|
Prop Wash posted:Speaking of Sweden Isn't OP (and vassal starts in general), I noticed DDRJake did fairly well with his Mzab campaign by fighting an initial war of independence and taking a ton of land instead of actually winning independence. It seems like it's a lot easier to make big scary friends using support for independence than alliances. I wonder if it might be easier to just take a ton of Danish land in an opening Swedish war for independence. You're more likely to get big ol' allies for Support Independence because you can get supporters both from people who like your country and people who just hate your overlord. If things shake out right, Dutch Minors can get England, France and Austria to support their independence war, and they're sure as poo poo not going to be able to keep all three once they're independent.
|
#
?
Nov 29, 2015 06:13
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 16, 2024 05:24 |
|
|
Prop Wash posted:Speaking of Sweden Isn't OP (and vassal starts in general), I noticed DDRJake did fairly well with his Mzab campaign by fighting an initial war of independence and taking a ton of land instead of actually winning independence. It seems like it's a lot easier to make big scary friends using support for independence than alliances. I wonder if it might be easier to just take a ton of Danish land in an opening Swedish war for independence. Yeah agree with Sweden you should just take independence while you can get it and start beating up your neighbors before PLC or Muscovy can get scary. Additionally, join the HRE if you want. This might become a lot harder with Cossacks since apparently the filthy swamp Swedes (  ) are getting buffed.
|
|
#
?
Nov 29, 2015 06:26
|
|
|
I just realized how good pillaging is going to be. You get 25 of each monarch power AND the province costs 30 admin less to core AND it will have a lower impact on religious unity and overextension AND it will be easier to convert. Totally worth the development, which would be poo poo anyway due to autonomy. Really can't wait for Tuesday.
|
|
#
?
Nov 29, 2015 07:07
|
|
|
Fister Roboto posted:I just realized how good pillaging is going to be. You get 25 of each monarch power AND the province costs 30 admin less to core AND it will have a lower impact on religious unity and overextension AND it will be easier to convert. Totally worth the development, which would be poo poo anyway due to autonomy. Really can't wait for Tuesday. im charging my spergs
|
|
#
?
Nov 29, 2015 07:17
|
|
|
Fister Roboto posted:I just realized how good pillaging is going to be. You get 25 of each monarch power AND the province costs 30 admin less to core AND it will have a lower impact on religious unity and overextension AND it will be easier to convert. Totally worth the development, which would be poo poo anyway due to autonomy. Really can't wait for Tuesday. I'm going to burn North Italy to the loving ground.
|
|
#
?
Nov 29, 2015 07:19
|
|
|
I'm just trying to decide which horde to play as. Do any of them have unique ideas? If not I'll probably just rock Oirat and do the Ottoman thing, alternating east and west expansion.
|
|
#
?
Nov 29, 2015 07:20
|
|
|
Fuligin posted:I'm just trying to decide which horde to play as. Do any of them have unique ideas? If not I'll probably just rock Oirat and do the Ottoman thing, alternating east and west expansion. Hordes with unique ideas: The Jurchens (Yeren, Haixi, and the canon winner Jianzhou) all have the very good Manchu ideas Kazan TImurids (go Zoroastrian for proper experience) The rest have the steppe nomad ideas, which are great if lacking in diversity. Though have we gotten any word on new idea sets?
|
|
#
?
Nov 29, 2015 07:26
|
|
|
You might want to declare on Norway again as soon as possible so you can take their little islands and hopefully get into Scotland to kneecap English expansion as well. Then again the Baltic coastline is good money, but you don't need all of it. Especially if you have to fight Lithuania and Poland over it. Taking out Riga and the Livonian Order should be a priority though.
|
|
#
?
Nov 29, 2015 07:26
|
|
|
Funky Valentine posted:Hordes with unique ideas: I completely forgot about the Manchu tribes. I haven't done a Qing run before, seems like now's the time.
|
|
#
?
Nov 29, 2015 07:29
|
|
|
Funky Valentine posted:I'm going to burn North Italy to the loving ground. There ought to be some sort of achievement for pillaging Rome or Constantinople down to a 1/1/1 shithole.
|
|
#
?
Nov 29, 2015 07:30
|
|
|
Fister Roboto posted:There ought to be some sort of achievement for pillaging Rome or Constantinople down to a 1/1/1 shithole. Well there's one for burning down a province with over 30 development.
|
|
#
?
Nov 29, 2015 07:32
|
|
|
Nice.
|
|
#
?
Nov 29, 2015 07:32
|
|
|
Fister Roboto posted:There ought to be some sort of achievement for pillaging Rome or Constantinople down to a 1/1/1 shithole. Brennus Khan - As a horde, raze Roma Venice Khan - As a horde, raze Constantinople
|
|
#
?
Nov 29, 2015 07:32
|
|
|
Remember, Tengri has a bunch of new awesome mechanics! Zoroastrian Timurids is also tempting, but I gotta go Tengri first. If I can, I'm also going to get the Norse achievement (Starting as a Norse custom nation with no more than 200 points and a maximum of 5 provinces, own & core Scandinavia and the British Isles and convert it all to Norse.) as a Horde. I think that should be possible, right? edit: Could also cheese it and get the First Come First Serve achievement at the same time (Starting as a Western technology custom nation in North America or South America with no more than 200 points, unite the two continents)
|
|
#
?
Nov 29, 2015 07:38
|
|
|
The custom nation achievements are a really good idea. It will be interesting to see the various and possibly radically different ways people go to get each one. EU4 is the only game where the achievements are the driving force that makes me play it, they really give you a goal and a great challenge.
|
|
#
?
Nov 29, 2015 07:45
|
|
|
Ithle01 posted:You might want to declare on Norway again as soon as possible so you can take their little islands and hopefully get into Scotland to kneecap English expansion as well. Then again the Baltic coastline is good money, but you don't need all of it. Especially if you have to fight Lithuania and Poland over it. Taking out Riga and the Livonian Order should be a priority though. That's a great idea that I didn't even think of myself, but unfortunately Scotland is guaranteed by France and I don't really feel up to handing that just yet.
|
|
#
?
Nov 29, 2015 07:51
|
|
|
Prop Wash posted:Remember, Tengri has a bunch of new awesome mechanics! Zoroastrian Timurids is also tempting, but I gotta go Tengri first. If I can, I'm also going to get the Norse achievement (Starting as a Norse custom nation with no more than 200 points and a maximum of 5 provinces, own & core Scandinavia and the British Isles and convert it all to Norse.) as a Horde. I think that should be possible, right? Go for both, name your country Vinland.
|
|
#
?
Nov 29, 2015 07:54
|
|
|
I'm just bummed Hordes don't get free reinforcements anymore. That was the best.
|
|
#
?
Nov 29, 2015 08:04
|
|
Yes, it's like a lava lamp.
|
PittTheElder posted:I'm just bummed Hordes don't get free reinforcements anymore. That was the best. Noooooooooooooo That was the best idea in the game
|
|
#
?
Nov 29, 2015 08:26
|
|
|
TheFluff posted:That's a great idea that I didn't even think of myself, but unfortunately Scotland is guaranteed by France and I don't really feel up to handing that just yet. How many countries would they have to get access from to reach you? Their navy is poo poo at the starting date.
|
|
#
?
Nov 29, 2015 08:30
|
|
|
TheFluff posted:That's a great idea that I didn't even think of myself, but unfortunately Scotland is guaranteed by France and I don't really feel up to handing that just yet. Like BgRdMachne said their navy is usually pretty weak and you should have enough coastal territory to be able to beat them at sea. Besides I think there's some sea territory nearby that you can lure them into and beat them down with galleys. Fortunately, you don't have any continental territory and unless your vassals screw you France shouldn't be able to get access to you by going the long way around. At any rate, that guarantee shouldn't last long, England might beat you to the punch and take care of the problem for you. Or France will get into a terrible war and then you can pounce. It's just a matter of time really.
|
|
#
?
Nov 29, 2015 08:41
|
|
|
PittTheElder posted:I'm just bummed Hordes don't get free reinforcements anymore. That was the best. ? In DDRjakes preview stream with Aq Qounluy he had free reinforcements, so I'm pretty sure thats still in for the generic horde ideas.
|
|
#
?
Nov 29, 2015 09:08
|
|
|
Node posted:EU4 is the only game where the achievements are the driving force that makes me play it, they really give you a goal and a great challenge. Agreed, except CK2 as well. So many games have really boring low-effort achievements that all basically involve one of: a) Playing the for more than five minutes b) Playing/beating the game normally c) Grinding Paradox has a few of A and B but the majority are actually interesting and challenging and work really well with their games' sandbox nature.
|
|
#
?
Nov 29, 2015 11:43
|
|
|
MrBling posted:? it's tied to government type now, not ideas. it means even Timurids and Manchus etc get them now
|
|
#
?
Nov 29, 2015 14:38
|
|
|
Koramei posted:it's tied to government type now, not ideas. it means even Timurids and Manchus etc get them now I just saw the five minutes of Arumba's stream that were linked here, and saw that Uzbek didn't have free reinforcements. But maybe he was just looking in the wrong spot.
|
|
#
?
Nov 29, 2015 17:56
|
|
|
I think since nomad governments have 3 bonuses already it goes off the screen and doesn't show it. Or maybe it's tied to tech group or something. In any case I remember reading them say they were detaching it from the ideas, but it's definitely still there. e: unrelatedly, Arumba seems to be trying to push that the horde razing is broken and needs a nerf?  I mean yeah okay if you go on a pseudo-world conquest then you can roughly keep up with the Europeans on tech, but drat man don't try to take away the fun before the DLC even comes out
Koramei fucked around with this message at 18:08 on Nov 29, 2015 |
|
#
?
Nov 29, 2015 18:03
|
|
|
So I'm having trouble seeing what's so good about razing. You knock down the development of the province, right? Is that ever a good long-term strategy, even for monarch points? Assume I want to play a Manch->Qing game, would I be better off razing all of China or just the bits I don't care about in the deserts, and bits of Manchuria? I don't think going to town on China and Japan is a good idea, or am I wrong here? Razing just seems like something I'd do to 1/1/1 provinces to nab a few monarch points because 1/1/1 is the cap anyway.
|
|
#
?
Nov 29, 2015 18:33
|
|
|
Koramei posted:I think since nomad governments have 3 bonuses already it goes off the screen and doesn't show it. Or maybe it's tied to tech group or something. In any case I remember reading them say they were detaching it from the ideas, but it's definitely still there. It's strong, but it's supposed to be strong. Arumba isn't a very critical thinker. The mechanics may get tweaked as we go on, but my perception is that steppe hordes are meant to be able to keep up with Western tech groups in the early years if they raze everything they take. That's not a design flaw, because the Europeans also get to tech up without having to rely on a finite resource to do so. He's definitely proving that Humanism is a very strong idea set, though. Deltasquid posted:So I'm having trouble seeing what's so good about razing. You knock down the development of the province, right? Is that ever a good long-term strategy, even for monarch points? Can't raze 1/1/1s. But razing is a very strong strategy - in EUIV, there's very little I would trade off for monarch points. They're the most valuable currency in the game. Not only does razing give you MP, but it also lowers coring cost as a result of lower development, so you can grab huge tracts of land and keep going. For hordes, this addresses a huge issue in post-CS EUIV, where grabbing lots of land early on basically cripples you in admin tech for the next century. And the more land you grab, the more land you burn, and essentially for the first hundred years or two you can actually keep up with Western powers. This obviously gives you a tremendous advantage against all your non-Horde non-Western neighbors, like say Ming. This is actually what happened historically, so bonus points for historical determinism! Like you said, the strategy falls short long-term because eventually you run out of provinces to burn without running smack-dab into bigger, more developed, unburned nations. The goal of any horde is to burn faster than Europeans tech, and then attack at the height of your advantage over them. Eventually I feel like you'd want to reform? I don't know, going to have to see how that one plays out. Prop Wash fucked around with this message at 18:45 on Nov 29, 2015 |
|
#
?
Nov 29, 2015 18:37
|
|
|
Deltasquid posted:So I'm having trouble seeing what's so good about razing. You knock down the development of the province, right? Is that ever a good long-term strategy, even for monarch points? All of China, even razed, is a fuckload of development.
|
|
#
?
Nov 29, 2015 18:44
|
|
|
Also razing boosts horde unity and drops revolt risk. Timmy might not be a massive pain in the rear end to play as now.
|
|
#
?
Nov 29, 2015 18:50
|
|
|
Timmy should be a huge pain in the rear end to play though. Even now they basically never disintegrate.
|
|
#
?
Nov 29, 2015 18:58
|
|
|
PittTheElder posted:Timmy should be a huge pain in the rear end to play though. Even now they basically never disintegrate. I feel like I see Persia and Afghanistan form most games.
|
|
#
?
Nov 29, 2015 19:12
|
|
|
Just remember, horde unity drops quicker as your development gets higher. Razing might be a really nice immediate boost that helps you take more land, but if you're blobbing you're still going to want to reform at some point.
|
|
#
?
Nov 29, 2015 19:16
|
|
|
Fuligin posted:I feel like I see Persia and Afghanistan form most games. Yeah Timmy seems to reliably explode in my recent games, it's Ming that is unusually stable and terrifying
|
|
#
?
Nov 29, 2015 19:19
|
|
|
Deltasquid posted:So I'm having trouble seeing what's so good about razing. You knock down the development of the province, right? Is that ever a good long-term strategy, even for monarch points? Spending monarch points on development is almost always a terrible investment. It's something you only do when you're at the monarch point cap and you have nothing else to spend them on. On the other hand, receiving monarch points for lowering development can be a huge advantage because you can spend them on any number of things - tech, ideas, coring, stability, generals, or even developing better provinces. And considering that nomads have the worst tech penalty in the Old World, extra monarch points are always appreciated. Also development is at the minimum 25% less effective for hordes because of the autonomy floor.
|
|
#
?
Nov 29, 2015 19:37
|
|
|
Everything seems great about this expansion except for the useless "K" added to the end of every troop count. What purpose does this serve, other than making it harder to read troop numbers from the tiny label?
|
|
#
?
Nov 29, 2015 19:44
|
|
|
Fister Roboto posted:Spending monarch points on development is almost always a terrible investment. It's something you only do when you're at the monarch point cap and you have nothing else to spend them on. On the other hand, receiving monarch points for lowering development can be a huge advantage because you can spend them on any number of things - tech, ideas, coring, stability, generals, or even developing better provinces. And considering that nomads have the worst tech penalty in the Old World, extra monarch points are always appreciated. Also development is at the minimum 25% less effective for hordes because of the autonomy floor. For most Western tech nations development is a bad deal. In the New World and in the East it can be a fantastic deal on provinces with good trade goods, which are far more common over there than in the West. It can be a great idea to develop provinces over there than spend on dip tech, especially when ahead of time penalties stack with tech group penalties. Also I have literally never seen Timmy not explode. For me they always fallen apart into at least 2 nations, and usually I end up seeing Persia, Afghanistan, a strong(er) Tabarestan. AI Timmy is the worst.
|
|
#
?
Nov 29, 2015 20:03
|
|
|
Timmy needs more reasons and opportunity to form Mughals. Maybe a decision that gives it free Govt reform if has less than x provinces and become Mughal.
|
|
#
?
Nov 29, 2015 21:10
|
|
|
Fister Roboto posted:Spending monarch points on development is almost always a terrible investment. It's something you only do when you're at the monarch point cap and you have nothing else to spend them on. On the other hand, receiving monarch points for lowering development can be a huge advantage because you can spend them on any number of things - tech, ideas, coring, stability, generals, or even developing better provinces. And considering that nomads have the worst tech penalty in the Old World, extra monarch points are always appreciated. Also development is at the minimum 25% less effective for hordes because of the autonomy floor. But again, let's say I'm playing as the Manchu tribes, go for China, raze it to the ground and form Qing. Now I have a weakened China + Manchuria. Is this a better or worse deal than conquering China without razing them? I assume that yes, you pay more adm points to core China, but at least it isn't a crippled China you rule over later. I suppose I could go and raze land I don't care about to get the admin points for coring China? Maybe that's what I'll do tuesday. Bite into China and the steppes, raze whatever I can in the steppes, and use those points to core China. Sell/release razed land afterwards? It just sounds contradictory to me to raze the land you intend to rule over later, if building it up to its previous strength will cost you a grotesque amount of monarch points anyway (i.e. it will forever stay crippled)
|
|
#
?
Nov 29, 2015 21:54
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 16, 2024 05:24 |
|
|
Baron Porkface posted:Timmy needs more reasons and opportunity to form Mughals. Maybe a decision that gives it free Govt reform if has less than x provinces and become Mughal. It gets a ton of missions and claims on India, and at least in most games I play it doesn't seem like Timmy likes to expand west at all. Normally the initial war is east, into the Himalayas, and then either north or south from there. The incentive is there, but the problem with making Mughals is you need most of the provinces that Delhi starts with, and Delhi normally performs very well in the early game. But yeah, I think making Mughals should at least come with a free govt reform. It's hard enough to do that I don't think I've ever seen an AI succeed at it, but on top of crushing Delhi you also have to reform the government. Also lol this hilarious event for Timurids: code:
|
|
#
?
Nov 29, 2015 22:59
|
|