|
To offer a counter point on degree chat, I do not have a college degree and I have done pretty well in the IT world. I am not saying you should drop out, just offering a different point of view. I left college with about a year and a half left. I was fortunate enough to have a great job offered to me while I was still in college and decided to drop out to pursue it. Shortly thereafter the economy crashed and a lot of people who graduated when I would have could not find jobs, but because I already had one I had my foot in the door. I'm at the point in my career where I do not feel a lack of degree hinders me. I actually do not feel it has affected me yet in my career. It always comes up in an interview, but is never a problem. That bring said, I have never had to get past the HR filter. The 4 jobs I've had since college have all been word of mouth / networking. When I interview candidates for hire, I personally put very little weight into a degree. I care much more for evidence that the person is driven and passionate. So yes, college is important and if at all possible you should get your degree. But make sure you are doing relevant work during that time. And for me, at least so far in my career, dropping out of college was one of the best decisions I've made in my life. Buying a house was one of the worst. Quite the opposite of conventional wisdom at the time. Internet Explorer fucked around with this message at 18:56 on Nov 29, 2015 |
#
?
Nov 29, 2015 18:54
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 27, 2024 19:53 |
|
|
Internet Explorer posted:To offer a counter point on degree chat, I do not have a college degree and I have done pretty well in the IT world. I am not saying you should drop out, just offering a different point of view. I left college with about a year and a half left. I was fortunate enough to have a great job offered to me while I was still in college and decided to drop out to pursue it. Shortly thereafter the economy crashed and a lot of people who graduated when I would have could not find jobs, but because I already had one I had my foot in the door.
|
|
#
?
Nov 29, 2015 18:57
|
|
|
Roargasm posted:I know you're How much would say a full-time term of computer science class cost at a university there? Just so I can get an idea of the difference. It was about $1500-2000 CAD per term by 4th year for me, after increases during my degree. It was pretty easy to get to get student loans and grants from the government and banks, etc.
|
|
#
?
Nov 29, 2015 18:57
|
|
but down here it also shows you likely come from a well to do family, which is a strong predictor of success anyway! No way in hell could I have gotten my BS without help from my family. When you ostensibly have to borrow money for school at 6%+, it's in investment that some people just can't afford
|
CLAM DOWN posted:How much would say a full-time term of computer science class cost at a university there? Just so I can get an idea of the difference. It was about $1500-2000 CAD per term by 4th year for me, after increases during my degree. It was pretty easy to get to get student loans and grants from the government and banks, etc. A full time semester at an average state school would be $6500 for tuition, $600 in books, plus roughly the same amount for room and board if you're not living at home. It's easy to get loans, but they loan you the money at predatory rates like 6-8%. The student loan business owns over one trillion dollars in debt
|
|
#
?
Nov 29, 2015 19:14
|
|
|
Famethrowa posted:Even if my BA is a filthy lib arts degree? It is not necessary (obviously), so if you truly hate school and are going to one that is driving you towards debt slavery its not worth it, but its worth at least thinking about twice: Sirotan posted:Based on studies I've read, you're looking at a potential yearly income gap of $17,500 for someone aged 25-32 today working with a college degree vs only having a high school diploma. Roargasm posted:A full time semester at an average state school would be $6500 for tuition, $600 in books, plus roughly the same amount for room and board if you're not living at home. It's easy to get loans, but they loan you the money at predatory rates like 6-8%. The student loan business owns over one trillion dollars in debt
|
|
#
?
Nov 29, 2015 19:24
|
|
|
You can only get 5500 in loans per semester if you don't have demonstrated financial need. And I don't know what the criteria are, but I was in a single income household, my dad was an electrician, and they expected my parents to be able to contribute 3000 per semester, I didn't qualify for anything. They do have the magnanimity to let your parents take out 5500 in loans too, though. Of course, now that I'm making <40k I can get plenty of grants and need-based loans. Or I could if I qualified.
|
|
#
?
Nov 29, 2015 19:29
|
|
|
22 Eargesplitten posted:You can only get 5500 in loans per semester if you don't have demonstrated financial need. And I don't know what the criteria are, but I was in a single income household, my dad was an electrician, and they expected my parents to be able to contribute 3000 per semester, I didn't qualify for anything. They do have the magnanimity to let your parents take out 5500 in loans too, though.
|
|
#
?
Nov 29, 2015 19:46
|
|
|
Finishing a degree that you've realized isn't terribly interesting where the rubber meets the road demonstrates the ability to follow through on projects even when they aren't personally exciting, and there will be a ton of necessary-but-boring projects to deal with in the work force. The key is to use it as a talking point on what positives you got out of the experience. I got a CS degree and discovered principally that I hate writing code for a living. The student IT work I did at the same time has and had way more relevance and made it relatively easy to get hired in summer 2008, where a ton of much more senior folks were also competing against me; find and work on some of that starter experience to prove you can make poo poo happen and reduce the perceived risk of hiring a fresh-faced graduate.
|
|
#
?
Nov 29, 2015 20:08
|
|
|
Degrees are a lazy way for people who have no business trying to hire people to do an initial screen. That it's a defacto requirement for employment is a symptom of terrible management and hiring processes. People that think it shows some intrinsic ability to get things done or whatever are idiots. Life isn't a loving RPG where getting the 'Degree' attribute grants +2 to intelligence. The only thing it tells you is they might have passable knowledge in their field of study. Proud Christian Mom fucked around with this message at 20:28 on Nov 29, 2015 |
|
#
?
Nov 29, 2015 20:25
|
|
|
go3 posted:Degrees are a lazy way for people who have no business trying to hire people to do an initial screen. That it's a defacto requirement for employment is a symptom of terrible management and hiring processes. As has been clearly outlined here by multiple people, it's a sign of much more than that, and you're being very bitter/angry and wrong.
|
|
#
?
Nov 29, 2015 20:31
|
|
|
CLAM DOWN posted:angry and wrong. This would be a good username.
|
|
#
?
Nov 29, 2015 20:38
|
|
|
keseph posted:Finishing a degree that you've realized isn't terribly interesting where the rubber meets the road demonstrates the ability to follow through on projects even when they aren't personally exciting, and there will be a ton of necessary-but-boring projects to deal with in the work force. The key is to use it as a talking point on what positives you got out of the experience. That's some primo hr bullshit talk yet I fully recognize how accurate that is  I love history, so maybe I'll polish off a history degree at a local adult learner 4 year university (read: D list state school). Just somehow feels like an even bigger waste of money. I dunno. I could stick to my current plan and get my social work bachelors, which I do enjoy, but that is 3 more years of associates and bachelor work. All I know is that anything I do IT wise can be done with independent study. I know a few people who are in the field so I'll get their opinion too. FRINGE posted:The people that have been going to school "off and on" for years will all be over the age where they check parental-anything though. That's my problem with loans, I'm a sad brains whose been doing this school poo poo for too long Famethrowa fucked around with this message at 21:33 on Nov 29, 2015 |
|
#
?
Nov 29, 2015 20:46
|
|
|
It shows that you are willing to put up with a lot of bullshit, which is unironically an important job skill.
|
|
#
?
Nov 29, 2015 20:46
|
|
|
Hi please don't get a history degree.
|
|
#
?
Nov 29, 2015 20:46
|
|
|
CLAM DOWN posted:Yeah, I help recruit and interview quite a few people in my department and having a traditional degree is an enormous key thing, doesn't remotely matter what it's in. Shows research skills, time management, ability to stick to a goal, etc. This argument stops making sense to me when it's a baseline requirement that everyone has.
|
|
#
?
Nov 29, 2015 20:50
|
|
|
Methanar posted:This argument stops making sense to me when it's a baseline requirement that everyone has. Depends on the job and where and what level etc etc? It goes without saying that if I'm looking at two identical resumés but one has a high school diploma and one has a BSc, I'm going to lean towards the one with a degree. There are so many non-academic skills you learn at a university that are extremely valuable in a workplace.
|
|
#
?
Nov 29, 2015 21:02
|
|
|
Dick Trauma posted:Hi please don't get a history degree. If you do get one, at least get it from a fancy school so that you have to explain to every hiring manager why you're working in IT with it.
|
|
#
?
Nov 29, 2015 21:16
|
|
|
I would never say a degree of any sort is a bad thing. You learn how to research better, how to meet deadlines, how to work in a group. The training towards your field sets you up with a better understanding of what is going on and why things are being done the way they are that someone without experience probably won't have. If its programming though, I would suggest working on personal projects either way. Go to codeacademy.com or pick up a book on a common language you want to use, work on an open source project or come up with something on your own. Even just set up a web site and do some custom work on it. All the successful programmers I know had projects they were working on because they enjoyed it long before their career took off. You will have something to show off an interview that will help show you have skills. These days its as simple as setting up a github account, forking some projects and committing fixes or add new features etc.
|
|
#
?
Nov 29, 2015 21:30
|
|
|
Dick Trauma posted:Hi please don't get a history degree. How would getting social work (my current path) be better?
|
|
#
?
Nov 29, 2015 21:35
|
|
|
I wish I had a bachelors degree. FAFSA has some annoying cracks that I managed to slip through that prevented me from getting any financial aid until I no longer have to provide parental tax info (next year finally!) so I just managed to get an associates on my own dime. I make pretty good money for someone my age, but nothing extraordinary. I could probably get a better job of I had a better degree. Conversely, my boss had no degree and a 6 figure income so ymmv
|
|
#
?
Nov 29, 2015 22:13
|
|
|
In my opinion IT is mostly a trade, much like plumbing. And similar to plumbing, I hire my plumbers based on whether they have the necessary credentials (not an unrelated 4-year degree), skills, and experience to do the job. The last thing I want to do is pay one plumber more than the other because he can wax philosophical about the impact of the Øresundstolden on post-liberation Sweden or what the hell ever and thus feels like he deserves more than the other guy with the exact same skill set. If he can't "demonstrate commitment to long term projects" or whatever a 4 year degree is supposed to represent then I'll just fire him and hire someone who can  In IT a 4-year degree is useful for getting past silly HR hurdles and not a terrible lot more unless you did something computer-related or maths-y. Edit: I have three (soon to be four!) degrees, so it's not like I'm raging against degree-havers or anything here. Sheep fucked around with this message at 23:19 on Nov 29, 2015 |
|
#
?
Nov 29, 2015 23:14
|
|
|
In fairness, "IT" is also a pretty loving huge umbrella term/job discipline ranging from drooling printer repairman to advanced senior network architect.
|
|
#
?
Nov 29, 2015 23:19
|
|
|
Famethrowa posted:My math skills are basically at a precalculus level, and I don't have the best understanding of code, but dammit I want to learn. I have some pretty decent knowledge of computers, but not nearly as much as people think I do
|
|
#
?
Nov 30, 2015 00:21
|
|
|
Sheep posted:In my opinion IT is mostly a trade, much like plumbing. And similar to plumbing, I hire my plumbers based on whether they have the necessary credentials (not an unrelated 4-year degree), skills, and experience to do the job. The In my opinion there are still too many people who do the trade qualifications boot camp style (cert 3 or 4, vendor certs) who learn what buttons to press but have no idea on why. A degree indicates a better understanding on when and how to ask why. Once you have experience how you got your start (trade school, university, nepotism) becomes irrelevant. from then on it is all about runs on the board. On that. Nepotism is still the best way to get a foot in the door.
|
|
#
?
Nov 30, 2015 00:46
|
|
|
keseph posted:work on [something] to reduce the perceived risk of hiring a fresh-faced graduate. Just gonna emphasize this last bit here. It doesn't so much matter what the something is: A degree, an OSS project, volunteering to do IT at a charity, whatever. Find a thing that you can use to distinguish yourself from a literal blank robot, do it, and be prepared to brag about it in the resume and interview. It doesn't really even have to truly relevant to your target job, the hiring manager just needs to think (or be convinced) it is and we've all seen many anecdotes of stupid managers.
|
|
#
?
Nov 30, 2015 00:49
|
|
|
Bob Morales posted:Do you live somewhere that has 'coding bootcamps'? Oh yeah. My dilemma is the foot in the door situation. Do I finish an ultimately useless degree (as social work tends to be without a masters degree) that according to some accounts might hurt my chances and others say it will help or so I say gently caress it, let 46 hours and thousands of dollars go to waste, get A+ certified, do some coding bootcamp, and see where I can go from there. I haven't even started and I feel paralyzed  I better just talk to a counseler and my contacts in the field.
|
|
#
?
Nov 30, 2015 01:17
|
|
|
If you've already started your degree, unless there's some exigent circumstance like your girlfriend is unexpectedly pregnant and cruising through college in a typically low paying field then you might want to change things up. Otherwise, if you're already half-way through you might as just well finish. Employers might be stupid with degree requirements but that's their decision and being employed is pretty damned important. Having a degree isn't require for life but a lot of things aren't really required like bathing on a regular basis. Sure, you'll get by without it but it makes life a hell of a lot easier and pleasant. Gucci Loafers fucked around with this message at 01:28 on Nov 30, 2015 |
|
#
?
Nov 30, 2015 01:25
|
|
|
Tab8715 posted:If you've already started your degree, unless there's some exigent circumstance like your girlfriend is unexpectedly pregnant and cruising through college in a typically low paying field then you might want to change things up. My problem is I'm getting old. I've a forever student right now, I've been in college for 6 years with 3 years to show for it. I don't want to keep forcing my parents to fund something that I haven't been able to make happen, and soon I will need my own health insurance. Not to be all  but I'm trying to be realistic and need to start my independent career sooner rather then later.I realize I probably sound obstinate and set in my ways, but I'm serious in taking all this advice in. I have a lot of decisions to make and my mind is not quite set. I'll stop monopolizing the thread for now. I seriously appreciate the reams of advice, I just need to get my rear end in gear in one direction or another.
|
|
#
?
Nov 30, 2015 01:34
|
|
|
Famethrowa posted:My problem is I'm getting old. I've a forever student right now, I've been in college for 6 years with 3 years to show for it. As a person who took 13 years to get a 3 year degree, I completely understand where you're coming from BUT if you are 3 years into a 4 year degree then you should buckle down and get it finished. For me a couple things that helped were that a full course load didn't work for me, and that simply attending every class made things immeasurably easier. Hardest thing for me was lying that everything was fine when I was failing things really badly.
|
|
#
?
Nov 30, 2015 01:49
|
|
|
mewse posted:As a person who took 13 years to get a 3 year degree, I completely understand where you're coming from BUT if you are 3 years into a 4 year degree then you should buckle down and get it finished. For me a couple things that helped were that a full course load didn't work for me, and that simply attending every class made things immeasurably easier. Hardest thing for me was lying that everything was fine when I was failing things really badly. Holy poo poo that is me. Honestly makes me feel way better. Hopefully knowing that makes it better. gently caress sadbrains 
|
|
#
?
Nov 30, 2015 01:51
|
|
|
Famethrowa posted:My problem is I'm getting old. How old are you?
|
|
#
?
Nov 30, 2015 02:37
|
|
|
You're never too old to change paths into something you'd rather be doing. It's cliché as gently caress but you only live once, don't be unhappy.
|
|
#
?
Nov 30, 2015 02:42
|
|
|
Dick Trauma posted:How old are you? 24. Yes, I know that's young, but I feel a burning need to get out from parental dependence. Maybe that's my own personal issue, but I can't handle being a goony goon in their parents basement. edit: gently caress, maybe I should be in e/n the way this topic is heading heh.
|
|
#
?
Nov 30, 2015 02:45
|
|
|
CLAM DOWN posted:You're never too old to change paths into something you'd rather be doing. It's cliché as gently caress but you only live once, don't be unhappy. This is true as well, university was the most miserable time of my life and I might be better off if I had skipped it entirely. E: e/n is garbage mewse fucked around with this message at 02:56 on Nov 30, 2015 |
|
#
?
Nov 30, 2015 02:48
|
|
|
Famethrowa posted:24. You are young but your heart's in the right place. It's appropriate for you to want to make your own way and you're giving it more thought than I did at your age.
|
|
#
?
Nov 30, 2015 03:10
|
|
|
Famethrowa posted:Oh yeah. My dilemma is the foot in the door situation. Do I finish an ultimately useless degree (as social work tends to be without a masters degree) that according to some accounts might hurt my chances and others say it will help or so I say gently caress it, let 46 hours and thousands of dollars go to waste, get A+ certified, do some coding bootcamp, and see where I can go from there. I was in a really similar situation and decided to get the A+ to back my psych BS. I got a temp job in desktop support a week after I finished the A+ and it's been smooth sailing on my end since then fwiw. IT rocks, but unfortunately A+/entry level desktop support work isn't going to give you the opportunity to do much meaningful scripting. There's so much to learn that you can always move quickly to specialized areas if you're focused, though
|
|
#
?
Nov 30, 2015 04:27
|
|
|
I didn't even start my bachelor's until I was 24 and had already blown my college savings on stupid classes at an overpriced state school. Hell I'm 33 now and I'm still in higher education, though I have gotten a few degrees in the interim. You're never too old to get a degree, but doing it for the right reasons is very important. Sheep fucked around with this message at 04:43 on Nov 30, 2015 |
|
#
?
Nov 30, 2015 04:40
|
|
|
Yeah I had to wait to go back to college until my 25th birthday for the same reason as you Famethrowa. And it took me 5 years to finish, but I'm glad I did. And it's true, you don't need a degree to be in IT, but for me, I knew I wanted to move to management at some point, and a degree is helpful there. For that matter, I'm working on my MBA now.
|
|
#
?
Nov 30, 2015 04:56
|
|
|
Famethrowa posted:24. This just means your parents did at least a sorta good job raising you. You SHOULD want to be making it on your own by now, but you should also be able to recognize whether you can. Start applying for job that you want, and see what happens. If you have the aptitude, you can probably land an entry level IT type job as it stands, and a degree will make little difference. Listen to what the recruiters/interviewers have to tell you, and then make your plans from there.
|
|
#
?
Nov 30, 2015 08:06
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 27, 2024 19:53 |
|
|
What's the most 'Cave Troll / No Human Contact' area in all IT?
|
|
#
?
Nov 30, 2015 13:57
|
|