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Khizan posted:White Night is one of the more polarizing books in the series. It seems like most of the readers either hate it or love it. I wouldn't say I hate White Night so much as it's my least favorite of the post-Grave Peril books. It's still a good book, it's just kind of forgettable to me.
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Nov 27, 2015 14:09
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So I just finished the first book, not really knowing anything about the series. Basically just went from cover to cover in around three and a half hours. It was okay, though not great. Spoilers for book 1 ahead. I thought the more tense scenes were pretty good, like his encounter with the vampire and the toad demon coming to his apartment. The thought that Victor might be the killer certainly occurred to me early on, as Monica did mention him becoming interested in magic, and it isn't like I know of a lot of other magic users at this point. Likewise, the Becketts kind of sent up huge red flags as soon I read about them. I felt like Victor lacked a particularly compelling motivation for his actions. "Evil guy wants power" is a bit two dimensional. I would have liked to see him fleshed out a bit more. Dresden himself does seem a bit neckbeardy in the way he acts. Namely the way he deals with women, and how he describes his potion hobby as being similar to hacking. Not a big problem with me, but just an observation. The book did seem like it had some good hooks left open for future novels. Dresden did mention his mother and father a bit, and it definitely seems like there is story there to be plumbed. Likewise, I still don't feel like I know much of anything about the white council, and I feel like that would be interesting. Overall, while I didn't think it was amazing, the promise that the books get better is probably enough to push me to keep reading. Filthy Monkey fucked around with this message at 06:18 on Nov 29, 2015 |
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Nov 29, 2015 06:13
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Dresden is a huge goon, and it gets a bit better but doesnt go away entirely. Also books one and two are easily the worst in the series, so if you liked the first you'll love 3+ AllTerrineVehicle fucked around with this message at 08:15 on Nov 29, 2015 |
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Nov 29, 2015 07:53
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The first book in particular he is still trying hard to channel the 1940's detective noir fiction style, that a good deal of inspiration comes from for Harry as a character. It never entirely goes away, partly because it makes a convenient plot device to get Harry in trouble through his "chivalric" attitudes to women. Interestingly, he does get a lot better about it, and most importantly he stops mentioning it at every opportunity which got pretty old fast, once he develops some healthy relationships with women through out the series. Which in a way kind of makes sense when you realise that pretty much every women in his life had betrayed or left him at that point in the series. Even his girlfriend, Susan, he couldn't be sure how much the relationship was just a means to get stories, and the other woman in his life, Murphy continued to distrust him at every opportunity. Anyway, first two books are enjoyable enough, but are easily the weakest, where it's still finding it's stride.
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Nov 29, 2015 08:56
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I always confuse White Night with Blood Rites. More than Storm Front or Full Moon, I really wish I had skipped that one. It's too bad that some of the best moments of set-up are stuck in there. I get not loving White Night, but personally it felt like one of the cleverer overall plots with a more desperate climax than most.
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Nov 29, 2015 08:57
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The first book is the worst so if you buy in from there you are set.
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Nov 29, 2015 09:14
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Shanakin posted:Which in a way kind of makes sense when you realise that pretty much every women in his life had betrayed or left him at that point in the series. Even his girlfriend, Susan, he couldn't be sure how much the relationship was just a means to get stories, and the other woman in his life, Murphy continued to distrust him at every opportunity. Another thing you have to consider with Harry is that he can't use computers or cell phones. He can't watch TV or go to the movies. Modern cars go haywire around him. He can't make eye contact with people. He can't even own a coffee maker. And he doesn't have a 'rational' explanation for any of that stuff. Dude has a hard time meeting normal people, is what I'm saying. And on the spooky side of things, well. He's under the Doom of Damocles for breaking one of the Laws of Magic, so that kind of rules out the White Council, and basically everybody else on that side of things is literally inhuman. It's not like he really gets a lot of socialization.
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Nov 29, 2015 10:04
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I'm outright amazed at how little it's pointed how wizards throughout DF History have been afflicted and othered from Humanity. They also don't speculate that this may have something to do with children of the information age lashing out and pursuing Black Magic.
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Nov 29, 2015 13:46
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On the other hand, I suspect acne and curdling milk was a lot less socially isolating and easy to wave away, particularly in teenagers most vulnerable as they discover and experiment with their powers, than exploding electronics all around you, not being able to use phones, computers, social networking etc.
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Nov 29, 2015 14:54
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For the first couple books in the series, it's important to remember that Butcher wrote them as a way to prove to his writing teacher that the methods she was teaching would make an absolutely terrible story, and that instead she told him it was publishable. Once he gets into his game and gets some experience, that's when the series goes from mediocre to good/great. I definitely think Fool Moon is the worst in the series, but book three is where it gets much, much better on all accounts, and the main plots of the series start going - just about anything of later significance from books one and two (beyond character introductions) seems almost retconned in, rather than planned, so there's this huge disconnect between one and two vs. the rest of the series in quality and tone.
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Nov 29, 2015 18:37
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OneTwentySix posted:For the first couple books in the series, it's important to remember that Butcher wrote them as a way to prove to his writing teacher that the methods she was teaching would make an absolutely terrible story, and that instead she told him it was publishable. Once he gets into his game and gets some experience, that's when the series goes from mediocre to good/great.
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Nov 30, 2015 01:28
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bowmore posted:And yet he still hasn't done a revised edition of the first 2 books. I'd much rather be getting new continuations of the story rather than rehashes of stuff we already have.
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Nov 30, 2015 01:35
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jivjov posted:I'd much rather be getting new continuations of the story rather than rehashes of stuff we already have.
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Nov 30, 2015 01:38
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bowmore posted:I meant for new readers Because that would still take a pretty inordinate amount of time and would probably make about zero dollars. And it would push back his work on all the new books he's writing since he is back to two series.
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Nov 30, 2015 01:44
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bowmore posted:I meant for new readers And I meant in terms of where I'd prefer to see Jim's effort going. Yeah, cleaned up versions of the first couple books would be awesome...but that would involve him working on those rather than working on new material. (I mean...I'd totally buy Storm Front-redux, don't get me wrong...but it wouldn't be my preference.)
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Nov 30, 2015 01:47
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The first two books were redone as comics and didn't have a lot of the squick factor.
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Nov 30, 2015 03:20
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My wife and I drove from Ottawa to Raleigh and back for American Thanksgiving, and we got through White Night, Small Favor, and partway into Turn Coat as audiobooks while driving. I've only read the paperbacks once, and it's neat listening to it for my second trip through because I catch all the little bits Butcher left for himself to follow up on. Listening to three books in a row like that did make the repetitive descriptions kinda drag, but I do understand why he does it.
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Nov 30, 2015 17:19
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I feel like the 'wizards can't use technology' crutch is one writers are going to have a harder and harder time justify in books simply because it becomes increasingly implausible with each passing year. I won't really be sorry to see it go because it's a drat lazy crutch as is.
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Nov 30, 2015 17:24
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ImpAtom posted:I feel like the 'wizards can't use technology' crutch is one writers are going to have a harder and harder time justify in books simply because it becomes increasingly implausible with each passing year. I won't really be sorry to see it go because it's a drat lazy crutch as is. Magic by its very definition is implausible so I don't see this ever becoming an issue.
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Nov 30, 2015 17:28
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ImpAtom posted:I feel like the 'wizards can't use technology' crutch is one writers are going to have a harder and harder time justify in books simply because it becomes increasingly implausible with each passing year. I won't really be sorry to see it go because it's a drat lazy crutch as is. I've always been a fan of the Harry Potter approach; where it's not that wizards can't use tech; its that they're 1) so insular and 2) so proud and confidant of magic that they just never bother to learn how.
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Nov 30, 2015 17:29
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Surely wizards could throw together some kind of off-the-wall arcane super-tech to compensate? Like, if they can't use regular computers, so they could build their own computers which rely on glass tubes full of ants or something.
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Nov 30, 2015 17:51
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They do. That's what Bob is.
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Nov 30, 2015 18:03
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ImpAtom posted:I feel like the 'wizards can't use technology' crutch is one writers are going to have a harder and harder time justify in books simply because it becomes increasingly implausible with each passing year. I won't really be sorry to see it go because it's a drat lazy crutch as is. In the latest RPG supplement, Butcher established that Harry is literally the worst wizard with technology on record. In the books themselves, I think there was a warden candidate who hooked up her magic items to a wall socket.
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Nov 30, 2015 18:06
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Tunicate posted:In the latest RPG supplement, Butcher established that Harry is literally the worst wizard with technology on record. Elaine plugged her elec-trick chain into a wall socket to charge it.
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Nov 30, 2015 18:08
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bowmore posted:The first book is the worst so if you buy in from there you are set. Nah, book 2 is the worst book. By far. That's why a lot of people recommend skipping book 2 if you weren't completely sold on book 1. Wheat Loaf posted:Like, if they can't use regular computers, so they could build their own computers which rely on glass tubes full of ants or something. I would read the gently caress out of this. The idea of an urban fantasy story where wizards not only can use tech, but are much stronger for it was intriguing. I was really sad when I tried reading The Atrocity Archives and loving hated it. It felt like it was all just jargon-jumbling, name-dropping nonsense. It was all, 'Oh, of course it was because of Turing's Third Theorem on Occult Capacitors, why didn't I think of that?'  The Long Way Down was gold, though. I need to read more Faust. Blasphemeral fucked around with this message at 18:23 on Nov 30, 2015 |
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Nov 30, 2015 18:12
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I like how Night Watch handles it actually. Wizards have no problems at all with technology and can take full advantage of it, but as they get older and higher in power they see less and less reason to keep track of it because they can do so much with magic. It actually leaves them ill-prepared for when technology does something they don't know much about but it's entirely because of ignorance and age, not because magic is speshul and makes things explode. Blasphemeral posted:It felt like it was all just jargon-jumbling, name-dropping nonsense. I really don't get this at all. Aside from some things which are setting-based it wasn't really jargon-y. It all seemed pretty straightforward to me. There's some excess tech support nerd fluff but that doesn't have much to do with the magic.
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Nov 30, 2015 18:19
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ImpAtom posted:I really don't get this at all. Aside from some things which are setting-based it wasn't really jargon-y. It all seemed pretty straightforward to me. There's some excess tech support nerd fluff but that doesn't have much to do with the magic. I know it's a golden child here in the thread, and if I also didn't like the other stuff that has been recommended I wouldn't mention it, but it's the odd-book out for me. Nearly everything that people are raving about in here has been good so far, but that book... I pushed most of the way through by thinking, "Maybe I'm just being too hard on it. Maybe it's because I'm an expert in this field and the writer isn't," and eventually decided "nope; he is too and it's just bad." Maybe I'll get my copy back from the buddy I gave it to and quote one of the especially offending passages.
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Nov 30, 2015 18:28
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At least in the Rivers of London books you can avoid damaging technology by disconnecting it from a power source (powered technology has the critical components turn into sand when Magic is used near the given piece of technology for some reason not yet explained). So the protagonists can use cell phones by rigging up a power cutting switch on the battery they can quickly throw as poo poo is hitting the fan to protect their stuff, or turn off prior to going into an area they think they'll need to use magic. Also one of them rigged up a bunch of battery-powered lights to use to fuel some low-grade continuous magic instead of using their own store of energy for it (due to a mechanic where using too much magic at once will literally destroy the brain of the user if there are no other sources of energy nearby to use).
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Nov 30, 2015 18:35
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I know what he means, there's a lot of  in Atrocity Archives. I still enjoyed it, but a lot of the words in that book are incomprehensible nonsense that's there to convey that the protagonist is super-smart.
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Nov 30, 2015 18:35
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Tunicate posted:In the latest RPG supplement, Butcher established that Harry is literally the worst wizard with technology on record. Sometimes Harry comes across as the grumpy grandmother who refuses to learn how to program the vcr.
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Nov 30, 2015 18:41
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It'll be interesting to see if Harry's position as Winter Knight will lead to him being able to use tech more easily. And freak him out. I could totally see Butcher using that as a source of angst and a way to let Harry actually interact more with the modern world.
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Nov 30, 2015 18:59
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Gilok posted:I know what he means, there's a lot of When I read it, all I got was the impression that the author wanted to make me seem like he and his protagonist were really smart because he comments on Slashdot and wrote a bash script, once. gently caress that poo poo.
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Nov 30, 2015 19:03
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Slanderer posted:When I read it, all I got was the impression that the author wanted to make me seem like he and his protagonist were really smart because he comments on Slashdot and wrote a bash script, once. gently caress that poo poo. I really don't get how people read any urban fantasy books then considering half of them represent people who are supposed to be very smart because they have a 10th graders knowledge of science and math. At least Harry Dresden is explicit supposed to be kind of dumb. (Except for when he's actually kind of scary-smart about very specific subject matter that happens to make magic feel more complex.) I admit that i have a bugbear for people who get really angry at this kind of stuff but steadfastly ignore every single legal system or police officer being written so far from reality that it is less plausible than literal magic-slinging wizards. Harry Dresden not being bankrupt and in jail is actually less plausible than Harry Dresen conjuring fire out of nowhere.
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Nov 30, 2015 19:07
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Gilok posted:I know what he means, there's a lot of
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Nov 30, 2015 19:08
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Slanderer posted:
I'm glad I'm not alone in this.   
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Nov 30, 2015 19:09
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There are super magic computers in the dresdenverse. Donar Vadderung has one & Harry asked if he wanted to turn it off before he got any closer so it wouldnt fry. Donar just laughed at him.
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Nov 30, 2015 19:11
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ImpAtom posted:I really don't get how people read any urban fantasy books then considering half of them represent people who are supposed to be very smart because they have a 10th graders knowledge of science and math. At least Harry Dresden is explicit supposed to be kind of dumb. (Except for when he's actually kind of scary-smart about very specific subject matter that happens to make magic feel more complex.) I have no loving clue what this post is getting at. Anyway, Charles Stross is a probably a dweeb who considered himself a Tech Savant for installing Linux back in the early 2000s when he wrote the Atrocity Archives, and it bleeds through to his writing in the book. I can honestly imagine him writing it in Vim in his cubicle at work, ignoring whatever computer janitorial duties he was employed to do. EDIT: haha I was totally right. From wikipedia: quote:Between 1994 and 2004, he was also an active writer for the magazine Computer Shopper and was responsible for the monthly Linux column. 
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Nov 30, 2015 19:15
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OneTwentySix posted:For the first couple books in the series, it's important to remember that Butcher wrote them as a way to prove to his writing teacher that the methods she was teaching would make an absolutely terrible story, and that instead she told him it was publishable. Wait, what's this part? Has he written about this someone? What methods was she teaching that he worked into the book?
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Nov 30, 2015 19:27
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thrawn527 posted:Wait, what's this part? Has he written about this someone? What methods was she teaching that he worked into the book? I think it's from this interview. Also, lol @ the origin of Bob: quote:Bob the Skull came about in the same way. In fact, he’s something of an in-joke for the writers in the program at OU. Debbie Chester, my writing teacher, often warned us about producing an old and worn-out trope for our stories, called ‘talking heads’. Talking heads are characters with no real purpose in the story other than to show up and explain something so that the reader can get what’s going on. I knew that I was going to need a character who could explain things about magic to Harry (and through him to the reader) so that the magic ‘rules’ would hold together and make sense. So just to be a smart-alec to my teacher, I made a literal ‘talking head’ for Harry, who gets to serve as an advisor, a information source and an annoyance--I can’t plan a character, these days, without figuring out how it’s going to drive Harry nuts. EDIT: oh for fucks sake quote:The book was then called "The Dresden Chronicles, Book One: Semiautomagic."
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Nov 30, 2015 19:48
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Slanderer posted:I have no loving clue what this post is getting at. His knowledge back then goes a bit deeper than that, he was part of a start-up programming payment back ends back when that stuff was still pretty arcane poo poo.
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Nov 30, 2015 20:04
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