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My Imaginary GF posted:I still do not understand Peronism. Was it, like, the 1940's version of Trump support? Peronism is glorious in that it's a purely performative ideology. You don't need to understand what it is or how it was formed, if you say you're a peronist then you're a peronist. If you say what you're doing is peronism, then it's peronism. In that way, peronism is both like an artform and like art itself 
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Nov 25, 2015 16:11
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Peronism is ideology-fluid
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Nov 25, 2015 17:37
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Polidoro posted:Peronism is ideology-fluid I always understood it as something vaguely socialist, very authoritarian , and in the South American populist and paternalistic tradition. And people will get into heated debates about it being rightist or leftist.
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Nov 25, 2015 17:49
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post your favourite school workbook itt
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Nov 25, 2015 17:53
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Elias_Maluco posted:I always understood it as something vaguely socialist, very authoritarian , and in the South American populist and paternalistic tradition. And people will get into heated debates about it being rightist or leftist. Well, looking from the other side of the charco Peronism is a clown car of ideas but in the end ideas don't matter because it's just a cult of personality. edit: And the worst thing about it it's that it's contagious as you can see from Pepe Mujica's sector here in the 'guay.
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Nov 25, 2015 18:04
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Elias_Maluco posted:I always understood it as something vaguely socialist, very authoritarian , and in the South American populist and paternalistic tradition. And people will get into heated debates about it being rightist or leftist. Argentina was aligned with the Axis during WWII, it's basically Fascism-lite.
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Nov 25, 2015 18:12
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Polidoro posted:Well, looking from the other side of the charco Peronism is a clown car of ideas but in the end ideas don't matter because it's just a cult of personality. Lula here in Brasil
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Nov 25, 2015 18:12
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Ghost of Mussolini posted:post your favourite school workbook itt That book is all kinds of crazy: 
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Nov 25, 2015 18:13
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So, Delcídio Amaral, one of PT's senators and the situation's leader on Congress and Senate, has been arrested today for involvement in the Petrolão scandal - supposedly paying 50k a month to Cerveró so he'd keep quiet about the corruption at Petrobrás and helping him flee the country. For the same reason, André Esteves, a big-name banker and Aécio Neves's best man, is also locked up. So right now we're seeing supporters of both PT and PSDB scurrying to say neither of those guys had ANYTHING to do with their respective party's leadership. As a Brazilian journalist put it, "today we learned you don't need to be close friends with someone to be their best man on their wedding, and that you can be Senate leader of a party you're barely connected to". Brazilian politics are so cute. edit: also, why are Brazilians so confused about Peronism? Getúlio Vargas was a thing.
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Nov 25, 2015 18:26
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Lula and Mujica are cool
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Nov 25, 2015 18:31
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TheLovablePlutonis posted:Lula and Mujica are cool Maybe you should go back to Cuba.
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Nov 25, 2015 18:40
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TheLovablePlutonis posted:Lula and Mujica are cool I voted for Mujica and will regret it all my life. He was the worst president I can remember.
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Nov 25, 2015 18:40
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Constant Hamprince posted:Argentina was aligned with the Axis during WWII, it's basically Fascism-lite. yeah, I know, but isn't Kirchnerism a kind of Peronism and is considered left? is really confusing. TheLovablePlutonis posted:Lula and Mujica are cool They are, but both were subject of the same kind of personality cult., I think.
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Nov 25, 2015 18:40
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Elias_Maluco posted:yeah, I know, but isn't Kirchnerism a kind of Peronism 
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Nov 25, 2015 19:21
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Let's get the party started. 
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Nov 25, 2015 20:57
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Polidoro posted:I voted for Mujica and will regret it all my life. He was the worst president I can remember. why? he seemed pretty cool from the outside.
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Nov 25, 2015 20:59
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Elias_Maluco posted:yeah, I know, but isn't Kirchnerism a kind of Peronism and is considered left? is really confusing. Original flavour Italian Fascism can be made to sound socialist enough if emphasize certain elements, it was originally sold as a 'third way' between capitalist democracy and socialism. Of course, they differ strongly in practice and were polar opposites on the subject of nationalism, but virtually all left-wing governments outside of the West are stridently nationalist anyway so that's not much of a problem.
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Nov 25, 2015 21:01
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Elias_Maluco posted:why? he seemed pretty cool from the outside. He didn't do poo poo. He spent most of his period self-promoting. People outside love him because he's "poor" and "legalized" weed when weed's been always legal to consume and the law that regulates production is a mess and still hasn't come into effect. Also, I feel he used his image as a poor man to deflect a lot of shady poo poo that went down during his government. Every time you bring any instances of this up, you get shut down by the "but he's so poor/humble, he can't be involved in anything". It also bothers me that for such a revolutionary as he's supposed to be, he always ended up doing what the US wanted like getting the Guantanamo prisoners which was such a big mess that the prison might not close after all. He used them and the Syrian refugees we got for self-promotion and now these people are becoming a problem. And finally he left us with a dwindling economy and the biggest deficit in history right at the end of the commodities craze, and the education system is in the worst shape it's ever been when he said in his inaugural speech that the three most important words for his government would be "education, education, education". This last thing makes sense when you see he later claimed that his votes come mostly by ignorant people. I could write more but have to go.
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Nov 25, 2015 22:50
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Polidoro posted:He didn't do poo poo. He spent most of his period self-promoting. People outside love him because he's "poor" and "legalized" weed when weed's been always legal to consume and the law that regulates production is a mess and still hasn't come into effect. He is one of those people leftists quote all over Latin America when arguing that left wing governments are the answer. It's not so difficult to argue against this when you check Uruguay's numbers in economy after he took over. Which latin american country governed by the left has had any real improvement? Chile perhaps? I'm more inclined to the left, but OMG are left parties in latin america the worst kind of left.
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Nov 26, 2015 03:38
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Bolivia?
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Nov 26, 2015 03:43
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El Chingon posted:He is one of those people leftists quote all over Latin America when arguing that left wing governments are the answer. It's not so difficult to argue against this when you check Uruguay's numbers in economy after he took over. Which latin american country governed by the left has had any real improvement? Chile perhaps? I was gonna argue Brazil but there are signs that the recent crisis will sink the millions of people who left poverty in the last 12 years back to it lmao
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Nov 26, 2015 03:44
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El Chingon posted:He is one of those people leftists quote all over Latin America when arguing that left wing governments are the answer. It's not so difficult to argue against this when you check Uruguay's numbers in economy after he took over. Which latin american country governed by the left has had any real improvement? Chile perhaps? As of the current government you can leave the Chilean left out of the not bad ones. hecko posted:Bolivia?
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Nov 26, 2015 16:31
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 Across the state of São Paulo there is a wave of school occupations in protest to the state's new education budget that closes a chunk of the schools, lowers professor salaries and budgets all around.   There's even an interactive google maps thingy. The homeless workers movement and landless workers movement have pledged support to the occupiers, leading to the usual são paulo thing where everything is a PT conspiracy by drat commies, the budget adjustments are necessary state size reductions, etc. Let's see if they manage to get something out of this against an embarrassingly biased media and entrenched political interests. edit : oh yeah and apparently there's support straight from syrian kurdistan apparently 
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Nov 26, 2015 20:22
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bagual posted:edit : oh yeah and apparently there's support straight from syrian kurdistan apparently I hope all the homosexual homeless in São Paulo seize the reigns of government or whatever it is that they want
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Nov 26, 2015 21:28
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Polidoro posted:He didn't do poo poo. He spent most of his period self-promoting. People outside love him because he's "poor" and "legalized" weed when weed's been always legal to consume and the law that regulates production is a mess and still hasn't come into effect. hold the presses, a president of a country with a 3.5 million population didn't create full socialism or a libertarian utopia while he ruled during a serious financial meltdown?
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Nov 27, 2015 01:01
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Mans posted:hold the presses, a president of a country with a 3.5 million population didn't create full socialism or a libertarian utopia while he ruled during a serious financial meltdown? I don't know what part of what I said can make you say that.
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Nov 27, 2015 04:26
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To be honest, statistically it looks like Uruguay was doing fairly well, not amazing but hardly terrible.
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Nov 27, 2015 17:09
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Yeah, didn't you also have a meltdown during the 90's/early 00's? I'd hardly think the last years have been that bad. My Uruguayan cousins seem to be doing well enough.
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Nov 27, 2015 17:34
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I just wrote a wall of text but deleted it, I'm not saying that the economy was bad during Mujica's government. I'm saying it started to go downhill during his government because international prices changed a lot and he did nothing but waste money and give his oppinion on stuff on TV. Now the new government came and there's no money and the economy is getting weaker, so there won't be money for some time unless we increase the debt (which is already at 62% of the GDP). To top it off he seems to be in some kind of power struggle with Vázquez and is making it difficult for the new government to do anything.
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Nov 27, 2015 20:07
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Polidoro posted:I just wrote a wall of text but deleted it, I'm not saying that the economy was bad during Mujica's government. I'm saying it started to go downhill during his government because international prices changed a lot and he did nothing but waste money and give his oppinion on stuff on TV. Now the new government came and there's no money and the economy is getting weaker, so there won't be money for some time unless we increase the debt (which is already at 62% of the GDP). To top it off he seems to be in some kind of power struggle with Vázquez and is making it difficult for the new government to do anything. Haha, you basically described Dilma's first mandate, although it wasn't so much "wasting money" as it was "pretend the finances are fine, oil prices are fine, EVERYTHING IS FINE". Are you guys also stuck with an opposition party that would make the same gently caress-ups at best too?
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Nov 27, 2015 20:15
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Polidoro posted:I just wrote a wall of text but deleted it, I'm not saying that the economy was bad during Mujica's government. I'm saying it started to go downhill during his government because international prices changed a lot and he did nothing but waste money and give his oppinion on stuff on TV. Now the new government came and there's no money and the economy is getting weaker, so there won't be money for some time unless we increase the debt (which is already at 62% of the GDP). To top it off he seems to be in some kind of power struggle with Vázquez and is making it difficult for the new government to do anything. Uruguay is super small and entirely dependant on the export market and foreign investment. Mujica's a bit of a muppet specially with regards to his education policy but he seemed to not throw Uruguay down the gutter which seems to be the standard policy of everywhere after 2009.
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Nov 27, 2015 21:06
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Polidoro posted:I just wrote a wall of text but deleted it, I'm not saying that the economy was bad during Mujica's government. I'm saying it started to go downhill during his government because international prices changed a lot and he did nothing but waste money and give his oppinion on stuff on TV. Now the new government came and there's no money and the economy is getting weaker, so there won't be money for some time unless we increase the debt (which is already at 62% of the GDP). To top it off he seems to be in some kind of power struggle with Vázquez and is making it difficult for the new government to do anything. Sounds like whatever we're going to face un Argentina in the next few years. 
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Nov 27, 2015 21:14
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Future Days posted:Sounds like whatever we're going to face un Argentina in the next few years. nah, it's more likely gonna be privatization and getting a new one torn open in the international market im also gonna throw in the possibility of getting deeper in debt but lets see how that works out
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Nov 27, 2015 21:45
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Dias posted:Haha, you basically described Dilma's first mandate, although it wasn't so much "wasting money" as it was "pretend the finances are fine, oil prices are fine, EVERYTHING IS FINE". Are you guys also stuck with an opposition party that would make the same gently caress-ups at best too? I don't know what they would do, but I think when everyone is inept alternating the parties in charge is the best thing to do. Mans posted:Uruguay is super small and entirely dependant on the export market and foreign investment. Mujica's a bit of a muppet specially with regards to his education policy but he seemed to not throw Uruguay down the gutter which seems to be the standard policy of everywhere after 2009. ANCAP has the monopoly of fuel and gas in the country. It needs a one billion dollar cash injection to keep functining. That's 1.7% of our GDP. There's a commision investigating what the company did during Mujica's government. Mujica spent hundreds of millions in an airline that hasn't made a single flight in more than three years. Including having a fake auction with a fake company pretending to buy it so one of his friends didn't have to say it was him buying it. He personally called the president of a state owned bank so he would sign papers allowing this to happen. The bank's president and the economy minister were investigated for this and the minister quit but nobody said anything about poor Pepe. Mujica wanted to build a giant gas plant, much bigger than what the country needs (it would produce three times what we consume), what better way to do it that start a private company with less than a hundred employees to run it all? The project was suspended and we lost at least 140 million. They used private companies for things like this because it allows them to pay salaries higher than that of the President which is the highest salary the government can pay. They paid millions in salaries alone during the few months the company functioned. All our deals with Venezuela were made through a private company that charged 3% of every transaction between the goverments. That company belongs to people connected with Mujica, one of them was given an office in the presidential building. Before this he was known for being dressed as a duck during national team games and for a scam with cheques. Now he's a millionaire. They tried to do the same with Ecuador which caused the relationship with Correa to get cold. State owned banks kept lending money to companies he didn't want to close because they were owned by friends or ran by workers and when they did it anyway we lost more money. One of these companies closed recently and was owned by the guy who paid for Pepe's presidential band and lent him his plane during his campaign. According to the only list I saw that guy is the richest man in this country but took all the loans he could and ran away. When the DGI caught Paco Casal evading taxes he helped him avoid the bill (another hundred million dollars). If you don't know who Paco Casal is, he's the owner of the company that owns the rights to football here. He also owns most of the players. He's probably the biggest mobster in the country. He problably threw us down the gutter, it's just that we don't know it yet. Future Days posted:Sounds like whatever we're going to face un Argentina in the next few years. Well Mujica's been accused of bringing Peronism to Uruguay so...
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Nov 27, 2015 21:51
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ArfJason posted:nah, it's more likely gonna be privatization and getting a new one torn open in the international market Just default on the new debt, they will never see that coming
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Nov 27, 2015 21:53
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Brazil is going to sue Samarco for $5.2 billion 
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Nov 30, 2015 18:05
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We are so hosed with debt that they are bringing the paper poll back next election.
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Dec 1, 2015 14:36
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TheLovablePlutonis posted:We are so hosed with debt that they are bringing the paper poll back next election. But that's a good thing? Electronic voting should be banned.
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Dec 1, 2015 17:08
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Polidoro posted:But that's a good thing? Electronic voting should be banned. It's no harder to fraud a paper ballot than electronic voting stations. People get this false sense of security because "oh it's a REAL piece o paper" but most election frauds in history have happened regardless of paper ballots, it's the counting phase that matters and you're not in it. There's no way around having a culture of fair elections.
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Dec 1, 2015 17:57
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bagual posted:It's no harder to fraud a paper ballot than electronic voting stations. People get this false sense of security because "oh it's a REAL piece o paper" but most election frauds in history have happened regardless of paper ballots, it's the counting phase that matters and you're not in it. There's no way around having a culture of fair elections. It is much harder to fraud paper ballot. I don't know how it is everywhere else, but here you'd need to have people from every party and the army on your side to alter the results. With electronic voting you need just a handful of people and there are multiple points where you can alter the results. Not to mention that electronic voting means opening the door to a third (probably foreign) party to the electoral process. Separately, the audit process of electronic voting machines is a nightmare and doesn't guarantee anything. The company let's the Electoral Court audit the code they use for the machines. How do you know the code is the same that is installed in the machine? How do you know the code is the same in all the machines? How do you know the code doesn't change itself after the machine was installed? It's impossible to be 100% sure there was no fraud and at least with paper ballots you need much more people to know about the fraud which increases the probability of people finding out. Polidoro fucked around with this message at 22:33 on Dec 1, 2015 |
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Dec 1, 2015 18:25
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