health and safety laws; we put those in place for a reason, dammit!
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Nov 26, 2015 17:05
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Well, Ma, looks like the kids are unionizin'.
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Nov 26, 2015 17:11
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Nine of Eight posted:I find it really weird how the thread went so violently Liberal with people being really bitter as hell against the NDP. I thought we were rational thinkers and immune to thinking of things as our team and their team guys? I washed my hands of the NDP entirely this past election because of their lovely worthless centrist pandering and a lot of people I know iRL did the same. the liberals fuckin suck even more than the NDP but from what i saw there was a lot of ugh-gently caress-yall backlash against mulcair et al from leftists and it was easy for trudeau to capture at least some of that discontent by doing the usual liberal thing of campaigning to the left and then leaving all that poo poo on the podium after the acceptance speech
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Nov 26, 2015 17:11
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Ambrose Burnside posted:I washed my hands of the NDP entirely this past election because of their lovely worthless centrist pandering and a lot of people I know iRL did the same. the liberals fuckin suck even more than the NDP but from what i saw there was a lot of ugh-gently caress-yall backlash against mulcair et al from leftists and it was easy for trudeau to capture at least some of that discontent by doing the usual liberal thing of campaigning to the left and then leaving all that poo poo on the podium after the acceptance speech Then how do you respond to the fact that pharmacare was part of their platform? Does that sound like lovely worthless centrist pandering to you?
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Nov 26, 2015 17:13
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suck a dick Albertan farmers
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Nov 26, 2015 17:14
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Lustful Man Hugs posted:Then how do you respond to the fact that pharmacare was part of their platform? Does that sound like lovely worthless centrist pandering to you? But he said job creator that one time... 
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Nov 26, 2015 17:17
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Looking forward to the CI meltdown. 
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Nov 26, 2015 17:53
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Lustful Man Hugs posted:Then how do you respond to the fact that pharmacare was part of their platform? Does that sound like lovely worthless centrist pandering to you? They offset their good ideas with equally bad ones that made it hard to believe it was anything more than leftist pandering. The big one for me is the fellatio of small business, who are becoming increasingly responsible for the declining state of workers rights and pay in this country.
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Nov 26, 2015 18:08
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jfood posted:We have returned to those days give or take a couple of percentage points, eventhough very serious people with very important ideas are now in charge. vyelkin posted:I would rather vote for a leftist NDP that gets 15% of the vote each election than a Very Serious Moderate NDP that gets 18% of the vote each election, considering the only way the NDP are ever going to actually form government is if there happens to be an election where both the Liberals collapse and the Conservatives are somehow incompetent enough not to pick up the 5-10% of votes they need to take power. And in that scenario it actually does not matter which version of the NDP exists because voters don't give a poo poo anyway. The thing is that right now there's two competing visions of the NDP. One has it as the "conscience of Parliament" that consistently gets about 13% of the vote and earns lots of vocal approval from folks who, when it comes down to it, vote Liberal to keep out the conservatives. The other vision is of a party that can earn 30% or more of the vote by appealing to moderate and mainstream Canadians. We could debate which vision would better serve the Revolutionary Cause, but my point is that the people who actually have a material stake in the NDP as a political generally hold the second position. As long as that's true, we might as well be debating whether Wal-Mart should start paying its workers a living wage. Sedge and Bee posted:I don't understand how someone could view the results of the last election and thinking moderation and herding towards the center is what is required. A moderate, centrist party won the election, in case you haven't noticed, and contrary to what some people here seem to think they didn't run a very left-wing campaign. It takes an incredible degree of naivete for anyone to look at the last election and go "Yeah, the Canadian voters were yearning for a strong leftwing alternative to the status quo." They were yearning to get rid of Harper, not for grand new social programs and smashing capitalism. The NDP did make mistakes during the campaign but failing to promise voters enough free ponies and vaguely-worded "change" is not one of them. BTW, the NDP did promise "change" a great deal in their flyers and ads. I think their slogan was "it's time for change in Ottawa" or something like that. It was horribly vague and generic, which is probably why everyone thinks Justin Trudeau invented the idea of running on "change."
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Nov 26, 2015 18:26
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So what do you feel was the leftward shift that cost the NDP their lead? What moderations in policy could they have introduced that would have prevented their drop in the polls? Would more rhetoric focusing on economic orthodoxy and job creators have saved them? What does a moderate, or more moderate, NDP look like compared to now? And why would it win or do better compared to Team Mulcair this time around? E: besides my point wasn't about leftist policy, but about voter engagement. I don't think policy changes of any kind could have saved the NDP. Comatose Tom was a bigger detriment than anything else. People who were disengaged with the political process came out in droves this time around. The idea that you can read the unified will of the Canadian electorate is a stupid narrative to tell yourself, better to ask why so many individuals who ignored politics before chose not to this time. It wasn't all hatred of Harper. Beelzebufo fucked around with this message at 18:46 on Nov 26, 2015 |
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Nov 26, 2015 18:34
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I have serious doubts that turning the NDP into a carbon copy of the Liberals will result in this magical resurgence and growth. If anything it would make the NDP even more irrelevant than they were as the "conscience of government" as the Libs have that political spectrum on lockdown. e: It also makes them look no different than the Cons in terms of leaving behind your party ideals and say or do anything just for power.
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Nov 26, 2015 18:58
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Furnaceface posted:I have serious doubts that turning the NDP into a carbon copy of the Liberals will result in this magical resurgence and growth
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Nov 26, 2015 19:06
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Guy DeBorgore posted:The thing is that right now there's two competing visions of the NDP. One has it as the "conscience of Parliament" that consistently gets about 13% of the vote and earns lots of vocal approval from folks who, when it comes down to it, vote Liberal to keep out the conservatives. The other vision is of a party that can earn 30% or more of the vote by appealing to moderate and mainstream Canadians. Wasn't this second vision of the NDP demonstrably a horrible failure just over a month ago though? The party tried to appeal to moderate and mainstream Canadians by focusing their rhetoric on stability, political experience, and the moderate planks of their platform, and the result was that they got demolished by the Liberals thanks to, I would argue, two movements in the electorate: first, the "If I'm going to vote for a moderate party then I might as well vote for the Liberals" movement, and second, the "I want to vote for change so why would I vote for the guys promising not to rock the boat?" movement. The NDP as the "conscience of Parliament" gave us medicare and a lot of other social programs. The NDP as a party that can earn 30% of the vote just failed to earn 30% of the vote and gave Justin Trudeau a majority. I get that that is the dominant idea of the party among people who depend on it to put food on the table, but I don't see why any of us outside Ottawa should care about that. The NDP shouldn't be a party by, of, and for NDP staffers on the Hill, it should be a party for the Canadian working and lower classes, and frankly if the party is going to abandon trying to effect positive change for those groups in order to keep its staffers in a job then why the gently caress should this party even exist?
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Nov 26, 2015 19:08
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It's not like it did a good job of keeping staffer jobs either.
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Nov 26, 2015 19:12
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Sedge and Bee posted:It's not like it did a good job of keeping staffer jobs either. I don't think any party exists to employ their staffers, or at least I would hope so.
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Nov 26, 2015 19:13
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Cultural Imperial posted:I keep telling you dumb asses that rural culture is garbage. gently caress the family ranch Getting your kid to stamp down a grain elevator at the business that supports you financially: A-Okay Getting your kid to put stamps on envelopes at the business that supports you financially: Nope
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Nov 26, 2015 19:14
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Hey. I figured I'd post this here. I'm involved in the production of a student documentary about the Ottawa Carleton Detention Centre and conditions there. We're screening it tonight at 7pm. There'll also be a discussion about jail conditions etc. If anyone is interested it's open to the public, cost is 7$. PM me for details. e: it's at Carleton U in Ottawa Jordan7hm fucked around with this message at 19:18 on Nov 26, 2015 |
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Nov 26, 2015 19:16
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vyelkin posted:The NDP shouldn't be a party by, of, and for NDP staffers on the Hill, it should be a party for the Canadian working and lower classes, and frankly if the party is going to abandon trying to effect positive change for those groups in order to keep its staffers in a job then why the gently caress should this party even exist? The Liberals won the election the minute they began running ads with a young man promising to tax the rich, basically making the Safe Moderate NDP totally loving irrelevant to anyone who wasn't already solidly in the "middle class" Moderate Mainstream Canadians are still pretty lovely people and repeated attempts to appeal to their twisted sensibilities will only end in tears, the NDP's current leadership needs to be routed and permanently marginalized by any means necessary if the party is to have any relevance in the future
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Nov 26, 2015 19:19
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Jordan7hm posted:Hey. I figured I'd post this here. I'm involved in the production of a student documentary about the Ottawa Carleton Detention Centre and conditions there. We're screening it tonight at 7pm. There'll also be a discussion about jail conditions etc. If anyone is interested it's open to the public, cost is 7$. PM me for details. I'm interested but not transfer to the 14 while it's raining and I should be studying interested. Gonna guess the gist of it is "Holiday Innes is overcrowded and terrible and everyone who's ever taken someone there to be put into custody should feel really awful about it"? All jails are bad but that one... jeepers.
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Nov 26, 2015 19:24
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Coolwhoami posted:Bill 6 extends workers compensation coverage, occupation health and safety rules and labour laws to all Alberta farms, regardless of size and regardless of whether or not the work being done on the farm is paid or unpaid. Bill 6 also allows farm workers to unionize. Oh wow what a nightmare situation. gently caress this attitude. If your business is not viable if you are forced to pay workers a fair living wage or abide by loving health and safety regs, YOU SHOULD NOT BE IN THAT BUSINESS. "Hurrr yeah my profit margins are so thin that if I need to put measures in place to ensure my workers (who may or may not be my own family members) don't get killed or maimed, I'll be ruined!" The Butcher fucked around with this message at 19:28 on Nov 26, 2015 |
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Nov 26, 2015 19:25
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Hopefully, the changes to Canada's electoral system expected during the next term will fundamentally change the political calculus required to determine how to position a party - and how to vote - during a general election. It would be for the best, I think, if political parties were able to reflect their actual ideologies without needing to put on a sanitized front because it looks like it'll play well in a swing riding. It remains to be seen whether the LPC will put in a replacement to FPTP that is more representative, or attempt to shocks thorough some sort of preferential ballot that will always favour the centremost party. I know, I know, "liberals gonna lib", but a new voting system would be the most significant event in Canadian democracy since the repatriation of the Constitution.
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Nov 26, 2015 19:29
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Jordan7hm posted:Hey. I figured I'd post this here. I'm involved in the production of a student documentary about the Ottawa Carleton Detention Centre and conditions there. We're screening it tonight at 7pm. There'll also be a discussion about jail conditions etc. If anyone is interested it's open to the public, cost is 7$. PM me for details. If I wasn't working tonight I'd come check out, hope it goes well for you tonight.
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Nov 26, 2015 19:29
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flakeloaf posted:I'm interested but not transfer to the 14 while it's raining and I should be studying interested. I think you mean 7, 4, or O-train. 14 doesn't go to Carleton...
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Nov 26, 2015 19:30
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Yeah, that's the 4. ARITHMETIC IS HARD OKAY
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Nov 26, 2015 19:36
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Apologies folks, this is gonna be a long post. I necessarily brush over some details here so if anyone is feeling particularly masochistic and wants more walls of text they're free to ask me to elaborate on the points I make here. Guy DeBorgore posted:I know most people itt don't find NDP insider chat interesting but I'm gonna push on through: A general comment before I go into the specifics; the level at which you're framing this argument is meaningless. You make a lot of vague allusions to "seriousness" or being a "maturity" but you never actually explain, in any detail, what this means other than trying to protect the careers of the few hundred core NDP staffers (and ironically the centrist NDP wasn't actually able to deliver on that objective). You also imply, without any explanation, that the strategy which just took the party from first to last in the polls, is somehow a formula to win government while dismissing the more radical party of the past which actually played a substantial role in the development of medicare and various other programs. The only real comment you make on policy is to dismiss, without any explanation, the idea of free tuition. The NDP has a pretty good track record as an opposition party. In Ontario their time in opposition helped push Bill Davis in a much more progressive direction. Their role in Parliament during the Pearson years hardly needs to be brought up. I want to see you respond to that and explain why you're so dismissive of those accomplishments. How about we reorient this discussion by focusing on policy instead of typing up a big word salad filled with cargo cult sounding invocations of "seriousness"? I'm a lot more interested in your opposition to free tuition and other such policies than I am in your vague references to being "serious". Explain why those policies are bad ideas from either an electioneering standpoint or a technocratic standpoint, or both. Anyway, to reply to what you actually wrote: quote:So you want a return to the days where the NDP was a permanent 3rd party getting 10-15% of the vote every election? Ok, first of all, given that the NDP just followed your strategy and proceeded to lose their best shot in history at forming government, perhaps a bit of humility on your part is called for. Your claims that a more openly leftwing NDP would only gain 15% of the vote is pure speculation: what isn't speculation is that Mulcair managed to lose the last election quite badly. The NDP also did very poorly in Ontario and BC when it tried to be a "serious" party in the way that you advocate, and Olivia Chow's mayoral bid crashed transformed a commanding lead into an embarrassing defeat after she tried to present herself as a socially conscious fiscal moderate focused on saving taxpayer money. I suppose that one could craft a narrative in which each of these races was lost due to local factors. Chow was a bad candidate, Dix ran a poor campaign, Horwath's team turned out to be incompetent, etc. But to me the pattern is pretty clear: outside the flukey 2011 election (in which I'd argue Ignatieff deserves at least as much credit as Layton for the "Orange Crush") the NDP's "serious" strategy hasn't actually delivered power. Meanwhile Rachel Notley, while not exactly a firebreathing radical, at least ran on a platform of personal and corporate income tax increases, higher public spending, and a major minimum wage increase. She won decisively. Perhaps you'll reply that Notley got lucky and really it was the Progressive Conservatives defeating themselves shortly after the Wild Rose exploded. To which I'd say, so what? At most that proves that the NDP's actual campaign and platform matters a lot less than we want to think. So if the NDP can only really win on a fluke then we might as well have a decent left wing platform for when that fluke occurs. Second of all, I think your comments here betray a profound lack of historical awareness. I mean this in two ways. First, you seem to completely ignore the extent to which the success of the NDP under Jack Layton was a direct reflection of the decline of the Liberal party. Layton's attempts to maneuver the NDP into being a credible alternative to the Liberals only made sense in the context of a declining Liberal party opening up space for a new centrist party. Now that the Liberals have rebounded you'll need to supply a convincing explanation for why it makes sense to continue running as Liberal-Lite. Why exactly would the mass of voters in Ontario choose the faux-Liberal party instead of the actual Liberal party? However, there's also a second way in which I believe that you misread the historical moment. What your post makes me think of, more than anything else, is Francis Fukuyama declaring the "end of history". It's as though the political dynamics that have dominated the Canadian political scene in the last decade or two are some kind of ever present and changeless reality that all "mature" political parties must accommodate themselves to. Look back over the last hundred years of history and you'll find that every twenty or thirty years the political scene in Canada has been dramatically transformed. In the 1930s the federal government basically refused to take substantive action to deal with the Great Depression -- after World War II the political calculus had changed so much that the same political party that had been in power for most of the 1930s was suddenly constructing an expansive welfare state. That state building exercise continued into the 1980s before being dramatically reversed and replaced by yet another set of political assumptions. Anyone claiming to know what the next political-economic paradigm is going to look like is a hack. But the one safe bet, I think, is that the future will open up new political possibilities that are impossible to anticipate in advance. The relevant cliche here would be that we want to "fight the next war, not the last one". Ask the French government in 1940 how well it works out when you assume that the way things were in the recent past is the way they're going to be forever. Since the 2008 financial crisis we've seen more and more signs that the global environment is changing and that this is having impacts on domestic politics. I'm going to save myself some time by quoting from a column in the Tyee that I think phrased this well: The Tyee, posted:Almost invariably, there is nobody less politically minded than somebody who gushes, "I'm a total political junkie!" Of course people who spend too much time "thinking historically", i.e. academics, have their own failings when it comes to practical politics. Certainly there needs to be a mixture of historical thinkers and hard knuckled political brawlers in any successful party. But the problem with the NDP right now is that anyone with any historical vision whatsoever has been frozen out of the party apparatus and the people running things are convinced they've got it all figured out despite a growing mountain of evidence to the contrary. Guy DeBorgore posted:I sympathize, but as someone who worked alongside NDP staffers and is still friends with a few of them, I just can't agree with you. The jobs of those staffers and their MPs depend on winning elections. Now that the party's tasted victory, there's a strong culture of people whose careers depend on finding another victory. And that's not a bad thing, that's just part of being a mature political party that's capable of winning an election. It's a bad thing because these people can't actually win. They're convinced that their losing strategy is a brilliant path to victory despite a lack of actual results. I'm not even going to really address the idea that the interests of a couple hundred staffers should dominate the policy agenda of a supposedly national party. I mean... Jesus Christ dude, did that actually sound convincing when you typed it out? quote:Having a party full of part-timers, activists and grizzled union vets is all well and dandy, but if you actually form government you're gonna need a fleet of high-energy policy wonks who care more about getting poo poo done than about staying ideologically pure. In Greece we saw what happens when a left-wing protest party accidentally wins an election. I was incredibly excited about Syriza's victory because I thought they were going to revolutionize the way politics were done. Instead, they just made a bunch of amateur mistakes and squandered their opportunity. You're going to have to explain this one to me. Are you suggesting that Syriza's difficulties are related to them somehow not having more professional political staffers? Can you actually provide some evidence for that assertion? And how does your analysis deal with the actual political and economic position of Greece vis-a-vis its creditors and the Troika? Also, you are aware that Syriza actually won re-election, right? Which seems to be the main standard you have for evaluating a "serious" political party. Personally I'm also very disappointing in Syriza but your analysis of their failures doesn't seem to line up very well with the facts on the ground. quote:It's not like there's a dearth of leftist organizations promoting all kinds of radical policies. IMO the NDP doesn't need to be another one of those- it should be a serious political party whose job is to win elections and potentially form a government some day. If that means we get a less-corrupt, slightly-more-progressive version of the Liberals, then great! That still sounds better than the status quo to me. The NDP, with it's resources and it's historical association with the left, could play an extremely helpful role as a big tent for the groups you allude to. The party currently views what should be it's greatest strengths as a liability. quote:On the other hand, if there's going to be a society-wide leftist revolution that fundamentally transforms the way politics works in Canada, that's great too! But that shouldn't be the NDP's goal. There's a lot of really smart, driven people working insanely long hours for the NDP, people who frankly do more to advance leftist politics in a single election than a hundred grumpy old Marxists, and those people have staked their careers on the NDP being a professional, serious political party. I don't even know how to respond to such a vague statement. Can you be specific? Give examples? The only concrete success of the centrist NDP that you've listed is keeping a bunch of staffers employed. quote:It's neither fair nor realistic to expect those people to consign themselves to life on the political sidelines. They'll just hold their noses and jump ship to the Liberals instead. Wait, what? Who will "just vote Liberals" instead? Am I understanding you correctly? Are you really saying that those ahrd working staffers who have staked their careers on the NDP are going to vote Liberal? Not only does this make no sense, but even if it's true why do I care? You're describing an insignificant portion of the electorate here unless I'm hugely misunderstanding you. Finally, there's a pretty massive irony here. Right after the centrist NDP ran a campaign which caused over a million NDP voters to switch to the Liberals you're claiming that we cannot change strategies because it might... cause NDP loyalists to switch to the Liberals? It's kind of weird that you offer no explanation or analysis of what went wrong with the NDP campaign. Because from my perspective every dire consequence that you predict is something that has already loving happened. quote:PS: Free tuition and any variant on it is awful policy, even when Barack Obama was doing it. Why?
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Nov 26, 2015 20:05
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flakeloaf posted:Gonna guess the gist of it is "Holiday Innes is overcrowded and terrible and everyone who's ever taken someone there to be put into custody should feel really awful about it"? All jails are bad but that one... jeepers. Basically yeah. Provincial jails are terrible, this one is particularly bad. I did a speech about it today where my biggest problem was figuring out what bad stuff to focus on. The girl giving birth on the jail floor after her cries for help were ignored, the ombudsmen saying it exemplified everything wrong in a correctional facility, or the fact it's one of the most violent jails in the province... I focused on the overcrowding but man tough choice. I'll post the doc when we have it up on YouTube. It's not perfect by any means but I think it gets the point across.
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Nov 26, 2015 20:09
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Coolwhoami posted:Unironically posted by a family member: Making all employers responsible for making their workplaces safe for workers??? Making sure people get fair compensation when they lose their jobs? TYRANNY!!!!!!!! The Wild Rose party is some crazy libertarian party isn't it?
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Nov 26, 2015 20:21
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The Butcher posted:Oh wow what a nightmare situation. Stop disrespecting the family ranch
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Nov 26, 2015 20:25
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Helsing posted:Apologies folks, this is gonna be a long post. I necessarily brush over some details here so if anyone is feeling particularly masochistic and wants more walls of text they're free to ask me to elaborate on the points I make here. I've said this before, but you really need a blog, dude. More importantly, Canada needs more people talking like this and less Eric Grenier. Fantastic post.
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Nov 26, 2015 20:30
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twistedmentat posted:Making all employers responsible for making their workplaces safe for workers??? Making sure people get fair compensation when they lose their jobs? TYRANNY!!!!!!!! Pretty much. It was a response to the PCs not being conservative enough (or, more accurately, because people wanted a conservative option that wasn't corrupt as all gently caress). After Prentice convinced former leader Danielle Smith to cross the floor, along with what remained of the "reasonable" people in the party, it's pretty much down to its core of dangerously insane people. Despite that, it's still Alberta's official opposition because the PCs really are that loving useless and stupid. Let that sink in for a moment...
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Nov 26, 2015 20:31
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Helsing posted:
I think this is the most emotionally charged post I have read by you here.
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Nov 26, 2015 20:38
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My posts are filled with typos like that, but I think it's more a reflection of my dyslexia than my passion. I promise my monitor isn't currently covered in spittle.
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Nov 26, 2015 20:42
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Franks Happy Place posted:I've said this before, but you really need a blog, dude. More importantly, Canada needs more people talking like this and less Eric Grenier. You're too kind. That having been said I am trying to think of a way for us to get in touch that doesn't involve me posting my work e-mail in an open thread.
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Nov 26, 2015 20:43
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Helsing posted:You're too kind. http://10minutemail.com/10MinuteMail/index.html
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Nov 26, 2015 20:44
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Who can I vote for that is like Helsing? Nobody? gently caress.
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Nov 26, 2015 20:49
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Helsing posted:You're too kind. Some elaborate riddles perhaps? Seriously though, I would like to echo the sentiment that your analysis is top notch, especially with the post election NDP.
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Nov 26, 2015 20:57
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Legit Businessman fucked around with this message at 16:33 on Sep 9, 2022 |
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Nov 26, 2015 20:57
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bunnyofdoom posted:Email us. Yes, we do send them out. Can we get a signed photo of sexy stripping Trudeau?
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