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Count Chocula posted:But the Omega Man was Charlton Heston, who was an Alpha Male. I'm confused. What's early 60s Vincent Price? Because I'm more like that.
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Nov 26, 2015 23:47
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Merdifex posted:No wonder all that heritability remains missing in their entirety, considering that none of the GWAS or GCTA findings have thus far been meaningfully replicated. I'd say the smart money is still on a degree of true (genetic) heritability of much of cognition and personality that exceeds contemporary intuitions, but the smart money is also on being very careful with this because obviously, nobody knows poo poo.
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Nov 26, 2015 23:48
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Woolie Wool posted:What the gently caress is this nonsense? Why can't he name things by their purpose? Why would you have something stupid like "spleen" instead of something self-explanatory like "mkdir"? I think it's just Moldbug's usual obscurantism. You can't prove that his ideas are fundamentally wrong without wading through more bullshit than any sane person would.
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Nov 27, 2015 00:01
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Cingulate posted:I'd say the smart money is still on a degree of true (genetic) heritability of much of cognition and personality that exceeds contemporary intuitions
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Nov 27, 2015 00:18
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Because attempts to show the malleability of cognitive and personality traits have failed about as hard as attempts to provide the biological basis for their heritability. So what you're left with is large h^2s all around, and while we don't really know what they mean and really, for now, everything is still up for grabs, these h^2s have simply proved a lot more resilient than pre-schooling programs or interventions or such stuff.
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Nov 27, 2015 00:38
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SatansOnion posted:And when the "trait" at issue is "being a really good President", you're getting deep into "perfect frictionless spherical The argument is a joke from a post full of jokes. The rest of them are about the kabbalistic implications of Ben Carson's neurosurgery or whether humans should rationally precommit to ignore everything Cruz says because he won a debating competition. I mean it may well reveal errors in his understanding of statistics but let's not slip into mock thread failstate #1 here.
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Nov 27, 2015 02:04
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Cingulate posted:Because attempts to show the malleability of cognitive and personality traits have failed about as hard as attempts to provide the biological basis for their heritability. So what you're left with is large h^2s all around, and while we don't really know what they mean and really, for now, everything is still up for grabs, these h^2s have simply proved a lot more resilient than pre-schooling programs or interventions or such stuff. My understanding is preschooling programs and nutritional interventions have had huge results and the main reasons they haven't been more widely deployed is that they'd be spending tax dollars on black children. Where are you getting this from? I mean, on a pragmatic basis we can say there is apparently some heritability of traits and I wouldn't say that that's false, but you seem to be asserting that it's probably even stronger than what people intuitively expect, which is already substantial.
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Nov 27, 2015 02:24
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Nessus posted:What? Cingulate is strangely obsessed with the idea that some consistent, objective measure of intelligence is entirely genetic
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Nov 27, 2015 03:35
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Improbable Lobster posted:Cingulate is strangely obsessed with the idea that some consistent, objective measure of intelligence is entirely genetic
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Nov 27, 2015 03:40
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Annointed posted:Jokes on you I'm omega. or was that the entire joke and I just missed the sarcasm? Parallel Paraplegic posted:It's the kind of name a villain in a lovely western fantasy RPG from the 90's would have so I always assumed he got it from one of those.
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Nov 27, 2015 05:34
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I'm a Mu-man
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Nov 27, 2015 07:36
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quote:The beautiful poetry of Mein Kampf Said no one who has ever actually read the loving thing.
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Nov 27, 2015 08:05
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Ahmed planned his own arrest to make the police afraid of arresting people by making them afraid of institutional racism(?) Or in other words, this guy's a loving moron.
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Nov 27, 2015 08:10
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Qwertycoatl posted:I think it's just Moldbug's usual obscurantism. You can't prove that his ideas are fundamentally wrong without wading through more bullshit than any sane person would. Also if he can reinvent the world with all his own terminology which means very subtly different things to the established terminology, it will get people to buy into his philosophy as a side effect of using his poo poo. I'm pretty sure I've read that as an explicit rationale for all the stupid naming in his stuff. It's like he's stuck in the 1960s, when a lot of that sort of thing were being experimented with. (Eg languages like APL, SNOBOL, Lisp M-Exprs, and so on.)
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Nov 27, 2015 09:32
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Improbable Lobster posted:Cingulate is strangely obsessed with the idea that some consistent, objective measure of intelligence is entirely genetic Nessus posted:What? Nutritional interventions to catch a decrease in one's intelligence potential certainly matter a lot. In Africa, where people are actually nutritionally deficient. But show me something that works in the 1st world. Like, do - I'd find it really cool. I keep looking, but I've never seen something that replicates. I'm not where I'm at because I'd hate for the floor to raise. I'd love to live in a society where everyone can be everything, where everybody is very intelligent (I think Scott actually does, too; Moldbug probably assumes a society split between inferior servants and the elite is better than one where everyone is elite compared to ours). I just think the evidence is pointing towards that being false. And I think we're losing a few decent people to stuff like the Dork Enlightenment to a dumb part of our ideology by misinterpreting, or just ignore, the scientific state of the art insofar as it seemingly disagrees with our egalitarian ideals.
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Nov 27, 2015 11:05
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eschaton posted:Also if he can reinvent the world with all his own terminology which means very subtly different things to the established terminology, it will get people to buy into his philosophy as a side effect of using his poo poo.
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Nov 27, 2015 11:06
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John Big Booty posted:Said no one who has ever actually read the loving thing. I'm pretty sure that's  , yes. It's a slam on the Bible. So kinda dickish and ignorant, but not in that way.
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Nov 27, 2015 11:52
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Cingulate posted:That is, besides for being nonsense, not what I'm strangely obsessed with. Could have fooled me considering yhat you mention it on every page and constantly seem like you're only a few posts away from saying that women and blacks are just genetically dumber
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Nov 27, 2015 13:40
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Improbable Lobster posted:Could have fooled me considering yhat you mention it on every page and constantly seem like you're only a few posts away from saying that women and blacks are just genetically dumber Darth Walrus posted:I'm pretty sure that's Dianetics works better to build a religion on than Mein Kampf for the same reasons. LessWrong seemingly has better religious-cult potentials than Mein Kampf, actually!
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Nov 27, 2015 14:13
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Merdifex posted:Ahmed planned his own arrest to make the police afraid of arresting people by making them afraid of institutional racism(?) Or in other words, this guy's a loving moron. But Merdifex, Rotherham proved it is never okay to accuse anyone of institutional racism ever!
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Nov 27, 2015 14:16
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Cingulate posted:Why do you think I consider it probable women are genetically dumber? Nice
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Nov 27, 2015 14:23
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I like that both Dawkins and the guy above have gone into "from hell's heart I stab at thee" mode over a literal child. It kind of goes to show the absurdity of racism.
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Nov 27, 2015 14:28
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The Vosgian Beast posted:I like that both Dawkins and the guy above have gone into "from hell's heart I stab at thee" mode over a literal child. ?
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Nov 27, 2015 14:35
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Improbable Lobster posted:Could have fooled me considering yhat you mention it on every page and constantly seem like you're only a few posts away from saying that women and blacks are just genetically dumber Cingulate posted:Why do you think I consider it probable women are genetically dumber? Going to assume you were phrasing that loosely rather than deliberately omitting.
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Nov 27, 2015 14:45
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darkwasthenight posted:Going to assume you were phrasing that loosely rather than deliberately omitting.
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Nov 27, 2015 14:54
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Cingulate posted:It seems here, it would have been much more helpful for for that cause to go the one-of-the-good-ones route - like, Dawkins could have said how much he prefers an Ahmed who wants to be an engineer to a Charles Douglas jr. who doesn't believe in evolution to regain some anti-racist cred he's been hell-bent to shed recently. The kid was catapulted into national news because his municipal institutions decided to flip the gently caress out on him. If you (Dawkins, et al) call someone in that position "one of the good ones", then you would be indirectly calling into question the justice of targeting other people in similar positions. "One of the good ones" is reserved for people who have no negative contact with the authorities (among other requirements). That is, to some extent, the entire point.
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Nov 27, 2015 15:29
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Qwertycoatl posted:You can't prove that his ideas are fundamentally wrong without wading through more bullshit than any sane person would. Isn't that the LessWrong mission statement? Like literally their FAQ opens with something like "Unless you've read all of these Yudkowsky books and papers you cannot comprehend or debate his ideas (not a cult)." Cingulate posted:And I think we're losing a few decent people to stuff like the Dork Enlightenment to a dumb part of our ideology by misinterpreting, or just ignore, the scientific state of the art insofar as it seemingly disagrees with our egalitarian ideals. I don't. A couple of intelligent people maybe, those are a dime a dozen. But decent people? No.
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Nov 27, 2015 20:39
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Cingulate posted:Nutritional interventions to catch a decrease in one's intelligence potential certainly matter a lot. In Africa, where people are actually nutritionally deficient. But show me something that works in the 1st world. Also, if you seriously think there aren't a ton of nutritionally deficient small children in America at least (I dunno if you're in America, it is likely less severe elsewhere) then boy do I have news for you, buddy! I would say probably the best specific example of a heavy intervention I have see is the abecedarian project in North Carolina, though this was criticized for merely increasing their tested IQs by 4-5 points, as opposed to a statistical uptick in a bunch of other general life-quality indicators. Now was it a magical miracle tour? It was not. The figures were something like 'at age 30, 74% of the experimental group had held steady work in the last two years, vs. 53% in the control group; 23% were college grads, vs. 4% in the control group' etc. But these are, I would say, meaningful changes - if your goal is to address the issues directly. Syd Midnight posted:Isn't that the LessWrong mission statement? Like literally their FAQ opens with something like "Unless you've read all of these Yudkowsky books and papers you cannot comprehend or debate his ideas (not a cult)." Nessus has a new favorite as of 21:12 on Nov 27, 2015 |
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Nov 27, 2015 21:03
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Cingulate posted:That is, besides for being nonsense, not what I'm strangely obsessed with. You should read some things about America sometime. We have this thing called institutionalized racism that has accomplished amazing things in areas like education policy and law. Things most other westerners quite frankly cannot imagine. This is probably part of why many of us accuse you of being such a prick, actually.
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Nov 27, 2015 21:19
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Jack Gladney posted:You should read some things about America sometime. We have this thing called institutionalized racism that has accomplished amazing things in areas like education policy and law. Things most other westerners quite frankly cannot imagine. This is probably part of why many of us accuse you of being such a prick, actually.
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Nov 27, 2015 21:36
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Nessus posted:Yeah, many of us perceive arguments over the heritability of general intelligence to be very strongly correlated with "why blacks are just INFERIOR, so we need to cut welfare." I think that's the main issue, because I haven't really seen Cingulate argue anything of the sort, just put forth ideas that seem to hit as false positives because they're so tangled up in racism over here that only racists would bother pursuing them. His statements don't seem terribly unreasonable to me, though I'm not really sure there's enough substantial data around for anyone to make any real conclusions beyond "more info needed."
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Nov 28, 2015 01:28
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Jack Gladney posted:You should read some things about America sometime. We have this thing called institutionalized racism that has accomplished amazing things in areas like education policy and law. Things most other westerners quite frankly cannot imagine. This is probably part of why many of us accuse you of being such a prick, actually. Lol if you think institutionalized racism isn't rampant in every country in Europe.
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Nov 28, 2015 03:20
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Pope Guilty posted:Lol if you think institutionalized racism isn't rampant in every country in Europe. Basically, what Moldbug says, but the opposite. Puppy Time posted:I think that's the main issue, because I haven't really seen Cingulate argue anything of the sort, just put forth ideas that seem to hit as false positives because they're so tangled up in racism over here that only racists would bother pursuing them. I'm clearly saying "the research on how much black American's average deficits on IQ tests reflects genetically lower intelligence is for now an open issue".* People treat this as if I had said "because blacks are genetically dumb, their underprivileged status is deserved and should be accepted, end affirmative action and give every white guy a semi automatic, also women are stupid".** I think a mechanism leading people from the first to the second is bad. * If asked, I'd add: I also consider this question not all that important, because e.g. affirmative action and equal treatment before the law/demilitarization of the US police forces and ending the racist prison industry system and so on should be justified by a simple appeal to the obvious fact that black people are people, and all people are equal. I'm also pro immigration etc. If you've somehow come to the conclusion I'd be denying the existence and impact of racism against black people in the US, that is you being superficial, not me being unclear. If this is still confusing to you, feel free to ask questions such as "do you think black people in the US suffer from institutionalized racism that has a negative impact of unknown, but likely non-marginal magnitude?" ** The evidence, for what I can tell, is fairly clear that women are about as smart as men, with the remaining possible difference so marginal it could go either way. This is, based on the subset of the science I'm aware of, not an issue that's still open - it's fairly conclusive research. There's "means are near-equal, but men have higher variance!!" as the last bastion of the right, but that's a very unstable finding. Nessus posted:Before I go trawling I want to know what you mean by "something that replicates."
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Nov 28, 2015 04:04
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Sorry for not posting my favourite Enlightened Dork. My recommendation this week is, again, Sam Harris' podcast. Have you ever heard Steve Carell's "joyless laughter"? In this week's episode, Harris demonstrates his take on the topic. Hear him use the medium of laughter to perfectly demonstrate the state of absolute anhedonia, as he, for lack of a better word, laughs at Douglas Murray insult trans people. Laughter, here, is not a sign of joy, but a sign of observing an insult or injury to a perceived enemy. It's almost art, really.
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Nov 28, 2015 04:10
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Cingulate posted:Something that has been shown to have similar sustained positive impact in multiple (say, three) independent studies. Maybe something that has been tested roughly equivalently to what'd be required for FDA approval. Mind you, that's not too much - a bunch of psychiatric drugs got FDA approval and later turned out to not be very good. As for the statements that "black people are people, and all people are equal," I think you are severely underestimating how much a lot of folks are willing to actually live by those particular assertions. I agree with them of course, though I am sure I probably have unexamined assumptions somewhere in the ol' mental closet that operate from different premises. But based upon historical evidence in America, we are perhaps moving towards the former - gradually - and the latter seems to be under about the same degree of contention as it was back in the day. I'm sure you can find a half dozen people who will write some breathless screed about how all people aren't equal, and that's great, because excellence, and if we were all equal it'd be like Harrison Bergeron, etc. etc. unto the dying of the Sun. Pope Guilty posted:Lol if you think institutionalized racism isn't rampant in every country in Europe.
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Nov 28, 2015 04:19
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Nessus posted:Well I believe there's a bunch of these projects out there. Nessus posted:As for the statements that "black people are people, and all people are equal," I think you are severely underestimating how much a lot of folks are willing to actually live by those particular assertions. Right? What else is there to say? It should be sufficient to say that. Anybody who requires a people (or a person) to prove equal cognitive capabilities before granting equal rights is bad. E: if at all, lesser cognitive capabilities should result in more protection by the state, such as what we grant children and intellectually/cognitively disabled people. Nessus posted:It's certainly a different kind of racism. For instance, I don't believe there's meaningful widespread prejudice against Roma people in the US (indeed, a not-uncommon reaction to news of discrimination against Roma is, "Wait, gypsies are real?"), while I also gather there is much less color prejudice against black folks in France. Cingulate has a new favorite as of 04:40 on Nov 28, 2015 |
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Nov 28, 2015 04:38
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Cingulate posted:Right? What else is there to say? It should be sufficient to say that. Anybody who requires a people (or a person) to prove equal cognitive capabilities before granting equal rights is bad. (Of course a weaker position that "even within the widest plausible spread, most healthy adult humans aren't different enough to justify different rights, which would just result in abuse anyway" is perfectly coherent, and likely what most people mean when they make these kind of absolute statements anyway.)
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Nov 28, 2015 05:39
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Cingulate posted:Show them. Belief is fine, but largely irrelevant here. I'm gonna be real with you that this is the "pick fun of Dark Enlightenment guys" thread and not the "earnestly debate the genetic basis of human intellectual capacity" thread. If you want to start the latter I suggest you go do it in D&D or something. You can interpret this as a victory of whatever sort you like. quote:And that's bad. quote:Pioneer's administrative procedures are as unusual as its charter. Although the fund typically gives away more than half a million dollars per year, there is no application form or set of guidelines. Instead, according to Weyher, an applicant merely submits "a letter containing a brief description of the nature of the research and the amount of the grant requested." There is no requirement for peer review of any kind; Pioneer's board of directors—two attorneys, two engineers, and an investment broker—decides, sometimes within a day, whether a particular research proposal merits funding. Once the grant has been made, there is no requirement for an interim or final report or even for an acknowledgment by a grantee that Pioneer has been the source of support, all atypical practices in comparison to other organizations that support scientific research.[2] quote:E: if at all, lesser cognitive capabilities should result in more protection by the state, such as what we grant children and intellectually/cognitively disabled people.
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Nov 28, 2015 10:33
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Nessus posted:Here, have a look at the one I was talking about earlier. http://abc.fpg.unc.edu/ Yet, the abecedarian thing was so far not replicated, and when I originally said science has not found such a way yet, that does still represent, I think, a fair representation of our situation. And that's what I'm resting my assessment of situation on, not what I hope to be true. Nessus posted:Yeah, you'd think that. Here, take a look on some of the people who are big funders in this field: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pioneer_Fund Oligopsony posted:Well, that latter protection does frequently come with diminished autonomy, which is justified on the grounds of a finished capacity for full autonomy anyway. Likewise, for instance, the different legal status implied by a state of intoxication, with its temporary impairment of relevant faculties. Likewise also, for an extreme case, animals. "We should treat everyone compassionately" is presumably a principle we can sustain regardless of the facts of the matter, but "everyone should have equal rights" is harder. 1. black people are dumb through no fault of their own, but simply genes 2. therefore, they should be protected people like children and the retarded I was only trying to point out that if you were to agree with 1, what you should consequentially follow it up with is 2, and not a call to reduce welfare, decreased legal protection, mocking them, and so on.
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Nov 28, 2015 13:12
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Also to be clear I wasn't trying to say you were saying that, only that (completely) isolating questions of rights from factual capacities (whatever they might be - I'm not being obliquely bullish on HBD or whatever) seems untenable as a principle.
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Nov 28, 2015 14:01
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