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I get the impression that some posters think that is his thematic purpose.
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Dec 1, 2015 02:49
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zoux posted:No one is denying he's a fully realized character but discussion of his thematic purpose isn't gleefully sticking it to MRAs. What about that "if you hold any sympathy for this character you're supporting toxic masculinity" stuff that started this whole thread? And got me called a white dude? Like the person saying "he's not actually Hitler" isn't talking out of nowhere. mycot fucked around with this message at 03:05 on Dec 1, 2015 |
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Dec 1, 2015 02:53
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The Sharmat posted:I get the impression that some posters think that is his thematic purpose. I mean, characters can both be fully realized character AND serve a very blatant thematic purpose in the story.
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Dec 1, 2015 02:55
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I just wanna throw in that yeah I was totally sympathetic to the fact that Simpson was also mindraped by Kilgrave. And I still think he was wrong for his machismo violence plots that ignore genuine resolution in favor of "Kill the bad guy" mentality. Edit: Gonna watch some Episode 8 i think.
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Dec 1, 2015 02:55
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Lupus Rufus posted:I just wanna throw in that yeah I was totally sympathetic to the fact that Simpson was also mindraped by Kilgrave. And I still think he was wrong for his machismo violence plots that ignore genuine resolution in favor of "Kill the bad guy" mentality. Yeah its another case of how the abused becomes the abuser. And who knows? He was probably abused in the military program. There had to be a reason he quit in the first place. When the IGH crew came to pick him up I felt dread for sure.
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Dec 1, 2015 03:04
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Snak posted:I mean, characters can both be fully realized character AND serve a very blatant thematic purpose in the story. Yes. That's not his thematic purpose though. He, like every other supporting character, just shows a different potential reaction to abuse. Lupus Rufus posted:I just wanna throw in that yeah I was totally sympathetic to the fact that Simpson was also mindraped by Kilgrave. And I still think he was wrong for his machismo violence plots that ignore genuine resolution in favor of "Kill the bad guy" mentality. He was, for sure.
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Dec 1, 2015 03:11
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mycot posted:And got me called a white dude? Truly this kind of slander is over the line.
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Dec 1, 2015 03:14
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mycot posted:What about that "if you hold any sympathy for this character you're supporting toxic masculinity" stuff that started this whole thread? And got me called a white dude? Like the person saying "he's not actually Hitler" isn't talking out of nowhere. None of those things happened.
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Dec 1, 2015 03:15
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I remember a couple of those things happening.
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Dec 1, 2015 03:20
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zoux posted:None of those things happened. It did though. Like I don't know what else I can do since that's what literally happened.
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Dec 1, 2015 03:21
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mycot posted:It did though, I'm quoting here. If it helps, I believe the toxic masculinity quote was one of those "joke" things you hear about sometimes. (at the very least, intentionally facetious)
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Dec 1, 2015 03:22
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XboxPants posted:If it helps, I believe the toxic masculinity quote was one of those "joke" things you hear about sometimes. (at the very least, intentionally facetious) Both things were jokes. I haven't seen the literally Hitler thing though.
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Dec 1, 2015 03:24
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XboxPants posted:If it helps, I believe the toxic masculinity quote was one of those "joke" things you hear about sometimes. The original toxic masculinity comment didn't really feel like a joke (it seemed like a sincere attempt at pulling a "well maybe that says something about YOU"), and neither did the one saying I had backwards worldviews about violence and women. But, like, you're already making fun of me so I don't think I can do anything more. mycot fucked around with this message at 03:35 on Dec 1, 2015 |
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Dec 1, 2015 03:24
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polish sausage posted:It would be better than you casting your judgement on the writing of a character whose scenes you admitted to fast forwarding through, yeah. WhenI'm less drunk I will but this made me laugh, you're taking this quite seriously aren't you.
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Dec 1, 2015 03:32
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mycot posted:The original toxic masculinity comment didn't really feel like a joke, and neither did the one saying I had backwards worldviews about violence and women. But, like, you're already making fun of me so I don't think I can do anything more other than claim I have heard of the concept of jokes before. Point taken, I'll ratchet it back. I'm not sure what all else was a joke, and it sucks that someone assumed you (or whoever it was, I often ignore usernames) was a white dude (honestly I'm glad if the forum has diversified because there was a time when it truly WAS almost entirely white guys), and we could dig into these issues if you like, but at some point we're not even discussing the show anymore and just having a discussion of forum politics.
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Dec 1, 2015 03:35
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Mods please change the thread title to "Toxic Masculinity Megathread" tia
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Dec 1, 2015 03:44
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XboxPants posted:Point taken, I'll ratchet it back. I'm not sure what all else was a joke, and it sucks that someone assumed you (or whoever it was, I often ignore usernames) was a white dude (honestly I'm glad if the forum has diversified because there was a time when it truly WAS almost entirely white guys), and we could dig into these issues if you like, but at some point we're not even discussing the show anymore and just having a discussion of forum politics. Bleh I really didn't want to bring up my gender in posting (like you I remember it having really bad stigma against it) but I got tired of the "if you were a WOMAN you would think differently".
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Dec 1, 2015 03:48
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God, knowing she's immune to Kilgrave after the effect really makes this episode stand out in terms of Wow. Episode 8: Kilgrave being a creepy nice guy: "I knew it wasn't out of love. I'm not delusional. Just optimistic." "You really want me to choose? I choose that you don't touch me--" "OH, PLEASE!" "--EVER!" "I promise I won't touch you until I get your genuine consent." For me, that "until" is so loaded. because it presumes he WILL get her consent. He presumes so much to be welcome everywhere he goes. OMG! So Kilgrave... you really do almost feel sympathy for him, in these moments where it feels like he might be sincere for a moment. But watch Jessica's face, scowling as she says "home"--it is such a ridiculous gesture of "generosity" and "kindness"-- letting someone walk through their childhood home perfectly recreated (come on, how many of you goons don't dream of poo poo like that)--if not for the ridiculous amount of effort he went thru to do it, and how he feels that somehow entitles him to presence in Jessica's memories. Honestly, everytime Kilgrave is silent, it seems like she's in tune with her space. But his voice keeps interrupting her. She's got her calm in this space EVerything Kilgrave says, can be mistaken as "kindness", if you completely ignore Jessica's body language. That every time Kilgrave compels her to do something in this mockery of her childhood, she just.. can't even. Another realization: all of Kilgrave's "training" on people not resistant to his controls, like the dude he bought the house from, was basically only to convince Jessica he could still control her but chooses not to. She's tense. And he's taking advantage of that state to try to convince her to see his side. He phrases everything so carefully to Jessica. And I love that she just completely shuts him down at every turn. It's perfect. He responded to Trish's call with "It's Patsy!"--something he probably knows BOTH Trish and Jessica hate. (remember the last time we weird that was Mr. Remote Control Masturbator in the flashback last episode?) Of course he gives her a purple dress. He's like Frieza: he wants everyone to dress like he does . (if you've been following Dragonball Super spoiler) Kilgrave has all the power here and he STILL feels threatened and chooses to take it out on Jessica. He claims he's not using her powers on her, but arguably, torturing her with other people until she does what you want is still controlling her. I love how "humor" in this show is actually just horror.Also, I love how Jessica apologizes to all of Kilgrave's victims. Like, she really does feel like she has to reduce the collateral damage of his ways. Kilgrave thinks he's her captor (despite denying it). But like... despite all these horrible machinations, and despite the fact that, yes, he is a sad victim with a lovely family, (and I'm glad this is acknowledged), he's still choosing to torment literally the one person in the world who won't do as he says. Okay but then when Simpson confronts her... I love that she says "I'm not under his control" just to get him off her back. She's not even confident in that yet, tho. Still, Simpson always gettin in the way. Love how she just completely outstrengths him at every turn. She then took Simpson's phone. Smart. "that someone got past your security team" *jessica in background turning on phone recording* "You murdered her" "I never killed anyone!" "You use your powers to compel murder" "Eh, tomato to-mato" He loving acknowledges that nature of his "controls", that harassment itself is a form of control over a person. Be it through mind virus or super creepy stalking. "I have a conscience, it's just... more selective" hahahahahahahaha lol, then that's not a conscience you jerk. OMG Simpson trying to mess with Jessica and Trish's relationship. He "sees this now"--whoah, like, maybe we could just run away together and bug out, and Jessica can handle Kilgrave by herself"--is just an excuse to literally "settle" down. "BEcause there's us, and there's them, and that's okay! That just means we can't always help--YOU can't always help"--that's the invasive speech, right there at the end. She's playing therapist to Kilgrave. I love it.And then... "I would love to hear about My Little Jessie" ewwwwwww.... And then the neighbor saying they "fought like cats and dogs". I love that they kept that away from their kids, evidenced by Jessica's surprise at hearing that. I love that.But "everybody's got their troubles". I like Mrs. De Luca. "Oh, there's that sharp wit!" she thinks Jessica's trying to be funny. "It makes me feel important." "Isn't that a lovely thing to do?" says her. I love how she starts to take control of the situation. I really do. Forget magica psychic brain cells (but "you violated every cell of my body" is kind of accurate considering that nature of allostatic load on DNA) OMG, he loved the "genuine awe and gratitude--FOR ME!" lol. Of course Alva and Laurent both hurriedly get up when they get back. I wonder if they were talking to each other, like, "who the hell is this guy??? Why do we do the bullshit he does? Are we really gonna tear our faces off after two hours??" then in he walks, "I WANT CAKE!" Jesus. He wants to be king of an abode. It ain't your home, it's Jessica's, no matter how much money you put into recreating it. There's a reason--not just associations in the house itself--that Jessica thinks back to when her parents crashed, because of a Gameboy argument (a legitimate fear I had as a kid) is that this next decision she makes is going to be something drastic: either she partners with Kilgrave or she captures him somehow. Either way, she knows it's going to be something horrible. She has to choose, whether to inflict that pain on herself, or inflict it on Kilgrave. "Nightmare Barbie's Dreamhouse bullshit" "Trippy psycho-drama bullshit" There's the dreamhouse again (which, Simpson almost torched lololololol) "Any guarantee he wouldn't use his powers on me?" "None. But you could change the world." She still doesn't know, but it's amazing how that detail changes the whole discussion. And really, it's Kilgrave manipulating Jessica into believing he still has control over her that's the real villainy going on in these episodes. Like holy poo poo. Everything is so perfectly constructed for that. "BItches, Right?" He cares more about being able to control Jessica than he ever does about "doing good" or "balancing the scales", as evidenced by him ignoring the pleas of Alva and Laurent to close their eyes for a minute. He's an rear end in a top hat boss too basically. He gives them "double their past salaries" and thinks its okay to treat them like poo poo in exchange. Not cool. Also, you get a lot more body language in this show that might go unnoticed just by having the subtitles turned on. "soft chuckling" from Kilgrave after that text.She's starting by trying to get him to be nice to "the help"--a pretense. I like that Jessica's answer to the moral conundrum is "Lock him away, keep him from ever using his rear end in a top hat powers on innocent people ever again. This is how you balance the scales". Oh yeah. Mrs. De Luca was Kilgrave's backup plan. He doesn't want to change, ever. He would only do it to get Jessica under his control, which ix exactly why she needs to contain him if her plan doesn't involve killing him. This was a lot of rambling about a single episode. There's probably some dross in my post, but my tech setup is kinda lovely on my neck right now (don't ask), making commenting and watching difficult. Expect better commentary when I'm not craning my neck underneath my desk to write.
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Dec 1, 2015 05:03
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OH! Another detail! The opening credits, we see "With Carrie Anne Moss" "And David Tennant" I just dig that Trinity gets credited before The Doctor.
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Dec 1, 2015 05:05
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I've seen a lot of people say that this is his most Doctorish role since and I'm not sure what they mean since I never watched Dr Who.
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Dec 1, 2015 05:07
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I think Mike Colter gets 2nd billing as well. Also in regards to Nuke, the doctor implies that the adrenaline pills have been used before on Simpson. Saying the protocol has changed since the last time he was in the program.
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Dec 1, 2015 05:07
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notthegoatseguy posted:I think Mike Colter gets 2nd billing as well. Yeah. Apparently they had an "incident" since Simpson left.
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Dec 1, 2015 05:46
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So here's 100+ posts worth of replies:Snak posted:I guess my point is that "Simpson was ultimately right" is only true if you think the conflict being solved is stopping Kilgrave. Stopping Kilgrave wasn't Jessica's goal until the last few episodes. Jessica's goal was to help his victims.Everything Jessica did was with that goal in mind. Simpson completely ignored that goal. So in a way, Simpson was right that killing Kilgrave would stop him from making more victims, but he literally did not care about his existing victims. Jessica's plan would have helped his existing victims AND prevented him from victimizing more people. I disagree with the bolded part. Jessica's goal was to assuage her own guilt over what Kilgrave did to her. Aside from Hope, his other victims were tools she used to further that goal. The way she used Malcom before AND after she helped him break from Kilgrave's control. The way she used the support group to gain information on Kilgrave. The way she used his parents to expose his powers, even assuming everything went to plan. Her saving of Hope was nothing more than her saving herself, it was a totally selfish act. It's only as time goes on and things go to poo poo that she realizes that working WITH people is better than just using them, and even then she's still a bad and selfish person. This is part of why I liked this show so much. The Sharmat posted:I like how Simpson gets no sympathy for breaking down after being mindraped because he's a dude and the only ones that do sympathize with him miss the whole point of the show. His breakdown is also responsible for his transition from well intentioned mansplainer hero in full on MRA psycho. It was his desire to regain control of his life after Kilgrave so callously used him to attempt to murder an innocent that led to him placing the bomb the ultimately blew him up. Then, he felt his only option was to get back into the Weapon + program (or whatever created the drugs, IGH, I guess). Remember that Simpson bailed from that program before, that Kozlov was surprised that he was contacted again, something about that super soldier program didn't sit right with Simpson in the past, but he still went back because it was the only way to take his life back again. zoux posted:I think actually a lot of the dissatisfaction with the character stems from this, as you want to like him in the beginning, and he's cast as the reasonable, nice standard protag character so it's hard to reconcile with what he becomes. You could write an opposite show that was story beat for beat Jessica Jones but with Simpson struggling against well meaning women that just don't understand what Good Men Have to Do Sometimes casting Simpson as the protagonist, and in fact we're trained to identify with this type of character since he headlines 95% of movies. Also: This.
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Dec 1, 2015 06:12
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I no longer know what the terms MRA, mansplaining, feminist, or SJW mean. They are letters on a screen, their sounds bereft of all meaning.
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Dec 1, 2015 06:17
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Ok, well to take it in a different direction, JJ in contrast to DD is very skeptical about the positive impact of super powered vigilanties among normal humans. Soonmot's comment is right, Jessica is second only to Kilgrave in the swath of destruction she leaves in her quest for revenge/absolution/redemption/whatever. All the other MCU stuff is a 35,000 ft view of collateral damage in the middle of alien invasions or dark elf invasions or robot invasions. JJ is the first MCU property to directly deal with how traumatic this stuff can be to regular people, and it's in NYC in a way that none of the other MCU stuff is. The MTA is a minor villian in the show even!
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Dec 1, 2015 06:26
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The Sharmat posted:I no longer know what the terms MRA, mansplaining, feminist, or SJW mean. They are letters on a screen, their sounds bereft of all meaning. this.
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Dec 1, 2015 06:33
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zoux posted:I've seen a lot of people say that this is his most Doctorish role since and I'm not sure what they mean since I never watched Dr Who. Charasmatic talkative oddball basically. And the way he tilts his head and says "weeeell" is exactly how The Doctor does it
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Dec 1, 2015 08:59
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Lupus Rufus posted:OH! Another detail! The opening credits, we see "With Carrie Anne Moss" "And David Tennant" I just dig that Trinity gets credited before The Doctor. Generally the way credits work is that the "with" actors are listed in such a way that the "and" one is classed as higher billing than the others.
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Dec 1, 2015 11:26
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Mr Beens posted:Generally the way credits work is that the "with" actors are listed in such a way that the "and" one is classed as higher billing than the others. Oh. Well, drats. I wrote up more things for the rest of the season, but still under the same conditions I wrote under for my last post. Maybe I'll post it later after I edit under better conditions. Night time for me.
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Dec 1, 2015 11:44
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I couldn't remember how they handled Jessica's immunity to Killgrave in the comics and if it was worse than just "rando immunity ayyyy" and yeah it was. Jean Grey put a time locked posthypnotic suggestion that the next time Kilgrave tried to control Jessica she would be immune, and also this suggestion made a ghostly vision of Jean Grey appear in Jessica's mind and explain it to her.
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Dec 1, 2015 18:02
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I accidentally read comments on a reddit thread about Jessica Jones. I need to wash my brain.
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Dec 1, 2015 18:25
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BrianWilly posted:I don't think Simpson's dead. I think the government just came and collected him again. I hope so, he's due to have a friggin' epic fight with Daredevil in season 3 or thereabouts.
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Dec 1, 2015 18:43
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Snak posted:I accidentally read comments on a reddit thread about Jessica Jones. I need to wash my brain. Just take the red pill you'll be fine. Only one though. Take more than one and you will dive waaaay too deep.
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Dec 1, 2015 18:45
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McSpanky posted:I hope so, he's due to have a friggin' epic fight with Daredevil in season 3 or thereabouts. Do we know if Kingpin will even be in season 2?
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Dec 1, 2015 20:25
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Comrade Fakename posted:Oh, and to ruin it for everyone else, once you notice how small Luke Cage's ears are you can't unsee them. They arent really small, just extremely flush and streamlined along his skull...like he was made to swim fast
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Dec 1, 2015 20:28
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I want magic red pills that instantly turn me into he-man as soon as I bite down on them.
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Dec 1, 2015 21:31
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We can put PCP into red gelcaps.
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Dec 1, 2015 21:32
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But PCP won't let me throw anyone through a wall.
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Dec 1, 2015 21:33
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ded posted:But PCP won't let me throw anyone through a wall. It might.
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Dec 1, 2015 21:41
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Finally finished the series. Quick thoughts that are undoubtedly totally redundant: The Good - Still super surprised at how good Krysten Ritter's acting was (I remember when she just played a bit part on Veronica Mars) and how much I came to love Trish, who in worse hands could have just been a very irritating blonde Robin to Jessica's Batman. - Similarly: fell in love with the Hogarth plot. There's something delightful about discovering one of the characters is basically a female Kilgrave without powers who went so far as trying to get his powers for herself. Finally seeing her get a taste of those powers herself after viewing them in a purely theoretical sense all season was also quite satisfying. - Kilgrave was the most terrifying villain I've ever seen on TV for the first couple episodes, when we didn't actually see him. He was still awesome for the rest of the series, but Jesus Christ I was jumping out of my seat at every little piece of purple on screen for a while. Having the show set in something like the real world, where no one has any kind of reference point for Kilgrave — unlike in the comic series, where superheroes are all over the freaking place and, ugh, superhero relationship politics get involved — made him doubly freaky. - Simpson being a literal GI Joe who tried to kill Jessica when she kept on not killing Kilgrave his way was the second-most feminist thing I've seen in a while. The cognitive dissonance that came from him, well, looking and talking like a very sexy GI Joe while he went all You're Either With Us Or Against Us was really intriguing. - The most feminist thing was the way this show handled trauma and the way trauma and abuse rippled out to affect people every single time, impacting life after life after life. I've never seen trauma, abuse, and rape handled better or more comprehensively on TV, all without being excessively lurid (to my mind). Extremely impressive. - Great writing for Cage. Actually super excited to see his show now. The Bad - Yet another example of an online show whose devotion to the 13/26 episodes of 25/50 minutes requirement results in plots getting stretched out beyond their welcome. After episode 9 or so my interest started to wane. Kilgrave's habit of just murdering people/threatening innocents also started to get old, you got the feeling the writer's room's supply of creative sadism was running out. - Flat out, the final showdown just wasn't nearly as good as it could have been. Also: 13 episodes and no one thinks to put in headphones until the final one? The Ugly - The support group plot turning into a vengeful mob and the obnoxious red-haired twin girl were hallmarks of amateur hour. Anyway, I read the Alias comic series and (tried) to watch Daredevil and this ended up being miles better than either. Netflix really does deserve props for creating a new generation of multimedia content where people punch each other lots but are mostly broken inside. I approve.
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Dec 1, 2015 23:42
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