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Elendil004 posted:I would love to see what countries use legshots as a policy and where it works. All of scandinavia, Germany, Austria, Switzerland, Czech Republic. News stories are easy enough to find via google.
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Dec 5, 2015 13:24
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This is like, the exact situation where shooting to wound could have worked. Or you know, since the suspect was already limping and in pain why not return to the beanbag rounds. Why are US police trusted with guns if they can't be trusted to not explicitly murder someone with Tasers?
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Dec 5, 2015 13:32
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PostNouveau posted:An interesting article on California rethinking its rules on whether children can waive their right to remain silent. quote:Kent Scheidegger, legal director of the pro-death penalty Criminal Justice Legal Foundation, said he would like Miranda rights to be eliminated and all interrogations videotaped. He called the brain research about adolescents' legal culpability "a bunch of hooey." "I lust for child death" - an actual loving lawyer person who is still allowed to practice law. Jesus, what the gently caress is wrong with your country. This poo poo is just comically evil - there's a ten year old convicted of murder for killing a man who threatened to kill him and his family, after beating him for years.
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Dec 5, 2015 13:36
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As a personal anecdote, in Finnish mandatory armed service (military police branch), if in a situation where usage of immediate lethal force was not necessary, yet all other options were either exhausted or not available, I was trained to go for a leg shot. With an assault rifle chambered with a 7.62x39 cartridge. Also, if shooting to wound is stupid, how about warning shots, a thing in Europe but also a thing I don't think I've ever seen in these American police videos. If firing a warning shot doesn't involve a risk (people in the background, background wall/etc could be penetrated by the shot), could that be used to decrease the amount of people killed by the US police? It might just be enough to really drive the point home that if you do not comply, you're going to get hurt. e; I think the police in the knifeman video may have fired a warning shot, now that I rewatched it. edit: Illegal Username posted:This is like, the exact situation where shooting to wound could have worked. Or you know, since the suspect was already limping and in pain why not return to the beanbag rounds. Trogdos! fucked around with this message at 14:01 on Dec 5, 2015 |
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Dec 5, 2015 13:36
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Kent Scheidegger is a literal '80s movie villain. He is so comically evil I'm surprised he is even real and not being shoved into his Nazi plane's jet engine by Harrison Ford or Arnold Swartzenager. The fact that he has more clout that your average person is depressing.
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Dec 5, 2015 15:45
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Dead Reckoning posted:I don't understand your logic here. If the police are in a situation which justifies in using deadly force to stop a suspect or defend themselves, then it's by definition acceptable if the suspect dies. If the police aren't justified in shooting someone twenty times, they aren't justified in shooting them once. That doesn't mean that they can't use tactics that reduce the odds of the suspect dying. One shot at at time in that situation still stops him, but increases the likelihood that paramedics (who are already on the way because of the stabbing, right?) could get him to the hospital in time. e: It's one thing to acknowledge that a death is an acceptable outcome, it's another thing entirely to immediately employ the force to make that a certainty. AreWeDrunkYet fucked around with this message at 16:42 on Dec 5, 2015 |
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Dec 5, 2015 16:38
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"I am reluctant to draw bright lines on age because people mature at different rates and people become street smart at different rates," Jared Fogel said.
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Dec 5, 2015 18:20
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Dead Reckoning posted:I feel like, if the police have surrounded you, pepper sprayed you, shot you with beanbags, and yelled at you to drop the weapon or they will fire, you've had a lot of chances to give up peaceably at that point. "Look, we've aggravated and injured this mentally ill man to try and force him to sit down and let us grab him. What more do you want?"
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Dec 5, 2015 18:55
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chitoryu12 posted:"Look, we've aggravated and injured this mentally ill man to try and force him to sit down and let us grab him. What more do you want?" "We have used our token efforts available to temporarily incapacitate but they irrationally refuse to calmly surrender in a timely, graceful manner. Ventilating his organs is our only option." Berk Berkly fucked around with this message at 20:28 on Dec 5, 2015 |
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Dec 5, 2015 20:23
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I don't get the cowardice. I'd have felt perfectly comfortable disarming that guy with a baton. Well not perfectly comfortable, but more comfortable than taking the life of a man who appeared 99% unlikely to commit further assaults.
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Dec 5, 2015 20:27
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hey who wants to see a video of some guy getting murdered by the police this morning in Miami?
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Dec 5, 2015 20:39
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WhiskeyJuvenile posted:hey who wants to see a video of some guy getting murdered by the police this morning in Miami? The gently caress?! He's not even aggressively posturing, he just slowly put his hand on the car 
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Dec 5, 2015 20:43
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botany posted:The gently caress?! He's not even aggressively posturing, he just slowly put his hand on the car He still had a hand on the car when they shot him. Yes sadly, as this thread shows, I would be shocked if the internal investigation didn't show that the officer was really scared and thus it was a good execution.
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Dec 5, 2015 20:50
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i just hope somehow this winds up loving up art basel this weekend more than the rain
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Dec 5, 2015 21:02
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WhiskeyJuvenile posted:hey who wants to see a video of some guy getting murdered by the police this morning in Miami? Now this, not a good shoot. Did the women fire first? I can hear a single pop that sounds like a handgun going off right before the rifle fire.
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Dec 5, 2015 21:02
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Illegal Username posted:This is like, the exact situation where shooting to wound could have worked. Or you know, since the suspect was already limping and in pain why not return to the beanbag rounds. putting a bullet in the guy's leg would still have been insane over the top brutality, in this situation
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Dec 5, 2015 21:06
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Jarmak posted:Now this, not a good shoot. You're surprisingly quick to make this call. What is different? His entire body is obscured by the woman cop right before he is shot. How do you know he didn't make a lunge?
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Dec 5, 2015 21:08
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Jarmak posted:Now this, not a good shoot. That pop seems too quiet compared to the rifle round. A 5.56mm shouldn't be orders of magnitude louder than a 9mm from such a close distance. She also doesn't move even a little from recoil, none of the other officers seem to react, and there's no smoke or visible casing. I'm guessing it was something other than a gunshot. Also, why the hell did the cop feel the need to shoot again as he was falling? Even assuming this was a good shoot (which it definitely wasn't), he's already on the ground and apparently incapacitated. You're supposed to stop shooting then. An extra round would serve as nothing except extra insurance that he's dead.
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Dec 5, 2015 22:16
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Samog posted:putting a bullet in the guy's leg would still have been insane over the top brutality, in this situation at least he might not be dead
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Dec 5, 2015 22:19
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chitoryu12 posted:That pop seems too quiet compared to the rifle round. A 5.56mm shouldn't be orders of magnitude louder than a 9mm from such a close distance. She also doesn't move even a little from recoil, none of the other officers seem to react, and there's no smoke or visible casing. I'm guessing it was something other than a gunshot. It's very easy to touch off a second round from an AR by accident, especially if you are terrified that the shirtless man in front of you is going to do a forward somersault and behead you.
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Dec 5, 2015 22:24
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SedanChair posted:You're surprisingly quick to make this call. What is different? His entire body is obscured by the woman cop right before he is shot. How do you know he didn't make a lunge? He's got his hand on the cruiser and he's standing flat footed when he becomes obscured, his hand remains visible and doesn't move in way that suggests he changes his position between him becoming obscured and becoming shot. Its not conclusive, so I suppose there's a slight chance that the body cam footage could come out and prove that this was just a really bad camera angle, but I doubt it. chitoryu12 posted:That pop seems too quiet compared to the rifle round. A 5.56mm shouldn't be orders of magnitude louder than a 9mm from such a close distance. She also doesn't move even a little from recoil, none of the other officers seem to react, and there's no smoke or visible casing. I'm guessing it was something other than a gunshot. Yeah that's a good point when I watched it again with headphones its really obviously not a 9mm unless there's something very odd going on with the audio. Honestly the only "good" thing I saw was the fact he fired a controlled pair and then reassessed the situation instead of mag dumping like every other cop shooting video. We can argue the minutiae about whether it should be a single or a pair of shots before reassessment but controlled pair is an extremely common standard because of the likelihood of a single round not stopping a threat and I feel in the grand scheme of things it would be stupid to derail the thread arguing of such a granular detail of the least objectionable part of that video.
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Dec 5, 2015 22:34
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SedanChair posted:You're surprisingly quick to make this call. What is different? His entire body is obscured by the woman cop right before he is shot. How do you know he didn't make a lunge? (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Dec 5, 2015 22:42
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Jarmak posted:Honestly the only "good" thing I saw was the fact he fired a controlled pair and then reassessed the situation instead of mag dumping like every other cop shooting video. We can argue the minutiae about whether it should be a single or a pair of shots before reassessment but controlled pair is an extremely common standard because of the likelihood of a single round not stopping a threat and I feel in the grand scheme of things it would be stupid to derail the thread arguing of such a granular detail of the least objectionable part of that video. Every time I've seen controlled pairs of shots being fired, it was a very fast one-two to guarantee that the guy drops. With this he's already got the guy falling and his body's practically hitting the ground when the second shot is fired. It feels a lot more deliberate.
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Dec 5, 2015 23:11
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Here's a much better view. The guy points with the hand with a razor but no lunging or anything like that. He's not even looking in the direction he's pointing. It looks like one officer decided to tase and the other saw the taser movement/convulsion and fired.
Terraplane fucked around with this message at 01:32 on Dec 6, 2015 |
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Dec 6, 2015 01:28
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Terraplane posted:Here's a much better view. The guy points with the hand with a razor but no lunging or anything like that. He's not even looking in the direction he's pointing. It looks like one officer decided to tase and the other saw the taser movement/convulsion and fired. Yeah they're straight up shooting him in the middle of a conversation, this is loving awful
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Dec 6, 2015 01:38
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Terraplane posted:Here's a much better view. The guy points with the hand with a razor but no lunging or anything like that. He's not even looking in the direction he's pointing. It looks like one officer decided to tase and the other saw the taser movement/convulsion and fired. That explains the pop. I was initially going to say that it sounded like a taser firing, but I couldn't see the convulsion really well or any wires and didn't feel confident suggesting it. It's also pretty clear that the guy with the rifle was standing with his finger on the trigger. Unless he's just a bloodthirsty psychopath, my guess is that he was jumpy as hell and upon seeing any kind of fast movement he instinctively pulled the trigger. This makes it worse for him, as now it could be argued that he was now shooting someone who was already incapacitated.
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Dec 6, 2015 01:42
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Isn't the guy with the tazer supposed to yell "tazer tazer tazer!" or something, like in those training videos where cops tazer each other? So the tazer noise spooked the cop with the gun because he wasn't expecting it, excellent use of non-lethal weaponry. 95% sure no one gets punished for this, he'll just say he reacted to a loud noise and sudden movement.
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Dec 6, 2015 02:01
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chitoryu12 posted:Every time I've seen controlled pairs of shots being fired, it was a very fast one-two to guarantee that the guy drops. With this he's already got the guy falling and his body's practically hitting the ground when the second shot is fired. It feels a lot more deliberate. It's possible, I was assuming he was just sucking at doing controlled pairs and it took him a long time to get his second shot out. If he actually reassessed then decided to put another sounds in then yeah gently caress him.
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Dec 6, 2015 03:22
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Dem leg shoootzzz https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=nDJ1MmyDNfs
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Dec 6, 2015 05:00
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Radish posted:I could understand "those cops just got lucky" if that UK example was an isolated event but the US police have a huge body count that no other first world country has so the idea that everyone else is doing it wrong but with somehow far better results for both police and suspects is ludicrous. Weird how this really good point of yours went totally unaddressed. Jarmak posted:That UK video is ridiculous, the cops have absolutely zero control of that situation and likely the only reason none of the cops got hosed up was the guy with the machete is too fat and slow to catch any of the cops he's chasing. Jarmak posted:I don't think the police should have to put themselves in life threatening situations in order to preserve the life of the person who's threatening it I love how the UK cops are simultaneously incompetent bungling pansies yet also are able to meet and beat impossible life-threatening odds that no mortal American cop should ever dare. And thus, by a continual shifting of rhetorical focus blah blah blah, police in other countries are too pathetically laughable to learn from, while their deeds are superhuman accomplishments that American cops would die trying to emulate VitalSigns fucked around with this message at 05:49 on Dec 6, 2015 |
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Dec 6, 2015 05:43
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VitalSigns posted:Weird how this really good point of yours went totally unaddressed. Trigger-happy American cops are pants-making GBS threads pussies compared to those guys in the UK video. Those dudes might actually have a valid claim to that whole heroic 'putting life on line in duty' sentiment their Ameribros believe they are entitled to. Vahakyla posted:Dem leg shoootzzz I was almost certain this was gonna turn out completely differently. I thought it would reveal they had accidentally shot him in the head and killed him. What a clutch shot. Berk Berkly fucked around with this message at 05:55 on Dec 6, 2015 |
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Dec 6, 2015 05:50
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In London a radicalized muslim stabbed three people, shouting about revenge for Syria. Police arrived, told him to drop the knife. He didn't, instead lunged at the cops. They tasered him twice, he's in custody. Nobody died, no shots were fired.
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Dec 6, 2015 14:18
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botany posted:In London a radicalized muslim stabbed three people, shouting about revenge for Syria. Police arrived, told him to drop the knife. He didn't, instead lunged at the cops. They tasered him twice, he's in custody. Nobody died, no shots were fired. To clarify, that's no deaths at all, whether the perp, his victims, or the police who arrested him. The whole thing played out like a great big advert for gun control. They even had a firearms unit roll up and were like 'nope, don't need you guys'.
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Dec 6, 2015 14:57
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Vahakyla posted:Dem leg shoootzzz I don't get it, the guy is still alive at the end. An obvious gently caress up, leg shots don't work.
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Dec 6, 2015 15:05
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One thing important to mention is that the leg shot in that case was done with an MP5. Longarms are much, much easier to use for difficult shots like that because of their longer sight radius (the closer the front and rear sight are to each other, the harder it is to accurately gauge whether you've got them lined up properly beyond very close range), lower felt recoil due to the weight of the gun and the in-line stock (the recoil mostly goes straight back, whereas a pistol will flip up as well), and the ease with which they can be steadied on a surface to remove natural hand motions that cause your gun to sway and shake. He also had the advantage that the suspect was barely moving. I think everyone who's a proponent of leg shots should really go out and get some real hands-on time with weapons to see how it works for themselves. poo poo, get some airsoft pistols and some friends and set up scenarios where you get to try shooting each other's kneecaps as the other person moves around. What you'll probably find is that it's really easy at extremely close range, but getting farther away means more missed shots that are liable to ricochet when they hit the ground at an angle. Legs are small targets that don't really stay still.
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Dec 6, 2015 17:32
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My biggest problem with leg shots is they don't replaced shooting to kill, they replace using less lethal. You're going to see more police shootings, not less, if you introduce them into American policing.
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Dec 6, 2015 17:49
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chitoryu12 posted:One thing important to mention is that the leg shot in that case was done with an MP5. Longarms are much, much easier to use for difficult shots like that because of their longer sight radius (the closer the front and rear sight are to each other, the harder it is to accurately gauge whether you've got them lined up properly beyond very close range), lower felt recoil due to the weight of the gun and the in-line stock (the recoil mostly goes straight back, whereas a pistol will flip up as well), and the ease with which they can be steadied on a surface to remove natural hand motions that cause your gun to sway and shake. He also had the advantage that the suspect was barely moving. Jarmak posted:My biggest problem with leg shots is they don't replaced shooting to kill, they replace using less lethal. Nobody is claiming that introducing leg shots will solve all problems by itself. American police training needs to be reformed from the bottom up. Introducing the concept of shooting NOT to kill is part of that, but obviously needs to be integrated into the whole training concept.
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Dec 6, 2015 18:49
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botany posted:Nobody is claiming that introducing leg shots will solve all problems by itself. American police training needs to be reformed from the bottom up. Introducing the concept of shooting NOT to kill is part of that, but obviously needs to be integrated into the whole training concept. But that would involve heroic American bad asses taking advice from a bunch of idiot eurofag pansies who know nothing of proper police work or the life-threatening trials and tribulations our brave peace commandos face every minute! 
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Dec 6, 2015 19:02
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botany posted:Leg shots are part of the official policy of many police departments around the world, and are regularly with success. That's literally an empirical truth. Your or my experience on the range has zero impact on this fact. It's completely besides the point. People who are "successfully" shot in the leg should never have been shot to begin with. Except maybe people threatening suicide, I've seen a few videos of marksman wounding people with guns to their own heads, because in that case they are an imminent danger that leaves no time for less lethal... its just to themselves.
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Dec 6, 2015 19:03
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chitoryu12 posted:What you'll probably find is that it's really easy at extremely close range, When you say close range do you mean Travon Martin close, Tamir Rice close or Walter Scott close?
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Dec 6, 2015 19:34
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