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Just looked at the 0.18 plan. That limit break god... I mentioned something like that offhand on the tavern and it got like a bunch of replies and interest, but holy crap, its actually being considered? Even if it doesn't go anywhere I'm stoked.
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Dec 2, 2015 18:13
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Haifisch posted:That's the game where you're not trying to shave a few turns off your turncount for points. Demonic guardian ranges from practically useless to incredibly overpowered depending on when you get it. Level 1 is nice early because summons are always nice, even if just for running away, but it's almost useless past the very early game, because imps are weak. If you get level 2 or 3 early it becomes incredibly powerful, because powerful demons will absolutely destroy everything you come across. On the other hand, my last DS game I got Demonic Guardian 2 while clearing Vaults 5, well after it's most useful period, and I won at XL 26 never having received Demonic Guardian 3. In cases like that, almost any other Tier-2 mutation would be better. Of course, if you're playing something that is going to constantly be damaging your summons, then it's not so great, but demonspawn kind of have to adapt around their mutations.
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Dec 2, 2015 19:08
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The limit break god shouldn't be a god, but rather should be how fighting game special attacks tied to your various weapon skills work.
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Dec 2, 2015 19:09
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Ferrinus posted:The limit break god shouldn't be a god, but rather should be how fighting game special attacks tied to your various weapon skills work. Melee is already pretty powerful, and adding a universal 'special attack' mechanic for weapon attacks would be a lot of clutter. Making special combat maneuvers into a god is a pretty reasonable way to allow those sorts of things as a trade-off.
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Dec 2, 2015 19:26
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Dee Ehm posted:Melee is already pretty powerful, and adding a universal 'special attack' mechanic for weapon attacks would be a lot of clutter. Making special combat maneuvers into a god is a pretty reasonable way to allow those sorts of things as a trade-off. It's pretty powerful, but it's also pretty lame, and mostly involves investing in fighting and a single weapon skill and that's it. Investing in multiple schools of magic lets you use multiple different spells together for a variety of effects, but can you currently imagine someone investing in Long Blades AND Axes AND Polearms in the way that a caster might invest in Conjurations AND Ice AND Translocations? Crawl can already keep track of 'tension' - just have it visibly build up under your mana bar and then you expend it to perform a leap or spin attack or something.
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Dec 2, 2015 19:38
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Ferrinus posted:Crawl can already keep track of 'tension' - just have it visibly build up under your mana bar and then you expend it to perform a leap or spin attack or something. That's what I'm saying. I'm just saying use the meter we already have. Melee is not all a melee character is. Gods, evocables, any other spells they pick up.
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Dec 2, 2015 20:51
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I find the idea that adding something more than tabbing for melee will make melee characters too cluttered silly when spell casters will have like ten to twenty spells for different situations by the end of the game. MiFi isn't exactly on the edge of being too complicated to handle. Edit: counting evocables and aux spells for melee isn't that strong of an argument because those are a wash for the vast majority of characters. Having something like a guaranteed 360 degree swing on axes or a 3 tile lunge for polearms or a feint stab on non-distracted enemies for short blades would be cool and not overpowered of handled right. Locke Dunnegan fucked around with this message at 20:56 on Dec 2, 2015 |
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Dec 2, 2015 20:53
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Dee Ehm posted:That's what I'm saying. I'm just saying use the meter we already have. Melee is not all a melee character is. Gods, evocables, any other spells they pick up. If there was still a generic "fighting" skill and a generic "bump attack delay" skill they could keep being that, but it'd be cool if there was some reason to have like seven different melee skills besides there being seven different kinds of melee weapons.
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Dec 2, 2015 20:58
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Isn't endgame stuff designed to be anti-melee specifically with the intent of crippling melee-only viability? I don't think they're suddenly going to add special abilities (at a great deal of additional work) to spice up melee viability. As someone who plays melee in most games in general though, I do like the idea of it. Even if I'm awful at crawl. 
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Dec 2, 2015 21:26
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Locke Dunnegan posted:I find the idea that adding something more than tabbing for melee will make melee characters too cluttered silly when spell casters will have like ten to twenty spells for different situations by the end of the game. MiFi isn't exactly on the edge of being too complicated to handle. Nothing stops melee characters from using spells, except Trog. What I'm saying moreso is that an entire new global system for weapon techniques or whatever would have major UI and balance consequences, especially if those abilities are tactically powerful. A global system would have to be much weaker than a God allows as well. A super meter god might throw enemies across the screen or perform fatalities that buff his strength or throw hadoukens or whatever you like. That stuff would require completely relooking at game balance and design if anyone has those tools. If it's an option with a trade-off of not worshipping Trog or Makhleb or what have you, then design options are much more open. A system where it just builds up until max and you have one 'special attack' to perform wouldn't be too complicated, it'd be simple and boringly straightforward to execute properly. Attack normally, stop when meter fills, super move. If it is going to be at all robust, this kind of stuff is exactly what the Crawl god system is built for.
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Dec 2, 2015 21:29
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Ferrinus posted:Crawl can already keep track of 'tension' - just have it visibly build up under your mana bar and then you expend it to perform a leap or spin attack or something.
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Dec 2, 2015 22:21
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Dee Ehm posted:Nothing stops melee characters from using spells, except Trog. Good points, but I think there are enough relative power differences between backgrounds and races and gods and such that there is easily enough wiggle room for a fairly simple and straightforward system of mundane, martial abilities. Plus I think it's very lazy design to use the god slot for new proposed systems. Is evocable reach on polearms and innate cleave on axes something that bothers you because it doesn't belong to a Weaponmaster God? Why must melee Demigods get shafted?
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Dec 2, 2015 23:52
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Locke Dunnegan posted:Why must melee Demigods get shafted? That's really more of a Formicid thing, honestly.
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Dec 3, 2015 00:12
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Martial abilities is something I'd assign to equipment/mutations rather than skills. With the way skills work in Crawl, raising a skill alone doesn't actually let you do anything new. You can have 27 in fire magic but it won't matter if you didn't memorize a fire spell to cast. So it'd be weird if weapons suddenly worked differently and you gained the ability to do something just by reaching X in a skill. I thought boots of jumping was a cool addition that was gonna pave the way for more equipment with special abilities. Then it got removed though so I guess not!
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Dec 3, 2015 00:19
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Prism posted:That's really more of a Formicid thing, honestly. It took me too long to realize the obvious just now.
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Dec 3, 2015 01:26
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Zaodai posted:Isn't endgame stuff designed to be anti-melee specifically with the intent of crippling melee-only viability? No.
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Dec 3, 2015 02:15
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It may not have been intentionally been designed that way but it can't be denied that is how it turned out.Torment and smite targeted hellfire are far more dangerous for characters that can't quickly eliminate an enemy using them at a distance. Melee characters generally shrug off ranged attackers by being so tanky/dodgy that they can avoid them, but torment and hellfire are designed to not care about that. Going into extended as a purely melee character is setting yourself up for a painful experience. There's little reason to actually do this though, as the glut of experience extended provides gives you more than enough to train up a ranged backup.
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Dec 3, 2015 02:37
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Internet Kraken posted:It may not have been intentionally been designed that way but it can't be denied that is how it turned out.Torment and smite targeted hellfire are far more dangerous for characters that can't quickly eliminate an enemy using them at a distance. Melee characters generally shrug off ranged attackers by being so tanky/dodgy that they can avoid them, but torment and hellfire are designed to not care about that. Going into extended as a purely melee character is setting yourself up for a painful experience. It's almost impossible not to skill something up, even by accident. Even if you avoid spells entirely, you'll eventually max all your fighting/weapon skill/defenses and be forced to train Invocations/Evocations/ranged weapon skills, just by the sheer factor of having nothing else to do. Now, actually using those ranged skills...
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Dec 3, 2015 03:21
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Whenever I was primarily using melee, I found it the most enjoyable when Zin wasn't nerfed (i.e. you can effectively become immune to hell effects). Recite is a very powerful ranged option to have though. Hopefully hell effect protection can be bumped back up. Also, reminder that without teleport control you'll always do the walk of shame where you get pelted by hell effects that you already bested on the way to a hell lord and their rune.  Random teleports work if you happen to clear the entirety of the branch end too, I guess.
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Dec 3, 2015 03:44
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 Pakellas has landed in trunk! Expect the changes to appear in a few hours.
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Dec 3, 2015 05:09
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Can Of Worms posted:
So what all has changed about Pakellas since his first go at this ages ago? I seem to remember him being Trog with wands; required no spells, gifted you wands, made you earn MP on kills instead of MP regen, and used it to supercharge wands? I didn't even play him though, I just remembered a demo run on the LP forum ages ago.
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Dec 3, 2015 05:42
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The spell conduct got dropped, he gifts you a rod at 4* and then afterwards you get various wands/misc evocables, and the 6* lets you charge a rod to +10 18/18 or a wand to 150% its max charges. Active powers let you recharge wands or rods (but only charges, not increasing max charges) and getting 1-3 enhancers on your evocables. Try surging a sack of spiders at high evocations!
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Dec 3, 2015 05:48
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Can Of Worms posted:The spell conduct got dropped, he gifts you a rod at 4* and then afterwards you get various wands/misc evocables, and the 6* lets you charge a rod to +10 18/18 or a wand to 150% its max charges. Active powers let you recharge wands or rods (but only charges, not increasing max charges) and getting 1-3 enhancers on your evocables. Try surging a sack of spiders at high evocations! You get one random rod and can't get any more? Makes sense, that LP i remember had like, Iron / Clouds / Shadows and just decimated everything in his path. But I pity whoever gets Swarm. Don't sacks of spiders max out at like, redbacks and occasionally wolf spiders? How do the enhancers / spellpower cap or whatever interact? ... do you just get your LoS completely filled with spiders? How nuts is turbocharged disc of storms?
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Dec 3, 2015 06:03
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Dee Ehm posted:You get one random rod and can't get any more? Makes sense, that LP i remember had like, Iron / Clouds / Shadows and just decimated everything in his path. But I pity whoever gets Swarm. he starts gifting rods/evokeables/etc. not just one rod at 4*. unless they changed it really recently
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Dec 3, 2015 06:06
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Dee Ehm posted:You get one random rod and can't get any more? Makes sense, that LP i remember had like, Iron / Clouds / Shadows and just decimated everything in his path. But I pity whoever gets Swarm.
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Dec 3, 2015 06:14
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Can Of Worms posted:The first gift is guaranteed to be a rod, and you can get rods as future gifts. Sacks of spiders can get you emperor scorpions and ghost moths. Evocables were already strong, this sounds silly, I love it.
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Dec 3, 2015 06:29
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So, after not playing since the tournament, I'm actually not getting pissed off about any of the things other players are. i'm fine with painful amulets, no rMut, no cTele, and the weird ranged weapon changes (since I found them aggravating to play with before). What has shocked me in the latest updates (I'm not sure when) is Greater Nagas becoming ungodly inescapable monstrosities - as well as, presumably, any other monsters with teleport other. Blinking is now COMPLETELY useless in the face of these bastards. Every blink will be immediately followed by a ring of nagas teleporting right on your heels to surround you, and instantly constrict you to stop you from getting up the stairs. At this point I'm not sure if it's even POSSIBLE for an evasion-reliant character or caster to clear the snake pit unless you have something that kills all the greater nagas super-fast. Their MR is so ungodly high that scrolls of fear seem worthless as well. Blinks, Fan of Gales, haste - nothing works to get you away from the snake-circle. Not even teleporation is feasible because not even burning through potions or wand charges of heal wounds will keep you alive long enough to get away once they constrict a dodger. Don't casters (especially non-elemental casters) go through enough grief mid-game without this atrocious naga-trap custom tailored to kill them??
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Dec 3, 2015 16:47
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I'm not exactly sure what you mean. Nothing's changed about anything in Snake Pit for months that I know of, and I cleared it as a felid using almost nothing but Icicle. You just have to go slowly and make use of the fact that nagas are slow, which means you can easily drag them to wherever you choose to fight. And it's not GNagas that do the teleport-next-to-you thing, it's guardian serpents casting "blink allies encircling" which dumps a bunch of nearby guys on top of you. So you have to be careful not to engage a guardian serpent when other nagas are around; drag them out of the vault and take them down separately. If you get a full circle of nagas around you you've messed up already. Also be aware that if you get constricted, you can just keep trying to move away (up the stairs for instance) and after 2-3 tries you'll get out and be able to escape. Basically if you're diving into groups of nagas and relying on random blinks to get away then yeah, it's gonna be awful. Guardian Serpents are basically custom made to crush the "I can do whatever I want and just Blink to get away" attitude. So don't do that. You're halfway through the game, you have better things than Blink. megane fucked around with this message at 17:03 on Dec 3, 2015 |
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Dec 3, 2015 16:58
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And if the actual Teleport Other is annoying you(although it's generally not that dangerous outside of Snake 4), you need more MR. This is also the point in the game where you start needing alternate options against enemies that gently caress around with basic escape strategies(walking away, blinking). Basically it's sounding like you're not prepared for midgame, and it caught up with you in Snake. Snake is always going to be worse than usual for EV builds just because of how much constriction there is, but it shouldn't be insurmountable. It's hard to say more than that without seeing your character dump.
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Dec 3, 2015 18:52
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It sounds like he went down a stairs into some sort of snake circle vault thing, i.e. bad luque
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Dec 3, 2015 19:04
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Can Of Worms posted:
As someone currently running a DDFi of Pakellas, it's kind of hilariously overpowered (that might just be because deep dwarves are overpowered as hell to begin with and because combining the best race with a god that rewards training a skill DD want to train anyways and have a +3 apt in). If you want to try winning a Deep Dwarf of Pakellas, here's some advice from when the DDFi still had actual difficulty surviving (i.e. up until a trove gave me a vampiric eveningstar and what healing issues remained went out the door completely). Turns out DDs don't need HP OR MP regen to win games! 0. Quick Charge on the wand of heal wounds for healing. Burn max MP only when absolutely necessary to do so. 1. Train Evocations. The amount of charges you get back from quick charge is dependent on four key factors: the maximum number of charges the wand can hold, the amount of MP being used on Quick Charge, your Evocations skill itself, and the number of charges currently in the wand. Raising Evo also raises max MP, so doing so will improve the results from Quick Charge in two separate ways. Only Quick Charge when your wand is empty or at most 1 charge remaining. 2. Minimize the number of times you use Quick Charge on your heal wounds wand if at all possible so that you don't burn more piety than you gain. You really REALLY want to hit 6* 3. Don't be afraid to use your wands, especially hex wands against low MR enemies; not having to burn identify scrolls to avoid wasting charges is amazingly useful. A good chunk of Lair was dealt with by using wands to deal with big single threats; enslaving a hydra and sending it to tear up a death yak pack is an incredible way to deal with both at once, and paralysis may as well read "target enemy is now completely irrelevant and will die with ease" if it hits. 4. If you're a DD, supercharge the heal wounds wand once you hit 6* and the wand is empty. Seriously, it's disgustingly overpowered. Not only are you getting a huge amount of heal wounds charges by doing so (THIRTEEN HEAL WOUNDS assuming the wand is empty when you supercharge it), but the wand's maximum capacity is also set to 13 charges. That means recharging it (both regular and quick charge) becomes significantly more effective. I've had quick charge take the supercharged heal wounds wand from empty to 7 charges, which is insane considering on a regular heal wounds wand 7 charges is the max you can get from a legit recharge scroll. 5. While channeling is forbidden under Pakellas, consumable sources of MP are still permitted. Potions of magic are good if you're bonedry on MP but REALLY need it topped off now for another Quick Charge. Potions of ambrosia are already godsends for Deep Dwarves to begin with due to the HP recovery, but a lucky ambrosia potion can give back 30+ MP, which is huge. 6. Anything that drains MP is really really bad (eyes of draining, ghost moths, anti-magic branded melee, etc.) If you see one, it might be best to burn your MP off as fast as possible to at least get some use out of it or just device surging a wand/rod to try and blow it to pieces before your MP is bottomed out. 7. Do not focus on evocations to the exclusion of all else; train melee and defenses like a regular DD would alongside Evocations. The guaranteed rod gift is always +0 (9/9) and wand charges aren't unlimited: You are NOT going to win off of the back of Evocations on it's own even if you worship Pakellas; you still need some other form of offense to back up your evocations skill. It'll help a lot, but you can't rely solely on it. 8. Hex wands do not actually scale all that well with Evocations; raising Evo will improve the chances, but anything with 2 pips of MR will still be very difficult to succeed hexing, and anything with 3 pips is basically immune unless you're willing to use a Device Surge or a scroll of vulnerability (or both) While I'm not going to fling myself into extended with this character, one thing I'm curious about is how Device Surge works with non-rod/wand evokables, if it does at all. Imagine a full power Device Surge on something like the lamp of fire. Or the sack of spiders. Or decks. Or god forbid, imagine it working with the Staff of Dispater. That thing already 2-shots Orbs of Fire at 27 Evo, god knows what it will do with the extra boost from tossed into the mix. EDIT: Oh my god I didn't know how much I wanted this until they did it, this is the best change ever: http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commit;h=f87b446f537d61ba902acce9665fb1a922376a72 quote:Mark stone stairs as known if you have seen both ends of them. the Orb of Zot fucked around with this message at 19:11 on Dec 3, 2015 |
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Dec 3, 2015 19:06
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Liberal_L33t posted:So, after not playing since the tournament, I'm actually not getting pissed off about any of the things other players are. i'm fine with painful amulets, no rMut, no cTele, and the weird ranged weapon changes (since I found them aggravating to play with before). The difficulty of Snake seems to depend heavily on playstyle. I find it i as hard as shoals, but other people say it's easy. A big part of dealing with it is recognizing threats and knowing how to handle with them. Greater Nagas aren't all that bad. They deal heavy damage in melee and at range and can haste themselves to pursue you at standard speed, but they're still normal speed bruisers at worst. You have no reason to deal with them more than one at a time unless you screwed up. Their one major trick is that they are magic immune. Hexes won't work on them at all, ever, no matter what, so plan accordingly. The real nasty killers in snake are sharpshooters, shock serpents and guardian serpents. A single shock serpent is a major emergency if you don't have rElec. More than one sharpshooter is the same. Vashnia is a run the gently caress away no matter what sign. If you didn't fight Vashnia, you won against Vashnia; there's almost never any reason to fight her at all. Seeing a guardian serpent means you should break line of sight immediately and retreat to a position where you can handle being surrounded by constricting enemies. If you're playing a weak or weird character that lacks escape, heavy offense and AC, you're in for a really tough time, and you might want to wait to take on snake 4 until you have a way to deal lots of damage very fast (iron shot, iood, a really big weapon, etc.) I really dislike Snake and most of the midgame because it throws a bunch of really annoying encounters that focus on action denial while being the least rewarding part of the game in terms of character growth. Lots of characters hit a serious hump in the mid game and depending on your play style and the character you play, Snake (or, more commonly, Shoals) can exemplify that. But the mid game is still far easier than the early game objectively. It just lulls you into a sense of security and then kills you with sudden bullshit. So learn what the bullshit is and you can circumvent it much more easily than being triple-smited by a surprise orc priest on d: 3.
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Dec 3, 2015 19:14
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Heithinn Grasida posted:If you didn't fight Vashnia, you won against Vashnia; there's almost never any reason to fight her at all. Unacceptable Skulls for the skullthrone E: i like snake but i get spider+shoals 97 % of my games
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Dec 3, 2015 20:05
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the Orb of Zot posted:EDIT: Oh my god I didn't know how much I wanted this until they did it, this is the best change ever: The only downside is not knowing which stairs you've actually taken, but 99% of what that does(making sure you don't go back into danger if multiple upstairs are close to each other) can be replaced by hitting ] or [ on shift-x.
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Dec 3, 2015 20:15
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Heithinn Grasida posted:[Geater nagas'] one major trick is that they are magic immune. Hexes won't work on them at all, ever, no matter what, so plan accordingly. Good snake advice, but this bit is no longer true. I think MR immune creatures now are all more mindless/inorganic? Even greater mummy now has "only" 160 MR.
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Dec 3, 2015 20:22
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Can Of Worms posted:
the Orb of Zot posted:DD of Pakellas stuff.
World Famous W fucked around with this message at 20:30 on Dec 3, 2015 |
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Dec 3, 2015 20:26
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World Famous Whore posted:
This was my Tomb 3 strategy on my 15-rune character who *didn't* have Shatter but did have max Evo. I can't imagine how insane disc must be when surged. It's probably more hilarious without rElec... for certain definitions of hilarity.
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Dec 3, 2015 20:34
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megane posted:I'm not exactly sure what you mean. Nothing's changed about anything in Snake Pit for months that I know of, and I cleared it as a felid using almost nothing but Icicle. You just have to go slowly and make use of the fact that nagas are slow, which means you can easily drag them to wherever you choose to fight. And it's not GNagas that do the teleport-next-to-you thing, it's guardian serpents casting "blink allies encircling" which dumps a bunch of nearby guys on top of you. So you have to be careful not to engage a guardian serpent when other nagas are around; drag them out of the vault and take them down separately. If you get a full circle of nagas around you you've messed up already. Also be aware that if you get constricted, you can just keep trying to move away (up the stairs for instance) and after 2-3 tries you'll get out and be able to escape. Newbie crawl players, heed this poster's words! Woe unto me that I did not! Don't make the same mistakes I did and lose an artifact-rich merfolk due to thinking that your hasted summoned hydras will let you face that snake circle head on! Take that stairway back up while you still can! (also I legitimately did not realize it was the Guardian Serpents who were doing that, not the nagas themselves. I realize now it wasn't a trunk change, I'd just been lucky enough to rarely get snake before and never have to fight three guardian serpents and a bunch of other crap at once.) Heithinn Grasida posted:But the mid game is still far easier than the early game objectively. It just lulls you into a sense of security and then kills you with sudden bullshit. So learn what the bullshit is and you can circumvent it much more easily than being triple-smited by a surprise orc priest on d: 3. Generally good advice, and the quoted bit I almost feel should be in the OP.
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Dec 3, 2015 23:09
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Oh, there is one Snake change I forgot: there's a new Snake end vault (which I had the misfortune to get on that felid, and imagine you probably got too) which has seven fricking guardian serpents in it. Horrifying.
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Dec 3, 2015 23:23
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World Famous Whore posted:
Yeah, if you aren't a DD you'll want to quick charge other things more often since you aren't going to be reliant on the heal wounds HP to recover from damage taken. Anyways, won the DDFi of Pakellas, by the end I had stopped caring about what enemies could do since in between a vampiric eveningstar and a heal wounds wand backed up with all the recharge ever I basically couldn't die. Device surging a spider sack at 27 Evo is absolutely disgusting; I burnt through one of those on Zot:$ and it ate multiple orbs of fire, a curse toe, and a few ancient liches. Turns out orbs of fire aren't that dangerous when surrounded, drained of magic, and confused.
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Dec 4, 2015 00:08
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