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Rodyle posted:It was very obviously both. The dude's little sister having a crush on his friend and the parents playing along is completely different from the dude's little sister being actually literally engaged to his superior officer. If it's the first thing, that scene is two close friends joking around. if it's the latter, it's two people discussing an arranged marriage. I wanna be clear, I'm not saying that the arranged marriage plot is bad, or that I am disappointed in the show for doing it. I am disappointed because I liked the scene better when I thought it was about something else. It's purely about my emotions, not about my opinion of the show.
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Nov 29, 2015 22:23
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Tae posted:Not sure what's objectively bad about Naze's crew other than self-loathing anime attitude. If they're secretly slave laborers, then they're evil but we haven't come across that boat yet or ever.  dogsicle posted:this is definitely my favorite episode yet, getting to see a lot of the characters (not just the main cast) move forward/open up in a lot of different ways. Mikazuki taking a shine to kanji and worrying about whether he should've been proactive, Yoruba's crush running into obstacles, Orga being unable to hold his liquor and working through his role as leader, and Ride's cute moment on the cusp of growing up. i'd like to know a bit more about Fumitan though, and Kudelia seems fine but doesn't interest me personally, yet. i hope next week does give Atra (maybe Akihiro too?) some focus because that seems like the biggest problem for her so far, though her thoughts on meat this episode were cute. This episode was all about growing up; Kudelia and Orga having to step up and become leaders, the boys literally climbing the ladder of adulthood lol, but additionally Tekkadan growing as an organization and finding a place where it can flourish -- running around as a solo operation and trying to survive on balls and sheer pride is a childish endeavor, even though joining up with Teiwaz requires compromise (less profit, less renown, probably gonna be used as weapons in the coming war). Lemon Curdistan posted:So yeah, that's another episode where it's heavily hinted that Yamagi has feelings for Norba. Really hope it's not just "I want him to be my brother" stuff.  Being upset about Norba getting laid isn't something I'd chalk up to any sort of brotherly admiration either. I like that it's not being treated as a one-off scene so hopefully he'll be able to get his feelings across 
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Nov 29, 2015 22:40
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motoh posted:Sure only gjallerhorn can make reactors, but can jupiter make the laminate armor that easily? It's the stuff used on ships so presumably they either can, or they have a bunch lying around they can repurpose. They also have actual mobile suit technicians who know how to tune an Ahab reactor.
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Nov 29, 2015 22:43
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Lemon Curdistan posted:It's the stuff used on ships so presumably they either can, or they have a bunch lying around they can repurpose. They also have actual mobile suit technicians who know how to tune an Ahab reactor. Aren't the Ahab reactors used on ships too? I recall there being some technobabble early on about how that explains why they can't use radio to contact the Mars colony. Gjallerhorn trying to monopolize all space travel makes sense too.
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Nov 29, 2015 22:50
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Everything Burrito posted:I feel bad for Yamagi, looks like his crush is pretty one-sided so far And that other kid noticed, so I bet it's gonna come to a head soon.
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Nov 29, 2015 22:58
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They're mafia, they don't exactly need to make their own things.
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Nov 29, 2015 22:58
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Kudelia is finally doing stuff.
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Nov 29, 2015 23:06
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Did they replace Barbato's fuckoff club-spear with a katana? Laaaame
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Nov 29, 2015 23:09
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Clarste posted:I still like the brother's attitude about it. "I feel sorry for you buddy, you'll have to put up with THAT brat." I mean, yeah, child marriages are kind of horrible and everything, but they're reasonably chill about it, as you'd expect from a culture where it's considered appropriate. I got more of a feeling that Gaelio just plain didn't like that McGillis was marrying his sister because of her age full stop, not that he was concerned over her personality.
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Nov 29, 2015 23:14
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boom boom boom posted:I wanna be clear, I'm not saying that the arranged marriage plot is bad, or that I am disappointed in the show for doing it. I am disappointed because I liked the scene better when I thought it was about something else. It's purely about my emotions, not about my opinion of the show. It's not that the previous scene was unclear though, it was clearly serious and I don't really get how thought they were joking.
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Nov 29, 2015 23:34
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Clarste posted:Aren't the Ahab reactors used on ships too? They are. Tekkadan doesn't have someone who really knows how to work them either way, whereas the Jovians do.
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Nov 29, 2015 23:44
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The trick with mobile suits is that they don't appear very hard to make, they're just expensive and rare. The hardest part seems to be generators and the reason Gundams are unique is they have two generators which is either a lost art or so uncommonly difficult that it isn't bothered with.
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Nov 30, 2015 00:11
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Tae posted:McGilli's background having a very regal and high-society type arranged marriage doesn't change anything for his character, so I'm not too bothered. Confirming that confirms he's more of a nepotism guy than a up-and-comer, though he seems to want to make his reputation. I don't think it takes a 'self-loathing anime attitude' to be weirded out by a twenty/thirtysomething guy banging a teenaged subordinate (Lafter's age isn't specified, but she sure looks and acts like a teenager), let alone fifty or so of them. Seriously, the whole setup speaks of a giant imbalance of power that never works out in the real world, and while I acknowledge that this is fiction rather than real life, one of this show's key strengths has been treating strange and unpleasant real-world stuff in a relatively sensitive and realistic manner. I mean, unless you think that it's great for the Tekkadan kids to be child soldiers, or that McGillis will end up having a sweet, feelgood romance with his nine-year-old fiancée. Come to think of it, where would self-loathing even come into this? We don't have a bunch of folks on VEGETA who feel deeply guilty about their dozens-strong criminal enterprises/harems, do we?
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Nov 30, 2015 00:22
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But Orga constantly wants his "family" to have a better life (with being mercs the only viable opportunity so far) and McGillis has narrowed his eyes in frustration everytime the arranged marriage is brought up. That's a clear difference than what's happening with Naze's family who, objectively, are happy. I've seen pretty weird household life in my last job, maybe I don't care as much as long as they got it figured out?
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Nov 30, 2015 00:27
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i don't think Lafter is underage. the main problem with harem chat was/is assuming the worst before the show could make its case.
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Nov 30, 2015 00:30
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scaterry posted:Did they replace Barbato's fuckoff club-spear with a katana?
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Nov 30, 2015 00:31
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Darth Walrus posted:I don't think it takes a 'self-loathing anime attitude' to be weirded out by a twenty/thirtysomething guy banging a teenaged subordinate (Lafter's age isn't specified, but she sure looks and acts like a teenager), let alone fifty or so of them. Seriously, the whole setup speaks of a giant imbalance of power that never works out in the real world, and while I acknowledge that this is fiction rather than real life, one of this show's key strengths has been treating strange and unpleasant real-world stuff in a relatively sensitive and realistic manner. I mean, unless you think that it's great for the Tekkadan kids to be child soldiers, or that McGillis will end up having a sweet, feelgood romance with his nine-year-old fiancée. I don't know what to tell you, dude. Naze and his harem crew have been consistently portrayed about as positively as it's possible for anime characters to be portrayed, and absolutely no downsides or unfortunate side effects of the arrangement have been even hinted at. Naze's women seem to have no problem with him banging the others or even taking care of each others' babies that result from said banging while still having nothing but glowing praise for what a great guy he is. Every one of them that we've seen has been some sort of elite professional(mobile suit pilot or battleship crew) who is so adept that they can run rings around Tekkadan, not meek slave wives. The show has also gone out of its way to portray Naze as a hugely big-hearted guy who cares about family above all else and is willing to put himself out there to save and improve the lives of a bunch of children who he just met. I'm pretty sure the Turbines are meant to be a positive take on a weird family arrangement rather than social commentary, and that reading is backed up by how heavily they harped on the word family and what it means this episode and culminated with Orga swearing blood brothership with Naze in a ceremony. In contrast, Tekkadan being child soldiers is a topic that has been repeatedly shown to be terrible by the show, and neither McGillis nor Gaelio seems happy with the arranged marriage. That's the difference; neither of those issues you compared Naze's situation to have been presented in a positive light.
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Nov 30, 2015 00:33
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I love how the response to the question, "So are they the space mafia or space yakuza?" is apparently "Yes."
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Nov 30, 2015 00:34
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Tae posted:But Orga constantly wants his "family" to have a better life (with being mercs the only viable opportunity so far) and McGillis has narrowed his eyes in frustration everytime the arranged marriage is brought up. That's a clear difference than what's happening with Naze's family who, objectively, are happy. This is true, but we've also seen folks being content with stuff that, to the audience, is clearly hosed up. Like that Tekkadan kid getting hyped about getting another round of life-threatening surgery so he could be a better murder-robot like his hero Mikazuki... or... well, every other sentence out of Mika himself's mouth. Similarly, I'm not sure we were supposed to be completely on board with the Tekkadan party this episode, even if they had a lot of fun with it. This is a kids' show, after all, and I'd be real surprised if they did an unironic 'hey, shonen, getting drunk off your rear end and visiting brothels is great and you should do it' message.
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Nov 30, 2015 00:35
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W.T. Fits posted:I love how the response to the question, "So are they the space mafia or space yakuza?" is apparently "Yes." Welcome to my Japanese-style home, says the fat Italian mafioso wearing a kimono. Would you like a cannoli before the sake-drinking blood brothership ceremony?
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Nov 30, 2015 00:35
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If Lafter is not underage she is written and acts like an underage anime character so it still feels weird. There's not an iota of difference between her and the teenagers we've been introduced to so far. She's probably 18 years old but it's still creepy. That is less a problem with the entire arrangement and more with that specific character but it's still not weird for someone to be uncomfortable about it. It's sort of annoying that "hey, this dude has a harem of wives, at least some of whom appear to be very young if not literally underage, that's kind of weird" is met with "How dare you criticize their relationship, it's shown as being happy" as if being happy is the be-all end-all of the conversation when it comes to anime characters.
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Nov 30, 2015 00:36
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Darth Walrus posted:I don't think it takes a 'self-loathing anime attitude' to be weirded out by a twenty/thirtysomething guy banging a teenaged subordinate (Lafter's age isn't specified, but she sure looks and acts like a teenager), let alone fifty or so of them. Seriously, the whole setup speaks of a giant imbalance of power that never works out in the real world, and while I acknowledge that this is fiction rather than real life, one of this show's key strengths has been treating strange and unpleasant real-world stuff in a relatively sensitive and realistic manner. I mean, unless you think that it's great for the Tekkadan kids to be child soldiers, or that McGillis will end up having a sweet, feelgood romance with his nine-year-old fiancée. To be honest the harem chat is kind of creeping me out explicitly because while it tends to be an awful power balance problem in real life, the show has gone out of its way to show that there doesn't seem to be such a problem here. Characters treat it as if its a bit odd but don't freak out. The wives/women on the ship all seem rather happy and content, Naze is pretty blatantly and repeatedly shown to have great concern for the well-being of his family and shows extreme disgust at finding out what happened with the Tekkadan kids. They're never really sugarcoated anything else on the show, so we really have no reason to assume the worst of the Naze thing. If it is an abusive arrangement the show will show it as such, be it now or at some point in the (near?) future.
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Nov 30, 2015 00:39
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Zebulon posted:To be honest the harem chat is kind of creeping me out explicitly because while it tends to be an awful power balance problem in real life, the show has gone out of its way to show that there doesn't seem to be such a problem here. "The show takes a relationship that is traditionally super-abusive in real life and tries to present is as not a problem" is something that can bother people too. Like if the show made the argument that being a child soldier is great, healthy and happy and that it's the best thing for the Tekkadan, would you say that is a good thing even if they backed it up in-show? I'm getting really tired of goons wringing their hands and going "oh, but, it's not presented as bad in the show so you're not allowed to have feelings on it!" You know what? The Naze thing is loving creepy. It doesn't matter that the show presents it as good. The show is creepy for presenting it as good and the people who try to defend it by comparing it to real-world poly relationships are being really goddamn offensive by pretending that real poly relationships are the same as a mafia don's dozen-strong young woman harem. Like I don't care if you like the dude but stop trying to go "there are real world relationships that are fine" because I drat well can't think of a single case of a dude having 15 wives where it isn't a hosed up tragedy. ImpAtom fucked around with this message at 00:45 on Nov 30, 2015 |
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Nov 30, 2015 00:42
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"Because it's a kids show/anime" is not an actual discussion point (because what exactly is the response to that?), and that's most of the arguments around this. If Naze's family is shown to be more than meets the eye, I'm all for opening that can of worms towards the other direction but if the only repeated constant is "because anime/gundam," that's not much to actually talk about.ImpAtom posted:"The show takes a relationship that is traditionally super-abusive in real life and tries to present is as not a problem" is something that can bother people too. Like if the show made the argument that being a child soldier is great, healthy and happy and that it's the best thing for the Tekkadan, would you say that is a good thing even if they backed it up in-show? I mean if you want to go deep into it, any robot show that has young children killing hundreds, if not thousands of enemies without a hint of PTSD, is also bullshit.
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Nov 30, 2015 00:45
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Zebulon posted:To be honest the harem chat is kind of creeping me out explicitly because while it tends to be an awful power balance problem in real life, the show has gone out of its way to show that there doesn't seem to be such a problem here. Characters treat it as if its a bit odd but don't freak out. The wives/women on the ship all seem rather happy and content, Naze is pretty blatantly and repeatedly shown to have great concern for the well-being of his family and shows extreme disgust at finding out what happened with the Tekkadan kids. I don't think that Naze has to be a bad, manipulative person for the situation to be messed up. Kind of like how Orga is a good, kind, well-meaning kid who's trying to help his friends, but is shackled by his warped cultural context and lack of imagination. They've been pushing the parallels between the Turbines and Tekkadan pretty hard, and in some ways, that makes the Turbines' arrangement more suspect. Lafter, for instance, is just as much of a child soldier as the older Tekkadan kids, and they have a goddamn nursery on a warship. I would be very unsurprised if it turned out that the harem thing was Naze's way of rescuing his girls from worse fates, just like how Orga employed his friends as child soldiers. That still wouldn't make it OK that becoming a gangster's harem was their best/only option.
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Nov 30, 2015 00:48
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Tae posted:I mean if you want to go deep into it, any robot show that has young children killing hundreds, if not thousands of enemies without a hint of PTSD, is also bullshit. Yes, and there's an argument to be made for that for that. Gundam is back and forth on this but at least struggles to present the idea that killing a lot of people is awful and damaging and not a good thing at all. IBO certainly isn't arguing that killing people has been anything but damaging and harmful for Mika even if it is something he has to do. The Naze thing is weird because it is unambiguously positive and being treated as a model for the protagonists to follow (if, uh, not entirely.) Even if the idea is "it's a nonstandard family unit and showing that such a unit can be happy and healthy" it's still weird because the nonstandard unit they're showing is a dude and his literal harem of wives, many of whom appear to be at least near-teenage if not literally teenage. I can understand from a logical perspective what they're going for and still find it creepy and offputting. ImpAtom fucked around with this message at 00:55 on Nov 30, 2015 |
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Nov 30, 2015 00:50
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W.T. Fits posted:I love how the response to the question, "So are they the space mafia or space yakuza?" is apparently "Yes."
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Nov 30, 2015 00:54
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Darth Walrus posted:I don't think that Naze has to be a bad, manipulative person for the situation to be messed up. Kind of like how Orga is a good, kind, well-meaning kid who's trying to help his friends, but is shackled by his warped cultural context and lack of imagination. They've been pushing the parallels between the Turbines and Tekkadan pretty hard, and in some ways, that makes the Turbines' arrangement more suspect. Lafter, for instance, is just as much of a child soldier as the older Tekkadan kids, and they have a goddamn nursery on a warship. We've been shown the Orga/Mika thing is hosed up from the start. We've been shown how hosed up it is for the CGS/Tekkadan kids from the start. Naze's arrangement, while odd (and in real life, traditionally exploitative as hell) is not shown to be hosed up in the same way. Hell, we've also just had two "families" bond together. One full of men/teenaged boys, the other full of varyingly aged women and one dude at the head. These two families just headed out together on a nice, long mission together. This kind of seems like an obvious setup for cross-pollination so to speak. I'd just rather wait for the show to actually SHOW Naze being a creepy gently caress and the harem being a bad setup for the people involved before I start condemning it as such and assume its horribly abusive/exploitative/whatever. It hasn't been shy on showing us other relationships being hosed up or toxic, after all.
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Nov 30, 2015 00:55
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AradoBalanga posted:I would not be surprised if the staff say in a future interview, "We couldn't decide if we wanted mafioso or yakuza for Teiwaz, so we just said 'gently caress it' and went with both." If only one of their suits had an italian name
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Nov 30, 2015 00:56
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The harem thing is weird, but the entire premise of the show is pretty weird too. The moral choice with regards to Tekkadan would be to get all of the children as far away from war as possible, but that's obviously not a story the writers want to tell (yet). Also, I do hope that Tekkadan making deals with a organized crime syndicate eventually bites them in the rear end, cause Teiwaz is probably not all cannolis and Japanese ceremonies. I think my problem is that the show hasn't made any real hints about how messed up some of the scenarios are.
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Nov 30, 2015 00:57
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Nov 30, 2015 00:58
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ImpAtom posted:"The show takes a relationship that is traditionally super-abusive in real life and tries to present is as not a problem" is something that can bother people too. Like if the show made the argument that being a child soldier is great, healthy and happy and that it's the best thing for the Tekkadan, would you say that is a good thing even if they backed it up in-show? The point is that it's kind of a dead end argument in the context of the show besides "Well, there it is, I guess". Nobody said you're not allowed to have feelings about it, but the show is pretty clear on presenting Naze's situation as a positive alternative family setup, and it has been pretty clear about presenting things as positive or negative in the past so I'm pretty sure it's going to stay that way instead of developing. My take on the thing is that I personally find the setup pretty lovely and totally unnecessary for the point they're trying to make with it re: alternative family arrangements. I like the Turbines as characters, though, and I'm mostly impressed they're presenting a bunch of women as hyper-competent professionals and mentor figures for a mostly male crew.
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Nov 30, 2015 00:58
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Is Eugene supposed to be in the closet, or am I totally crazy? I noticed a few episodes ago that one of the blondes was tossed out of a mech by one of the team's burly guys jacking it from him, and he moves away with the startled expression and hand clutched to his chest that I've long identified as the sign of a crush. That was such a minor thing that could be interpreted wrong that I made no mention of it. And now in this episode someone goes on about wanting the girls with the big titties and tries to get Eugene's approval, and he replies, "I'm not interested in girls." It's something that's relatable to almost any closet gay.
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Nov 30, 2015 00:59
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The kids cannot get away from war, because the only other option is to starve on the streets, especially for people like Akiko. Martian kids don't really have many options with a future.Craptacular! posted:And now in this episode someone goes on about wanting the girls with the big titties and tries to get Eugene's approval, and he replies, "I'm not interested in girls." It's something that's relatable to almost any closet gay. Nah, it seems obvious Eugene has a crush on blond pig-tails and is trying to act more like Naze. He's a dumbass on many levels for trying.
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Nov 30, 2015 00:59
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Yeah, that was a teenager pretending to be cool, not a serious disinterest. Edit: That other dude was definitely gay though. He did the "crush" gesture as noted and seemed disappointed that his crush visited a brothel. Clarste fucked around with this message at 01:05 on Nov 30, 2015 |
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Nov 30, 2015 01:02
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Naze's harem and Tekkadan being professional child soldiers both being possibly not 100% awful for those involved reads to me like the show presenting us with a bunch of folks making the best of bad situations. We don't know why exactly all those women decided to marry Naze, but nothing that's been revealed so far makes me think they're under duress so I don't see what a bunch of handwringing about it really accomplishes. LIkewise, Tekkadan is still a bunch of kids who aren't going to stop being soldiers any time soon but they're still using that situation to build themselves a family, a home, and livelihood and their situation isn't providing any alternatives for them to not be soldiers, so they just gotta push forward and do the best they can with what they have. Getting in bed with a huge organized crime family isn't exactly a positive thing either. It's kind of obvious that the world being developed here isn't divided into purely black and white & good and evil, and we as an audience are probably supposed to acknowledge "oh wow that's pretty hosed up" when something arises that's pretty hosed up. It's not like the show is saying any of them are OK for the real world, but this is the reality these characters inhabit and they have to deal with it as best they can.
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Nov 30, 2015 01:04
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Optimus Subprime posted:Also, I do hope that Tekkadan making deals with a organized crime syndicate eventually bites them in the rear end, cause Teiwaz is probably not all cannolis and Japanese ceremonies. McMurdo was pushing Kudelia into accepting Teiwaz' help in exchange for access to Martian resources. They're an organized crime syndicate with legal commercial interests. They treated the Tekkadan kids nicely but they're essentially going to use them as the tip of the lance in their thrust to wrest power away from Gjallarhorn. That they'll probably be better for Mars on the long run doesn't mean that they aren't trying to profit from an upcoming war (same as Nobliss, a guy backing both the independence movement and the repressive enforcers) or that Mars will become the socialist worker's utopia under their economic control. Kudelia did see through this. She just really didn't want to pull the trigger, even though she knew she had to.
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Nov 30, 2015 01:05
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Optimus Subprime posted:The harem thing is weird, but the entire premise of the show is pretty weird too. It totally is but at least it's presented with some ambiguity and struggle. I think I dislike Naze because, at least so far, he's just kind of 'perfect.' He's a member of the terrifying space mafia but he's actually the broest bro to ever bro, offers nothing but good advice, is chill to everyone without any pretensions and has seemingly nothing but good opinions at least in terms of Tekkadan. At the very worst he's taking on Tekkadan to fight a future war which is what literally every character in the show is doing including Kudelia. He's got a wacky harem family but it's okay because there's literally no exploitation or controversy or struggle because he's got the biggest best heart in the entire solar system and nobody minds he's banging his way through literally his entire crew. He's just as close to Unambiguously Good as the setting will allow. I like the Turbines crew in theory but I don't really like Naze much so far and I don't think that'll change. He's just a character that bugs me. Craptacular! posted:Is Eugene supposed to be in the closet, or am I totally crazy? I noticed a few episodes ago that one of the blondes was tossed out of a mech by one of the team's burly guys jacking it from him, and he moves away with the startled expression and hand clutched to his chest that I've long identified as the sign of a crush. That was such a minor thing that could be interpreted wrong that I made no mention of it. It is not the first time he's said something like that but I think it's hard to tell if he's legitimately not interested in women or just being distant and sullen and pretending. It's probably the latter knowing Eugene though. Clarste posted:Edit: That other dude was definitely gay though. He did the "crush" gesture as noted and seemed disappointed that his crush visited a brothel. Yeah, that is 100% a crush.
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Nov 30, 2015 01:06
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ImpAtom posted:It totally is but at least it's presented with some ambiguity and struggle. So basically Mary Sues?
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Nov 30, 2015 01:09
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ImpAtom posted:I think I dislike Naze because, at least so far, he's just kind of 'perfect.' He's a member of the terrifying space mafia but he's actually the broest bro to ever bro, offers nothing but good advice, is chill to everyone without any pretensions and has seemingly nothing but good opinions at least in terms of Tekkadan. At the very worst he's taking on Tekkadan to fight a future war which is what literally every character in the show is doing including Kudelia. He's got a wacky harem family but it's okay because there's literally no exploitation or controversy or struggle because he's got the biggest best heart in the entire solar system and nobody minds he's banging his way through literally his entire crew. He's just as close to Unambiguously Good as the setting will allow. To be fair, he's probably gonna die. And most of his ship too. Not only are they serving in that oh-so-vulnerable mentor role, it'd be a pretty effective way of showing the problems of turning your family into an army of space mercenaries.
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Nov 30, 2015 01:10
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