|
It's a combination of barbaric and childish. Libertopia is a mix of longing for horrible things we've mostly cast aside or things that never existed in the first place.
|
#
?
Nov 28, 2015 22:24
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 15, 2024 02:22 |
|
|
paragon1 posted:It's a combination of barbaric and childish. Libertopia is a mix of longing for horrible things we've mostly cast aside or things that never existed in the first place. I don't know if it's longing so much as it is plain ignorance of basic history lessons like Rousseau's Social Contract, feudalism/absence of a strong centralized state, and the experience of the American Gilded Age, among other things. Like, people are straight up asking "it sucks having to pay taxes, what if we tried getting rid of the State, what would happen?" without being aware things like failed states or externalities exist already and can be studied without experimenting for ourselves. Teriyaki Koinku fucked around with this message at 22:34 on Nov 28, 2015 |
|
#
?
Nov 28, 2015 22:31
|
|
|
No see those other failed states didn't have a free market, which we would have without a state to enforce contracts, mediate disputes, and keep trade routes clear because I'm sure the mafia can do a better job once they have to compete with the yakuza and the cartels and the Jets/Sharks for my business.
|
|
#
?
Nov 28, 2015 23:27
|
|
|
QuarkJets posted:Nothing. Just quoting this to bring the discussion onto this page. So, if genetic alterations, or genetic planning was a reality, would Libertopia be Gattica or Brave New World? Because I can see arguments for both.
|
|
#
?
Nov 29, 2015 05:41
|
|
|
Brave New World. None of the proponents of this would ever be an alpha, as much as that's how they see themselves in the new heirachy.
|
|
#
?
Nov 29, 2015 06:22
|
|
|
Your Dunkle Sans posted:I don't know if it's longing so much as it is plain ignorance of basic history lessons like Rousseau's Social Contract, feudalism/absence of a strong centralized state, and the experience of the American Gilded Age, among other things. If you look within your heart then you'll find that the gilded age was actually a point of peak freedom, and therefore prosperity, for the entire country. Furthermore, *lets out an enormous wet fart*
|
|
#
?
Nov 29, 2015 07:47
|
|
|
How to deal with your libertarian family member for thanksgiving: Send him to his room. Edit: Changed them to him because lets be honest, there are no female libertarians.
|
|
#
?
Nov 29, 2015 09:09
|
|
|
Caros posted:How to deal with your libertarian family member for thanksgiving: Send him to his room. I met one once. ... Once.
|
|
#
?
Nov 29, 2015 09:39
|
|
|
Anticheese posted:Brave New World. None of the proponents of this would ever be an alpha, as much as that's how they see themselves in the new heirachy. Replace soma with hypnopaedic recordings telling gammas they too can work their way to alpha-plus if they work hard and never complain, unlike those lazy deltas and epsilons
|
|
#
?
Nov 29, 2015 11:06
|
|
|
YF19pilot posted:From what I understand of the typical Libertarian, being "on call" means getting a call from your boss on your day off to work front end because Sally called in sick again today and we all know she's not really sick, just taking a day off so she can get drunk some more and gently caress that rear end in a top hat boyfriend of hers because she's a stupid bitch who doesn't see that you're such a nice guy and super smart Libertarian ubermensch; and you can't tell your boss no, because bossman already called Ms. Peters and she said 'no' and so did half a dozen other people she called, so you're it to come in and besides you were late twice this week and really should do something to make up for it, not like you've got any friends anyways and your mom is yelling at you because you spend too much time in your basement-room wasting money on LoL and other crap; and dammit, if it wasn't for the government, you'd be one rich motherfucker that those gold digging bitches like Sally wouldn't be able to keep their hands off, but you'd be able to show her what-for by telling her "no, gently caress you you bitch rear end muggle!" Don't stop I'm almost there.
|
|
#
?
Nov 29, 2015 11:17
|
|
|
QuarkJets posted:If you look within your heart then you'll find that the gilded age was actually a point of peak freedom, and therefore prosperity, for the entire country. Furthermore, *lets out an enormous wet fart* Well as one old-school, massively overweight, and questionably hygienic prostitute aficionado once said, motherfuckin' Qualnor posted:Free markets tend to make everyone either middle class or rich unless they're in some way disabled. Look at early American cities. Laissez faire wasn't perfect, but there was very little government intervention and the vast majority of people were middle class.
|
|
#
?
Nov 29, 2015 15:56
|
|
|
Captain_Maclaine posted:Well as one old-school, massively overweight, and questionably hygienic prostitute aficionado once said, but uh the that's not true at all like a cursory glance at history shows you that 
|
|
#
?
Nov 29, 2015 16:34
|
|
|
Ron Paul Atreides posted:but uh the that's not true at all like a cursory glance at history shows you that Qualnor was/is an unbelievable idiot, even by libertarian standards. Not for nothing did he spawn the phrase, "Oh no, it's someone who knows something about anything, qualnor's one weakness!
|
|
#
?
Nov 29, 2015 16:37
|
|
|
Captain_Maclaine posted:Well as one old-school, massively overweight, and questionably hygienic prostitute aficionado once said, blast from the motherfuckin past right here reminder that qalnor was the winner of Worst D&D Poster back when that thread was a contest edit if you have archives the original callout thread is a treat http://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=2646576 BENGHAZI 2 fucked around with this message at 16:46 on Nov 29, 2015 |
|
#
?
Nov 29, 2015 16:41
|
|
|
What I have never understood is why Americans feel so much guilt for screwing the Indians over in the first place. The simple fact of the matter is this: they lost, and we won. Their culture was inferior, and we conquered it. Now, however, it seems that we are expected to feel sorry because instead of killing them all of we shunted them off to the side? Worse yet, we seem to be giving their culture weapons to use against ours. Granted, these weapons are certainly insufficient to destroy us; I am not trying to suggest that there is a conspiracy for world Indian supremecy. Yet we are giving them free economic advantages because we feel bad? If we must feel bad, here is what I say: Seal the borders to reservations. Allow anyone to leave who wishes, but they may not return, and nobody may visit the reservations. Allow them to rule themselves, and do not affect their lives as long as they remain on the reservations. If they leave the reservation, then they become American citizens and they must find their way in the world like any other American citizen. ---- In some ways, I view the prison rape situation as almost ideal. It is cruelty created by apathy, not revenge and not corruption, and it DOES deter crime. Sadly the aids issue is too valid a point for me to ignore.
|
|
#
?
Nov 29, 2015 16:47
|
|
|
Lottery of Babylon? Is that you?
|
|
#
?
Nov 29, 2015 16:53
|
|
|
Ron Paul Atreides posted:but uh the that's not true at all like a cursory glance at history shows you that "Middle class" begins when most of your children are only crippled by malnutrition instead of killed and ends somewhere slightly below the Vanderbilts
|
|
#
?
Nov 29, 2015 16:54
|
|
|
VitalSigns posted:"Middle class" begins when most of your children are only crippled by malnutrition instead of killed and ends somewhere slightly below the Vanderbilts Qualnor was also a master backpedaler who put Jrod's paltry ability to obfuscate and equivocate to shame. From that example I gave above, he first claimed his only mistake was to say "vast," then to claim he only was talking about cities (because Laissez faire only exists within capitalism, which doesn't really exist outside of cities), then well no he didn't really know much about cities of the Gilded Age but that doesn't matter because he really was only talking about the colonial through Ante-Bellum period, then that yes though there were a lot of slaves back then they were only slaves because of government laws so it's not the market's fault, which finally lead to this devastating reply, Hot Dog Day #91 posted:Slave codes dont exist until 1705 so what are they before they were legally slaves hmm Qalnor hmm? Which finally got him to tuck tail and run.
|
|
#
?
Nov 29, 2015 17:05
|
|
|
thank you for linking that poo poo and reminding me that i actually wanted to reread that thread now that archives are back memories....
|
|
#
?
Nov 29, 2015 17:06
|
|
|
Literally The Worst posted:thank you for linking that poo poo and reminding me that i actually wanted to reread that thread now that archives are back No problem. I think it's good to remember that for despite how despicable his opinions are and wordy his posts, Jrod's really fairly tame compared with some libertarians we had to deal with back when they were in their heyday. As far as I can tell, there's no reason to think Jrod doesn't bathe on a regular basis, nor that one of his underlying motives in desiring a stateless society would be unfettered access to prostitutes.
|
|
#
?
Nov 29, 2015 17:10
|
|
|
Captain_Maclaine posted:...yes though there were a lot of slaves back then they were only slaves because of government laws so it's not the market's fault, Jesus loving Christ.
|
|
#
?
Nov 29, 2015 17:18
|
|
|
Literally The Worst posted:What I have never understood is why Americans feel so much guilt for screwing the Indians over in the first place. The simple fact of the matter is this: they lost, and we won. Their culture was inferior, and we conquered it. Holy poo poo, Qualnor must have been an awful poster.I'm imagining a literal overweight smug 1800s colonialist complete with pike hat and monocle.
|
|
#
?
Nov 29, 2015 17:53
|
|
|
Your Dunkle Sans posted:
As Literally The Worst mentioned, he "won" the Worst D & D Poster contest back in 2008, by a fair margin as I recall. And your mental picture of him is close, but he wasn't nearly that punctilious about his appearance. Think a shambling garbage pile which hadn't cut or combed its hair a month and was carrying a well-worn copy of "The Fountainhead."
|
|
#
?
Nov 29, 2015 17:57
|
|
|
VitalSigns posted:No see those other failed states didn't have a free market, which we would have without a state to enforce contracts, mediate disputes, and keep trade routes clear because I'm sure the mafia can do a better job once they have to compete with the yakuza and the cartels and the Jets/Sharks for my business. But aren't things like mafia/feudal lords/warlords/cartels/etc just non-state actors just filling in the vacuum left behind by an absence of a unified state? Why do they seem to proliferate mainly in areas a state authority can't or won't control? They seem to basically be a state authority functionally (although not in name) but even more chaotic and violent and less accountable. Why is this a preferable alternative? Hell, just look at the period between the collapse of the Chinese dynastic system and the Chinese civil war between the Nationalists and the Communists. It was basically an unending grind of warlords duking it out in areas outside of cities like Shanghai and Peking which led people like Chiang Kai-Shek to prominence in trying to reassert order in lawless areas and others like Mao Zedong to infiltrate said rural areas. In this light, DROs are basically glorified tribes and warlords with a fresh coat of paint. Teriyaki Koinku fucked around with this message at 18:11 on Nov 29, 2015 |
|
#
?
Nov 29, 2015 18:05
|
|
|
All that's important is that the state doesn't have a monopoly on force. Yeah, you have to not think about it too hard and ignore how it's never worked out in human history. (oh right, and throw in some handwaving about free markets.) ((Libertarianism in short right there.))
Polygynous fucked around with this message at 18:27 on Nov 29, 2015 |
|
#
?
Nov 29, 2015 18:23
|
|
|
Qualnor is so legendarily bad that his Helldump thread is the only one I ever sought out. The second post after the OP is something like "this is the most inevitable thread ever." Well folks today's the day. I reckon on starting about 7 PM EST. Hopefully that's not too late or early for anybody and this is enough notice. Here's the link to the Google hangout we'll be using. https://hangouts.google.com/hangouts/_/p2fbajmezrzctrmdymqla5mwgaa Hope to see y'all there.
|
|
#
?
Nov 29, 2015 18:26
|
|
|
spoon0042 posted:All that's important is that the state doesn't have a monopoly on force. Yeah, you have to not think about it too hard and ignore how it's never worked out in human history. (Libertarianism in short right there.) Yeah, but that's what I'm saying. Between the alternatives, at least a state monopoly on violence is more predictable and more accountable than a free-for-all between an oligopoly of warlords and gangs where you can be randomly murdered by Gang Blu when they confused you for belonging to Gang Red territory when you're actually Joe Peasant who wants to be left alone.
|
|
#
?
Nov 29, 2015 18:28
|
|
|
qalnor, 
|
|
#
?
Nov 29, 2015 18:48
|
|
|
Captain_Maclaine posted:Well as one old-school, massively overweight, and questionably hygienic prostitute aficionado once said, Jesus. loving. Wept.  Also, I'm almost afraid to ask, but I noticed a username I ran across on a different board a good, long while back and I have to know: Was part of HappyElf's shtick to wish people a 'happy plane day' on the anniversaries of 9/11?
|
|
#
?
Nov 29, 2015 18:57
|
|
|
Not that I can think of anything specific but that sounds like one of the less objectionable things happyelf would be known for. Dude was king of the ignore list for a reason.
|
|
#
?
Nov 29, 2015 19:00
|
|
|
Libertarians are just pining for the days of Robber Barons tbh
|
|
#
?
Nov 29, 2015 20:03
|
|
|
TLM3101 posted:Jesus. loving. Wept. Probably not, but there's a reason that  exists.
|
|
#
?
Nov 29, 2015 20:24
|
|
|
spoon0042 posted:All that's important is that the state doesn't have a monopoly on force. Yeah, you have to not think about it too hard and ignore how it's never worked out in human history. (oh right, and throw in some handwaving about free markets.) ((Libertarianism in short right there.)) Since I'm apparently in nostalgia mode today, I'll remind everyone that our old standard rejoinder to most/all libertarian treatises was: "on the other hand, all of recorded history." spoon0042 posted:Not that I can think of anything specific but that sounds like one of the less objectionable things happyelf would be known for. Dude was king of the ignore list for a reason. Yeah. Time was, people bought banner ads specifically to advise people to put happyelf on ignore/beg the mods to not let him off probation.
|
|
#
?
Nov 29, 2015 20:55
|
|
|
Captain_Maclaine posted:As Literally The Worst mentioned, he "won" the Worst D & D Poster contest back in 2008, by a fair margin as I recall. And your mental picture of him is close, but he wasn't nearly that punctilious about his appearance. Think a shambling garbage pile which hadn't cut or combed its hair a month and was carrying a well-worn copy of "The Fountainhead." i remember that one picture of him vividly despite not seeing it in like, five years. big fat dude, long hair that at first glance loks like dreads but it turns out that it's just greasy, unkempt beard, god he was such a shitpile in every respect paragon1 posted:Qualnor is so legendarily bad that his Helldump thread is the only one I ever sought out. The second post after the OP is something like "this is the most inevitable thread ever." i will be there!
|
|
#
?
Nov 29, 2015 23:49
|
|
|
TLM3101 posted:Jesus. loving. Wept. does that hpaplyef have horrible spelling errors
|
|
#
?
Nov 29, 2015 23:50
|
|
|
So, this is an old point but the question of employee ownership and workplace democracy still interests me. jrodefeld posted:Let me clarify one thing though. I don't oppose collective ownership of businesses if they are voluntarily formed. I recognize that peaceful collectives can function well in some circumstances. But taking an anecdote and extrapolating it out to how an entire economy might function if ALL businesses where democratically controlled and collectively owned is beyond foolish. I shop at a health food co-op and it is great, but do I think this is how a business like Google should operate? Of course not! Employees at Google might have some fantastic ideas but if they are unsatisfied with the decisions made by the board of directors and CEO, then they can break away and start their own business based on their own ideas, risking their own capital. And this happens all the time. jrod posted this in reply to someone asking about John Lewis, and the praxealogical handwaving here is that this might work for things like retail or grocery stores but not for tech companies I guess? Well, this reads like kind of a fluff piece but it describes Publix, an America grocery store chain that is organized in a way similar to John Lewis. More evidence that it can work for this kind of business I guess! But my question is why this would not apply to other kinds of businesses. Ostensibly this is because democratic consensus would be needed for all design decisions in a company like, say, Apple rather than just letting Steve Jobs do it (although I have no idea why that should be the case). The thing is there's other objections here that are not industry-specific. "Slowing down decision making" matters at any business, but it doesn't hold John Lewis or Publix back. If you look carefully, though, there's a bit of a trick here: jrod "can't believe that you don't think that having to achieve democratic consensus for every single business decision would" suck, except the person he's talking to said nothing about the need for consensus on every single business decision. gently caress, really actually operating democratic governments don't require democratic consensus for every policy or operating decision. There is no reason to expect that "achieving democratic consensus for every single business decision" is how workplace democracy would have to work if democratic government does not. Democratic workplaces could be organized in a "republican" fashion where employees elect management staff or general decision makers and let them sort out assignments of specialized roles, for example. The division of labor would be maintained. jrod, whenever you come back, I hope that you will not ignore this post like you did the last post I made on this subject, because your thoughtful comments would be appreciated, etc. Just to hedge my bets a bit, you are a gigantic racist and so are Ron Paul and Walter Block. Now that I have tricked you into paying attention to this post, go back and read the whole thing to figure out how (or indeed whether) I actually reached this conclusion.
|
|
#
?
Nov 29, 2015 23:57
|
|
|
GunnerJ posted:So, this is an old point but the question of employee ownership and workplace democracy still interests me. I'm still baffled that he came back and went on a rambling bullshit about a debate before vanishing into the goddamned ether for weeks on end. I work twelve hours a day to pay for my wife's schooling, her home out of town while she goes to school, our home in town for when she has her practicums and all associated living costs and I still have time to slap him down like a bitch whenever he shows up. His whining about 'having a life' is actually one of his more frustrating hobbies as of late.
|
|
#
?
Nov 30, 2015 00:23
|
|
|
Literally The Worst posted:i remember that one picture of him vividly despite not seeing it in like, five years. big fat dude, long hair that at first glance loks like dreads but it turns out that it's just greasy, unkempt beard, god he was such a shitpile in every respect Awesome, glad to hear it! Hope Caros posting means he'll be there as well. 
|
|
#
?
Nov 30, 2015 00:47
|
|
|
paragon1 posted:Awesome, glad to hear it! Praying for me to be somewhere is sorta creepy tbh. But yeah, just pulling my laundry and getting some whiskey.
|
|
#
?
Nov 30, 2015 00:56
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 15, 2024 02:22 |
|
|
paragon1 posted:Qualnor is so legendarily bad that his Helldump thread is the only one I ever sought out. The second post after the OP is something like "this is the most inevitable thread ever." Just a reminder for anyone who wants to come and laugh at libertarians for a while.
|
|
#
?
Nov 30, 2015 01:00
|
|